Argentina vs England, 1st Test

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Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 3:49 pm

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Match Details

Venue: Estadio del Bicentenario, San Juan
Date: Saturday 10th June
Time: 20:15 BST
TV: BBC2



Officials

Referee - Nigel Owens (Wales)
Ass 1 - John Lacey (Ireland)
Ass 2 - Egon Seconds (SA)
TMO - Aaron Paterson (NZ)


Teams

Argentina - 15 Joaquin Tuculet, 14 Matias Moroni, 13 Matias Orlando, 12 Jeronimo de la Fuente, 11 Emiliano Boffelli, 10 Nicolas Sanchez, 9 Martin Landajo, 1 Lucas Noguera Paz, 2 Agustin Creevy (c), 3 Enrique Pieretto, 4 Matias Alemanno, 5 Tomas Lavanini, 6 Pablo Matera, 7 Javier Ortega Desio, 8 Juan Manuel Leguizamon.

Replacements: 16 Julian Montoya, 17 Santiago Garcia Botta, 18 Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro, 19 Guido Petti, 20 Leonardo Senatore, 21 Gonzalo Bertranou, 22 Juan Martin Hernandez, 23 Ramiro Moyano.



England - 15 Mike Brown, 14 Marland Yarde, 13 Henry Slade, 12 Alex Lozowski, 11 Jonny May, 10 George Ford, 9 Danny Care; 1 Ellis Genge, 2 Dylan Hartley (c), 3 Harry Williams, 4 Joe Launchbury, 5 Charlie Ewels, 6 Mark Wilson, 7 Tom Curry, 8 Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: 16 Jack Singleton, 17 Matt Mullan, 18 Will Collier, 19 Nick Isiekwe, 20 Don Armand, 21 Jack Maunder, 22 Piers Francis, 23 Denny Solomona.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:05 pm

I wonder if Beshocked has changed his mind about Yarde yet, he probably wouldn't have scored the try that Solomona scored, but he wouldn't have made the errors he did either, on of which cost us a try.

His strike rate is phenomenal and all the better for his stuttering selections, if it wasn't for some vary haphazard passing he may have got one or two more last night. I am not advocating him for a place when we have all our options available, but he has never let England down and given a sniff of a chance, tends to take it. He would make most of the 6N squads at least.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:06 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

I think that we should be cognisant that we had three playmakers at 10 12 and 13 who all had some sublime touches and that helped Ford a great deal, not sure if he would have been so good without the other two when he would have been under pressure. His kicking (place) was great yesterday, but we all know what it can be like when he feels the pressure. Farrell, although no Ben Teo can truck it up as well as do all the things Lozowski can do (except the surprising pace) and is a better defender and kicker. He offers alternatives that playing either a bosher (Teo) or another 10 (Lozowski) do not.


One of the things that might happen, with JJ and Daly struggling to get into the first choice Lions side, is that the 13 shirt might be available for Slade. With that second play-maker in midfield T'eo (who is impressing) could come into 12. There is a great balance to Ford/Farrell, T'eo, Slade.

I think Lozowski is a really good player, but I don't see him as a long-term international 12.

Mallinder is a huge talent - I love him as an attacking player. His defence should improve and he could indeed be the long-term answer at 12.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:19 pm

DaveM wrote:Ford and Farrell have done ok, but it has never looked quite right to me. I think Jones wants two play-makers (which I agree with), and thought Ford and Farrell were two of his best players so why not have them on the pitch together. Now I just feel we have enough options that we should be able to identify a better 12. I don't care who starts at 10, but I do think only one of Ford and Farrell should be on the pitch at any one time under normal circumstances (part from anything else it will be clear who is leading the attack).  

Dave, I can see where you are coming from but I can't quite agree. Playing both gives England the chance to mix it up, play a number of styles and keep the opposition guessing, playing only one dictates the style as neither can replicate each others strengths to the same effect. Until we have an option that can be both as controlling as Farrell and as aware as Ford, I think they are still our best combo.

