England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Page 6 of 20 Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 13 ... 20  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 11:49 am

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)

Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

LondonTiger

Posts : 16653
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down


Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 9:25 am

Not sure sale do have the same budget as some.of the bigger and more glamorous teams tbh. Think diamond would be a great fit for a team like Leicester though.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 13918
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 9:32 am

Diamond is a much better coach now than he was at 37 when Saracens sacked him. Saracens bumped him up to DoR far too early in his coaching career, then practically hamstrung him through selecting his coaching staff (including our friend Mike Ford) for him and interference from above and below in the structure.

He seems to be a hands on type of guy and as mentioned earlier his last move upstairs (and the appointment of Redpath) was not a success.

LondonTiger

Posts : 16653
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by BamBam on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 9:42 am

cascough wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Mercer looks very lightweight for senior international rugby (in my opinion) however a certain Mr Dallaglio wasn't exactly the monstrous powerhouse he became when he first played in the 7's for England etc. Hopefully he will bulk up appropriately.

I agree...ive always preferred the format of:
6 - Massive, hugely strong neaderthal thug
7 - fast, intelligent, back playing in the forwards who just loves to win the ball.
8 - Huge but athletic guy, just a great all round rugby player and major lineout option.

But we don't play with that format with Billy there at 8, and not many teams do really play with that format anymore.

Who was the last international back row to fit this mould do you reckon?

Kaino, McCaw, Read isn't far off I reckon

Obviously Kaino is more than a neanderthal thug, but he can definitely do that role

BamBam

Posts : 11708
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 28

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:06 am

beshocked wrote:Hill played primarily at 6 for England with Back at 7 and Dallaglio at 8.

My point is that the idea of the ideal backrow doesn't really work.

That's our best English backrow ever IMO and didn't have a thug at 6.

kingelderfield totally agree. I know some fans on here sing the praises of Diamond but I think he's a bit overrated.

Sometimes fans forget that coaches have to work on a lower budget because they struggle with a bigger one - basically they are mediocre.

Diamond is the Allardyce or Moyes of the Aviva Premiership IMO.

Apologies beshocked, I misread your post.

I subscribe to Geordiefalcons thinking in terms of the typical backrow, but I'm actually struggling to think of one that fits the mould.

cascough

Posts : 734
Join date : 2016-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by beshocked on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:07 am

Diamond isn't good enough to make the most of a big budget.

Moyes got a bigger budget and look how that turned out.... Whistle


I'd actually feel sorry for Tigers if they had Diamond in charge.


On the contrary I think sometimes you have some more abrasive players wearing the 7 shirt like Burger x 2, Haskell.

6 and 7 do seem to have been blurred quite a bit.

Serge Betsen was not a particularly big flanker yet very effective.

I do think there is still room for a smaller flanker if they are powerful enough or can do something a bit special.


Last edited by beshocked on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total

beshocked

Posts : 14550
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:08 am

BamBam wrote:
cascough wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Mercer looks very lightweight for senior international rugby (in my opinion) however a certain Mr Dallaglio wasn't exactly the monstrous powerhouse he became when he first played in the 7's for England etc. Hopefully he will bulk up appropriately.

I agree...ive always preferred the format of:
6 - Massive, hugely strong neaderthal thug
7 - fast, intelligent, back playing in the forwards who just loves to win the ball.
8 - Huge but athletic guy, just a great all round rugby player and major lineout option.

But we don't play with that format with Billy there at 8, and not many teams do really play with that format anymore.

Who was the last international back row to fit this mould do you reckon?

Kaino, McCaw, Read isn't far off I reckon

Obviously Kaino is more than a neanderthal thug, but he can definitely do that role

Decent shout.

cascough

Posts : 734
Join date : 2016-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:12 am

Wales have had this option at times.

Lydiate, Tipuric, Falateu.

Moriarity, Tipuric, Falateu is pretty similar.

cascough

Posts : 734
Join date : 2016-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:13 am

Moyes who outperformed morinho in a similar amount of games? I like diamond seems to add value to his players. It is different to managing a club who can splash the cash but I hope he.does get the chance to as I'd like as many options.for england for quality coaches as we have players.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 13918
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:14 am

They need a 6 who is a better carrier for wales. If moriarty can improve there it'll look a better balance but so far he's fallen well short in a wales shirt.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 13918
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by beshocked on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:26 am

no 7 & 1/2 you aren't going to seriously argue Moyes > Mourinho are you? Mourinho even won some silverware this year albeit a small trophy (means qualify for the Champions League at least).

