Argentina vs England, 1st Test

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Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 3:49 pm

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Match Details

Venue: Estadio del Bicentenario, San Juan
Date: Saturday 10th June
Time: 20:15 BST
TV: BBC2



Officials

Referee - Nigel Owens (Wales)
Ass 1 - John Lacey (Ireland)
Ass 2 - Egon Seconds (SA)
TMO - Aaron Paterson (NZ)


Teams

Argentina - 15 Joaquin Tuculet, 14 Matias Moroni, 13 Matias Orlando, 12 Jeronimo de la Fuente, 11 Emiliano Boffelli, 10 Nicolas Sanchez, 9 Martin Landajo, 1 Lucas Noguera Paz, 2 Agustin Creevy (c), 3 Enrique Pieretto, 4 Matias Alemanno, 5 Tomas Lavanini, 6 Pablo Matera, 7 Javier Ortega Desio, 8 Juan Manuel Leguizamon.

Replacements: 16 Julian Montoya, 17 Santiago Garcia Botta, 18 Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro, 19 Guido Petti, 20 Leonardo Senatore, 21 Gonzalo Bertranou, 22 Juan Martin Hernandez, 23 Ramiro Moyano.



England - 15 Mike Brown, 14 Marland Yarde, 13 Henry Slade, 12 Alex Lozowski, 11 Jonny May, 10 George Ford, 9 Danny Care; 1 Ellis Genge, 2 Dylan Hartley (c), 3 Harry Williams, 4 Joe Launchbury, 5 Charlie Ewels, 6 Mark Wilson, 7 Tom Curry, 8 Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: 16 Jack Singleton, 17 Matt Mullan, 18 Will Collier, 19 Nick Isiekwe, 20 Don Armand, 21 Jack Maunder, 22 Piers Francis, 23 Denny Solomona.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 11:15 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think theres plenty of potential Captains LT, certainly its not a case now that Hartley has to be selected due to a lack of leadership...

There are a lot of people gaining leadership experience, but the real point of the list I produced was to show that there are doubts over their starting spots over most of them.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by robbo277 on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 11:24 am

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I think theres plenty of potential Captains LT, certainly its not a case now that Hartley has to be selected due to a lack of leadership...

There are a lot of people gaining leadership experience, but the real point of the list I produced was to show that there are doubts over their starting spots over most of them.

Would a team of: Mako, George, Cole, Launchbury/Itoje, Kruis, Robshaw, Underhill, Billy, Youngs, Ford, Daly, Farrell, Joseph, Nowell, Watson lack leadership? I think most people would have 12 of these names in their starting 15 at least.

Only George and Underhill are inexperienced in the pack, and also you have plenty of leaders with Cole looking after the scrum, Kruis calling the line-out, Launchbury or Itoje as natural leaders, Robshaw a former captain and Billy Vunipola as a current vice-captain.

In the backs, you have a settled backline (it's the 2017 6N backline with Watson in for Brown) and Youngs, Ford and Farrell have all been in the leadership group since Jones took over.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 11:30 am

Who would be your captain in that line-up Robbo?

I agree that overall leadership is getting much better, such that we should be in a position where that does not become a criteria for a player being selected - however I still struggle to see who the long term skipper should be. Probably between Farrell and BillyV - but one is injured and the other may play 12, may play 10 or indeed if Ford shows increasing reliability from the tee may be on the bench.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by robbo277 on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 12:24 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Who would be your captain in that line-up Robbo?

I agree that overall leadership is getting much better, such that we should be in a position where that does not become a criteria for a player being selected - however I still struggle to see who the long term skipper should be. Probably between Farrell and BillyV - but one is injured and the other may play 12, may play 10 or indeed if Ford shows increasing reliability from the tee may be on the bench.

It's a good question, and possible a series captain may be more appropriate than picking the next long-term candidate. Or it might be worth Jones biting the bullet on someone like Itoje and say "I believe in this guy as a player and a captain, he's my skipper" and hope he can carry on performing at a level to merit inclusion.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 12:27 pm

Picking any of the locks is a bit tricky, on current form Itoje would struggle to get into the side and I just think it limits selection somewhat in an area of real strength.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Exiledinborders on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 12:30 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Who would be your captain in that line-up Robbo?

I agree that overall leadership is getting much better, such that we should be in a position where that does not become a criteria for a player being selected - however I still struggle to see who the long term skipper should be. Probably between Farrell and BillyV - but one is injured and the other may play 12, may play 10 or indeed if Ford shows increasing reliability from the tee may be on the bench.
I see Itoje as the future captain.

