UK General Election 2017 Thread

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:03 am

CONTINUE

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Post by Scottrf on Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:44 am

So when exactly do you discuss these issues? The election is this week and it's been too close to a terrorist attack to discuss for a while now (years really but weeks for the ones that matter to the electorate).

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:45 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Global crash - f*** Labour. Why didn't they tell the Americans too. They must have known it was happening. Snide red b*stards

picard You're better than that. I didn't say it was Labour did I? What I implied was they oversaw the economy for ~12 years, p!ssed away money (like I have no doubt any other party would have done) and didn't take any notice of what I'm sure were enough warnings about property bubbles etc. What I was implying is that the sort of thing Pr4wn's banging on about is not entirely down to the Tories. Still, easier to reduce it to Labour = good; Tories = evil I guess.

'Twas hyperbole for effect, but the point was worth having clear because Labour did get tarred with it by many; there was blame thrown at them that really didn't have any place being so easily cast onto them.
That's certainly true.
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Post by GSC on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:08 am

Scottrf wrote:So when exactly do you discuss these issues? The election is this week and it's been too close to a terrorist attack to discuss for a while now (years really but weeks for the ones that matter to the electorate).

Political point scoring the day after a tragedy is a little bit too much imo
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Post by Scottrf on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:16 am

GSC wrote:
Scottrf wrote:So when exactly do you discuss these issues? The election is this week and it's been too close to a terrorist attack to discuss for a while now (years really but weeks for the ones that matter to the electorate).

Political point scoring the day after a tragedy is a little bit too much imo

And someone else might think two days. Another a week. There's only 3 days left. And it's the second time the election has been paused in two weeks.

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Post by GSC on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:45 am

Sure.

But to me personally, using a tragedy to win some political points less than 24 hours after it happened is a bit too soon.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:47 am

Interesting that Corbyn can't but May can?

Conservatives went lowball and got beat...

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Post by GSC on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:53 am

Whoever does it, including Farron and Nuttall. There was supposed to be a reason campaigns were suspended out of respect.
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Post by Samo on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:55 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Interesting that Corbyn can't but May can?

Conservatives went lowball and got beat...

Pretty sure it was May who started it aswell. Her speech started as a message of condolence and strength but quickly became a point scoring chance.

Good thing people are wising up to her role in all of this.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:02 am

There's a certain difference probably for all parties in reaction to this and reaction to Manchester. Now it feels like something we are worried we are going to have to live with regularly, maybe the first one felt a little more like it may have been standalone and very unique.

With that in mind, it is more stark with how we stop incidents, and people are more scared for their own safety, probably angry that it is happening.

The interview with the Policeman on sky news will have brought t into focus too.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:07 am

There's a difference between saying enough is enough and making an insinuation that the Tories are to blame for what happened.

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Post by GSC on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:11 am

The concert worries me far more that someone could get an explosive device.

Not sure how we can realistically pre empt some guys from hiring a van, running some people down and stabbing others.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:16 am

This Romanian baker who tried to fight off the attackers in Borough Market is an absolute hero.

Somewhat related, suspected terror attack in Australia.

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Post by Pal Joey on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 am

Details still sketchy... it could just be a domestic dispute but we'll soon know more.

edit: No you are right Ziggy. "Channel Seven said it received a call during the siege from a man, who said "This is for IS, this is for al-Qaeda".

Happy voting on Thursday everyone. Just follow your heart... and head... and do what you think is best for your country. OK


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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:22 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:This Romanian baker who tried to fight off the attackers in Borough Market is an absolute hero.

Somewhat related, suspected terror attack in Australia.

Agreed, there was also the off duty policeman and the journalist who attempted to tackle them to ground and got stabbed for their troubles, some truly amazing people out there.

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Post by Scottrf on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:23 am

GSC wrote:The concert worries me far more that someone could get an explosive device.

Not sure how we can realistically pre empt some guys from hiring a van, running some people down and stabbing others.

Not really, there's other things you can do.

1. Deport people with dual citizenship who are on the watch list.
1a. Frees resources to watch the others on the list.
2. Block return entry for people going for all inclusive holidays to Libya/Syria etc.
3. Reverse cuts on police forces.
4. Better follow up of reports into the anti terrorism units.
5. Pressure on social media companies to share information.
6. Stop supplying arms to the Saudis.
7. Counter the ideology at home and abroad.
8. Better foreign policy - more focus on endgame if we are actually going to get involved in toppling leaders.
9. Remove tax exempt status from religious organisations and use that money to counter terrorism.

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Post by GSC on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:26 am

Someone get that list to the Donald asap.

