Argentina vs England, 1st Test

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Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 3:49 pm

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Match Details

Venue: Estadio del Bicentenario, San Juan
Date: Saturday 10th June
Time: 20:15 BST
TV: BBC2



Officials

Referee - Nigel Owens (Wales)
Ass 1 - John Lacey (Ireland)
Ass 2 - Egon Seconds (SA)
TMO - Aaron Paterson (NZ)


Teams

Argentina - 15 Joaquin Tuculet, 14 Matias Moroni, 13 Matias Orlando, 12 Jeronimo de la Fuente, 11 Emiliano Boffelli, 10 Nicolas Sanchez, 9 Martin Landajo, 1 Lucas Noguera Paz, 2 Agustin Creevy (c), 3 Enrique Pieretto, 4 Matias Alemanno, 5 Tomas Lavanini, 6 Pablo Matera, 7 Javier Ortega Desio, 8 Juan Manuel Leguizamon.

Replacements: 16 Julian Montoya, 17 Santiago Garcia Botta, 18 Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro, 19 Guido Petti, 20 Leonardo Senatore, 21 Gonzalo Bertranou, 22 Juan Martin Hernandez, 23 Ramiro Moyano.



England - 15 Mike Brown, 14 Marland Yarde, 13 Henry Slade, 12 Alex Lozowski, 11 Jonny May, 10 George Ford, 9 Danny Care; 1 Ellis Genge, 2 Dylan Hartley (c), 3 Harry Williams, 4 Joe Launchbury, 5 Charlie Ewels, 6 Mark Wilson, 7 Tom Curry, 8 Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: 16 Jack Singleton, 17 Matt Mullan, 18 Will Collier, 19 Nick Isiekwe, 20 Don Armand, 21 Jack Maunder, 22 Piers Francis, 23 Denny Solomona.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:28 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's not that Wade can't defend, he's just isn't very good....

Really. So that's it. Well thanks for the insight. Any other nuggets you care to share?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup watched him for sale. He doesn't seem to have a massive weakness defensively and certainly impressed in attack. Best record in 2017 and deserves his shot. It was a real point in that you've called on practically every qualified winger from ojo to most recently bassett. I don't get your Christian point.

Long long time ago........

The point is our back line has been ineffective for too long, hence the need for change. Now I don't doubt your man is potent in attack however......DA defensively he is NOT at the races.

Don't worry about the other it was before you were born.


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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Scottrf on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:32 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's not that Wade can't defend, he's just isn't very good....
Yep. Wasps probably would have been better off without his 16 tries in the prem if anything.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:37 pm

After less than half a game.of rugby you've decided that solomona isn't good enough? He showed enough to be looked at again.

I still have no idea what you're on about regards my birth.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:38 pm

And we went a few games unbeaten recently so I think the back line is pretty good.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by beshocked on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who took the most lineouts in the 2017 6 nations? From any country.

Taking a lineout isn't the same as running it. Launchbury has consistently left the responsibility to others.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:After less than half a game.of rugby you've decided that solomona isn't good enough? He showed enough to be looked at again.

I still have no idea what you're on about regards my birth.

No and good.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Scottrf on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:41 pm

Solomona came on into a high tempo match vs a flair team from the bench. It's not his career over.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:43 pm

Ah I got a bit confused when you said lineout rather than calling. I think it's more likely the coaches choose who runs the lineout rather than the players calling dibs. So isiekwe will be calling if Ewell is replaced will he?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:43 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's not that Wade can't defend, he's just isn't very good....

Really. So that's it. Well thanks for the insight. Any other nuggets you care to share?

You constantly champion Wade and I don't think he has the defensive qualities to make it at International level. By me listing why I don't think he's good enough, are you going to change your mind?

It seems to me that you have your opinion and I and the England management have ours, happy to leave it at that really.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:53 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's not that Wade can't defend, he's just isn't very good....
Yep. Wasps probably would have been better off without his 16 tries in the prem if anything.

That doesn't really have anything to do with his inadequacies in defence. The lad can score tries, I've not questioned that.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Scottrf on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:55 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's not that Wade can't defend, he's just isn't very good....
Yep. Wasps probably would have been better off without his 16 tries in the prem if anything.

That doesn't really have anything to do with his inadequacies in defence. The lad can score tries, I've not questioned that.
"It's not that Wade can't defend, he's just isn't very good...."
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:57 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And we went a few games unbeaten recently so I think the back line is pretty good.

Pretty good but not good enough and a long way from the finished article. By comparison to the forwards progress we've a good way to go yet.

Now FB is obviously a point of issue that if we were able to resolve could have have real positives for the team as a whole, but specifically for the wings - if they're able to play the required game.

In the end we always have to compare ourselves to the best and by so doing any honest judgement would see us currently in deficit. The Naholo's of this world will strip us bare if we do not move our game beyond its current defensive rushing limitations.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:59 pm

Scottrf wrote:Solomona came on into a high tempo match vs a flair team from the bench. It's not his career over.

Indeed it is not, the NFL pays well Run


But seriously, of course it's not. The question is if he can learn to defend adequately to genuinely own the shirt?And to that the jury is very much out.

Also will Jones be prepared to hang his reputation on such a selection in a 'propa' international?


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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:00 pm

I agree we're not at our peak. This set of players will get better. There's great youngsters coming through all over the place. Going to be a fun few years.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:02 pm

Wade's footwork and gas helps him score tries from nothing at times at club level. Last season against Leinster he made international backs look silly at times. My one worry is that against the very best international sides with well marshaled defences, does he have enough in attack. I guess we will never know as he is unlikely to be given a chance.

On a separate note I was interested to see our team for T1 on the 2013 tour:

15 FB Mike Brown
14 W Christian Wade
13 C Jonathan Joseph
12 C Billy Twelvetrees
11 W David Strettle
10 FH Freddie Burns
9 SH Lee Dickson
1 P Joe Marler
2 H Rob Webber
3 P David Wilson
4 L Joe Launchbury
5 L Dave Attwood
6 F Tom Wood (c)
7 F Matt Kvesic
8 N8 Ben Morgan

Replacements
16 H David Paice
17 P Paul Doran Jones
18 P Henry Thomas
19 L Courtney Lawes
20 N8 Billy Vunipola
21 SH Richard Wigglesworth
22 C Kyle Eastmond
23 FB Ben Foden

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by beshocked on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:06 pm

no 7 & 1/2 I guess so. Launchbury hasn't taken responsibility with Lawes,Itoje and Kruis missing so yes.

Launchbury is picked for his workrate, generally he's been leaving the lineout responsibilities to others.

Clearly the lineout has suffered in the absence of the 3 locks and Borthwick.

It's a bit unfair for more inexperienced players to shoulder the burden of running the lineout but that's what players have to do with Launchbury not doing it.

Obviously Hartley's lineout stats have suffered as a result too.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by BamBam on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:08 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Wade's footwork and gas helps him score tries from nothing at times at club level. Last season against Leinster he made international backs look silly at times. My one worry is that against the very best international sides with well marshaled defences,  does he have enough in attack. I guess we will never know as he is unlikely to be given a chance.

On a separate note I was interested to see our team for T1 on the 2013 tour:

15 FB Mike Brown
14 W Christian Wade
13 C Jonathan Joseph
12 C Billy Twelvetrees
11 W David Strettle
10 FH Freddie Burns
9 SH Lee Dickson
1 P Joe Marler
2 H Rob Webber
3 P David Wilson
4 L Joe Launchbury
5 L Dave Attwood
6 F Tom Wood (c)
7 F Matt Kvesic
8 N8 Ben Morgan

Replacements
16 H David Paice
17 P Paul Doran Jones
18 P Henry Thomas
19 L Courtney Lawes
20 N8 Billy Vunipola
21 SH Richard Wigglesworth
22 C Kyle Eastmond
23 FB Ben Foden

Rob Webber must have been great in training, can't believe Jamie George wasn't given a shot.

Its just another example of Mike Brown being undroppable steam

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:09 pm

So in this instance Ewell who has run the bath lineout when he's played is surely the experienced caller?

So you've just confirmed that isiekwe has been given lineout responsibility by Jones. Good for him continuing to back his young players.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:14 pm

On a serious note the lineout was also missing Robshaw Haskell and all the normal lifters. Will be good to see if it improves this weekend.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:15 pm

I imagine Wade is massively pi55ed off by his non selection to Argentina.

Like everyone he was looking knackered towards the end of the year, but I reckon it got to him,especially after such a decent season.

I hope he has a really good break from rugby and sticks it to them all come September.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:18 pm

Without solomona arriving he probably would have made the tour too. He's going to be one of the players always overlooked.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Without solomona arriving he probably would have made the tour too. He's going to be one of the players always overlooked.

I like a bridge as much as the next man, but there's no need to live under one is there.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:35 pm

There's no trolling there. A new debutant shines and catches the eye almost immediately. Wade now appears to be one I'd the guys in between the set of established guys like Nowell mat Watson Daly and that next slightly younger bunch solomona earle and even younger guy cokanasiga. It's not wumming to suggest it looks like it'll take a pretty long list of injuries suspensions for wade to be given a chance now

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Barney McGrew did it on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:42 pm

Not sure how Wade can be written off for his iffy defense (despite his excellent try tally), and DS drooled over for his excellent try tally (but his iffy defense accepted). Early days but I'd say they are currently about as useful to England as each other.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's no trolling there.  A new debutant shines and catches the eye almost immediately. Wade now appears to be one I'd the guys in between the set of established guys like Nowell mat Watson Daly and that next slightly younger bunch solomona earle and even younger guy cokanasiga. It's not wumming to suggest it looks like it'll take a pretty long list of injuries suspensions for wade to be given a chance now

You are wum. You can't help but try and stir up some sort of argument, well quite frankly jog on.


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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:52 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Not sure how Wade can be written off for his iffy defense (despite his excellent try tally), and DS drooled over for his excellent try tally (but his iffy defense accepted). Early days but I'd say they are currently about as useful to England as each other.

To be fair to DS he's only been in Union for 1 season and he's not looked that weak in the AP. Wade has been playing in the AP for 5/6 years and hasn't really improved in this time.

Jones has seen something in him, something he hasn't seen in Wade.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:56 pm

There's nothing there that's a wum king. Wade hadn't forced himself into jones plans and there now seems to be a long list being considered and drafted in.early.

And it was you who seemed to have something against solomona when you've called for every other winger to be involved tbf.


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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:57 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Not sure how Wade can be written off for his iffy defense (despite his excellent try tally), and DS drooled over for his excellent try tally (but his iffy defense accepted). Early days but I'd say they are currently about as useful to England as each other.

I am not writing Wade off as such, just feel that he is so low down on EJ's radar that it is very unlikely he will be given a chance.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:58 pm

My point entirely LT.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by beshocked on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:59 pm

kingelderfield whilst Wade did have a good season don't think he played well in the AP final. A performance there might have sent out a message.

Though saying that it's also been made clear, club form doesn't seem to matter to Jones.

no 7 & 1/2 why can't Launchbury learn to run the lineout?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:02 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Without solomona arriving he probably would have made the tour too.
That's not necessarily how Jones is thinking.

Goode, Wade, Cipriani, Rokudoguni, Simpson, Robson etc are all players Jones thinks he knows. In extremis, he might call on them, as he did with Tom Wood when wanted some experience over a new face. In Argentina, he's chosen players he isn't so sure about.

In short, if Solomona hadn't made the tour, I don't think there was an obvious next choice.


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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:12 pm

beshocked wrote:kingelderfield whilst Wade did have a good season don't think he played well in the AP final. A performance there might have sent out a message.

Though saying that it's also been made clear, club form doesn't seem to matter to Jones.

I think that's fair. There's no doubt Wade's form dipped towards the end of the season.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:18 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:My point entirely LT.

Really, because what you actually said was 'He's going to be one of the players always overlooked'.

So you say that's not writing somebody off?

Your a wum chap so you'll get the respect you deserve.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:22 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
beshocked wrote:kingelderfield whilst Wade did have a good season don't think he played well in the AP final. A performance there might have sent out a message.

Though saying that it's also been made clear, club form doesn't seem to matter to Jones.

I think that's fair. There's no doubt Wade's form dipped towards the end of the season.

Eddie Jones has very frank discussions with players and what they need to do in order to earn selection. Wade obviously hasn't met the criteria that Jones is demanding. I've seen Jones come out and say that Solomona will improve, he's not pulling his punches there so I guess they'll be criteria Denny will need to reach in order to continue getting selected.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:27 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:...Eddie Jones has very frank discussions with players and what they need to do in order to earn selection...
Jones has a long reputation for saying things he subsequently doesn't mean. We shouldn't get lulled into the idea he has fixed plans for what players need to do. He can change his mind on a sixpence, and has done so in the past.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Scottrf on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:28 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:My point entirely LT.

Really, because what you actually said was 'He's going to be one of the players always overlooked'.

So you say that's not writing somebody off?

Your a wum chap so you'll get the respect you deserve.

You seem to be getting very angry over very little. Go get some fresh air.
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:38 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:
beshocked wrote:kingelderfield whilst Wade did have a good season don't think he played well in the AP final. A performance there might have sent out a message.

Though saying that it's also been made clear, club form doesn't seem to matter to Jones.

I think that's fair. There's no doubt Wade's form dipped towards the end of the season.

Eddie Jones has very frank discussions with players and what they need to do in order to earn selection. Wade obviously hasn't met the criteria that Jones is demanding. I've seen Jones come out and say that Solomona will improve, he's not pulling his punches there so I guess they'll be criteria Denny will need to reach in order to continue getting selected.

Yer I buy that. The greater point however is that our back line, back 3 specifically have to deliver more to the side and for that to happen our selections need to have the x factor. Now unless you actually select these people you will never genuinely know how they will perform at this level. As I have said to continue with our limited forward orientated game plan will take us so far, probably to a WC semi, but it won't get us over the line.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:43 pm

I'd hardly say we are playing with "a limited forward orientated game plan", did you not watch the game at the weekend?

Now unless you actually select these people you will never genuinely know how they will perform at this level.

I love it when this comment gets rolled out. Some posters on here would select a different XV for every game as end of the day, you don't know how these guys will perform......so how do long do you give them? 1 game....5 games.....10 games?

Wade isn't been selected as his defence isn't up to standard, I think that's pretty much how it is. If he's a weakness in the AP and Europe, he's not going to improve at Int level.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by beshocked on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:52 pm

Sgt Pooly asking for 1 or 2 players to be played isn't saying we want a different XV every game.

Our views differ sure but the team I generally want to see is not that different from most England fans.

Wade is unfortunate sure but because Jones doesn't seem to acknowledge club form, Wade misses out as a result.

Solomona's defence clearly isn't international standard either at the moment but hopefully should improve with experience and more familiarity.

Solomona did show some X factor against Argentina though of course he made defensive errors too.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:55 pm

He will be overlooked. Read my history I like wade a lot but that's different to saying that he's way down he pecking order and being ignored by Jones.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:56 pm

It's generally not 1 or 2 players though BS. You may call for 1 or 2, then others want a few more etc etc....If one guy has a bad game or two, the suddenly people are calling for somebody else.

There's only 23 spots available and the squad needs to build together, not chopping and changing every game.

Solomona made mistakes, but this is his debut and it was a hell of game to walk into. He's looked solid in the AP and the physical attributes to be able to improve, he's still very very green to union.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by beshocked on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 5:05 pm

Sgt Pooly I am all for giving Solomona another go.

Some continuity is important but you can stick with too many players who shouldn't be there and hold back too many players.

It's about getting the right balance.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 5:09 pm

Continuity is hugely important in my humble opinion.

Solomona should be given at least 10 caps to see if he's up to the job. He certainly has the attacking talent to make a hit at this stage.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by beshocked on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 5:18 pm

Continuity is fine to a point but need to keep striving to improve, if there is potential for a more limited player to be replaced by a superior one, it should happen, not be put off..... Whistle

Not let's just wait a couple of years because of continuity.....

It's fair to say you don't need to replace a player if a) there is no one potentially better b) the player themselves are consistently playing well.

I think there are opportunities to improve and pick players with more potential. I am not suggesting throwing continuity out of the window but England must aspire to improve.

If England had world class starters at hooker and full back, I could understand calls for some continuity but England don't. Both have dipped in form, especially Brown whose best season of 2014 seems to be a distant memory.

I should add there is also a time and a place for development -sometimes it's not straightforward to get that balance.

It's quite common to see defensive and positional errors from players in their first few caps.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Scottrf on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 5:25 pm

So who would you have instead of Hartley beshocked?
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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 6:09 pm

I don't know who you mean when you say "a limited player being replaced by a superior one". I can't think of any position where this is blatantly the case.

If you're suggesting George over Hartley, you're wide of the mark, as shown when the two came head to head a few months back.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by englandglory4ever on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 6:12 pm

Solomona gets serious support despite an indifferent game aside from the spectacular try. I wonder how Sam Burgess is feeling? He never once looked so out of his depth as Solomona did for a while. Strange how the media take to one and not the other. However, I would hope EJ gives Denny a few more runs he could be devastating.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by lostinwales on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 6:28 pm

I sit and skim through this thread (no point in actually reading the same stuff for the 15th time), and one thought sticks in my mind. What on earth would it have looked like on here had we lost?

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 7:01 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:Solomona gets serious support despite an indifferent game aside from the spectacular try. I wonder how Sam Burgess is feeling? He never once looked so out of his depth as Solomona did for a while. Strange how the media take to one and not the other.  However, I would hope EJ gives Denny a few more runs he could be devastating.

Burgess never did anything particularly impressive to warrant inclusion though. Solomona produced a world class finish after being on the pitch 15mins.

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Re: Argentina vs England, 1st Test

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