As for Farrell there is zero chance of him being on the bench. The factor that determines whether he plays ten or twelve is the relative strength of the other options at ten or twelve. To date Ford has been considered better at ten than any option at twelve. England now seem to have better players at twelve and I expect Farrell to switch to ten and Ford to drop to the bench.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 12:35 pm

I don't see Jones dropping Ford to accommodate Farrell at 10 to be honest nor do I see any of the options at 12 getting selected at the expense of either of them.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by lostinwales on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 12:50 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Who would be your captain in that line-up Robbo?

I agree that overall leadership is getting much better, such that we should be in a position where that does not become a criteria for a player being selected - however I still struggle to see who the long term skipper should be. Probably between Farrell and BillyV - but one is injured and the other may play 12, may play 10 or indeed if Ford shows increasing reliability from the tee may be on the bench.
I see Itoje as the future captain.

As for Farrell there is zero chance of him being on the bench. The factor that determines whether he plays ten or twelve is the relative strength of the other options at ten or twelve. To date Ford has been considered better at ten than any option at twelve.  England now seem to have better players at twelve and I expect Farrell to switch to ten and Ford to drop to the bench.  

2019 is almost certainly too soon and we'll probably still be using Robshaw at 6 for years but I do wonder if we'll end up with Mercer at 6 and captain.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by robbo277 on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 12:51 pm

The thing is, Jones will be much clearer in his thinking than us, because he is closer to the players, but also it's just his opinion, and he doesn't have a forum of people making point and counterpoint.

I'd hope he is comfortable enough dropping Hartley and Brown if he deems (like many of us) that they don't warrant selection, and then picks a captain from the team he'll pick.

E.g. if he is going to start Itoje, Launchbury, Billy Vunipola or Owen Farrell, he can pick one of them. If he isn't, he can't, and can pick from Robshaw, Ford or Youngs etc.

I guess it's not ideal to be changing your captain every series, but if he drops Hartley he could pick a captain for the Autumn and stick for the 6 Nations, and then give someone else a full year in lead-up to the 2019 World Cup.

I definitely think there's enough experience in the team that it isn't a deciding factor for Brown. He might be tempted to give Hartley one more go though because of the leadership, I guess it depends how he and George start the season.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by beshocked on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 12:56 pm

I think Brown and Hartley's form has partly suffered also because of complacency - their starting spots have been effectively set in stone.

Jones has made them undroppable.

If both players are forced to improve their form, it might galvanise them.

Compare this to lock where with 4 very strong locks, a starting slot isn't assured which has pushed each player to continue to have to perform or face being dropped.

Lawes looked down and out a year ago but fast forward a year, he's playing well again. Launchbury is playing well and he's overlooked for the Lions.

If Itoje doesn't raise his game he'll miss out.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 12:59 pm

Regarding early season form before the AIs - does anyone know when the Lions players will be able to start playing again?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Poorfour on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 1:18 pm

beshocked wrote:I think Brown and Hartley's form has partly suffered also because of complacency - their starting spots have been effectively set in stone.

Jones has made them undroppable.

You level that accusation regularly when a coach keeps picking players you don't personally like. It's an easy thing to say but there isn't any evidence for it.

I don't know about Hartley, but everything I know about Jones and Brown tells me that complacency is unlikely to be a problem. Brown is a guy who pays for an extra coach out of his own pocket to work on his speed and biomechanics. How many players do you know of who do that?

Jones is famous for pushing his players harder than almost any other coach and for dropping players who don't meet his standards, but also for not handing out caps easily. He is in the papers today quoted as saying that they will behave in camp as if they had lost on Saturday and look for everything they can improve.

It's also nonsense that there is no competition for the 2 and 15 shirts. Yes, Alex Goode has dropped out of the picture, but Nowell, Watson, Daly and others are all realistic contenders, as Watson demonstrated on Saturday morning. If you honestly think Eddie wouldn't put one of them at fullback if he thought they would deliver what he is asking for, or that he's not pushing them to demonstrate those skills, then I don't think you've paid enough attention.

At hooker, the competition is even more clear cut. Jamie George offers clear advantages as a hooker - but clearly to Eddie's mind there are reasons to bench him rather than start him. One of them is that he values Hartley's captaincy more than he values the technical gains from George. Another possibility is that George bolsters some of Mako's weaknesses in the scrum, so it makes sense to have them on the pitch together.