Isis will be crushed by dinner.
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Post by Scottrf on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:27 am

GSC wrote:Someone get that list to the Donald asap.

Isis will be crushed by dinner.

We can try vigils and a minutes silence instead but that doesn't seem to be working.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:29 am

I full heartedly agree with number 9.

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Post by Samo on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:10 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I full heartedly agree with number 9.

Thats you and Piers Morgan I've agreed with today. BRB checking for raining fire.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:22 pm

Libya is a beautiful country.............I know people who have been..

If someone wants to visit friends he should be allowed to....

Hardly works in with number 7...Discrimination and restriction...

1 is illegal..........

1a Isn't specific enough..

6. If we don't sell to them others will....So it is self defeating.

8. I don't know what better focus on endgame means.....unless it is a reflection on Iraq..

9. Will never happen in a million years.

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Post by Scottrf on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:26 pm

1. For now.
1a. What more do you need? I think you misunderstood it maybe. If you deport you can stop watching them and watch someone else instead.
6. If we don't support terrorism somebody else will is a poor argument.
8. That's fine, neither does the government apparently. Objectives for the type of governance and state of the country you want after you withdraw.
9. I know.

Anyway that was a few minutes of thought and way more than May's 4 point plan which were basically duplicates.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:33 pm

1. Why would a Country want to accept a potential terrorist back if they are living in Britain legally ??

6. We are selling to the Saudi Arabia Government........Not to terrorists......Last I heard they weren't advocating ISIS membership or atrocity.

1a Free resources..........I'd have to know where they were being freed from ??.....Not enough police on the streets as it is......Happy to pay for more security but I don't want other understaffed departments to suffer..


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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:34 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Good..brave people died or got hurt last night and already it is...

20,000 police were cut under May   or   We have had enough now and are going for these people..

Really ??...Both parties should be ashamed of themselves.. ..

Show some class.


Corbyn jumping on it for political gain shows what kind of person he is.

Oh please. Is it only Corbyn doing this? You must read a very limited selection of the media. More to the point, Conservative MPs are lining up to throw mud at Corbyn based on misrepresented quotes and speculation. Corbyn, on the other hand has pointed out what Theresa May actually did as Home Secretary.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:38 pm

Yet another one eyed Labour voter I see.

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Post by Scottrf on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:42 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:1. Why would a Country want to accept a potential terrorist back if they are living in Britain legally ??

6. We are selling to the Saudi Arabia Government........Not to terrorists......Last I heard they weren't advocating ISIS membership or atrocity.

1a Free resources..........I'd have to know where they were being freed from ??.....Not enough police on the streets as it is......Happy to pay for more security but I don't want other understaffed departments to suffer..
1. Because they have citizenship and they would have to. We can remove their citizenship.

6. Very much split. To act like Saudi Arabia, even their ruling elite has a single view on ISIS and Wahabbist teachings would be disingenuous or at least simplistic. ISIS expanded from Saudi interference in the Syrian insurgency and the 'moderates' we armed.

1a. I already said where from. Scroll up.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:44 pm

1. Laugh

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Post by Scottrf on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:46 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:1.  Laugh

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/aug/15/home-office-law-dual-citizenship

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:48 pm

Scottrf wrote:
GSC wrote:The concert worries me far more that someone could get an explosive device.

Not sure how we can realistically pre empt some guys from hiring a van, running some people down and stabbing others.

Not really, there's other things you can do.

1. Deport people with dual citizenship who are on the watch list.
1a. Frees resources to watch the others on the list.
2. Block return entry for people going for all inclusive holidays to Libya/Syria etc.
3. Reverse cuts on police forces.
4. Better follow up of reports into the anti terrorism units.
5. Pressure on social media companies to share information.
6. Stop supplying arms to the Saudis.
7. Counter the ideology at home and abroad.
8. Better foreign policy - more focus on endgame if we are actually going to get involved in toppling leaders.
9. Remove tax exempt status from religious organisations and use that money to counter terrorism.

