RG - Day 10

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RG - Day 10

Post by sirfredperry on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 9:07 am

Rafa and Djoko in Q-F action today. Good job it's in Paris and not London where it's blowing a gale at present. Both guys should have enough to blow their opponents away, gale or no gale in Paris. Actually, there is no Gael, as he lost to The Man.
   I'm taking Mladenovic and Caroline W to come thru in the women's. Halep seems to be the favourite for the ladies' crown, but the French girls remaining could sweep home on crowd support. Gather Mug was not too happy with the crowd or her opponent when losing to Mlad. I guess the real reason for the antaganism was the unforgivable shrieking from the Spaniard.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Born Slippy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 9:40 am

I do wonder if Rafa is in serious danger here of going into the SF vastly underprepared. Well though he looks to be playing, he's faced absolutely no one with any weapons so far. PCB is solid but the smart money has to be on him getting no more than 6 games.

In the SF, one has to imagine Rafa is suddenly going to face serious resistance. Both Djokovic and Thiem look to be playing well and can hurt him. I'd still make him favourite but possibly a little bit of a challenge today could be better for him than another easy blowout?

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by sirfredperry on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 10:03 am

BS - Well, we've seen guys waltz thru early rounds and then come a cropper so I suppose it could happen with Rafa. But this is the French where he's lost once since 2005. 
   He'll probably be glad of a bit of a test today (assuming they get on. apparently forecast aint good).

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by naxroy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 10:21 am

I agree, rafa hasnt found much resistance untill now and that can be bad for him in the semis, which for sure will be tough

Paire was tricky for a first round, but Haase and Basilashbili were just too easy. Bautista is a decent third round rival, but maybe an easy 4th round rival, at least for rafa

it is true anyway that rafa is in great form anyway (australian open, miami, acapulco, montecarlo, barcelona and madrid say so)

what happened in rome is quite confusing though: thiem easily defeated nadal, then nole defeated thiem, and then he lost the final in straight sets to zverev who then lost in first round in paris... difficult to advance what can happen today in lenglen and in the later semifinal

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 10:23 am

BS, you talked as if Rafa had not played and beaten Djoko and Thiem this clay season! Thiem is familiar foe for Rafa, Rafa had beaten him in two finals -Barcelona and Madrid - and lost to him in QF of Rome. Rafa had also beaten Djoko at Madrid. So, to say that he may be underprepared for them in the SF is a bit over the board imo. I'm sure Rafa is well prepared for any of his opponents here, it's not like Rafa hadn't mowed through the draw to win his FO titles, he had done that in 2008, 2010 and 2012. I didn't see him being unprepared back then, and I doubt he's unprepared now when he's older and wiser!

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 10:25 am

I mean 'underprepared', not 'unprepared'.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by naxroy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 10:34 am

btw, in the last match rafa said to the umpire something like he was not going to be umpire in his matches again, is this possible? do players ban certain umpires? how are umpires chosen?

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 10:48 am

naxroy, Rafa had done that before with Bernardas; I'm sure if he requests for that, the relevant bodies may accommodate his request. I feel Rafa is being targeted, which he himself think so too, so I think it's better for him that Carlos Ramos not umpiring his matches in future.

It's not only Rafa going over the time limit, Agut too but Agut didn't even get a single warning during the match. Djoko too was having issues with this same umpire in one of his matches, Djoko had a first serve taken from one of his service point and then he got a warning for some verbal offenses or whatever. The other umpires were fine when some players went over the time limit, like in that Delpo vs Murray match for example.

The rule wasn't consistently applied, it depends on the umpires, so I can understand why Rafa wasn't pleased with this particular umpire. He had no issues with the other umpires when they gave him TV warnings.

The Bernadas case was a different issue, when Bernadas didn't allow Rafa to go off court to change his shorts without giving him a TV warning, and Rafa had to change his shorts on court! Rafa was furious about that and to me that's understandable!

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Born Slippy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:01 am

naxroy wrote:btw, in the last match rafa said to the umpire something like he was not going to be umpire in his matches again, is this possible? do players ban certain umpires? how are umpires chosen?

Yeah, it's a real concern that Rafa can make comments like this and not get sanctioned. He's already had one umpire removed from his matches at his request previously. This type of threat could cause umpires to treat him more favourably or risk not being selected for big matches - e.g. The RG final.