"Complacency" is a lazy criticism unless you've got some evidence to suggest it.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 2:01 pm

If underhill plays well its going to give jones a massive headache in regards to the bench. Assuming you'd have haskell Robshaw Hughes underhill trying to fill 2 positions and one for ghe bench.

Without considering how impressive curry had been and the fact his brother is supposed to be better.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 2:10 pm

If only Itoje excelled at 6 and could make that his prime position then everything would be rosey.

Alas he's a lock and only a lock.

I still have a feeling Jones first choice combo is Itoje and Kruis.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 2:15 pm

Itoje is playing himself into a bench role of late, he's not been great.

Kruis is our best lock imo and Lawes/Launch have been excellent. Plenty of choices for Jones.

I don't think Brown and Hartley are complacent, I just they coming to the end of their respective Int careers and don't hugely suit our high tempo style.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by BamBam on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 2:18 pm

Can't wait to hear how right certain posters were when Jamie George overtakes Hartley and performs very well at international level.

Completely ignoring the fact that everyone agreed George is a very good hooker and would eventually be an excellent starter once Hartley was moved aside and the team was ready for a new captain

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by robbo277 on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 2:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:If underhill plays well its going to give jones a massive headache in regards to the bench. Assuming you'd have haskell Robshaw Hughes underhill trying to fill 2 positions and one for ghe bench.

Without considering how impressive curry had been and the fact his brother is supposed to be better.

Jones could go 6/2, but he has 4 locks and 5 back row to fill a normally 7 or 8 positions at a push. It's a good problem to have, as opposed to the 6 Nations when he was trying to fill flanker spots with locks, 8s and Tom Wood.

One thinks there's likely to be injuries that make it clearer for him, and also provide "natural rotation", so he can assess all of his options more closely over the next year.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 2:33 pm

We don't have any uncompetitive positions. That's not the same as saying we have excellence everywhere, and competition doesn't guarantee that overall standards rise.

For me, Brown and Hartley are the last players likely to be complacent. Brown could use a break and a proper pre-season if he wants to make it to the World Cup. It's probably no bad thing he's not on the Lions tour, although he might have fancied it as a career highlight.

Hartley started to play himself back into form at the end of the season, so it's a surprise to see him looking a bit at sea. He can't afford too many performances like that.

Lawes is finally fulfilling the potential he showed back in 2010. Some of that may be responding to the challenge from other locks. Most of it is simply down to being fit.

Asked to provide a brief synopsis of his injury history, Northampton and England lock Courtney Lawes takes a deep breath. “It’s a long list: I’ve had a stress fracture [to the shin], five torn medial ligaments which were about six weeks each, shoulders, bad ankles, ankle operations, bits of bone in both ankles removed.”

He missed a few too. There is also a recurring groin problem and a handful of concussions, which come as standard these days. If you want to know why it has taken Lawes the best part of a decade to deliver on the world-class potential first spoken about by Martin Johnson in 2010 then here is your answer.

The 28-year-old was outstanding in this year’s Six Nations, making 70 tackles and 48 carries. His previous highest marks in seven years of playing in the tournament were 38 and 32. There is no great mystery as to why he is peaking this season. “Honestly, it is just being able to stay fit,” Lawes said. “It’s the most rugby I’ve had in probably my entire career. The little nuances you get out of games makes a big difference to repeatedly play and get better every game.

“I’ve come a long way in a year. It’s great just to be able to get back to some kind of form and stay fit for this amount of time.”

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by beshocked on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 3:13 pm

Poorfour Hartley and Brown have been undroppable though.

Jones could have started other plays at hooker and full back but hasn't.

It's not as if Hartley and Brown have been in barnstorming form.

I liked Brown in 2014, thought he was excellent but his form has gradually dipped since then and he's not making the line breaks or decision making he used to.

No, they aren't realistic contenders when Brown owns the 15 shirt.

Hartley has been generally reliable in the set piece but when you have a hooker like George who is effective in set piece and around the park, you have to go with George.



One big problem with Launchbury is that he can't run a lineout. Not surprising that the lineout faltered against Argentina with lineout coach, Borthwick, Kruis,Lawes and Itoje all missing.

Hooker and Full Back aren't competitive if only 1 player is being picked to start.

Bambam the problem is some posters (not all) such as yourself want to hold George back.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 3:18 pm

Is it true Launchbury can't run a lineout? I'm assuming it would be isiekwe running it if Ewell goes off?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Poorfour on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 3:46 pm

No beshocked, they haven't been undroppable, at least not in the sense that I think you mean. They haven't been dropped, but that is not the same thing.