1. Pretty dodgy. You can't deport British nationals; you'd have to strip them of nationality. In order to do that, it would need to be for something more than thought crime. You'd need to have something solid to charge them with.
2. What about British nationals with relatives in those countries?
3. Agreed, but won't happen under a Conservative government given it was May who cut police numbers in the first place.
4. ...requires 3. to happen.
5. Already happens. The extent of sharing isn't known, for good reason. Regardless, there are now plenty of secure/ encrypted methods terrorists could use which would make intelligence sharing moot.
6. Agreed. Though I wonder to what extent the sales provide leverage to share intelligence. It doesn't seem a coincidence that shortly after we've done a deal with Saudi they denounce Qatar.
7. Already happens. There are specialist units that do exactly that both at home and overseas. They aren't widely publicised for obvious reasons. There's probably a saturation point for things like this - too much and it becomes obvious propaganda.
8. Again, agreed. It should be noted that regime change as a political objective is illegal. However, there's a lot of twitter chat comparing terror incidents in multi- vs mono- cultural societies. It ignores that most of the mono-cultural societies used for comparison also have far less interventionist foreign policy.
9. I'd be in two minds. Most funding of terrorism comes from overseas. Also, a lot of counter-terrorism is surely reliant on the goodwill of the muslim community. That would be hit by a tax on religion.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:49 pm

Guy comes to Britain gets citizenship becomes radicalised...........We say oh well you can have him back...

Simplistic...

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:51 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So a guy leaves a note as a joke and that's it.

Black Wednesday anyone ??
Headscratch

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Global crash - f*** Labour. Why didn't they tell the Americans too. They must have known it was happening. Snide red b*stards
picard You're better than that. I didn't say it was Labour did I? What I implied was they oversaw the economy for ~12 years, p!ssed away money (like I have no doubt any other party would have done) and didn't take any notice of what I'm sure were enough warnings about property bubbles etc. What I was implying is that the sort of thing Pr4wn's banging on about is not entirely down to the Tories. Still, easier to reduce it to Labour = good; Tories = evil I guess.

I'm not sure what your point is, here. The global economy crashed, nobody saw it coming (but apparently Labour should have seen it coming?), some former minster wrote a note as a joke, then the Tories demolished the disable benefits system but it's not their fault?

Looks like, in accusing me of trying to use a bogeyman, you're trying to find anyone but the Tories to blame. Even going as far as ridiculous dredging up Labour from 2008.

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Post by Scottrf on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:58 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:1. Pretty dodgy. You can't deport British nationals; you'd have to strip them of nationality. In order to do that, it would need to be for something more than thought crime. You'd need to have something solid to charge them with.
2. What about British nationals with relatives in those countries?

Obviously I realise that there are complications. It's easier to criticise ideas than provide them.

1. I know, and it happens and has been supported by the European court of human rights. It's happened 33 times since 2010. We can do it more extensively. Obviously I'm not privy to exact details of watch lists but the shortlist isn't just thought crimes, the list based on people with sympathies towards the ideologies numbers into the tens of thousands.

2. Of course I wasn't being fully serious but it happens and there should surely be more scope for being tougher with it.

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Post by Scottrf on Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:00 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Guy comes to Britain gets citizenship becomes radicalised...........We say oh well you can have him back...

Simplistic...

Like the man who lived in the UK for 10 years and grew up in Britain, took citizenship, and was stripped of his passport while in Sudan?

You should really do some research.


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Post by Crimey on Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:00 pm

6. Agreed. Though I wonder to what extent the sales provide leverage to share intelligence. It doesn't seem a coincidence that shortly after we've done a deal with Saudi they denounce Qatar.

Unfortunately, that is true. The UK and other countries sell arms to Saudi Arabia because it means they have at least one ally in the Middle East. The problem is that Saudis are taking the mick and those weapons are ending up in the hands of ISIS and the like and strengthening their position.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Labour insider reckons they will only win 180 seats............that would be a 100+ landslide..

I remain slightly more optimistic for them..


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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:10 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Labour insider reckons they will only win 180 seats............that would be a 100+ landslide..

I remain slightly more optimistic for them..


Too much emphasis has been placed on the YouGov polls which seem quite flawed, ComRes and a few others have shown a widening Tory lead which has been barely reported on.

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:58 pm

GSC wrote:Whoever does it, including Farron and Nuttall. There was supposed to be a reason campaigns were suspended out of respect.

Yes, and the remarks were made after that suspension ended.

Personally, I think the victims deserved better than the deep funding cuts to policing that the Tories have made, but that's just me.

Police federations, former officers and former chiefs have all lamented the end of community policing as a result of the Tory cuts. They've also warned that these cuts and the end of community policing places the public at a greater risk of attacks such as the ones the UK has suffered over the last few weeks and months.

Far from disrespecting the victims, Corbyn is trying to make sure something good comes from all of this horror. Doing nothing would be disrespectful.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:05 pm

To be honest the cuts are blamed but more police on the streets doesn't prevent them, it's a supposedly easy fix that would achieve nothing.

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:12 pm

That's pure horse droppings and you know it. You really think that community policing wouldn't help detect attackers like this?

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Post by GSC on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:13 pm

Are armed police now a good thing?
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:14 pm

That's not true in the slightest is it, do explain how community policing would stop a man hiring a van and ploughing into pedestrians.

