England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

However I do think Itoje and Kruis played well together...they understand each others games well.

On a separate note, which England players have enhanced their reputation on the Lions tour?

For me (and with two matches to go these coudl change):

Enhanced
Sinckler
Lawes
Te'o
Daly
Watson

Remained Steady
Mako
George
Itoje
Nowell


Diminished
Marler
Cole
Kruis
Haskell
Farrell
Joseph

BamBam wrote:All Itoje can do is win his own battles - knock them back in the tackle, carry well, win turnovers etc

As a pair, there's no chance they'll get on top of the NZ pair given the "quality" of his partner, but Itoje can leave his own marker - if he's at that level then he will, which would be no surprise to me

Team mates feed off each other. Itoje will be hampered partnering with AWJ. It could well affect his own game and he won't have much help at all at lineout time (not from AWJ anyway).

Performances can be better or worse based on the team as a whole obviously.


Londontiger probably fair but I'd also put Itoje so far into the enhanced territory.

I think that's a fair call LT - from what ive heard and read....I haven't watched any games ...

I don't think its a coincidence that the players you list as enhancing their reputations play in positions/have skills where individual quality can easily come to the fore

Ie Teo's line breaking, Watson/Daly quick feet, Sinckler carrying, Lawes tackling

The players who excel in a system all appear to have been diminished, as the "gameplan" looks so utterly awful

LondonTiger wrote:On a separate note, which England players have enhanced their reputation on the Lions tour?

For me (and with two matches to go these coudl change):

Enhanced
Sinckler
Lawes
Te'o
Daly
Watson

Remained Steady
Mako
George
Itoje
Nowell


Diminished
Marler
Cole
Kruis
Haskell
Farrell
Joseph

Intetesting debate LT.

Enhanced: Sinckler, Te'o, Watson

I think the rest have been either steady or havent delivered when given the chance, little in it. No player has really shone from any nation which is a real shame so far, it's been a poor tour, a real contrast to SA 2009 which was awsome.

I think another problem is that Gatland hasn't really integrated the players properly.

The geography 6 situation and flogging of supposedly 2nd string Lions hasn't helped either.

To build a strong squad you need a feeling that everyone is valuable, not just the 1st team. Also a belief that there is a fair opportunity to get into the 1st team.

I feel that Gatland won't change certain players even if it hurts the team.

Also there must be the belief that the squad and team is picked on merit.

LondonTiger wrote:On a separate note, which England players have enhanced their reputation on the Lions tour?

For me (and with two matches to go these coudl change):

Enhanced
Sinckler
Lawes
Te'o
Daly
Watson

Remained Steady
Mako
George
Itoje
Nowell


Diminished
Marler
Cole
Kruis
Haskell
Farrell
Joseph

I don't think anyones reputation has been diminished really; they've been poorly utilised more than anything and I'd expect most of them to return to form for England.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:On a separate note, which England players have enhanced their reputation on the Lions tour?

For me (and with two matches to go these coudl change):

Enhanced
Sinckler
Lawes
Te'o
Daly
Watson

Remained Steady
Mako
George
Itoje
Nowell


Diminished
Marler
Cole
Kruis
Haskell
Farrell
Joseph

I don't think anyones reputation has been diminished really; they've been poorly utilised more than anything and I'd expect most of them to return to form for England.

Yeah its all nuance. Haskell has to come down because his reputation was so high after last year's summer tour when he was playing in a very particular way in a very particular system. Then he got the injury. The others are all a bit so so. Joseph is a frustrating case both because of the way it feels he was always going to be 2nd choice to JD2 on tour and the way he hasn't shown his best form when he has had chances (other than the try).

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:On a separate note, which England players have enhanced their reputation on the Lions tour?

For me (and with two matches to go these coudl change):

Enhanced
Sinckler
Lawes
Te'o
Daly
Watson

Remained Steady
Mako
George
Itoje
Nowell


Diminished
Marler
Cole
Kruis
Haskell
Farrell
Joseph

I don't think anyones reputation has been diminished really; they've been poorly utilised more than anything and I'd expect most of them to return to form for England.