Diamond seems to get extra credit for odd reason but he's not the only coach to add value to players but he's the one who gets highlighted the most.

Baxter has turned his club from a championship club into AP Champions - now that's impressive.




I always thought Lydiate was one dimensional and Moriarty doesn't impress me.

beshocked

Posts : 14550
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:34 am

Just looking at the performances and results beshocked. I'm. Not sure we can definitively say Moyes can't succeed at a club which spends money as he didn't get the chance really. The comparison to jose was to demonstrate even guys who pretty much everyone recognises as a top manager don't land running every time.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 13918
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by beshocked on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:59 am

Top managers don't always stay at the top of their game, similar to players.

Well technically Mourinho has a higher win % and has actually won silverware with United.

51 games is a fair go I'd say for Moyes.

Diamond is similar to Moyes, he hasn't achieved much but he gets plaudits nonetheless.

beshocked

Posts : 14550
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:03 am

The comparison from Moyes to mourinho is that after the same amount of games for man u Moyes had won a greater number of points. Hence your summary of him not being able to succeed at a big spending club may be a little premature as was his axing.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 13918
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by beshocked on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:08 am

We can only go on what happened. Moyes was axed. 51 games is a fair go.

Moye failed. On his one opportunity he wasn't good enough. You can argue he deserves another go - go ahead.

You can do similar with Diamond - campaign on his behalf to get the Leicester job.

I don't think Diamond at Leicester would be successful, especially as Leicester are the most likely to sack a coach not meeting their high standards but would be an interesting sub plot.

beshocked

Posts : 14550
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:12 am

On he points above the curry brothers and when do they get a chance. I'm really interested as to how jones does this, if he does in his tenure. I thought tom s debut and performance in the non capped game were class. One of the better debuts from a back row player I can remember. He's still very young and people have said his brother is slightly better. It's a major headache for Jones imo as these lads could be top top class but when does he play them. Do you throw one on the bench straight away but then underhill and Hughes need more exposure now. Tough call. Full circle it'll probably need them to develop quickly this year at sale to force their way I'm quickly. Exciting future though.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 13918
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:13 am

I'm moving on beshocked as you can't understand the point and it's been explained as well as I can.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 13918
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by BamBam on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:21 am

I think at this point we're better off working with what we have at back row

Robshaw, Haskell, Underhill, Billy and Hughes should be the core of the back row through the next season, assuming form and fitness

Haskell looks the most at threat from one of the Currys, but barring Itoje esque improvement this season I think its unlikely they'll be starters at the RWC

BamBam

Posts : 11708
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 28

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:24 am

I'd agree with that choice as the best now.but..... they could be world.class so still.want to see develolment.Itoje could also still cover at 6 for a game of 2 when required. I just want to see one or 2 games of the bench here and there. So much depends on their sale form. Could make it a hard decision for Jones.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 13918
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by BamBam on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:28 am

Are Sale in the RCC this season? Big performances against some of the top clubs could really make a difference in Jones' thinking I guess

Having a comparatively weaker set of AI fixtures could benefit them too

BamBam

Posts : 11708
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 28

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 12:37 pm

Im pretty sure Currys performances will mean he is closely watched.

Lets be clear on recent form for England, he's probably been the best 7 out of Underhill, Haskell etc etc. That cant be ignored.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 18942
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Poorfour on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 12:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd agree with that choice as the best now.but..... they could be world.class so still.want to see develolment.Itoje could also still cover at 6 for a game of 2 when required. I just want to see one or 2 games of the bench here and there. So much depends on their sale form. Could make it a hard decision for Jones.

I don't think it's a hard decision at all. The Curry brothers are potentially top class players, but they are also still kids. Pushing them too far too early and you run the risk of breaking them permanently, especially in an attritional position like back row. Post 2019 they will still be under 23, which is the age at which most players break into international rugby.

They've had a run out, they will have their marching orders, now it's time to go back to their clubs and learn to adapt to adult rugby. We have already seen how deep the back row injury list can run, so they will get their chances in time. When it does, they will either make themselves hard to displace, or they won't. Itoje got his chance at lock and has been indispensible. He also got a chance at 6 and was considerably more ordinary; I hope we don't see him there again.

Poorfour

Posts : 3632
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Poorfour on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 12:46 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im pretty sure Currys performances will mean he is closely watched.