Whether the rule is applied inconsistently is irrelevant (and I agree it is). A player cannot be in a position of threatening to remove an umpire from his matches for disagreeing with his decision.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Born Slippy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:04 am

Belovedluckyboy wrote:BS, you talked as if Rafa had not played and beaten Djoko and Thiem this clay season!  Thiem is familiar foe for Rafa, Rafa had beaten him in two finals -Barcelona and Madrid - and lost to him in QF of Rome.  Rafa had also beaten Djoko at Madrid. So, to say that he may be underprepared for them in the SF is a bit over the board imo.  I'm sure Rafa is well prepared for any of his opponents here, it's not like Rafa hadn't mowed through the draw to win his FO titles, he had done that in 2008, 2010 and 2012.  I didn't see him being unprepared back then, and I doubt he's unprepared now when he's older and wiser!

Not what I said at all. Obviously, Rafa is favourite against either and I'm sure he knows what to expect. However, my point is that he's not had any challenge so far at all. Thiem or Novak are a clear step up in class. He could just be caught a little cold.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Guest82 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:45 am

Born Slippy wrote:I do wonder if Rafa is in serious danger here of going into the SF vastly underprepared. Well though he looks to be playing, he's faced absolutely no one with any weapons so far. PCB is solid but the smart money has to be on him getting no more than 6 games.

In the SF, one has to imagine Rafa is suddenly going to face serious resistance. Both Djokovic and Thiem look to be playing well and can hurt him. I'd still make him favourite but possibly a little bit of a challenge today could be better for him than another easy blowout?

Whilst Rafa is clearly playing very well and would be heavy favourite against both Djokovic and Thiem, there is a slight worry (for him) that he will face his biggest challenge of the tournament next and will be unlikely to have been tested at all.

Djokovic isn't playing very well, but we have seen the odd performance where he has been very good (v Thiem in Rome for example). Djokovic is also the one player who has caused Nadal the most problems throughout their careers.

Thiem is young and learning fast, his win against Rafa in Rome will have given him confidence and if he's "on" then he is a serious threat.

I expect Djokovic to beat Thiem and then Rafa to beat Djokovic though. I think I would give Thiem more of a chance against Rafa than I would Djokovic.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Guest82 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:47 am

Born Slippy wrote:
naxroy wrote:btw, in the last match rafa said to the umpire something like he was not going to be umpire in his matches again, is this possible? do players ban certain umpires? how are umpires chosen?

Yeah, it's a real concern that Rafa can make comments like this and not get sanctioned. He's already had one umpire removed from his matches at his request previously. This type of threat could cause umpires to treat him more favourably or risk not being selected for big matches - e.g. The RG final.

Whether the rule is applied inconsistently is irrelevant (and I agree it is). A player cannot be in a position of threatening to remove an umpire from his matches for disagreeing with his decision.

Yes very dangerous grounds this. He cannot pick and chose his umpires.

Also, if he breaks the rules he should get punished for it. So should others, but that is not the point. He's probably the worst abuser of the rule too, to be fair.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 1:17 pm

So how? Continued to be targeted without fighting back?

Rafa is not the worst offender now (TV); he has already sped up but some other players haven't and yet TV warnings are not called on them. Do you think this is fair?

I think Rafa can request for Carlos Ramos not umpiring his matches, and it's up to the authorities to do what they can to rectify the situation, like talk to Ramos, settle the differences etc, before considering acceding to Rafa's request. I doubt it's just as simple as they acceding to Rafa's request right away!

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Guest82 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 1:37 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:So how? Continued to be targeted without fighting back?

Rafa is not the worst offender now (TV); he has already sped up but some other players haven't and yet TV warnings are not called on them. Do you think this is fair?  

I think Rafa can request for Carlos Ramos not umpiring his matches, and it's up to the authorities to do what they can to rectify the situation, like talk to Ramos, settle the differences etc, before considering acceding to Rafa's request.  I doubt it's just as simple as they acceding to Rafa's request right away!

If he doesn't want to be pulled up on it, then don't break the rules. Simple.

So can Kyrgios decide who umpires his matches? Kyle Edmund? James Ward? He is using his position as one of the best ever to potentially influence his matches.