I like Teo as an alternative style of play, but I would not have Slade in the side at JJ's expense, he has been our best attacking back for the last couple of seasons, his pace an ability to get outside defenders is second to none in the 6N anyway. If Slade plays, I would see it at 12 carrying out a Farrell like job with more finesse, but less edge.

Just happy to have so many options though, must give Eddie a headache trying to think them all through at night. As yesterday showed we have the options to play any style in a competent manner, well except for a defensive style at the moment.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by lostinwales on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:22 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Good interview from Eddie Jones....

But aarrgghhh Solomona! Why couldn't may have scored the try.

Because Brown refused to pass to him all the game, twice in big open space he had may outside of him and kicked, once straight into touch and about three times he had my outside of him and he took the contact. May is bigger, much quicker and has a better ball handling skill set than Brown, he should have passed.

May is at his best when given open space to run into, remember NZ, they will remember it for a long time. Unfortunately Brown is getting on a bit now and his memory is going, seems like he has forgotten what passing the ball is like.

Probably Browns worst game for England for a long time and not just for his lack of passing, rubbish under the high ball, got caught out of position for their kick through try. Watson looks to be the better choice these days.

Yep. Really beginning to change my mind about Brown. I have been a fan for a long time, but there are times when just running straight doesn't do it anymore. Most of the rest of the backline might have shipped the ball out to May first then got into position to take the offload if/when May gets caught

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by lostinwales on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:27 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I wonder if Beshocked has changed his mind about Yarde yet, he probably wouldn't have scored the try that Solomona scored, but he wouldn't have made the errors he did either, on of which cost us a try.

His strike rate is phenomenal and all the better for his stuttering selections, if it wasn't for some vary haphazard passing he may have got one or two more last night. I am not advocating him for a place when we have all our options available, but he has never let England down and given a sniff of a chance, tends to take it. He would make most of the 6N squads at least.

+1

What was very impressive was a run he made when he got isolated, but was strong enough to keep on his feet long enough for the cavalry to arrive and recylce the ball. He works hard, gets involved, and doesn't look like a complete waste of space in defense

I wouldn't be surprised if he plays a lot better for England than he does in the AP.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:38 pm

lostinwales wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I wonder if Beshocked has changed his mind about Yarde yet, he probably wouldn't have scored the try that Solomona scored, but he wouldn't have made the errors he did either, on of which cost us a try.

His strike rate is phenomenal and all the better for his stuttering selections, if it wasn't for some vary haphazard passing he may have got one or two more last night. I am not advocating him for a place when we have all our options available, but he has never let England down and given a sniff of a chance, tends to take it. He would make most of the 6N squads at least.

+1

What was very impressive was a run he made when he got isolated, but was strong enough to keep on his feet long enough for the cavalry to arrive and recylce the ball. He works hard, gets involved, and doesn't look like a complete waste of space in defense

I wouldn't be surprised if he plays a lot better for England than he does in the AP.

I thought both wingers were good at that, May got a pass when he was in no space to run, rather than die with the ball he worked hard to stay on his feet even if it meant crabbing infield, result, Yarde's try.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:42 pm

The other player I thought hasn't received enough plaudits is Launchbury, he was immense all game, carried well, passed well, tackled like a demon. If Gatland watches the game, he will be sick that he didn't pick him for the Lions

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:46 pm

Launchbery had a stormer, and make no mistake, I would have taken him for the Lions. However at this stage we don't need another work horse lock, we need some dynamite in the backs. Ford looked pretty good and got that backline moving.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:53 pm

RR, I was thinking more of the selection of Henderson who just might be fit to clean Joe's boots.

Agree about Ford though, on yesterdays form he should have been a shoe-in for the Lions

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by robbo277 on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:58 pm

So how is Eddie going to pick an EPS?

Tight five is looking strong: Mako, Marler, Genge, Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie, Cole and Sinckler making up the front row options with Launchbury, Itoje, Kruis and Lawes in the second rows.

Back row is more interesting. Robshaw and Billy Vunipola will be there, as probably will be Haskell and Hughes. There's then probably two flanker spots for Underhill, Wilson, Tom Curry, Ben Curry, Clifford and Jones to fight over. Wood is probably done. There's one more game, and it will be interesting to see if anyone else gets a run-out.

Scrum half will probably be Youngs and Care with Maunder outside the squad but as third choice.

Fly halves and centres are interesting - with Farrell, Slade and Lozowski knocking about we'll have to consider these 6 spots together. Ford, Farrell and Joseph are all in, as probably are Te'o and Slade. But then you have Lozowski, Mallinder and Marchant all looking for the final spots. Marchant was very unlucky to miss this tour, getting injured at the wrong time.

Back three and the guys with the Lions should all make it: Watson, Nowell and Daly, along with May. The option then is do you keep Brown, or do you go for Watson at 15 after his performance there with the Lions? With two more spots, the names in contention would be Brown, Haley, Solomona and Yarde, with Earle and Cokanasiga possibilities).

Possible 33-man EPS:
Forwards (19): Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Marler, Mako Vunipola, Cole, Sinckler, Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Kruis, Robshaw, Haskell, Underhill, Ben Curry, Tom Curry, Billy Vunipola, Hughes.
Backs (14): Youngs, Care, Ford, Lozowski, Farrell, Te'o, Slade, Joseph, Marchant, Nowell, Daly, May, Solomona, Watson.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by BamBam on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 1:02 pm

Alun Wyn Jones would probably get knocked back in the tackle by Launchbury's jockstrap

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 1:12 pm

Much to Beshocked's disgust, I would have Yarde ahead of Solomona at the moment. His try yesterday was brilliant, but his defensive lapses where equally frightening.

Lostinwales mentioned that Yarde's England form is better then club form, I agree, I do not understand why, but he has looked out of sorts and frankly a bit bored when I have seen him in the AP, for England he looks the part, mediocre defence (all our wings are like that or worse except Nowell) but very solid in attack. His strike rate proves it, without the benefit of continual squad selection and therefore bonding and building an understanding with the other squad players, he still has one of the best strike rates in international rugby and against all standards of opposition, I seem to remember him getting a couple against the ABs


Last edited by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 1:17 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 1:13 pm

BamBam wrote:Alun Wyn Jones would probably get knocked back in the tackle by Launchbury's jockstrap

I had heard rumours about his laundry standards being a bit below par

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 1:18 pm

And Mark Wilson was very good, added physicality and great at the breakdown. I thought the pack on a whole was quite balanced even though we did struggle at the scrum.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Guest on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 1:42 pm

This looked like an amazingly entertaining game. Good to see England with talent in depth.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Exiledinborders on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 2:36 pm

robbo277 wrote:So how is Eddie going to pick an EPS?

Tight five is looking strong: Mako, Marler, Genge, Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie, Cole and Sinckler making up the front row options with Launchbury, Itoje, Kruis and Lawes in the second rows.

Back row is more interesting. Robshaw and Billy Vunipola will be there, as probably will be Haskell and Hughes. There's then probably two flanker spots for Underhill, Wilson, Tom Curry, Ben Curry, Clifford and Jones to fight over. Wood is probably done. There's one more game, and it will be interesting to see if anyone else gets a run-out.

Scrum half will probably be Youngs and Care with Maunder outside the squad but as third choice.

Fly halves and centres are interesting - with Farrell, Slade and Lozowski knocking about we'll have to consider these 6 spots together. Ford, Farrell and Joseph are all in, as probably are Te'o and Slade. But then you have Lozowski, Mallinder and Marchant all looking for the final spots. Marchant was very unlucky to miss this tour, getting injured at the wrong time.

Back three and the guys with the Lions should all make it: Watson, Nowell and Daly, along with May. The option then is do you keep Brown, or do you go for Watson at 15 after his performance there with the Lions? With two more spots, the names in contention would be Brown, Haley, Solomona and Yarde, with Earle and Cokanasiga possibilities).

Possible 33-man EPS:
Forwards (19): Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Marler, Mako Vunipola, Cole, Sinckler, Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Kruis, Robshaw, Haskell, Underhill, Ben Curry, Tom Curry, Billy Vunipola, Hughes.
Backs (14): Youngs, Care, Ford, Lozowski, Farrell, Te'o, Slade, Joseph, Marchant, Nowell, Daly, May, Solomona, Watson.
Solomona need to improve his defence before he can be in serious consideration for anything other than a development tour.