Lets be clear on recent form for England, he's probably been the best 7 out of Underhill, Haskell etc etc. That cant be ignored.

He played well in a couple of quite unusual games, as an unknown quantity whom the opposition won't have prepared much for. Translating that into consistent performance is another thing - especially for a very young player.

I am not trying to play the Currys down, but I am trying to play the hype down. They are good, they could be very good, but rushing them won't help anyone. Underhill was a touch overenthusiastic on his debut but also played well and has been consistently good at senior level during his sojourn in Wales. I really think the Currys need time to show they can play consistently at senior club level before they are given a run internationally.

Poorfour

Posts : 3632
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 12:47 pm

You do run that risk. After the debut by the younger brother though I'm. Not sure they will be sent away for long. I'm. Not suggesting that they're in the team form the upcoming ais but wondering how.much exposure jones gives them and when. You're probably spot on it'll be a few injuries at the same time which gives them their next look in.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 13918
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 12:49 pm

cascough wrote:
beshocked wrote:Hill played primarily at 6 for England with Back at 7 and Dallaglio at 8.

My point is that the idea of the ideal backrow doesn't really work.

That's our best English backrow ever IMO and didn't have a thug at 6.

kingelderfield totally agree. I know some fans on here sing the praises of Diamond but I think he's a bit overrated.

Sometimes fans forget that coaches have to work on a lower budget because they struggle with a bigger one - basically they are mediocre.

Diamond is the Allardyce or Moyes of the Aviva Premiership IMO.

Apologies beshocked, I misread your post.

I subscribe to Geordiefalcons thinking in terms of the typical backrow, but I'm actually struggling to think of one that fits the mould.

Yeah its probably quite an old fashioned "ideal" for a back row these days. I cant think of any that match it acutely. That AB one was close...and the odd Wales one.

But generally teams seem to be playing 6.5's on both flanks.

Maybe Neaderthal thug was a bit strong for the 6 spot...I meant a huge bruiser. But you knew what I meant.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 18942
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 12:54 pm

Poorfour wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Im pretty sure Currys performances will mean he is closely watched.

Lets be clear on recent form for England, he's probably been the best 7 out of Underhill, Haskell etc etc. That cant be ignored.

He played well in a couple of quite unusual games, as an unknown quantity whom the opposition won't have prepared much for. Translating that into consistent performance is another thing - especially for a very young player.

I am not trying to play the Currys down, but I am trying to play the hype down. They are good, they could be very good, but rushing them won't help anyone. Underhill was a touch overenthusiastic on his debut but also played well and has been consistently good at senior level during his sojourn in Wales. I really think the Currys need time to show they can play consistently at senior club level before they are given a run internationally.

Oh that's very true...however Underhill didn't really shine in these games and he was the hyped Opsreys star who is supposedly a shoe in for the AI's.

I fully expect Haskell to be starting at 7 in the AI's as long as he is fit and performing for Wasps. But purely on recent games, Curry is surely ahead of Underhill.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 18942
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by beshocked on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 1:04 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
cascough wrote:
beshocked wrote:Hill played primarily at 6 for England with Back at 7 and Dallaglio at 8.

My point is that the idea of the ideal backrow doesn't really work.

That's our best English backrow ever IMO and didn't have a thug at 6.

kingelderfield totally agree. I know some fans on here sing the praises of Diamond but I think he's a bit overrated.

Sometimes fans forget that coaches have to work on a lower budget because they struggle with a bigger one - basically they are mediocre.

Diamond is the Allardyce or Moyes of the Aviva Premiership IMO.

Apologies beshocked, I misread your post.

I subscribe to Geordiefalcons thinking in terms of the typical backrow, but I'm actually struggling to think of one that fits the mould.

Yeah its probably quite an old fashioned "ideal" for a back row these days. I cant think of any that match it acutely. That AB one was close...and the odd Wales one.

But generally teams seem to be playing 6.5's on both flanks.

Maybe Neaderthal thug was a bit strong for the 6 spot...I meant a huge bruiser. But you knew what I meant.


If you play a huge bruiser at 8 like Billy, there's not really much room for another bruiser IMO.

I think the main roles of a backrow as an unit would be at least one strong ball carrier, ideally all three but most of the time that's not possible. At least one breakdown specialist, at least one link man between backs and forwards - if possible at least one extra jumper in the lineout.

Playing Billy at 8 means that 6 or 7 doesn't necessarily to be as proficient a ball carrier but they need to do things that Billy won't do.