From whenever I have watched, Rafa seems to be the worst for consistently breaking the same rule. Djokovic was bad for a set the other day and is slow at times, but not all the time like Rafa. Also, as far as I am aware, Djokovic accepted his penalty without demanding the same umpire never takes charge of one of his matches.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 2:04 pm

Guest, I've seen worse cases than Rafa but TV warnings weren't issued! You are ok with that?

I see you're biased against Rafa, I mean did Rafa keep requesting for banning umpires from his matches, despite being targeted always?? So the problem is not about TV warnings, but how they are being given out.

I mean if the umpires can pick and choose which offender to target and which not, then why can't the players fight back? Also, the umpires themselves are already not being consistent about the TV warnings, how do you expect the players to abide by the rules?

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Haddie-nuff on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 2:50 pm

When you cant have a go at Rafa for anything else lets get back to the old chestnut  time violation.  Ive seen Novak bounce the ball 21 times, Ive seen Andy Murray go over time, Delpo, and Raonic is very near too.. they don't make it so obvious.  Yes as I have said on numerous occasions.. penalise Rafa if he breaks the rule... but penalise the others also. Back to the argument of inconsistency by umpires.  What I object to with Novaks ball bouncing, he not only goes overtime but repeatedly bouncing the ball is a distraction to his opponent ..so he needs warning on both counts imo

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 3:01 pm

This is my take on it all.

Nadal and Djokovic are the most persistent and consistent offenders and so the umpires clamp down on them. They don't clamp down on others because their infractions are far more sporadic. Umpires realize it would become farcical hauling every single infraction over the coals so only go after the consistent offenders. Is that right? No it isn't at all but strictly speaking rules are rules. However, this needs sorting. EVERY infraction should be punished but if they were then Nadal and Djokovic would suffer even more. So it is a case of either leave it as it is - inconsistent and chaotic but less second service rule brought in or enforce it at all times in which case Djoko and Rafa will be reduced to perhaps permanent second serve from early doors in each match.
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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 3:10 pm

CC, I can tell you that it's not only Rafa or Djoko, but most others, including Delpo, Kei, Murray, Cilic, Monfils would be serving second serves most of the times!

Only Fed and the big servers rarely go over the time limit, with Isner being the exception.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Haddie-nuff on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 3:11 pm

The thing that is more than obvious is that the fault does not lie with any one player but it does lie with inconsistent/poor umpiring; all offenders or none because it makes a total mockery of the rule in the first place. All players will get away with bending/breaking rules if allowed to they are tennis players not saints. Its an imponderable and the same old arguments keep being churned out time and again

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 3:12 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:CC, I can tell you that it's not only Rafa or Djoko, but most others, including Delpo, Kei, Murray, Cilic, Monfils would be serving second serves most of the times!

Only Fed and the big servers rarely go over the time limit, with Isner being the exception.

Right so now we are into conspiracy theory realms then.
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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 3:22 pm

CC, and so you think there's no such thing that certain players are targeted? Then why no TV warnings for some players who clearly went over the time limit?

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 3:24 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:CC, and so you think there's no such thing that certain players are targeted? Then why no TV warnings for some players who clearly went over the time limit?

Like I said in my original post I'd say the umpires are using their discretion. They'll let a few indiscretions go until its gets to a point when they think enough is enough and ham out punishment. Rafa and Novak are the ones that get to that stage whilst others maybe have a couple of sporadic indiscretions and so eye is not kept on clock so much for them.
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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Haddie-nuff on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 3:35 pm

I disagree ..sure it would take a blind man not to notice that Novak and Djokovic both have their little "habits" !! but so do others .. check out Raonic and his habit of swapping balls/ball girls and taking and tossing away balls willie nilly  and the ball bouncing and serve preparation, Montfils.. count how many times he re does his shoe laces before serve. Delpo always strolls around the back of the court at his own pace (usually slow/stop) Nishi likewise.. its not so obvious so maybe the umpire doesn't notice but I would be interested in seeing what ALL the players did if they had a time clock.. there would be many offenders.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 3:42 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:I disagree ..sure it would take a blind man not to notice that Novak and Djokovic both have their little "habits" !! but so do others .. check out Raonic and his habit of swapping balls/ball girls and taking and tossing away balls willie nilly  and the ball bouncing and serve preparation, Montfils.. count how many times he re does his shoe laces before serve. Delpo always strolls around the back of the court at his own pace (usually slow/stop) Nishi likewise.. its not so obvious so maybe the umpire doesn't notice but I would be interested in seeing what ALL the players did if they had a time clock.. there would be many offenders.