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:15 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Labour insider reckons they will only win 180 seats............that would be a 100+ landslide..

I remain slightly more optimistic for them..


Too much emphasis has been placed on the YouGov polls which seem quite flawed, ComRes and a few others have shown a widening Tory lead which has been barely reported on.

I don't know about flawed, but YouGov are certainly using a different methodology from the other pollsters. At the very least, it's very interesting.

ComRes' results don't show a widening gap, though they do have the Tories furthest in front. ComRes were the most accurate pollster for the 2015 election, though that election was an odd one for the polls, and the other polling companies have tweaked their methodologies. There's nothing to say ComRes will be more accurate in 2017. That said, the opposition usually experiences a bounce in the polls in the weeks before the election. I'd suspect that may be the case here.

What is most interesting is the collapse in UKIP and Lib Dem support. What happens to these voters? Currently, they seem to be moving towards Labour. I'd suspect that may change in the election though. I'd reckon a fair chunk of previous UKIP voters may simply not vote at all.

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Post by Scottrf on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:15 pm

Conservatives are aiming to bring armed police to 2010 levels by 2020.

The problem is it's much easier to decrease than increase numbers. There aren't the numbers of police to draw armed police from.

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:26 pm

Scottrf wrote:
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:1. Pretty dodgy. You can't deport British nationals; you'd have to strip them of nationality. In order to do that, it would need to be for something more than thought crime. You'd need to have something solid to charge them with.
2. What about British nationals with relatives in those countries?

Obviously I realise that there are complications. It's easier to criticise ideas than provide them.

1. I know, and it happens and has been supported by the European court of human rights. It's happened 33 times since 2010. We can do it more extensively.  Obviously I'm not privy to exact details of watch lists but the shortlist isn't just thought crimes, the list based on people with sympathies towards the ideologies numbers into the tens of thousands.

2. Of course I wasn't being fully serious but it happens and there should surely be more scope for being tougher with it.

I completely agree, and my post wasn't intended to be entirely critical. I was mostly making the point that for most of your points, these things are already being done to a greater or lesser extent. To increase the extent to which they happen requires money. Therefore, to my eyes, your points can be condensed into two things: 1) Most funding for the police and security services; 2) less interventionist foreign policy.

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:27 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That's not true in the slightest is it, do explain how community policing would stop a man hiring a van and ploughing into pedestrians.

A bit simplistic, don't you think. Didn't think I'd have to go back to basics but it seems you're unaware of what community policing actually is.

They'd work within communities, particularly the Muslim community in this instance, get to know residents of their patch, community leaders, Imams etc. Not every suspicion gets reported directly to police. Community officers obtain local knowledge that no other intelligence agency can.

No offense, HH, but I'll take the opinion of seasoned police officers and chiefs over yours.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:29 pm

Scottrf wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:1. Why would a Country want to accept a potential terrorist back if they are living in Britain legally ??

6. We are selling to the Saudi Arabia Government........Not to terrorists......Last I heard they weren't advocating ISIS membership or atrocity.

1a Free resources..........I'd have to know where they were being freed from ??.....Not enough police on the streets as it is......Happy to pay for more security but I don't want other understaffed departments to suffer..
1. Because they have citizenship and they would have to. We can remove their citizenship.

6. Very much split. To act like Saudi Arabia, even their ruling elite has a single view on ISIS and Wahabbist teachings would be disingenuous or at least simplistic. ISIS expanded from Saudi interference in the Syrian insurgency and the 'moderates' we armed.

1a. I already said where from. Scroll up.

As an example of Case 1 actually happening, Australia routinely deports people with dual nationality at the end of their prison sentences if they're convicted of serious crimes. Or interns them in camps on Christmas Island with all of the boat people who're trying to migrate to Aus illegally
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:29 pm

More funding and more officers in general would probably make funding more armed police a bit easier.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:29 pm

GSC wrote:Are armed police now a good thing?

Certainly are when you need them.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:33 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:That's not true in the slightest is it, do explain how community policing would stop a man hiring a van and ploughing into pedestrians.

A bit simplistic, don't you think. Didn't think I'd have to go back to basics but it seems you're unaware of what community policing actually is.

They'd work within communities, particularly the Muslim community in this instance, get to know residents of their patch, community leaders, Imams etc. Not every suspicion gets reported directly to police. Community officers obtain local knowledge that no other intelligence agency can.

No offense, HH, but I'll take the opinion of seasoned police officers and chiefs over yours.


No offence but i'll take my own opinion over yours.

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Post by GSC on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:34 pm

I agree fully. Just wantewanted to be sure.
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