Eddie has not shown any qualms about dropping players who don't meet his standards. Paul Hill has dropped down the pecking order compared to Sinckler. Alex Goode has been dropped altogether. Tom Wood was unceremoniously dropped (I heard that the call went "you're not in my squad because you're not good enough and you haven't been good enough for two years") but worked his way back into consideration.

Launchbury was inked in to most people's teamsheets but Itoje took the shirt when he was injured and has been first choice ever since. Marler took a break and then had to work his way back into the starting shirt.

Eddie has not shown much sentimentality in his selections. There's no basis for saying that anyone in any position is "undroppable" other than that it's a word you reach for when you see someone being consistently picked in a position where you would like to see someone else.

Unless you've got evidence that Brown has a photo of Eddie with a sheep on his mobile or something similar, all "undroppable" means is that there is no-one else Eddie thinks is currently capable of doing a better job. He may be looking at different things than you are. but a 95% win rate suggests that maybe he knows what he's doing.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 4:29 pm

Good Arguments Poorfour

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 4:41 pm

Hartley and Brown will be phased out this coming year, as will Robshaw and Haskell. Jones is quite brutal and we need better for 2019.

Launchbury doesn't run the line, at least not to a good standard. Itoje has ran the line but he's struggled with this imo, Kruis is world class in this aspect.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 4:52 pm

Guys,

It is obvious that certain players are undroppable. the following have all started every England test they have been available for since EJ took over:

Hartley, Brown, Cole, Farrell, Robshaw & Kruis (Admittedly these last two have missed a lot due to injury).
Steps should be taken immediately and none of these players should play for England again in 2017. We should perhaps also add George Ford to the mix as he was dropped to the bench for just 30 minutes.

Despite giving debuts to 22 different players, Eddie Jones is obviously not building any depth with his short sighted selection policy.


Eddie Jones Debutants XV
Genge, Taylor, Sinckler, Itoje, Ewells, Wilson, Harrison, Clifford, Maunder, Francis, Solomona, Devoto, Te'o, Daly, Lozowski

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by lostinwales on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 6:31 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hartley and Brown will be phased out this coming year, as will Robshaw and Haskell. Jones is quite brutal and we need better for 2019.

Launchbury doesn't run the line, at least not to a good standard. Itoje has ran the line but he's struggled with this imo, Kruis is world class in this aspect.

Hartley possibly, but then we need an established 3rd choice to move up when we don't.
Brown very possibly.
Robshaw - currently playing as well as he ever has. He won't last forever but is still going strong.
Haskell - very dependent on the foot injury. We don't have anyone else who can do the job he's been doing, its just a question of deciding if we need someone to do that.


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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 6:42 pm

I've never been a huge fan of Robshaw and we're seeing more dynamic players coming through that will soon be better players. I actually think Wilson adds more qualities but needs experience at the top level to see if he's up to it.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 6:48 pm

eirebilly wrote:

There is certainly some healthy competition but I do believe that Launchbury is the better option than Lawes. Itoje is another good option for captaincy.

I actually think Lawes is the form English lock right now. With the backrows stacking up I'm not sure Jones will pick Itoje (or Lawes, who was on record again recently saying he prefers playing 6) at blindside - this means a very good lock won't make the matchday squad in the autumn.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 6:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's going to be one of Watson or Daly to step back to 15 surely? Gatland could do england z favour by picking Watson at full back in a test vs nz and help see if it's on or not.

I'd thought that, and Watson is now clearly ahead out of the two of them, but I hope Jones takes a look at Lozowski at FB this weekend - he is one of the fastest backs in the English game, he is an excellent defender, and he has a superb skillset. Unless he can reinvent himself as a 12 for Sarries (unlikely, given Barrett's role in the squad, and given the way Sarries set up) I think this is his best chance of nailing an England place, and he'd be an interesting contrast to Watson.

Daly, like JJ, must be worried he is losing ground slightly whilst on tour.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 7:00 pm

A lot is being made of one game and Daly in particular is a clear favourite of Jones' and will continue to feature as long as he's fit, his versatility and long range boot set him aside from the rest. JJ is the best all round 13 we have, can be deadly in attack and rock solid in defence; Slade and Lozowski will be involved in the squad but can't see either of them breaking into the starting XV any time soon.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 7:07 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't see Jones dropping Ford to accommodate Farrell at 10 to be honest nor do I see any of the options at 12 getting selected at the expense of either of them.

In which case I think England will struggle to improve their back play. Ford and Farrell have different styles, and they undermine each other and our attacking game if they play 10 and 12. I don't think the All Blacks put their two best FHs at 10 and 12 do they? Alternate them if necessary, but make a choice between Ford and Farrell and develop a couple of proper options at 12 (good players who know that ultimately the team's attacking play is usually dictated by the 10).

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 7:16 pm

Who are these proper options at 12 then?

Every name i've seen mentioned is another fly half who can play there just like Farrell and I think the whole point of having two play makers is that they do have different styles otherwise you might as well just have one.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 7:21 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Who are these proper options at 12 then?

Every name i've seen mentioned is another fly half who can play there just like Farrell and I think the whole point of having two play makers is that they do have different styles otherwise you might as well just have one.

Farrell, Francis, Loz, Devoto, Te'o, Slade.........missed anyone?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 7:26 pm

Farrell, Lozowski, Francis and Slade are all fly halves who can play at inside centre are they not?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 7:32 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Farrell, Lozowski, Francis and Slade are all fly halves who can play at inside centre are they not?

Francis is a 12 who plays FH.......so: Francis, Devoto, Te'o.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 8:37 pm

Agree dave. He did look very good when he got the chance for Saracens. Given their players at wing and williams now there doubt he would get any opportunity to press his claim though. Out of those Watson seems to now be getting more chances with his club.

Pooly it's not so long ago that the prevalent feeling was that Launchbury was average at all aspects of the lineout and didn't even claim hid fair share. Took the most lineouts in the 6 nations followed by Tipuric I think.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 8:58 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Who are these proper options at 12 then?

Every name i've seen mentioned is another fly half who can play there just like Farrell and I think the whole point of having two play makers is that they do have different styles otherwise you might as well just have one.

Farrell, Francis, Loz, Devoto, Te'o, Slade.........missed anyone?
Jones said he wants to see Manu at 12.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 9:00 pm

Mallinder and James as well.

I'd also say that at the moment Slade is a centre, seeing as he hasn't been able to demonstrate the control needed to even hold down the Chief's 10 shirt.

I think the perfect 12 has the bulk (or possibly the footwork) to break the game line, has the skills to play 10 in a crisis but isn't a frustrated FH who is going to try to impose their vision for the game on the player standing inside them. James is a good example - he is open that he doesn't want to be a FH, but he's played there regularly this season.

So Francis, Devoto, Mallinder, James and Slade are players around the England set-up who I think would happily specialise at 12. T'eo would too but is really only a carrier/off-loader/fixer - he needs a creative 13 outside him if he is to play I think, which probably means Slade, James or possibly Daly. Farrell is clearly a 10, and that's what he wants t be. Lozowski is an interesting one, as he'll never be picked by Sarries to start 10 in a crunch match, and I wonder if Jones' experiment with him at 12 has got him thinking (but then you have the Brad Barrett issue).

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 9:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Agree dave. He did look very good when he got the chance for Saracens.  Given their players at wing and williams now there doubt he would get any opportunity to press his claim though. Out of those Watson seems to now be getting more chances with his club.

Pooly it's not so long ago that the prevalent feeling was that Launchbury was average at all aspects of the lineout and didn't even claim hid fair share. Took the most lineouts in the 6 nations followed by Tipuric I think.

Is it possible they see Williams as a winger (as Gatland seems to do)? If he is there to replace Ashton then Lozowski might get some chances at 15. Goode's England career appears over, and who knows what impact that will have. Sarries will have to manage Lozowski now, as he is clearly in EJ's thoughts, and so being a back up FH might not be enough to keep him happy long-term.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by DaveM on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 9:28 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:A lot is being made of one game and Daly in particular is a clear favourite of Jones' and will continue to feature as long as he's fit, his versatility and long range boot set him aside from the rest. JJ is the best all round 13 we have, can be deadly in attack and rock solid in defence; Slade and Lozowski will be involved in the squad but can't see either of them breaking into the starting XV any time soon.

I don't think Jones sees Daly as a long-term left-wing. His form dipped at the end of the season and now he seems to be struggling for game time. I really like him, but he needs to make a case at FB (where suddenly Watson looks like he might be making a move) or at 13. If Earls, Yarde or Solomona have an outstanding game he could start to get squeezed. Like Slade, if he can't make a convincing case to own a position then all the ability in the world might not guarantee him a long England career.

JJ looks like he is in the midweek team now. I don't think replacing him is a priority (although I prefer Daly), but again if Slade or James plays well it will apply some pressure (Joseph is probably lucky Marchant missed the tour, as EJ seems to rate him).

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 8:02 am

I think you're falling in to the trap and thinking that Jones puts a lot of emphasise on club which he doesn't, it just comes across as a massive over reaction that the players with the Lions are going to find their places under threat.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by beshocked on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 9:31 am

Poorfour well yes, they have been undroppable till actually dropped/out of the team.

Their spots have been set in stone.

Jones might have not shown qualms in dropping players in other cases but in the case of Brown and Hartley - their spots are fully secure regardless for form.

Yes perhaps in Brown's case, there is no one better at the moment but Jones hasn't tried to find anyone better.

Jones needs to experiment at 15, just as he needs to not make the hooker starting shirt exclusive to just 1 player.

Oh and in the absence of Farrell, Jones is trying out other options at 12, something I applaud. I wouldn't have personally picked Lozowski at 12 but that's what he's going for.


Londontiger

Kruis didn't play in the 6 nations though. Other 2nd rows have played in his absence. It hasn't been Kruis starting every single test.

Farrell is not starting for England in Argentina.

Robshaw is also not there so other options are being tried in the backrow.

Don't you get it?

Players being tried in the centres and backrow but only 1 player starting exclusively at 2 and 15.


Jones is still ignoring 2 and 15 despite experimenting in other areas.

If Hartley and Brown were world class then I could understand perhaps not looking at other options but neither are. They both do some things well but I'd say both are limited and not well rounded.

Even in stronger positions, other options are being tried.



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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 9:37 am

So the problem is that Hartley and Brown have always been available.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 9:51 am

Jones wants to win every game so he generally picks his best XV. This happens to include to Hartley and Brown who have always been available for selection.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 9:52 am

Eddie Jones has two criteria for selecting teams:

Primary) Winning the next game
Secondary) Building for 2019


I may not always agree with what he does (I would not have taken quite so many callow youths to Argentina for instance) but there is a reason Eddie has his job and none of us do. He will not be correct all the time, but as we do not have a time machine and we are unable to go back in time and see what a different decision would have made we can never actually be sure what was good or bad.

If Eddie feels that Brown and Hartley are the best players to represent England in the Autumn, when the likes of George, LCD, Taylor, Daly, Watson & Nowell are available to him, I may not agree but I have to accept that is his judgement and he is basing it on his experience and knowledge, and not because he views anyone as undroppable.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 9:56 am

LCD was impressing at the end of the season. Taylor started it well. If these 2 can carry that forward have a good run leading up to the AIS pressure will be on for Hartley.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by robbo277 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 9:56 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So the problem is that Hartley and Brown have always been available.

That's it in a nutshell. There has been a large amount of natural rotation due to injuries and unavailability. This hasn't happened at 2 or 15.

I also would question this statement:

Yes perhaps in Brown's case, there is no one better at the moment but Jones hasn't tried to find anyone better.

It's not that Jones hasn't tried to find anyone better. It's not like he's already booked Mike Brown's plane ticket to Japan in 2019. He has brought other players in the squad. Goode and Haley have both been in squads, and more recently Jason Woodward has had a look in. Similarly, George, Cowan-Dickie and Taylor have all been looked at at hooker.

That Jones hasn't started any of them should let you know that Jones doesn't think any of them can do a better job. I'd disagree that he needs to see them play, that's an unsustainable idea. Jones gets to give out 150 starting caps a year and 600 between World Cups. Experimenting isn't a luxury he has - he needs to back his judgement from watching these guys in training.

Now you might want him to drop both because you prefer others, and I wouldn't disagree. But they haven't been "undroppable", they just haven't been dropped because in Jones' opinion there hasn't been a better option.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 10:03 am

Agree with that. I'll say it again england have too many players and not enough games.

Both a blessing and a curse.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 10:05 am

And I think we're also missing the point that Brown and Hartley have been very good under Jones - they haven't warranted being dropped!

Its only recently some of their performances have been questioned.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 10:09 am

They're both coming to the end. Trouble is you tend to want to avoid a host of debutant in the same team at the same time. Can we give a run at 2 possibly 3 7 14 and 15 and keep winning?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 10:09 am

And another thing not lost on Eddie Jones (something the SH sides do brilliantly) is bringing kids in to a strong settled experienced squad.

Its much easier doing that , than putting a team together with a bunch of newbies...

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

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