I think that's a critical point. Somehow since Eddie has been in charge, when the players join the England squad (even if bang out of form) they seem to get them into top form...or at least very good form quite quickly. Unless they are genuinely carrying injuries etc.

For me George has been a big disappointment. Cant see why he is being picked.

Strong set piece. Strong in the loose wider.out with good hands for a big fella. Also very good defensively.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:For me George has been a big disappointment. Cant see why he is being picked.

I agree he's been underwhelming. He's having little impact on games, certainly nowhere near what he does from the bench. The redeeming feature is his darts have been bang on, something the other 2 struggle with.

It does reinforce the thought that his carrying and offensive work is more suited to tiring defences pooly. If LCD gets going as he did in the latter part of the season we could see a combo who could both be a good strong starter with ball skills but also have that impact.

LCD made Rory Best look like Phil Taylor when he got the chance though.

Yes. It should be held against him forever now.

Scottrf wrote:LCD made Rory Best look like Phil Taylor when he got the chance though.

What is it with English hookers being developed and their wonky throwing. Admittedly Jack Walker missed last years JWC with injury, but the young lads for the last couple of years have been shocking at this aspect of the game.

Scottrf wrote:LCD made Rory Best look like Phil Taylor when he got the chance though.

Jamie George looks like he has the same conditioning coach as Phil Taylor. Maybe Im being harsh, I do think he is too green for these tests though. Best or Owens for me.

I reckon Gatland just doesnt rate Best given that he picked Tom Youngs and now George ahead of him over two tours.

LondonTiger wrote:

Scottrf wrote:LCD made Rory Best look like Phil Taylor when he got the chance though.

What is it with English hookers being developed and their wonky throwing. Admittedly Jack Walker missed last years JWC with injury, but the young lads for the last couple of years have been shocking at this aspect of the game.

Converted fat flankers

BamBam wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Scottrf wrote:LCD made Rory Best look like Phil Taylor when he got the chance though.

What is it with English hookers being developed and their wonky throwing. Admittedly Jack Walker missed last years JWC with injury, but the young lads for the last couple of years have been shocking at this aspect of the game.

Converted fat flankers

Too often that is the case yes. Throwing is pretty easy in practice when you are not arriving to the lineout after 20 or so phases of play. Different matter when you have had to scrummage, tackle, ruck and maul first. (Or actually sat on the bench and risked being seized up)

They do all seem to be converted from other positions. LCD was a LH who only converted after the U20 WC if I remember correctly.....it shows.

So with the Lions tour over...and the good performance in Argentina...has Eddie got a few difficult decisions?

Ie
Sinkler over Cole?
Locks
Daly, Watson v Brown at FB?
Jamie George over Hartley?

Geordiefalcon

I don't think Jones will see it as difficult. I think his mind is made up already.

I think Jones will keep Sinckler and George as impact.

Locks - hard to say. Launchbury should be the freshest going into the AIs so ironically is in the driving seat.

Think Jones will pick all 3 back three for now.

Will probably need an emerging player to shake things up.

Do we need a better thrower than George moving forward? 2 not straight throws in one game, Best would have been crucified.

Obviously lots will depend on their firm early in the season as well, but I think a few positions will be up for grabs...including senior players positions.

All across the front 3 you'd expect there could be an opening, though genge looks to be half a season off at the mo. There's 4 set locks personally I'd start our best 2 which is.Launchbury and Itoje now. Underhill to put pressure on haskell. 8 is Vunipola unless injured which then opens it up slightly for Clifford. 10 12 will.remain the same. Solomona at 14 and drop Watson to full back and Daly.

Can’t see the Lions performances having much bearing on the England side tbh. And anyhoo what we’ve seen just confirms what we know... Cole blows hot & cold and may struggle to maintain his position, Lawes is resurgent, George is a currently a finisher rather than an 80 minute man, OF still isn’t sure if he’s a 10 or a 12, we have some future options at FB. So OS, IC and FB still need some planning for the future – no real surprises there.