A workhorse to compliment someone like Billy is clearly needed at 6/7. Obviously Robshaw generally fits that bill.


I think the biggest difficulty is who do you partner with Robshaw and Billy - I think that's where the fight for the spot is.

beshocked

Posts : 14550
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by lostinwales on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 1:23 pm

I actually agree with BS. Barring injury its Robshaw and Billy plus one.

I think Haskell is going to have to up his game back to Australian series levels to get back in as first choice. With a couple of seasons to go before 2019 its a good time to look for the next in line to get experience if we think he isn't going to make it. I don't think he will. I'd be pretty happy with him in the reliable experienced back up role though

As for Underhill the jury is still out but he looked a lot more like the real deal than Harrison did the year before. My main issue is that I don't think he has the stamina (or the nous - if its down to trying to hit too hard all the time) to last 80 minutes in an international just yet.

As an aside I do think one of the smart things about Robshaw is that he is a powerful guy but doesn't go for the biggest hits etc all the time. He works within himself and therefore manages to keep up his work rate through games and to reduce the number of injuries he gets. I think Underhill could learn a great deal from him.

lostinwales

Posts : 7061
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by BamBam on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 1:28 pm

The other thing that might sway thinking is the line out

Billy is obviously not an option, Robshaw can catch but I wouldn't say its a great strength of his. If any of the Currys/Underhill can show they can be an option even in the Tipuric mold (light enough just to launch 10 foot in the air) then they'll have an additional string to their bow

BamBam

Posts : 11708
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 28

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 2:29 pm

Unless he continues with the 3 lock option....with Itoje packing down at 4/5 but actually playing 6?

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 18942
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 3:53 pm

What's everyone's take on the Curry's?
They have had exposure - will Eddie leave them alone now for a season or so to increase experience? Do they need to bulk up?
Is there space for Clifford in the squad if he regains form? EJ saw him as a future no.8 but with Billy being awesome, and Hughs getting better for England with every game.....there are plenty of other youngsters nipping at the no.8 heels.

propdavid_london

Posts : 2824
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by yappysnap on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:20 pm

cascough wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Mercer looks very lightweight for senior international rugby (in my opinion) however a certain Mr Dallaglio wasn't exactly the monstrous powerhouse he became when he first played in the 7's for England etc. Hopefully he will bulk up appropriately.

I agree...ive always preferred the format of:
6 - Massive, hugely strong neaderthal thug
7 - fast, intelligent, back playing in the forwards who just loves to win the ball.
8 - Huge but athletic guy, just a great all round rugby player and major lineout option.

But we don't play with that format with Billy there at 8, and not many teams do really play with that format anymore.

Who was the last international back row to fit this mould do you reckon?

I guess maybe Wales if they've fielded Ludiate/Tipuric/Faletou, or else going further back Englands Worsley/Moody/Easter backrow, at the same time as that Oz had Elsom/Smith/TPN

yappysnap

Posts : 10761
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 29
Location : Guildford, Surrey

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by yappysnap on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:28 pm

BamBam wrote:I think at this point we're better off working with what we have at back row

Robshaw, Haskell, Underhill, Billy and Hughes should be the core of the back row through the next season, assuming form and fitness

Haskell looks the most at threat from one of the Currys, but barring Itoje esque improvement this season I think its unlikely they'll be starters at the RWC

Why Underhill? What sets him apart from the Currys, Clifford, Harrison or the guys at Leicester?

yappysnap

Posts : 10761
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 29
Location : Guildford, Surrey

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by yappysnap on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:33 pm

propdavid_london wrote:What's everyone's take on the Curry's?  
They have had exposure - will Eddie leave them alone now for a season or so to increase experience?  Do they need to bulk up?
Is there space for Clifford in the squad if he regains form?  EJ saw him as a future no.8 but with Billy being awesome, and Hughs getting better for England with every game.....there are plenty of other youngsters nipping at the no.8 heels.

Clifford to be honest needs to be amazing if he is going to get a shout at 8 for England, to me it's Billy then Hughes. If Clifford comes in then the backrow dynamic changes a lot, suddenly we're down a carrier and the pack is lighter, but we gain some speed and height in the lineout. If he came on with Lawes and Synkler it'd work. But otherwise we may struggle to get the go forward Billy or Hughes provide.

yappysnap

Posts : 10761
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 29
Location : Guildford, Surrey

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:40 pm

Clifford like Croft was for England...could be that luxury player that at times we just cant afford...

propdavid_london

Posts : 2824
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Poorfour on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 6:45 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Clifford like Croft was for England...could be that luxury player that at times we just cant afford...

