England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 11:49 am

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)

Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 9:06 am

cascough wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Manu seems to be a bit of a trouble magnet where England are concerned.

Does he have these sorts of problems at Tigers, or is it just frustration at being out for so long?

I think some of this is a bit overblown.

The only notable Rugby he's missed through indiscipline is a prem final (when he lamped Ashton). You could argue the World Cup falls under that, but if I remember rightly Manu maintains his innocence and insists he was injured anyway, and so was advised to plead guilty for a swift and speedy resolution.

The other incidents being the ferry jump (daft, but he was just a pup in his first season for Eng) and the Cameron bunny ears thing (which is ridiculously overblown in my eyes) might be a bit of undesirable press, but a bit of a stretch to call them trouble IMO.

Perhaps the reason these things are so prominent are because he's spent so much time injured, that he is inevitably in the spotlight when he is fit to play.

Given he hasn't actually missed much Rugby through indiscipline, and this is his first misdemeanor under Jones I'm fully expecting Jones to give him another chance.

You included him doing bunny ears over Cameron but not assaulting a female police officer?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 9:14 am

Sorry but im afraid id be tempted to come down very hard on Solomana and Manu....for the sheer fact it was unprofessional and absolutely stupid! Theres plenty of times to go for a drink, but when your down on a 3 day training session with the England team that's not one of them!

Especially with Solomana just making the squad and Manu out for so long....

Im not a sour face...everyone likes a drink, and im actually glad Eddie is happy for the guys to do that sometimes when they're together...but in this case I just think it was an act of stupidity by the two lads.

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Post by munkian on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 9:48 am

Scottrf wrote:
cascough wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Manu seems to be a bit of a trouble magnet where England are concerned.

Does he have these sorts of problems at Tigers, or is it just frustration at being out for so long?

I think some of this is a bit overblown.

The only notable Rugby he's missed through indiscipline is a prem final (when he lamped Ashton). You could argue the World Cup falls under that, but if I remember rightly Manu maintains his innocence and insists he was injured anyway, and so was advised to plead guilty for a swift and speedy resolution.

The other incidents being the ferry jump (daft, but he was just a pup in his first season for Eng) and the Cameron bunny ears thing (which is ridiculously overblown in my eyes) might be a bit of undesirable press, but a bit of a stretch to call them trouble IMO.

Perhaps the reason these things are so prominent are because he's spent so much time injured, that he is inevitably in the spotlight when he is fit to play.

Given he hasn't actually missed much Rugby through indiscipline, and this is his first misdemeanor under Jones I'm fully expecting Jones to give him another chance.

You included him doing bunny ears over Cameron but not assaulting a female police officer?

Two police officers and a taxi driver.
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Post by cascough on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 9:50 am

Scottrf wrote:
cascough wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Manu seems to be a bit of a trouble magnet where England are concerned.

Does he have these sorts of problems at Tigers, or is it just frustration at being out for so long?

I think some of this is a bit overblown.

The only notable Rugby he's missed through indiscipline is a prem final (when he lamped Ashton). You could argue the World Cup - THIS IS THE POLICE OFFICER BIT falls under that THAT BEING CAUSING TROUBLE, but if I remember rightly Manu maintains his innocence and insists he was injured anyway, and so was advised to plead guilty for a swift and speedy resolution.

The other incidents being the ferry jump (daft, but he was just a pup in his first season for Eng) and the Cameron bunny ears thing (which is ridiculously overblown in my eyes) might be a bit of undesirable press, but a bit of a stretch to call them trouble IMO.

Perhaps the reason these things are so prominent are because he's spent so much time injured, that he is inevitably in the spotlight when he is fit to play.

Given he hasn't actually missed much Rugby through indiscipline, and this is his first misdemeanor under Jones I'm fully expecting Jones to give him another chance.

You included him doing bunny ears over Cameron but not assaulting a female police officer?

I have included that. I've explained it badly, clearly.

He lamped Ashton, missed some rugby.

I meant you could argue that he also missed rugby (the WC) and include under the banner of "trouble". But I was just pointing out that it's not as black and white as that as he said afterwards he was injured anyway and was always going to miss the world cup, and that he plead guilty under bad advice.

My overall point being, a few people have said he attracts/causes trouble, but that despite this reputation, he hasn't actually missed a lot of Rugby because of it. His time away from the game for injury is accentuating this reputation. IMO.


Last edited by cascough on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 9:50 am

For gawds sake, Manu is currently very much yesterday’s man (both in body and mind it would seem). Leave the poor old sod to play some club rugby and find a way to prolong his club career. England have moved on and are doing ok without him. Maybe someday in the future he can prove himself again – but not convinced.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 9:53 am

And with players like Joseph (established) and T'eo playing very well for the Lions,and Marchant, Sam James, Tompkins etc etc all coming through, Manu should be keeping his head down and grafting on getting back to his best, and staying injury free.

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Post by munkian on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:04 am

cascough wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
cascough wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Manu seems to be a bit of a trouble magnet where England are concerned.

Does he have these sorts of problems at Tigers, or is it just frustration at being out for so long?

I think some of this is a bit overblown.

The only notable Rugby he's missed through indiscipline is a prem final (when he lamped Ashton). You could argue the World Cup - THIS IS THE POLICE OFFICER BIT falls under that THAT BEING CAUSING TROUBLE, but if I remember rightly Manu maintains his innocence and insists he was injured anyway, and so was advised to plead guilty for a swift and speedy resolution.

The other incidents being the ferry jump (daft, but he was just a pup in his first season for Eng) and the Cameron bunny ears thing (which is ridiculously overblown in my eyes) might be a bit of undesirable press, but a bit of a stretch to call them trouble IMO.

Perhaps the reason these things are so prominent are because he's spent so much time injured, that he is inevitably in the spotlight when he is fit to play.

Given he hasn't actually missed much Rugby through indiscipline, and this is his first misdemeanor under Jones I'm fully expecting Jones to give him another chance.

You included him doing bunny ears over Cameron but not assaulting a female police officer?

I have included that. I've explained it badly, clearly.

He lamped Ashton, missed some rugby.

I meant you could argue that he also missed rugby (the WC) and include under the banner of "trouble". But I was just pointing out that it's not as black and white as that as he said afterwards he was injured anyway and was always going to miss the world cup, and that he plead guilty under bad advice.

My overall point being, a few people have said he attracts/causes trouble, but that despite this reputation, he hasn't actually missed a lot of Rugby because of it. His time away from the game for injury is accentuating this reputation. IMO.

Is that like how he stayed in the UK on a six month visa for 6 years because of 'bad advice' ?

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Post by cascough on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:11 am

Hmm, people seem to think I'm defending Manu. I'm not. I'm merely dispelling a narrative.

Let me put it another way.

The number of England games Tuilagi was fit to play in and subsequently missed for discipline related issues currently stands at (I believe) 0.

This is not something that you can say for someone such as Joe Launchbury.

With that in mind, I'd expect him to get a second chance with Eddie. His injury record is a far bigger worry.

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Post by munkian on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:16 am

cascough wrote:Hmm, people seem to think I'm defending Manu. I'm not. I'm merely dispelling a narrative.

Let me put it another way.

The number of England games Tuilagi was fit to play in and subsequently missed for discipline related issues currently stands at (I believe) 0.

This is not something that you can say for someone such as Joe Launchbury.

With that in mind, I'd expect him to get a second chance with Eddie. His injury record is a far bigger worry.

I doubt he will. Hes made Jones look a bit daft as he was singing his praises rather publically and has now been sent home in disgrace.

He's not worth all the trouble that surrounds him, England has better options anyway.

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:18 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:And with players like Joseph (established) and T'eo playing very well for the Lions,and Marchant, Sam James, Tompkins etc etc all coming through, Manu should be keeping his head down and grafting on getting back to his best, and staying injury free.

Exactly. He was very lucky to be there anyway, as he's done next to nothing in a few seasons.

He's now blown this chance so needs to lay down a marker for Tigers, stay fit and play at his best. If he does then Jones will pick him on merit regardless of anything else. But equally he'll bin him for good if he doesn't change and improve.

Marchant is the future anyway, Manu is yesterday's man.

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:21 am

munkian wrote:He's not worth all the trouble that surrounds him, England has better options anyway.

First part a lot of coaches would probably agree with, the second is simply wrong if he's on form.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:21 am

Manu has still been dining off that performance against NZ back in 2012 for more than 4 years now. Even Jones has shown that he was awed by that.

“I know he can demolish the All Blacks, so he’s worth time, he’s worth effort and worth a lot of care,” said Jones. “He’s just got to get fit and healthy. The more he works hard and diligently, the more chance he has of playing. Everything looks pretty positive so we’ve just got to pray that this positivity keeps going and he has a period where he is injury-free and can show what he is capable of. If his motivation and desire’s right, he can be an outstanding player for us and add to the depth of the squad.”


Jones said: “I don’t think anyone’s done it with the Lions … No one has ripped them apart – apart from Manu.”



More than 4 years ago..... Problem is that there is such a desire for Manu to repeat his former glory. It's basically glossing the cold hard realism that he needs to prove he can get back to that level.


I would compare him to Cipriani - another player who seemed fast tracked to glory and many England caps. He also picked up an injury which has seemingly hampered him.

Cipriani also put in a master class vs Ireland - I believe in 2008.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaN7zB8ktu8

He's another player with mental demons he must conquer.

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Post by cascough on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:26 am

I've just used facts to show that the narrative of "The trouble that surrounds him" doesn't impact on England. But you continue with it anyway, Munkian?

Fair enough if YOU wouldn't pick him again, but you don't pick the team. Since this is his first misdemeanor under Eddie, and it hasn't actually caused him to miss any games yet, I can easily see a situation where he is given a second chance.

What Eddie said about him in the media hasn't been changed by this. He is still, at his best, a special player. Eddie has also set a precedent before with second chances. He prattled on about how Dylan Hartley needed to sort his discipline out and when Dylan got banned again...hey presto, nothing changed.

It very much looks to me that if EJ decides someone is his man, he will stick by them. And he doesn't give a jot if the media, or anyone on here thinks MT is a bad egg.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:28 am

On a separate note I think its funny how much of a stir having Marcus Smith (the young quins FH ) in the squad has caused.

Cant believe the number of people on social media actually believing hes fourth choice England FH etc because hes there in the squad (a training squad) and quoting Eddie saying he is etc etc...lol What a hoot! People really are deluded....or clueless!


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Post by munkian on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:30 am

Scottrf wrote:
munkian wrote:He's not worth all the trouble that surrounds him, England has better options anyway.

First part a lot of coaches would probably agree with, the second is simply wrong if he's on form.

As others have said, hes still dining out on a great performance against NZ 4 years ago. I can't think of much before that or anything afterwards.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:31 am

Re Manu
He needs to get his head down in a potentially strong Leicester side and stay fit and find form.

On form and fully fit, he's top class. A game changer and game winner.

But some one at Tigers needs to get hold of him and say..."right enough of the stupidity now! Theres a time and place for these sorts of behaviour...time to grow up! "

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:33 am

munkian wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
munkian wrote:He's not worth all the trouble that surrounds him, England has better options anyway.

First part a lot of coaches would probably agree with, the second is simply wrong if he's on form.

As others have said, hes still dining out on a great performance against NZ 4 years ago. I can't think of much before that or anything afterwards.

Don't exaggerate. Manu put in a host of class performances for tigers and england, it just happened that his best (to date) was saved for the best team in the world so everyone focuses on that one and forgets the others.

I would love to see a fit and firing Manu....but im doubtful we ever will.

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:36 am

munkian wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
munkian wrote:He's not worth all the trouble that surrounds him, England has better options anyway.

First part a lot of coaches would probably agree with, the second is simply wrong if he's on form.

As others have said, hes still dining out on a great performance against NZ 4 years ago. I can't think of much before that or anything afterwards.
Ridiculous.

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Post by munkian on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:38 am

Jones said: “I don’t think anyone’s done it with the Lions … No one has ripped them apart – apart from Manu.”

This is balls too. Jones is just bitter about a fairly successful Lions tour that he was nothing to do with.
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Post by BamBam on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:40 am

Draws are successful eh

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:43 am

Tuilagi at his best is simply class. Needs a run of games. Will it ever happen?

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Post by beshocked on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:46 am

Geordiefalcon how many of those performances have been post that NZ performance though?

Manu's best was in 2010-12. Sure he's had cameos since but because of the injuries his appearances have been sporadic.

I agree that at his best Manu was a force to be reckoned with but it's 4 years ago.


As for Marcus Smith, it doesn't really matter. I think Jones wants to challenge and push others.

Hopefully it will act as an incentive to Max Malins to push on. Possibly Cipriani too.

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Post by munkian on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:47 am

BamBam wrote:Draws are successful eh

I said fairly successful - especially compared to the absolute hiding they were predicted to get.

A loss, a win and a draw against NZ in NZ is a positive - especially considering how stellar the current NZ team is.
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Post by BamBam on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 10:56 am

Mentality of a loser

You'd never get Martin Johnson or Richie McCaw describing a draw as a success even if they were the underdogs

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Post by munkian on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 11:02 am

BamBam wrote:Mentality of a loser

You'd never get Martin Johnson or Richie McCaw describing a draw as a success even if they were the underdogs

Christ, beginning to remember why I put you on ignore in the first place you chore of human.
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Post by BamBam on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 11:09 am

Laugh Laugh

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Post by beshocked on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 11:16 am

I agree with munkian.

To be fair the Lions did win one game albeit fortunate that SBW was a fool.

Expectations going into the tour were low - I thought they'd lose 3-0 so a drawn series is much more than expected.

It's also more impressive when you consider Gatland stuck with AWJ in all 3 games despite him not being one of the form locks.

Oh and no Billy Vunipola or Hogg.

As for Manu, there’s the hope, he’ll get back to his best (2010-2012) but no guarantee.

I personally don't believe he'll get back there.

Ben Morgan hasn't. At one time - he was the primary no 8 in England. Not the same player he was in 2014.


Burrell had an excellent 6 nations in 2014 but hasn't looked like he'll feature for England again any time soon.


Of course there could well be youngsters who continue to pile on the pressure.

In the centres alone there are the likes of Mallinder,Marchant,Stephenson and Tompkins who might do something. That's before you consider the likes of Slade,Teo and Joseph.

Tompkins doesn't seem to be on Jones' radar but if he can have a breakthrough season who knows?

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Post by stub on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 12:14 pm

Such a shame regarding Manu - seems like a huge waste of talent. I've reconciled myself to us not seeing him at his best again but I really hope that I'm proved wrong.
I've just read that he rolled in at 4.30am so not surprised that clashed with the squad's culture!

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 12:31 pm

munkian wrote:
cascough wrote:Hmm, people seem to think I'm defending Manu. I'm not. I'm merely dispelling a narrative.

Let me put it another way.

The number of England games Tuilagi was fit to play in and subsequently missed for discipline related issues currently stands at (I believe) 0.

This is not something that you can say for someone such as Joe Launchbury.

With that in mind, I'd expect him to get a second chance with Eddie. His injury record is a far bigger worry.

I doubt he will. Hes made Jones look a bit daft as he was singing his praises rather publically and has now been sent home in disgrace.

He's not worth all the trouble that surrounds him, England has better options anyway.


Jones was singing Manu's praises because he was asked, as he would be because of the hype around the player.

As for the future EJ is here to win. If he thinks Manu will help him to do so then he will play him. If he thinks Manu will be a disruptive influence in the camp he won't. He isn't going to care about tabloid opinions unless he feels that it is going to cause too much disruption, because, as we well know, he likes to keep the media focus on himself and off the players.

As for the player I think EJ would play him if he shows the right form. He isn't more skillful than the new generation, but he is more skilled than given credit for. He scored a lot of tries with the kinds of interceptions that Joseph is rightly applauded for. Then there is the bulk and power that he brings. So much of the talent coming through (e.g Marchant the Joseph clone) do offer a great deal but none have the power that Manu could bring. Its the contrast that he offers that could make him important to EJ. You can't help thinking that that is why Te'o was so readily included into the squad as he is possibly the closest player we have to Manu who is available.