Clifford will be an interesting one. Will his decision to have his shoulder operation pay off. He needs a huge season I think.

Big call dropping Nowell aswell there 7.5

Solomona starts as he left off I can't see anything other than him taking a spot. Daly I'd a firm favourite of Jones and while Watson is on his way to actually becoming world class (top 3 in world in their position) I just think he looks class at fb whenever I see him there. Not sure if Nowell or may is currently in favour by Jones anyway.

I'm really not a fan of Daly on the wing, he's becoming our version of Halfpenny and just having kicking.

I'd be happy with Daly fighting it out with Watson for FB and then Solomona, May, Yarde, Earle & Nowell going for the wing spots.

I'd like to see Te'o at 12 with JJ or if he ever comes through.....Manu???

I think we've got a little bit more depth than we did this time last year so I guess the summer tour was a success in that regards.

Scottrf wrote:Do we need a better thrower than George moving forward? 2 not straight throws in one game, Best would have been crucified.

Should rule out Hartley too then after Argentina.... going by that logic.

I think Throwing is a dying skill within the Hooker crowd!

39/42 - 92% lineout success by George = rubbish.....

Playing arguably the best 2nd row in the world, oh and two of his lost lineout throws were trying to go to the back.

Easier to hit your jumpers if you go for the safe option at the front.

What was the main benefit in going with the hooker as lineout thrower? I guess it's easy for them to quickly add their weight to a maul and leaves all your backs out in space but balanced by a few hookers complaining that throwing becomes difficult after a host of scrums etc.

Is there any team who don't use their hooker? Now going to check they haven't changed the rules to say it has to be!

Anyone can throw 71/2.

I thought George threw well given the limited number of options we had. He failed to make much of an impact around the park though.

Whats peoples thoughts on LCD's challenge this season coming. Can he put his name down for starting / bench.

I would assume it would be the following if Hartley is dropped (BIG IF of course) .

2 George
17 LCD

Was JJ injured on the Lions tour? I genuinely don't remember him! Lawes was the best performer of all our locks and could start alongside Launchbury, Itoje makes goodbyes bench cover.

Te'o for me still needs to work on his hands, like Burrell teams will analyse him more now and he'll be shut down.

Marchant should be considered for 13 too if Te'o does play 13, they'd make a good combo.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I thought George threw well given the limited number of options we had. He failed to make much of an impact around the park though.

I agree. Those two crooked throws look really bad, especially as there was no real mitigating factor - being crooked is down to him and no-one else. Sure they were to the back - but still within 15m.

My real concern is that for Sarries post 6Ns he looked a bit lethargic, and that carried into the tour where he did not have the impact you would see from him when coming off the bench for England. Mind you, I feel the same could be said of Mako (and way back when he first got into the team Marler was an all running, handling prop). I guess the efforts needed in the set-piece and breakdowns for front rowers in the international game are such that the add-ons are harder to deliver. It does mean that I feel you should start with the best technicians, and bring the players who can exploit broken play on from the bench.

There are interesting decisions for Jones and his staff to make, especially with the Lions players now going on a 6 week break and only appearing back at their clubs right at the end of August.

Will be very interesting to see what impact the Lions has in terms of fitness and injuries.

Must have taken a lot out of the players.

Opportunities could well crop up.

To be fair to George it was his line-break (off an excellent line) that led to the Lions' second try in Test 2. Pretty important contribution. Though I agree he's looked a little jaded towards the back-end of the season.

The amount of big games, George and the key Saracens guys have played in the last couple of years must be draining.

Sometimes an injury layoff can help recharge the batteries. I know that happened to Owen Farrell. Hopefully Billy will come back from his injury layoff refreshed.

From an England perspective I am glad he didn't go on the Lions tour with his niggle.

I'd like to see more rotation this season.

Even if you don't start a game you still need to train and be prepared/match fit.