Clifford was carrying a shoulder injury last season that he had an operation on over the summer. We'll see this season whether he can actually play at the level required; I go back to his first game against the Barbarians, which was exceptionally good (and his impact for Quins leading up to it). I think he is for the most part a bench option, though: his speed and versatility is enough to change a game, and at present Billy is the nailed on starter at 8. Clifford won't dent a line every time like Billy - but his acceleration and eye for a gap means for me he can be a useful alternative late in the game. If he is fully fit.

Underhill was singled out by Eddie as having the qualities that he wants in a 7. What I see in him is huge physicality but also a sense of how to hit the breakdown to maximum effect - you can see him adjust his bodyshape as he approaches in a way that very few players do.

As for the last cruncher/fetcher/carrier back English row, that would be Worsley, Moody and Easter. And I don't think any of us would want to go back to that. I don't subscribe to the meathead 6 idea at international level. If you think about the very best 6s, you come up with names like Hill, Collins, Jones, Warburton - all of them hard men and hard workers but also very good decision makers.

Poorfour

Posts : 3632
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by yappysnap on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 8:26 pm

Agree with all that.

I am incredibly biased but i'd still rate Robshaw as good a 6 as almost any of those others on that list PF. Certainly it's still his shirt to lose, just a case of finding the best 7 to play beside him.

yappysnap

Posts : 10761
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 29
Location : Guildford, Surrey

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Poorfour on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 8:44 pm

I think Robshaw's got to clock up a period of dominance that ideally ends in an RWC win to be on the same plane as Hill or Collins. But despite what Gatland thinks, I think he's as good as Warburton in the 6 shirt. Especially if you don't allow Warbs a test and a half runup to recover from being crocked again.

Poorfour

Posts : 3632
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:21 pm

Will Underhill be a guaranteed starter for Bath? He's got some competition down there! Or will there be rotation.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 18942
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:52 pm

Poorfour wrote:I think Robshaw's got to clock up a period of dominance that ideally ends in an RWC win to be on the same plane as Hill or Collins. But despite what Gatland thinks, I think he's as good as Warburton in the 6 shirt. Especially if you don't allow Warbs a test and a half runup to recover from being crocked again.

I think there's a decent chance this could happen. All the ingredients are there, especially the need to right the wrongs of 2015.

Just to be a sod......and I absolutely hope I'm bang on wrong, but regards the Curry boys, aren't we all getting a bit ahead of ourselves on the back of few games at the end of spring? Here's hoping they're brought throw successfully in good time.

And doesn't Underhill look like he's made of glass Run

kingelderfield

Posts : 1853
Join date : 2011-08-27

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Poorfour on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:03 pm

Underhill's certainly got a Welsh-style injury record in his short career. Hopefully being back in England will help him keep fit.

Hope you're right about England's (and Robshaw's) chances, though.

Poorfour

Posts : 3632
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by lostinwales on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 12:20 pm

Underhill's injury record. From what I have seen of him I think there is a bit of 'trying too hard' in there. He could be the real deal but has to get fitter and tougher if he wants to be the long term first choice.

I do think choice for the 7 shirt is wide open for the AI. It is not impossible that we will see Robshaw go to 7 and have another 6 though (Itoje if he's playing?)

lostinwales

Posts : 7061
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 1:42 pm

In all fairness despite what ive said above...its Haskells to lose on his performances for wasps I guess.

If he is refreshed (and more importantly) injury free and plays like his Aussie tour form...then no one will be taking that shirt from him!

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 18942
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 7:10 pm

I see Hartley has regained the captaincy at Saints. Will that have any baring on his England role?

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 18942
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by beshocked on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 9:40 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see Hartley has regained the captaincy at Saints.  Will that have any baring on his England role?

Don't see why it would.

Most important thing for Hartley is improving his form and at club level making sure he doesn't pick up any more bans.

Not that either will matter to Jones.

Biggest issue Saints still need to solve is of course the massive Picamoles shaped hole. Picking Hartley as captain won't fix that.

beshocked

Posts : 14550
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Cyril on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 9:49 am

beshocked wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I see Hartley has regained the captaincy at Saints.  Will that have any baring on his England role?

Don't see why it would.