All of this is dependent on fitness, form, and getting games played. Despite the hype all bets are off until he's proved himself.

The last thing that is worth mentioning is the reputation for being injury prone. I don't think it is proven. The groin injury was, as we all know, hugely problematic but it looked like he was finally over it. The most recent knee injury was bad luck rather than any inherent weakness on his part, and the additional time out of the game won't have done any harm if there are still any other lingering problems.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 2:18 pm

Manu has only had 9 caps in the last 4 years - that's pretty injury prone (5 caps in 3 years).

http://www.sporting-heroes.net/rugby/england/manu-tuilagi-11341/international-rugby-caps_a36670/


I'd say the hype isn't warranted. Manu needs to prove himself again. I hope he does. I just don't think he will.

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Post by BamBam on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 2:24 pm

I think he needs to prove he can get fit and back to his usual form again, I don't think his pedigree as an international player is in doubt (admittedly, 3 years have passed since we've seen it, but the game hasn't moved on that much that his style of play is no longer useful)

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 2:50 pm

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon how many of those performances have been post that NZ performance though?

Manu's best was in 2010-12. Sure he's had cameos since but because of the injuries his appearances have been sporadic.

I agree that at his best Manu was a force to be reckoned with but it's 4 years ago.


As for Marcus Smith, it doesn't really matter. I think Jones wants to challenge and push others.

Hopefully it will act as an incentive to Max Malins to push on. Possibly Cipriani too.

Hes pretty much been injured since 4 years ago though. But he's back fit now so Jones is using these "TRAINING CAMPS" to have a little look at him...like he's doing with others like Marcus Smith etc etc etc.....

Now for those saying he doesn't deem that, then I disagree. He's a destructive match winner on top form...regardless if that was about 3-4 years ago. Jones has taken the time to have a little look and see what sort of shape he is in....and that's absolutely right! And its not like its taking up another players position...as its only a "TRAINING CAMP"!!!!

The biggest issue is that once again Manu has shown his immaturity at a time when really its in his best interest to show the opposite!

And yes i agree re Marcus Smith...and i keep saying...this is a "TRAINING CAMP" where Jones and the coaches are getting a look at all manner of players old and new...and giving them targets and training plans etc.

Max Mallins, Mercer, Calum Chick etc etc etc etc will all be involved in them through out the year!!

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 2:59 pm

Im a massive Manu backer as a player but going out drinking late was just ridiculous, especially after he had missed a world cup through his drunken behaviour. 

Jones has always been a fan of his and made it quite clear when he took over he was one of the players he expected to be at the heart of his plans, its only injuries that stopped that.

But his first chance to get back into the England fold he goes out and does this? Absolute insanity and indicative of a serious unresolved problem. Hes been hung out to dry in the past over things like the swimming and bunny ears but this is up there with Cipriani and Henson levels of idiocy and lack of self discipline.

Its going to make it a lot easier for him to be overlooked in future even if he can string together a season for the first time. Huge wasted talent.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 3:29 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon how many of those performances have been post that NZ performance though?

Manu's best was in 2010-12. Sure he's had cameos since but because of the injuries his appearances have been sporadic.

I agree that at his best Manu was a force to be reckoned with but it's 4 years ago.


As for Marcus Smith, it doesn't really matter. I think Jones wants to challenge and push others.

Hopefully it will act as an incentive to Max Malins to push on. Possibly Cipriani too.

Hes pretty much been injured since 4 years ago though. But he's back fit now so Jones is using these "TRAINING CAMPS" to have a little look at him...like he's doing with others like Marcus Smith etc etc etc.....

Now for those saying he doesn't deem that, then I disagree. He's a destructive match winner on top form...regardless if that was about 3-4 years ago. Jones has taken the time to have a little look and see what sort of shape he is in....and that's absolutely right! And its not like its taking up another players position...as its only a "TRAINING CAMP"!!!!

The biggest issue is that once again Manu has shown his immaturity at a time when really its in his best interest to show the opposite!

And yes i agree re Marcus Smith...and i keep saying...this is a "TRAINING CAMP" where Jones and the coaches are getting a look at all manner of players old and new...and giving them targets and training plans etc.

Max Mallins, Mercer, Calum Chick etc etc etc etc will all be involved in them through out the year!!


Player X can be world class in training but doesn't make player X world class.

Manu will prove more by staying fit and putting in a string of good club performances.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 08 Aug 2017, 3:55 pm

Yes and players can be poor in training and world class on the pitch.

These sessions aren't about that...they're about seeing what shape people are in...areas they want people to work on ...setting plans etc.

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Post by beshocked on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 11:32 am

I agree it's important but I just hope Jones sufficiently co ordinates with clubs because obviously what to work on might not be the same as what clubs are looking for.

Also a player's shape will obviously differ on whether they've been on holiday boozing or just coming back from a tiring tour from NZ etc. Also some players naturally look a bit on the overweight side.

I feel that a conflict of interests didn't exactly help the Burgess situation.

There also has to be a clear understanding between the clubs and Jones I feel in regards to rest periods.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 12:32 pm

beshocked wrote:Manu has only had 9 caps in the last 4 years - that's pretty injury prone (5 caps in 3 years).

http://www.sporting-heroes.net/rugby/england/manu-tuilagi-11341/international-rugby-caps_a36670/


I'd say the hype isn't warranted. Manu needs to prove himself again. I hope he does. I just don't think he will.

I can see we are heading towards his knee problem being his fault

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 12:33 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Im a massive Manu backer as a player but going out drinking late was just ridiculous, especially after he had missed a world cup through his drunken behaviour. 

Jones has always been a fan of his and made it quite clear when he took over he was one of the players he expected to be at the heart of his plans, its only injuries that stopped that.

But his first chance to get back into the England fold he goes out and does this? Absolute insanity and indicative of a serious unresolved problem. Hes been hung out to dry in the past over things like the swimming and bunny ears but this is up there with Cipriani and Henson levels of idiocy and lack of self discipline.

Its going to make it a lot easier for him to be overlooked in future even if he can string together a season for the first time. Huge wasted talent.

He missed the WC because of injury - as in the groin wasn't right. The drunken assault thing was not related.

If he had been fit then it would have been a good reason to drop him though

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Post by kingelderfield on Wed 09 Aug 2017, 10:01 pm

I suspect this will be their one and only last chance. Jones could always pull them back in at a later stage even if they do screw up again, but realistically the competition is such that they cannot afford to disadvantage themselves if they wish to be selected to be apart of a group that has achieved and progressed very well enough without them.

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Post by propdavid_london on Thu 10 Aug 2017, 11:38 am

We haven't seen Manu play for so long! I think that Solomona and Manu are in 2 very different places at the moment.

Solomona offers a level of finishing that the other wing candidates just don't have at the moment. We have seen that finishing in Argentina and for Sale - so he is a bit more of a known quantity. (great attack - suspect positioning)

Manu on the other hand - we know what he could do 3yrs ago.....

I suspect that Manu must be on last chance saloon, but don't think Denny should be.


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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 10 Aug 2017, 12:04 pm

propdavid_london wrote:..I suspect that Manu must be on last chance saloon...

He's only 26. Even if Jones decides not to use him, then he'll still only be 28 when the next England manager is appointed. That's two years younger than Chris Ashton and Nick Abendanon are now, and six years younger than David Strettle. It's more likely that fitness will be the real limit on Manu's career.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 10 Aug 2017, 12:42 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:..I suspect that Manu must be on last chance saloon...

He's only 26. Even if Jones decides not to use him, then he'll still only be 28 when the next England manager is appointed. That's two years younger than Chris Ashton and Nick Abendanon are now, and six years younger than David Strettle. It's more likely that fitness will be the real limit on Manu's career.


Hartley had two last chances under Lancaster, got banned, then got made captain by Jones.

#justsaying

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 10 Aug 2017, 2:36 pm

Ultimately Manu needs to get his head down and put in some storming performances for Leicester...and play consistently without getting injured.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 10 Aug 2017, 3:45 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ultimately Manu needs to get his head down and put in some storming performances for Leicester...and play consistently without getting injured.

Players have come back from similar 'injury ravaged' periods than Manu has had and performed to their old levels. Pocock is the most prevalent example of this. Many more fail to recover fully though.

If Manu can keep his groin injury, which was the longest layoff, behind him then I think he can reach those old levels. His latest knee injury was an isolated incident rather than a recurrence of former injuries. He was hit by three defenders at once as a very organised defence targeted Tigers biggest gain line threat. It was a contact that could have blown out any players knee.

He's looked continually leaner since the 15 months out rehabbing that groin problem which suggests he is looking to stay lighter now. Personally I think he's at his best when he uses his pace as much as power so that can only be good thing. No longer pilling on the pounds during his trips back to Somoa seemed to show a more mature side which this incident sadly contradicts.

Wilkinson has spoken frequently about his injuries forcing him to refine his tackling technique even further and gain better judgement on when to 'go for the hit' and when to just get a ball carrier to the deck. I hope Manu does similar following this latest injury by improving his distribution further to make it more difficult for defences to double/triple up on him.

If Tigers can get Youngs, Ford, May, Toomua, Manu, Thompstone, Veainu on the pitch at the same time then targeting Manu should be more difficult anyway! Time will tell...

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 11 Aug 2017, 2:14 pm

Lost ....
You are correct that he was already going to miss the cup when he got his conviction but he was publically booted out of the squad with the conviction being cited as the reason anyway.
I guess the point there was to underline thats shat would have happened had he been fit and should have made it clear to him that whether he felt the whole incident got blown out of proprtion and that he was left to hang out to dry ( some element of truth) that its really not a good idea for a high profile large agressive man to get steaming drunk in public places.
Incidents like that are inevitable, aside from the impact it has on training and health. Hes far from the only player to come a cropper but never learns.

As a player I think he has a future, but this has really set his england credentials back. Jones was making a special case for a player he obviously rates very highly by having hima at the camp ....poor way to repay that.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 12 Aug 2017, 11:00 am

A bit off topic as academy related, but how did England U18s go in their win over France U18s? Wales are up next - we just beat SA 30-28, so either we're a bit better this year or SA are a lot worse. They've been the best in this competition in the last couple of seasons.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 15 Aug 2017, 8:01 am

One more for the selection pot for the next get together, Tom Stephenson was back on Saturday against a very poor half a Dragon side, he looked sharp and if he can stay injury free is another contender for the 12 shirt. He is a very classy player that has unfortunately had the last two years out through consecutive serious injuries.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 15 Aug 2017, 9:43 am

Great news for Saints and hopefully in time England. Stephenson looked a classy act with all the skills to be a very good 12 or 13. So misfortune for a young player such as that to basically miss 2 consecutive seasons through injury.

It wasn't long ago that Stephenson and Tompkins were the age group centres many were raving about. For different reasons neither of them have yet to really kick on but both still have plenty of time and talent to spare.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Tue 15 Aug 2017, 6:32 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:..I suspect that Manu must be on last chance saloon...

He's only 26. Even if Jones decides not to use him, then he'll still only be 28 when the next England manager is appointed. That's two years younger than Chris Ashton and Nick Abendanon are now, and six years younger than David Strettle. It's more likely that fitness will be the real limit on Manu's career.
The main limit is that the game has moved on in the last year or so. He just does not have the skill levels or pace of the alternatives. I hope he stays fit and can learn to be less of a tit because Leicester deserve some payback but I suspect he will only be a good club player and a fringe international.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 15 Aug 2017, 8:58 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:..I suspect that Manu must be on last chance saloon...

He's only 26. Even if Jones decides not to use him, then he'll still only be 28 when the next England manager is appointed. That's two years younger than Chris Ashton and Nick Abendanon are now, and six years younger than David Strettle. It's more likely that fitness will be the real limit on Manu's career.
The main limit is that the game has moved on in the last year or so. He just does not have the skill levels or pace of the alternatives. I hope he stays fit and can learn to be less of a tit because Leicester deserve some payback but I suspect he will only be a good club player and a fringe international.

We'll see. He has still got it all to prove, but Eddy is a fan (at least a fan of what he could do on the pitch)

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