A monstrous ERCC pool doesn't help either.

The bottom line....we have options all over the park now. And good options aswell!

I guess how they playing in the season will decided who gets the starting spots. Which means Mr Consistently excellent Robshaw and Mark Wilson will start at 6 & 7

beshocked wrote:The amount of big games, George and the key Saracens guys have played in the last couple of years must be draining.

Sometimes an injury layoff can help recharge the batteries. I know that happened to Owen Farrell. Hopefully Billy will come back from his injury layoff refreshed.

From an England perspective I am glad he didn't go on the Lions tour with his niggle.

I'd like to see more rotation this season.

Even if you don't start a game you still need to train and be prepared/match fit.

A monstrous ERCC pool doesn't help either.

I think that's a valid point. Plus they're all action style players...and big heavy guys. It must have an effect.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:The amount of big games, George and the key Saracens guys have played in the last couple of years must be draining.

Sometimes an injury layoff can help recharge the batteries. I know that happened to Owen Farrell. Hopefully Billy will come back from his injury layoff refreshed.

From an England perspective I am glad he didn't go on the Lions tour with his niggle.

I'd like to see more rotation this season.

Even if you don't start a game you still need to train and be prepared/match fit.

A monstrous ERCC pool doesn't help either.

I think that's a valid point. Plus they're all action style players...and big heavy guys. It must have an effect.

I think they were already tired after the final vs Clermont.

To be honest I think they did remarkably well during the Lions tour to stay fit.

Launchbury might not being one of the geography 6 should mean he'll go into the new season fresher than his rival 2nd rowers.

Same with other players that missed out.

Wilson was obviously a beneficary of injuries and if Newcastle make a good start... who knows?


Lots of players to look out for like Underhill,Ewels,the Curry bros.

I am obviously interested to see if any Saracens academy players will have a breakthrough season.

I do list Mark with a bit of tongue in cheek. He's a hugely consistent guy very much in the Robshaw setting. He is a guy that Jones now knows is a very solid reliable back up in injury time (who can cover the back 5!) So he could very well be a regular squad member now, But in reality probably no more than that...as I think Curry, Underhill etc will move ahead. Plus we need to see how Clifford etc go this season.

If Newcastle make a move up the table with Wilson being a key part, he could well feature.

I still think at least one flanker is up for grabs with Haskell dipping in form.

Itoje at 6 is not something I think will be repeated.

I agree...keep Itoje at lock.

Haskells form in the prem will be very interesting indeed.

I'd add in there James Chisholm at Quins, he's one of our best youngsters at the club and Guy Mercer at Bath. Two great prospects that must be on Jone's radar.

Another that might also be worth an eye on is Brendon O'Connor at Tigers with their new manager, he topped a lot of stats around turnovers in the AP last season and am sure his parents are English.

Suddenly getting some depth in the back row.

SamTheQuin wrote:I'd add in there James Chisholm at Quins, he's one of our best youngsters at the club and Guy Mercer at Bath. Two great prospects that must be on Jone's radar.

Another that might also be worth an eye on is Brendon O'Connor at Tigers with their new manager, he topped a lot of stats around turnovers in the AP last season and am sure his parents are English.

Suddenly getting some depth in the back row.

Saw baby Chis at the pre-season dinner - looking fit and well-rested from the summer break. There aren't many rugby players who make me feel small (I'm pretty tall, and when I met Martin Johnson he struck me as kinda normal sized), but there's something about the physicality of Chisholm that's quite scary. He's a similar broad build to, say, Neil Back, but where Back was 5'11", Chis is 6'3" with the same proportions ... which means he's much broader than the average human being or even the average rugby player.

There's a long queue of English players ahead of him (two of them at his own club), but it says a lot that we have such potential depth.

He does look like he's got something special about him, we've got some good quality backrowers at the club, Robshaw, Wallace, Chisholm and Clifford. The one guy I am really looking forward to seeing come through is Archie White - not a bad production line we have there.