Most important thing for Hartley is improving his form and at club level making sure he doesn't pick up any more bans.

Not that either will matter to Jones.

Biggest issue Saints still need to solve is of course the massive Picamoles shaped hole. Picking Hartley as captain won't fix that.
Isn't Manoa rumoured to be returning to Saints?

Cyril

Posts : 6089
Join date : 2012-11-16

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by beshocked on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 10:15 am

Cyril wrote:
beshocked wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I see Hartley has regained the captaincy at Saints.  Will that have any baring on his England role?

Don't see why it would.

Most important thing for Hartley is improving his form and at club level making sure he doesn't pick up any more bans.

Not that either will matter to Jones.

Biggest issue Saints still need to solve is of course the massive Picamoles shaped hole. Picking Hartley as captain won't fix that.
Isn't Manoa rumoured to be returning to Saints?

Maybe but doesn't mean Manoa is the same player he was. Plus you would want Manoa as well as, not as instead.

beshocked

Posts : 14550
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 1:49 pm

yappysnap wrote:Agree with all that.

I am incredibly biased but i'd still rate Robshaw as good a 6 as almost any of those others on that list PF. Certainly it's still his shirt to lose, just a case of finding the best 7 to play beside him.


For me Robshaws a limite dplayer but vital to the way Englands backs are at the moment. There was a lot of talk about this for the Lions to ... that theres a massive lump of wet lettuce in the midfield waiting to be ran through. The back row and Davies had to do a lot of dog work to cover for that.  Robshaw pretty much does it on his own for England, and very effectively through sheer work rate. Farrell still probably has to make more tackles than you'd ideally want him to (and generally makes a better fist of it than he did for the Lions), but they are able to hide Ford and Jospeh doesnt have to absorb too much. A lot of that is down to Robshaw getting his body in the way. I was never a massive fan of Worsely but there were a couple of tests he kept England in it simply by tackling everything in sight. Thinking back to Robshaw Haskell at their best you had a hell of a lot of this ...can the wonderkids deliver the same against proper competitive test sides? Do they have that energy, drive and game awareness to be in the line of fire?
Id always been Robshaw skeptic (partly a reaction to how offended people used to be when he wasnt picked) but Ive gradually been won over by his importance to England....especially if we continue with a flair midfield.

Gooseberry

Posts : 3094
Join date : 2015-02-11

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by lostinwales on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 2:58 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Agree with all that.

I am incredibly biased but i'd still rate Robshaw as good a 6 as almost any of those others on that list PF. Certainly it's still his shirt to lose, just a case of finding the best 7 to play beside him.


For me Robshaws a limite dplayer but vital to the way Englands backs are at the moment. There was a lot of talk about this for the Lions to ... that theres a massive lump of wet lettuce in the midfield waiting to be ran through. The back row and Davies had to do a lot of dog work to cover for that.  Robshaw pretty much does it on his own for England, and very effectively through sheer work rate. Farrell still probably has to make more tackles than you'd ideally want him to (and generally makes a better fist of it than he did for the Lions), but they are able to hide Ford and Jospeh doesnt have to absorb too much. A lot of that is down to Robshaw getting his body in the way. I was never a massive fan of Worsely but there were a couple of tests he kept England in it simply by tackling everything in sight. Thinking back to Robshaw Haskell at their best you had a hell of a lot of this ...can the wonderkids deliver the same against proper competitive test sides? Do they have that energy, drive and game awareness to be in the line of fire?
Id always been Robshaw skeptic (partly a reaction to how offended people used to be when he wasnt picked) but Ive gradually been won over by his importance to England....especially if we continue with a flair midfield.

Yep. Its easy to dismiss work rate for flash but Robshaw does more 'work' than any player in world rugby except for Pocock (who is away on his own in that regard). This gives more space to everyone else to do the flashy stuff.

lostinwales

Posts : 7061
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 3:30 pm

Haskell was absolutely immense in the Aussie tour in the same way, though more visible and destructive physically.

I genuinely hope we see that level again from him because that flank combo was seriously impressive!

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 18942
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 4:06 pm

I see a little interview with Brian O'Driscoll, (if he's being truthful)and he says the hardest player he has ever played with or against was ....Richard Hill. Interesting...amazing player yet not someone I viewed as a "traditional hard man". Brian says he was just a player that made teams tick and was a tough as old boots!

He also says the hardest tackle he ever had was from Johnny.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 18942
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 6 of 20 Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 13 ... 20  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum