Argentina vs England, 1st Test

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Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 3:49 pm

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Match Details

Venue: Estadio del Bicentenario, San Juan
Date: Saturday 10th June
Time: 20:15 BST
TV: BBC2



Officials

Referee - Nigel Owens (Wales)
Ass 1 - John Lacey (Ireland)
Ass 2 - Egon Seconds (SA)
TMO - Aaron Paterson (NZ)


Teams

Argentina - 15 Joaquin Tuculet, 14 Matias Moroni, 13 Matias Orlando, 12 Jeronimo de la Fuente, 11 Emiliano Boffelli, 10 Nicolas Sanchez, 9 Martin Landajo, 1 Lucas Noguera Paz, 2 Agustin Creevy (c), 3 Enrique Pieretto, 4 Matias Alemanno, 5 Tomas Lavanini, 6 Pablo Matera, 7 Javier Ortega Desio, 8 Juan Manuel Leguizamon.

Replacements: 16 Julian Montoya, 17 Santiago Garcia Botta, 18 Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro, 19 Guido Petti, 20 Leonardo Senatore, 21 Gonzalo Bertranou, 22 Juan Martin Hernandez, 23 Ramiro Moyano.



England - 15 Mike Brown, 14 Marland Yarde, 13 Henry Slade, 12 Alex Lozowski, 11 Jonny May, 10 George Ford, 9 Danny Care; 1 Ellis Genge, 2 Dylan Hartley (c), 3 Harry Williams, 4 Joe Launchbury, 5 Charlie Ewels, 6 Mark Wilson, 7 Tom Curry, 8 Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: 16 Jack Singleton, 17 Matt Mullan, 18 Will Collier, 19 Nick Isiekwe, 20 Don Armand, 21 Jack Maunder, 22 Piers Francis, 23 Denny Solomona.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Steffan on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:17 pm

BamBam wrote:Probably 2 less legs and less of a wooly coat than you're used to
Very original. Did you come up with that one yourself of did you get your mother to come down to her basement and help you?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:21 pm

Incredible result. Ford's best display for England?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:23 pm

Kicking yes.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by lostinwales on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:24 pm

Steffan wrote:
BamBam wrote:Probably 2 less legs and less of a wooly coat than you're used to
Very original. Did you come up with that one yourself of did you get your mother to come down to her basement and help you?

I hope you didn't mind the interruption

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Cyril on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:25 pm

Could be Londontiger. Ford's passing (he really knows how to judge a missed pass), place kicking, tackling and, of course the try, were very impressive. He really seemed to enjoy the responsibility. He needed this game I think.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Steffan on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:27 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Steffan wrote:
BamBam wrote:Probably 2 less legs and less of a wooly coat than you're used to
Very original. Did you come up with that one yourself of did you get your mother to come down to her basement and help you?

I hope you didn't mind the interruption
Nah. She was talking nonsense when he called her down anyway

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by lostinwales on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:27 pm

Anyway back to the game. Lots of good displays. I thought Hughes had a good game. Both centers were good, and Francis didn't look out of place at all.

Hartley wasn't great. Lineouts were frustrating. (We get a hand to their ball then they run through to claim it). Credit to Argentina though they were great on the counter, but luckily bloody stupid at the end.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Gooseberry on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:27 pm

On one hand we have a bunch of premiership makeweights getting tries for fun ....on the other the cream of Europe unable to score with 50 quid in their pants round the back of the docks.

The Argentina tour is at least entertaining but still about as relevant as the Lions warm ups.


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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:31 pm

I think your wrong gooseberry...but you keep up the positivity anyway eh?!

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:32 pm

It's just entertainment.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:33 pm

Good interview from Eddie Jones....

But aarrgghhh Solomona! Why couldn't may have scored the try.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Cumbrian on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:33 pm

I don't want to sound like a dick but if Brown isn't safe under the high ball and doesn't beat men in attack, what is he doing in the side? He hasn't got massive pace, he never kicks and regularly ignores overlaps/obvious passes. He basically dies in contact now. Don't get me wrong, he has been a brilliant servant but I wonder if it isn't time to move on.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:36 pm

It will be shortly. Watson to 15.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:37 pm

I said earlier marra last tour for Hartley and Brown.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Cumbrian on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:37 pm

Gooseberry wrote:On one hand we have a bunch of premiership makeweights getting tries for fun ....on the other the cream of Europe unable to score with 50 quid in their pants round the back of the docks.

The Argentina tour is at least entertaining but still about as relevant as the Lions warm ups.


You don't think any of these lads could play their way in/out of Eddie's reckoning? Surely the tour is 'relevant' from that point of view?
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:44 pm

What an important game for the future of English rugby that might be. For that side, with 30 missing players, to go away from home and beat a full strength and well established RC side - incredible.

Fantastic game to watch too. For me that was Ford's best performance for England - I had no idea he could kick that well. I thought the centre's were excellent - Francis looked good at 12 and Slade's touch of class was 'worth the admission fee'!

The back row were great. Well done Mark Wilson, and Tom Curry - wow. He is 18 years old, and playing against a hugely experienced and powerful side. What a player he will become (and what bad news for England's opponents). And from what I have seen Ben Curry is the better player.

When the front 5 started to get physically overwhelmed, the back row really stepped up. I thought Genge, Williams and Collier all did well.

Surely Hartley and Brown are near the end though? George and Watson must be the future.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Cumbrian on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:50 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I said earlier marra last tour for Hartley and Brown.

Agreed about Hartley too, he just seems dominated in contact and lost the ball too many times today.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by lostinwales on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:52 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:On one hand we have a bunch of premiership makeweights getting tries for fun ....on the other the cream of Europe unable to score with 50 quid in their pants round the back of the docks.

The Argentina tour is at least entertaining but still about as relevant as the Lions warm ups.


You don't think any of these lads could play their way in/out of Eddie's reckoning? Surely the tour is 'relevant' from that point of view?

I do think its important for the same reason. It's also important that Argentina know we can beat them with our 2nd team.

It means already that Genge is going to be putting a lot of pressure on our first choices, as will Mark Wilson. It means we know that Lozowski is good enough for international rugby, that Slade is a very capable player who can produce sublime touches

I have started to wonder if it may well be the last we'll see of Brown and Hartley too. Having said that its worth noting that Brown did play very well vs the Barbarians, and Hartley played the full 80 tonight (or as near as damn as). If EJ had doubts Hartley would have left earlier.

I'd also add that we did seem to have trouble with the ball early on. Kicks kept on going long and that very visible drop by Brown, and I do wish he had shipped the ball to May earlier on that break out that ended with May kicking ahead and the ball going into touch.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:55 pm

He couldn't take Hartley off really - Singleton isn't ready to feature in tight game like that (I'm not really sure why he is on tour tbh).

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by TightHEAD on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:04 pm

Great performance from England

But I have to say the Argies looked pretty good for much of that game. The SH chaps can really offload.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:09 pm

Imagine curry when he actually matures and puts on a stone or so and hits actual adult fitness levels.....

I'm also glad people are acknowledging Mark Wilson. The guy has been immense for us for years now and we see performances like that week in week out. Mr consistency.

Now I know he won't be in the main squad when everyone is available but it's just nice to see him finally rated, that he CAN do it if needed!

Though I assume besucked still won't acknowledge it!

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by lostinwales on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:15 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Imagine curry when he actually matures and puts on a stone or so and hits actual adult fitness levels.....

I'm also glad people are acknowledging Mark Wilson.  The guy has been immense for us for years now and we see performances like that week in week out. Mr consistency.

Now I know he won't be in the main squad when everyone is available but it's just nice to see him finally rated, that he CAN do it if needed!

Though I assume besucked still won't acknowledge it!

He could well be in the main squad. He has to be behind Robshaw but there is space for a backup 6

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by lostinwales on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:17 pm

DaveM wrote:He couldn't take Hartley off really - Singleton isn't ready to feature in tight game like that (I'm not really sure why he is on tour tbh).

Who else is there?

And why is LCD always injured?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:19 pm

He should have taken a good club player - Haywood for instance.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:21 pm

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Imagine curry when he actually matures and puts on a stone or so and hits actual adult fitness levels.....

I'm also glad people are acknowledging Mark Wilson.  The guy has been immense for us for years now and we see performances like that week in week out. Mr consistency.

Now I know he won't be in the main squad when everyone is available but it's just nice to see him finally rated, that he CAN do it if needed!

Though I assume besucked still won't acknowledge it!

He could well be in the main squad. He has to be behind Robshaw but there is space for a backup 6

Robshaw yes ( like Wilson he is Mr consistent) , but maybe not Haskell if he doesn't hit the heights again.

Would have loved to see Underhill  in that game today aswell. Then potentially Mercer who looks top class, Clifford if he can recover and hit genuine potential...it's looking good.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:23 pm

So hopefully next week we will see Earl, Underhill, Ben Curry (I would give Tom the week off) and at least one of Mallinder and Devoto. I would like to see Maunder get a bit more game time, as I thought he impressed. I wouldn't mind seeing Lozowski or Slade start at 15, but I don't expect it to happen.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:24 pm

Do you think he'll mix it up Dave? Nothing to lose attitude ?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by BamBam on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:30 pm

Do you think he starts Solomona? Give him a week of defensive schooling, he's clearly got the physicality just needs to fix his bloody positioning

On the bright side for his defence, he's not actively jumping out of the way and trying to pull their hair like another former league winger was doing for England in the not so distant past

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:32 pm

This, and possibly the Al's this year, are his last chance to really experiment. I don't think he should make Tom Curry play twice in a week, and why not look at a few others players under pressure? Argentina will come back hard.

I would have Solomona on the bench again and give Earl the starting shirt - ever since I saw him play for the u20s I though he had something special.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:35 pm

So what side would you start next week?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:46 pm

Genge
Hartley
Collier
Launchbury
Ewels
Wilson (We won't learn anything about Robshaw)
Underhill
Hughes
Care
Ford
May
Devoto
Slade
Earl
Lozowski

Singleton
Mullan
Williams
Isiekwe
Ben Curry
Maunder
Francis
Solomona






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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:03 am

Care over Maunder? Would you not give the youngster a go.... or do you want experience in a key position.

The rest is very interesting though Dave. The back three looks fun!

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:06 am

I have made the backline even more inexperienced so I think I would stick with Care. I would want to see Maunder from around 60 minutes though.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:13 am

I could happily see that side out.

The back row could be very physical with underhill replacing curry.

What did you think of the locks performance? Ewell?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:17 am

I didn't think he looked out of place. Like Clifford he would have been a regular if he had emerged 5 year's earlier. He is a great back-up lock to have until Isiekwe is ready.

Launchbury is a class act and stood up really well I thought.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:19 am

I would like to see Lozowski given a go at FB actually. He's quick and is an excellent defender. Again like Clifford the risk is he can't find his niche in such a competitive era, bit FB is wide open at present and he is a serious talent.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Cyril on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:22 am

Launchbury had some great carries, taking the ball very flat and at pace. Exciting that some of our experienced players like him and Ford (in a very callow side) are still to enter their peak. Really buzzing after this game!

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:27 am

I can imagine Maunder being the starting SH by 2019. I have no idea what our starting 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 will be, but the credible options just keep racking up.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:29 am

Eddie probably already has an idea what it will be ha ha

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 6:47 am

That was a tough game for England, swinging one way then another . i must admit i did think Argentina was going to win quite easily in the second half, but what a try from solamoa at the death.

England have some good young players coming through and things are looking very good for England in the future.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Ozzy3213 on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 8:10 am

Great game. I don't think I've seen a more enjoyable international match in the last 5 years.

I thought our three experienced forwards Hartley, Launchbury and Hughes got through a mountain of work. Genge and Curry stood out of the youngsters in the pack and Mark Wilson did a really solid job.

In the backs Slade looked classy as he always does in an England jersey, and that was in my opinion Ford's best game for England.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by rumpelstiltskindoh on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 9:00 am

Entertaining game. The Pumas play such an attractive game of rugby. Sometimes doesn't help their results, but great for the neutral. England showed more cohesion than could have been expected, which says a lot for the coaching team, and Ford was superb.
Credit to Nigel Owen too.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by lostinwales on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 9:02 am

It must be said that if we had kept Yarde on the full game it is entirely possible we would have stopped at least one of the Argentinian tries they scored on Denny's side. But who cares. What a finish. Also worth a mention to whoever gave him the final pass. Really nice acceleration then step then pass out of the tackle, giving Denny just a little bit more space.

It can be so difficult for a winger to make an impact in their first game because they may not see the ball at all. That was pretty much the only time Denny actually got the ball in the 20 minutes or so he was on the pitch. He certainly made the most of it.

If he had not we would only be left with the defensive howlers.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 10:13 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah but Solomona is not feck in English arrrgghhhhh

GF, this is getting worrying, a touch of schizophrenia maybe, arguing with yourself about this.


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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 10:20 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Good interview from Eddie Jones....

But aarrgghhh Solomona! Why couldn't may have scored the try.

Because Brown refused to pass to him all the game, twice in big open space he had may outside of him and kicked, once straight into touch and about three times he had my outside of him and he took the contact. May is bigger, much quicker and has a better ball handling skill set than Brown, he should have passed.

May is at his best when given open space to run into, remember NZ, they will remember it for a long time. Unfortunately Brown is getting on a bit now and his memory is going, seems like he has forgotten what passing the ball is like.

Probably Browns worst game for England for a long time and not just for his lack of passing, rubbish under the high ball, got caught out of position for their kick through try. Watson looks to be the better choice these days.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 11:17 am

Given Ford's best game was yesterday, I wonder if that is evidence to support the theory that Ford is better when Farrell isn't on the pitch? Given the large number of centre options available, plus Farrell's lack of pace and carrying ability limiting how good 12 he can become, perhaps Jones should bite the bullet and just start one and have the other on the bench? He could even just alternate which one starts, game to game.

I'd still want to see a second distributor in the centres, but England have loads of combinations available - how about Ford, T'eo, Slade as a starting 10, 12, 13 for instance?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 11:32 am

lostinwales wrote:It must be said that if we had kept Yarde on the full game it is entirely possible we would have stopped at least one of the Argentinian tries they scored on Denny's side. But who cares. What a finish. Also worth a mention to whoever gave him the final pass. Really nice acceleration then step then pass out of the tackle, giving Denny just a little bit more space.

I think that was Francis. I wouldn't mind him being given a start in the next test to be honest. The number of options England now have at 12 is incredible - hence me wondering if the time to end the Farrell at IC policy has arrived.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by robbo277 on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 11:39 am

I've always thought our attack looked better with Ford at 10, and maybe a different centre partnership will take us to another level, but we scored enough points in the Six Nations other than the final game against Ireland where we couldn't control the ball, and scored decent points in the Autumn and away in Australia last summer.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 11:54 am

DaveM wrote:Given Ford's best game was yesterday, I wonder if that is evidence to support the theory that Ford is better when Farrell isn't on the pitch? Given the large number of centre options available, plus Farrell's lack of pace and carrying ability limiting how good 12 he can become, perhaps Jones should bite the bullet and just start one and have the other on the bench? He could even just alternate which one starts, game to game.

I'd still want to see a second distributor in the centres, but England have loads of combinations available - how about Ford, T'eo, Slade as a starting 10, 12, 13 for instance?

It's funny how one thread is stating Farrell is the best 10 for the Lions, but the England thread is thinking about Ford without Farrell as potentially the best for England.

I think that we should be cognisant that we had three playmakers at 10 12 and 13 who all had some sublime touches and that helped Ford a great deal, not sure if he would have been so good without the other two when he would have been under pressure. His kicking (place) was great yesterday, but we all know what it can be like when he feels the pressure. Farrell, although no Ben Teo can truck it up as well as do all the things Lozowski can do (except the surprising pace) and is a better defender and kicker. He offers alternatives that playing either a bosher (Teo) or another 10 (Lozowski) do not.

All will be sorted in a couple of years time anyway, Prince Harry has the complete skill set and the size to do anything, another season or so to work on his decision making and defence and we will start to see a potentially world class 12 emerge. Imagine a 21 year old Jamie Roberts with a complete skill set and more pace, mouth watering prospect. But still only a prospect, I would love to see him get a 20 minute run out next week, I think he has so much more potential than Devoto.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:00 pm

Ford and Farrell have done ok, but it has never looked quite right to me. I think Jones wants two play-makers (which I agree with), and thought Ford and Farrell were two of his best players so why not have them on the pitch together. Now I just feel we have enough options that we should be able to identify a better 12. I don't care who starts at 10, but I do think only one of Ford and Farrell should be on the pitch at any one time under normal circumstances (part from anything else it will be clear who is leading the attack).

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