If the umpires were to go strictly by the letter of the law then Rafa and Novak would be on second serves a few games into each match. Others may be at that stage around a set or two into the match so at the end of the day they'd still be at a disadvantage. Of course consistency is needed though. Only way I can see that coming about is have another official timing each gap in each match and he passes that info onto the umpire. I cannot see how the umpire can check the clock every single time for a match running say four hours and umpire the match at the same time.
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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Haddie-nuff on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 3:57 pm

Then, for the benefit of all players, in the name of fairness to all.. bring in the time clock
Because if not every player, on every occasion, is going to abide by that rule then the whole thing is bliddy pointless. Because we on this forum will do nothing but chunter on about Rafa being a "cheat" in every match... and Novak no better... whilst others who have their own subtle way of "cheating" in every match , and I can name many get away with blue murder

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 4:01 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:Then, for the benefit of all players, in the name of fairness to all.. bring in the time clock
Because if not every player, on every occasion, is going to abide by that rule then the whole thing is bliddy pointless. Because we on this forum will do nothing but chunter on about Rafa being a "cheat" in every match... and Novak no better... whilst others who have their own subtle way of "cheating" in every match , and I can name many get away with blue murder

It's something that needs addressed - either fully enforce it or axe it. It is something the authorities need to decide on one way or the other.
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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 4:08 pm

Well said, Haddie! Agreed!

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by temporary21 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 4:08 pm

Sounds like a discussion we had 2 or 3 years ago

Today might get washed out at this rate 

Plus the problems the city is having today...

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Haddie-nuff on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 4:10 pm

I agree ..any player, whether it be Rafa or anyone else has a right to feel disgruntled when he/she knows that others are getting away with breaking the rule also. even though he knows and we know he is wrong... BUT It matters not whether you murder one person or three... its still murder Wink

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 4:13 pm

temporary21 wrote:Sounds like a discussion we had 2 or 3 years ago

Today might get washed out at this rate 

Plus the problems the city is having today...

Hmm there does seem to be dryer interludes forecast for late afternoon/early evening but cannot see all matches getting finished.
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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by JuliusHMarx on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 4:20 pm

It can't be axed altogether or Djoko would bounce the ball 50 times!

I've seen Murray, Djoko and Rafa all get time violations so far in the French Open - as expected because they do take a long time. Not sure about Delpo or Raonic - has anyone watched all their matches? Also, there are loads of matches not on television, so for all we know several other journeyman players may have had warnings.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by temporary21 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 4:23 pm

They might have to put both men's quarters on at the same time

Who gets PC in that case...

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Haddie-nuff on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 4:29 pm

I would like someone to time Raonic .. and as was said once by a US commentator when
Delpo played in the US Open... after watching him stroll around the back of the court. "heck he sure can mosey cant he "? and he does.. however this subject will rattle on forever and so carry on bouncing Novak

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by JuliusHMarx on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 4:31 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:so carry on bouncing Novak

I can't, he's too heavy.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Guest82 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 4:32 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Guest, I've seen worse cases than Rafa but TV warnings weren't issued!  You are ok with that?  

I see you're biased against Rafa, I mean did Rafa keep requesting for banning umpires from his matches, despite being targeted always??  So the problem is not about TV warnings, but how they are being given out.

I mean if the umpires can pick and choose which offender to target and which not, then why can't the players fight back?  Also, the umpires themselves are already not being consistent about the TV warnings, how do you expect the players to abide by the rules?

I am biased against Rafa for trying to pick and choose his umpires, yes. I think that is abuse of his status.

I don't like the fact that he takes a long time between points and think it is cheating. I can see that others also do the same, in my opinion, less often than him. If he accepted that because he does take a long time between points then he will get pulled up on it occasionally (like Djokovic seems to) then it would be no issue. But to go on the offensive against an umpire because they have enforced the rules of the game is disrespectful.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Guest82 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 4:32 pm

temporary21 wrote:They might have to put both men's quarters on at the same time

Who gets PC in that case...

Djokovic v Thiem is already scheduled for Lenglen.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Born Slippy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 4:33 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:It can't be axed altogether or Djoko would bounce the ball 50 times!

I've seen Murray, Djoko and Rafa all get time violations so far in the French Open - as expected because they do take a long time. Not sure about Delpo or Raonic - has anyone watched all their matches? Also, there are loads of matches not on television, so for all we know several other journeyman players may have had warnings.

Carlos gave one of the ladies a warning earlier I think (pretty sure it was him). Anyway, if Rafa thinks the rule is unfair or inconsistent then he should be lobbying for change not requesting that umpires who actually enforce the rule are removed from his matches.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Haddie-nuff on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 4:35 pm

Guest82 wrote:
Belovedluckyboy wrote:Guest, I've seen worse cases than Rafa but TV warnings weren't issued!  You are ok with that?  

I see you're biased against Rafa, I mean did Rafa keep requesting for banning umpires from his matches, despite being targeted always??  So the problem is not about TV warnings, but how they are being given out.

I mean if the umpires can pick and choose which offender to target and which not, then why can't the players fight back?  Also, the umpires themselves are already not being consistent about the TV warnings, how do you expect the players to abide by the rules?

I am biased against Rafa for trying to pick and choose his umpires, yes.  I think that is abuse of his status.  

I don't like the fact that he takes a long time between points and think it is cheating.  I can see that others also do the same, in my opinion, less often than him.  If he accepted that because he does take a long time between points then he will get pulled up on it occasionally (like Djokovic seems to) then it would be no issue.   But to go on the offensive against an umpire because they have enforced the rules of the game is disrespectful.

Well your right one count at least you are biased against Rafa rules are rules no matter how many times you break them ..he is wrong but so are all the others

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Born Slippy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 5:04 pm

The point is not the original break of the rules. Rafa may be the worst offender but there are many others. The issue is that Rafa is the only one who appears to be threatening to ban umpires from his matches.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by temporary21 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 5:09 pm

Wasn't this years ago?! 

I think the rest of the world has moved on. Rafa certainly has

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Haddie-nuff on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 5:16 pm

Yes but again if he feels the said umpire  perpetually  treating him "differently" to other players I can understand his problem.. I don't think it is a matter of using his status as a tennis player,that does not sound like Rafa Nadal. I would suggest that its not favouritism he is looking for but fairness. I cant imagine, with Toni as his coach for all these years he is not used to dealing with harsh decisions but coped with them when he has thought they were fair.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by temporary21 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 5:20 pm

In ACTUAL news

The men's quarters have been suspended till tomorrow

Means all 4 quarters on the same day

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Born Slippy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 5:36 pm

temporary21 wrote:Wasn't this years ago?! 

I think the rest of the world has moved on. Rafa certainly has

We are talking about Rafa's last match Temp. It doesn't appear Rafa has moved on.

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by temporary21 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 5:46 pm

So do we have a source? What EXACTLY was said?

What prompted it? WAS Rafa being penalised when his opponent wasn't?

I've seen federer swear at umpires and not tell them to talk to him

People do out of character stuff when under stress

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Born Slippy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 5:50 pm

Only in French:

http://www.eurosport.fr/tennis/roland-garros/2017/nadal-a-larbitre-donne-moi-tous-les-avertissements-que-tu-peux-car-tu-ne-marbitreras-plus_sto6200260/story.shtml

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by temporary21 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 5:51 pm

So how have you translated it?

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by temporary21 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 5:52 pm

Moreover why wasn't the source the first thing posted?

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by temporary21 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 5:56 pm

Right I've found at least 3 English sources citing this

Here's just one
http://www.news.com.au/sport/tennis/rafael-nadal-criticises-chair-umpire-at-french-open/news-story/e80a249590dcd9d1e7d53a333ba5c498

Where does he threaten the umpire with not letting him play again?

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by temporary21 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 6:00 pm

Aha the express has it 

Easy enough to find if you google "nadal umpire"

Reading the WHOLE thing. It doesn't sound nearly as extreme as being made out to be

Sounds like he got miffed at being unfairly treated but explained his frustrations in detail afterwards, and he respected him 

Djokovic in fact has said he is "losing his mind". 

Sounds like a storm in a teacup... again

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Re: RG - Day 10

Post by Born Slippy on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 6:13 pm

Temp, this is the second most influential tennis player in the world, with a prior history of having an umpire removed from his matches, telling an umpire during a match that he won't be umpiring him again. Are you seriously telling me that would have no possible impact on the umpire's ongoing umpiring of the match? Whether said in the heat of the moment or not, it's incredibly serious.

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Re: RG - Day 10

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