The Currys look very good but need to bulk up a bit playing the better international sides.

I do not know how good Piers Francis is so do not know if he will be in squad. I would probably consider Devoto before Marchant. He was looking increasingly good last season, combining power and skill.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 3:02 pm

Francis looked very on the ball in his brief cameo, see the interaction with Ford for his try. Saints may have got themselves a new star in the making Fingers Crossed , given the dearth of options at 10 and possibly 12 he may get in as 2nd ranking 10 although it will be third in line with Farrell around. If Farrell is out for some reason, it would be an interesting fight between Francis and Lozowski for the playmaker 12 spot

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by king_carlos on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 3:43 pm

The EPS has been extended to 45 man under Jones and has included a lot of younger players who haven't been in the 'training squads' selected for matches/tournaments but are in the EPS for exposure.

So the EPS selection is actually less indicative than it used to be of who's going to be in the squad for the Autumn Internationals and 6 Nations.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by robbo277 on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 3:51 pm

Oh I do remember reading that actually, and there's no Saxons EPS?

Well I guess that's a potential Autumn test squad then.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by king_carlos on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 3:55 pm

For the sake of a Sunday discussion though, if I were picking a fixed size 33 man squad (same scenario as a RWC squad shall we say) for the AIs right now it would look something like below. Presuming no injuries of course for the sake of pointless Sunday distractions Smile

1.Marler, Mako, Genge
2.Hartley, George, Taylor
3.Cole, Sinckler, Hill
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5.Kruis, Lawes
6.Robshaw, Haskell
7.Underhill, T Curry
8.Vunipola, Hughes

9.Youngs, Care, Robson
10.Ford, Slade

11.Nowell, May
12.Farrell, Te'o
13.Joseph, Daly
14.Watson, Wade
15.Brown

Obviously Wade wouldn't be selected and Maunder is ahead of Robson but just what I'd select. Replacing Wade for a more realistic squad I'd pick Yarde. I rate Maunder but think Robson is a better player.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by king_carlos on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 3:56 pm

robbo277 wrote:Oh I do remember reading that actually, and there's no Saxons EPS?

Well I guess that's a potential Autumn test squad then.

Nope there's no Saxons announcement with the EPS. I can't actually remember if this was the case previously as well to be honest.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 3:59 pm

robbo277 wrote:Oh I do remember reading that actually, and there's no Saxons EPS?

Well I guess that's a potential Autumn test squad then.

Aye, there will be a big EPS, then a few weeks out from the relevant start reduced size AI and 6Ns squads.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 6:33 pm

Impressive stats from Wilson, Launchbury and Hughes. The latter made 50+ metres with the former 30 each. Wilson also topped the tackle stats with 16 completed and one missed.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by eirebilly on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 6:53 pm

I watched the game yesterday and I was very impressed with England. Argentina are a very strong team and are able to run it from anywhere. England countered very well and it made for one of the most entertaining matches I have seen for some time.

There is some serious talent coming through in England and I cant help but think that Lancaster deserves some credit for that.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 6:55 pm

Launchbury continues to make a mockery of Gatland's decision to leave him behind.

Since when was Ford able to nail 50 metre kicks?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 11:12 pm

What did people think of Hartley. I thought he was poor.

I don't think his performance would have impressed Jones.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 11:34 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Dave, I can see where you are coming from but I can't quite agree. Playing both gives England the chance to mix it up, play a number of styles and keep the opposition guessing, playing only one dictates the style as neither can replicate each others strengths to the same effect. Until we have an option that can be both as controlling as Farrell and as aware as Ford, I think they are still our best combo.

I like Teo as an alternative style of play, but I would not have Slade in the side at JJ's expense, he has been our best attacking back for the last couple of seasons, his pace an ability to get outside defenders is second to none in the 6N anyway. If Slade plays, I would see it at 12 carrying out a Farrell like job with more finesse, but less edge.


Playing both leads to confusion about how we want to play. England were mediocre in attack through the 6 Nations apart from the home game against Scotland. I think you have to look at the 10, 12, 13 combination when this happens over a number of games. Ford and Farrell both want to be running the attack, but have different styles. I am now quite suspicious that Farrell's presence in the side makes Ford play worse. Also, Farrell can't truck it up - when the forwards were struggling for quick ball against Ireland the backs had nowhere to go.

England are lucky - we have two exceptional fly-halfs (and an excellent 3rd choice player in Lozowski, not to mention a horde of 10s approaching from the u20s). We should pick one of Ford and Farrell to play 10 and have the other on the bench, as we are also lucky to have a profusion of options coming through at 12 (when you said we had a dearth at 10 and 12 I had to check my understanding of the definition of the word!).

Joseph is decent in attack, but I think his real strength is his defence. I think we can do better at 13, but the main reason I would remove him is I think we need a play-maker and a lump in the midfield, and he doesn't quite meet either definition. If Devoto or Mallinder can take the 12 shirt then I'd say we have a lot more freedom at 13 (personally I'd go with Daly, but JJ is obviously a strong contender).

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by TightHEAD on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 12:27 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:What did people think of Hartley. I thought he was poor.

I don't think his performance would have impressed Jones.

I though he was very very poor, time to pick George as first choice and see if that Sparks Him ofterwise he is finished as an international.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by beshocked on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 9:00 am

Well Past it to be fair to Yarde he took his try well. I feel like he was very lucky to be selected but now he's in he'll keep his spot for now.

Solomona's try was better though. Let's not forget Solomona is still relatively new to rugby union.

Solomona might have been caught out defensively but he still showed the potential he is in attack.


Launchbury and Hughes maintain their good form.


Good result for England.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Recwatcher16 on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 9:35 am

Solomon's scored an impressive try but I fail to see him as better than Rokoduguni.

Roko is the most lethal finisher in the AP bar none. He is quicker and has a fend off akin to an iron bar and opposition AP wingers are terrified of him.
If his defence is believed to be suspect at Test level and Solomona is to receive coaching attention on this, why not Roko ?

Eddie Jones really is going to have a barrel load of choices in all positions come the autumn, although I have no doubt he recognises the currently callow nature of some players but the potential appears to be there to be nutured and Jones is going to leave some legacy when he goes.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by beshocked on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 9:50 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:Solomon's scored an impressive try but I fail to see him as better than Rokoduguni.

Roko is the most lethal finisher in the AP bar none. He is quicker and has a fend off akin to an iron bar and opposition AP wingers are terrified of him.
If his defence is believed to be suspect at Test level and Solomona is to receive coaching attention on this, why not Roko ?

Eddie Jones really is going to have a barrel load of choices in all positions come the autumn, although I have no doubt he recognises the currently callow nature of some players but the potential appears to be there to be nutured and Jones is going to leave some legacy when he goes.


Nah, Wade is the most lethal finisher in the AP....

Solomona's strike rate in the AP was better than Roko's too this year.


Jones seems to ignore AP form anyway.


I don't know why the coaches aren't telling Brown that he needs to pass the ball.

Still need more options at 15.

You could argue the increase of distributors in midfield is because Brown doesn't pass but surely he needs to?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by BamBam on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 9:53 am

Solomona can't be in the team until he fixes his defence, I don't care how good he is with ball in hand - if it applies to Wade it applies to Solomona even if he is 6 inches taller and 10kg heavier, Wade would not have made the same mistakes because he has the positioning

Agree with everyone else that Brown and Hartley may be finished in an England shirt, if Watson impresses again for the Lions its very difficult not to play him at FB in the autumn.


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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Poorfour on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:07 am

beshocked wrote:
I don't know why the coaches aren't telling Brown that he needs to pass the ball.

Still need more options at 15.

You could argue the increase of distributors in midfield is because Brown doesn't pass but surely he needs to?

Ball retention. One of Brown's big advantages is that his strength in the tackle means he gets the ball back cleanly more reliably than England's other backs.

I am pretty certain that Eddie's instruction to Brown is along the lines of "attack when you can, pass when it's on, but if it doesn't look like it's on, get the ball back safely and we will reset." There were several times in Saturday's game where he could have passed to a player outside him, but the defence was covering and he looked, then went into contact and recycled quickly. There were also a couple of occasions when he erred too much on the side of caution - but mostly he took it into contact because contact was inevitable.

I can't imagine that Eddie would retain him in the side if he were doing something Eddie didn't want.

Watson's performance on Saturday morning was very exciting and points the way to the future - but I suspect he will need to show that he can reliably retain possession under pressure to get the shirt.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:11 am

Didn't see the lions game.

Was Watson at FB or Wing?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by BamBam on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:12 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Didn't see the lions game.

Was Watson at FB or Wing?

Came on at FB when Hogg went off and had a decent game

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by eirebilly on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:14 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:What did people think of Hartley. I thought he was poor.

I don't think his performance would have impressed Jones.

I didn't think he was too poor to be honest but he was not great. The fact that George is doing well in NZ with the Lions may well force Jones' hand in the AI's though.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:16 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Didn't see the lions game.

Was Watson at FB or Wing?

Full back, his pace on the kick chase is frightening.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:17 am

When Hogg went off, Liam Williams was kept on the wing with Watson coming off the bench to play full back. It does suggest that the management view Williams as a contender for wing only - and perhaps along with North a front runner. Watson is a better defender at FB than he is on the wing, but EJ does like his attacking threat stepping in off the wing. Will be interesting to see what Eddie does in the autumn as he has name checked guys like Daly, Slade, Lozowski and Mallinder as potential FBs, while only selecting Brown (bar one Goode game).

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by eirebilly on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:20 am

I do think that Brown is on the downward slide for England. Great player in his day but he is not the best 15 England can put out I feel. Watson looked great at 15 against the Crusaders.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:22 am

It's going to be one of Watson or Daly to step back to 15 surely? Gatland could do england z favour by picking Watson at full back in a test vs nz and help see if it's on or not.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:22 am

eirebilly wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:What did people think of Hartley. I thought he was poor.

I don't think his performance would have impressed Jones.

I didn't think he was too poor to be honest but he was not great. The fact that George is doing well in NZ with the Lions may well force Jones' hand in the AI's though.

I thought he was very poor to be honest Billy. There was nothing In that performance that George, Tommy Taylor or even LCD could not have shown more.

I genuinely think his time has come...and his "efficiency" at the lineout and hooker job is not enough. The afore mentioned are all strong or developing in those areas and offer much more around the park.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by eirebilly on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:26 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:What did people think of Hartley. I thought he was poor.

I don't think his performance would have impressed Jones.

I didn't think he was too poor to be honest but he was not great. The fact that George is doing well in NZ with the Lions may well force Jones' hand in the AI's though.

I thought he was very poor to be honest Billy. There was nothing In that performance that George, Tommy Taylor or even LCD could not have shown more.

I genuinely think his time has come...and his "efficiency" at the lineout and hooker job is not enough. The afore mentioned are all strong or developing in those areas and offer much more around the park.

I still think he has something to offer England but maybe not as starting 2 as I do believe that George will be starting ahead of him very soon. When on form, he a very good 2.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:29 am

Problem is though that George is looking tired (to me) and his form at the end of teh season was well below that he had shown for teh first 2/3s, while LCD and Taylor are injured. I sincerely hope all 3 are fit and firing next season (though George will start his season later than the rest) and that Jones is given a real nudge.

Captaincy is of course another issue.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by eirebilly on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:33 am

I actually like the idea of Launchbury for Captain myself LT. He is a very good leader and an excellent player that leads from the front. Still cannot understand why he was not selected for the Lions.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by robbo277 on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:35 am

Poorfour wrote:
beshocked wrote:
I don't know why the coaches aren't telling Brown that he needs to pass the ball.

Still need more options at 15.

You could argue the increase of distributors in midfield is because Brown doesn't pass but surely he needs to?

Ball retention. One of Brown's big advantages is that his strength in the tackle means he gets the ball back cleanly more reliably than England's other backs.

I am pretty certain that Eddie's instruction to Brown is along the lines of "attack when you can, pass when it's on, but if it doesn't look like it's on, get the ball back safely and we will reset." There were several times in Saturday's game where he could have passed to a player outside him, but the defence was covering and he looked, then went into contact and recycled quickly. There were also a couple of occasions when he erred too much on the side of caution - but mostly he took it into contact because contact was inevitable.

I can't imagine that Eddie would retain him in the side if he were doing something Eddie didn't want.

Watson's performance on Saturday morning was very exciting and points the way to the future - but I suspect he will need to show that he can reliably retain possession under pressure to get the shirt.

But is he asking Brown to do that because that's what he thinks a fullback should do, or is he asking Brown to do that because he's the only real option at fullback and that's all he thinks Brown can do? Similar to selecting Haskell at 7 and asking him to run full speed into ball carriers (when defending) and rucks (when attacking) and doing little else.

With players like Underhill coming through with similar physicality and then improved breakdown skills, Haskell might find his time in the 7 shirt is numbered. He's not going to reinvent himself and there's someone who can come in and give us a more rounded skill set.

The same is true for Brown. If there is a player with the "basics" (catch, run, kick) at a similar level to Brown's and can also add a passing game, a more threatening running game or a greater kicking game, then that player should come in.

I'd argue with Brown's performance, the worst aspect wasn't the refusal to pass, it was the way his basics weren't up to the usual level - a couple of errors under the high ball and a kick out on the fall. Yes, it's only one game where his basics have been substandard, but his position was already under threat.

I'd rather see Watson or Daly assessing the play and making breaks or passing ahead of contact than Brown's head down, few metres and recycle. Useful skill though it is, it doesn't look like he's ever really looking for opportunities, or if he is he either isn't seeing them or isn't backing his skill level to execute them. Either way, we need more going forward.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:41 am

eirebilly wrote:I actually like the idea of Launchbury for Captain myself LT. He is a very good leader and an excellent player that leads from the front. Still cannot understand why he was not selected for the Lions.

Problem is that with Kruis, Lawes and Itoje available, there is serious competition for the starting shirt.

Robshaw and Ford were co-captains against the Barbarians.
Care and Brown (with Ford) vice captains for thsi tour.
Brown, Farrell and Billy vice captains in the 6Ns.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by englandglory4ever on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:42 am

eirebilly wrote:I do think that Brown is on the downward slide for England. Great player in his day but he is not the best 15 England can put out I feel. Watson looked great at 15 against the Crusaders.

Watson never once had to take a high ball in close contact which is where Brown excels. Even Halfpenny couldn't do it against the Highlanders last week and let in a try. I agree though, generally Watson looked very sharp.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by eirebilly on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:57 am

LondonTiger wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I actually like the idea of Launchbury for Captain myself LT. He is a very good leader and an excellent player that leads from the front. Still cannot understand why he was not selected for the Lions.

Problem is that with Kruis, Lawes and Itoje available, there is serious competition for the starting shirt.

Robshaw and Ford were co-captains against the Barbarians.
Care and Brown (with Ford) vice captains for thsi tour.
Brown, Farrell and Billy vice captains in the 6Ns.

There is certainly some healthy competition but I do believe that Launchbury is the better option than Lawes. Itoje is another good option for captaincy.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by eirebilly on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 10:58 am

englandglory4ever wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I do think that Brown is on the downward slide for England. Great player in his day but he is not the best 15 England can put out I feel. Watson looked great at 15 against the Crusaders.

Watson never once had to take a high ball in close contact which is where Brown excels. Even Halfpenny couldn't do it against the Highlanders last week and let in a try. I agree though, generally Watson looked very sharp.

That is true but I have seen Watson at club level 15 under the high ball and he has not looked too bad. I just think he is a better fullback than winger.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 11:09 am

I think theres plenty of potential Captains LT, certainly its not a case now that Hartley has to be selected due to a lack of leadership...

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

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