England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

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England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)

Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by robbo277 on Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:40 pm

Statistically one will be injured at any given time? Then just fives for starting spots?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:32 pm

SamTheQuin wrote:How old is Haskell these days? I can't remember him having a top, top game since the Australia series and would like to see some replacements in there for him. He gives away so many silly penalties, similar to Marler who is so petulant at times, he's been better this season at Quins but you can wind him up so easily and is a yellow card machine at times.

How do you choose the locks out of Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury and Kruis - four top class players.


Is Marlers record that bad Sam? I cant remember him getting loads of yellows.

Haskell is 32 so hes not old. Just needs to be fit and show the consistency that he has showed the majority of time since Jones has been in charge. But its clear Jones has no sentiment and if Haskell doesnt meet high standards he has now set...he'll sharp be replaced by the Curry's or Underhill or someone who IS performing to the level and style that Jones wants.

As to the locks...well ideally I prefer a pair who start regularly but in this case we have 4 genuinely outstanding options and more coming through all the time. Kruis is number 1, he is a lineout king, he has the ability of a back rower having played there lots and he also can show some real old school physicality at times!

If Launchbury had that little bit more Lineout ability he would be nailed on starter alongside Kruis but that slight weakness...means the others come in to play.

I guess its horses for courses. If your playing against a strong lineout side...play Lawes or Itoje. If not put in Launchbury

Don't worry Witty is on his way...a monster of a unit who is the quickest lock ive ever seen! And his lineout work is coming on nicely...

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by DaveM on Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:11 pm

It will be an interesting selection. I guess Williams is third choice TH, and Maunder may be third choice SH. It is going to seem very strange leaving out one of the four locks from the matchday squad (actually I wonder if he might use Itoje and Lawes as cover for the flanks so he can have all 4 in).

I think the issues for the season are identifying the starting 7 for the WC (I don't think it will be Haskell), starting someone other than Brown at FB in at least one game (most likely to be Watson), and trying to identify our best 10, 12, 13 combination (Ford, Farrell, Joseph isn't bad, but I think we can do better).

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by lostinwales on Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:19 am

All 4 locks are wonderful players but I think it would be a mistake to try and shoehorn all 4 into a team unless you consider that one of them can do a better job at, say, 6 than the alternatives.

For the right game Itoje or Lawes might, but if I had a choice I'd have Robshaw (1st) or Wilson (2nd now?) at 6, and if you want someone more 'attacking' there are good options.

We are going to have a similar problem in the back 3, especially if Earle and Solomona up their games.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Hood83 on Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:22 am

lostinwales wrote:All 4 locks are wonderful players but I think it would be a mistake to try and shoehorn all 4 into a team unless you consider that one of them can do a better job at, say, 6 than the alternatives.

For the right game Itoje or Lawes might, but if I had a choice I'd have Robshaw (1st) or Wilson (2nd now?) at 6, and if you want someone more 'attacking' there are good options.

We are going to have a similar problem in the back 3, especially if Earle and Solomona up their games.

I agree, though I also think DaveM is right on the key challenges for us now.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by DaveM on Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:45 am

I don't know how I'd feel about all 4 in the matchday squad. I guess if you did that it would involve having two locks on the bench, with Itoje potentially being used at 7 at some point and Lawes at 6 (or you just leave Robshaw to play the full 80 and replace one of the starting locks). Jones does like his finishers, and all 4 locks are either world class or right on the verge - making them currently all better players than any of our flankers (I have a lot of time for Robshaw as a player I should add).

I wouldn't be confident this would happen, but I wouldn't be surprised either. Eventually Underhill and the Currys should make this approach redundant, but if Jones wants to carry on experimenting in the autumn internationals......

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by DaveM on Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:50 am

And I agree the back 3 is also looking very competitive. I'd imagine May will be squeezed out first, but then if Solomona kicks on and EJ still persists with Brown at FB then things get difficult. Actually, if Solomona progresses it might force EJ to give Watson or Daly a start at FB.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Ozzy3213 on Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:12 am

LondonTiger wrote:It will be interesting if George goes well, but perhaps more interesting if he is OK but not world beating and is moved to the bench.

Assuming everyone is fit, what team would people like to see com 11th November when we meet Argentina again?

Watson, Nowell, Joseph, Teo, Daly, Farrell, Youngs;
Vunipola, George, Cole, Launchbury, Kruis, Robshaw, Underhill, Vunipola

Hartley, Genge, Sinckler, Itoje, Hughes, Care, Ford, May
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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Hood83 on Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:13 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:It will be interesting if George goes well, but perhaps more interesting if he is OK but not world beating and is moved to the bench.

Assuming everyone is fit, what team would people like to see com 11th November when we meet Argentina again?

Watson, Nowell, Joseph, Teo, Daly, Farrell, Youngs;
Vunipola, George, Cole, Launchbury, Kruis, Robshaw, Underhill, Vunipola

Hartley, Genge, Sinckler, Itoje, Hughes, Care, Ford, May

Watson, Nowell, Joseph, Teo, Daly, Farrell, Care;
Marler, George, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Haskell, Vunipola

Hartley, M Vunipola, Sinckler, Itoje, Hughes, Youngs, Ford, May

I know that may look horribly pedestrian, and I'm not convinced by the midfield, but I think I'd want a scrummaging front row first up against them. At this point I don't think Underhill has done enough, but I'd want him very close to starting. I'd get lynched for not having Kruis, I just don't rate him beyond the line out, he seems to be underpowered for his weight - but I imagine my locks could malfunction at the line out, granted.


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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:10 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
SamTheQuin wrote:How old is Haskell these days? I can't remember him having a top, top game since the Australia series and would like to see some replacements in there for him. He gives away so many silly penalties, similar to Marler who is so petulant at times, he's been better this season at Quins but you can wind him up so easily and is a yellow card machine at times.

How do you choose the locks out of Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury and Kruis - four top class players.


Is Marlers record that bad Sam? I cant remember him getting loads of yellows.

Haskell is 32 so hes not old. Just needs to be fit and show the consistency that he has showed the majority of time since Jones has been in charge. But its clear Jones has no sentiment and if Haskell doesnt meet high standards he has now set...he'll sharp be replaced by the Curry's or Underhill or someone who IS performing to the level and style that Jones wants.

As to the locks...well ideally I prefer a pair who start regularly but in this case we have 4 genuinely outstanding options and more coming through all the time. Kruis is number 1, he is a lineout king, he has the ability of a back rower having played there lots and he also can show some real old school physicality at times!

If Launchbury had that little bit more Lineout ability he would be nailed on starter alongside Kruis but that slight weakness...means the others come in to play.

I guess its horses for courses. If your playing against a strong lineout side...play Lawes or Itoje. If not put in Launchbury

Don't worry Witty is on his way...a monster of a unit who is the quickest lock ive ever seen! And his lineout work is coming on nicely...

Of the four locks I question, Lawes has arguably been the most physical over the second half of the season, his ball carrying is now top class, he not only calls the lineout but is probably as good as Kruis, plus he is a tackling machine and can still put those big hits in. I suspect he is also the quickest of the locks, he can chase down centres and wingers when given the space to get up speed, a bit like Tom Croft, but with muscle. For me, a fit Lawes would be one of the first names on the team sheet.

I have to admit that a year ago, I thought he was finished as an international player, but he has bulked up a bit and put the work in as EJ asked and now he is verging on "world class", just not sure how much longer his body will last though, after every game he looks like he has had an argument with a bulldozer.

I will admit to a slight bias here, but we all have our favourites.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Hood83 on Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:02 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
SamTheQuin wrote:How old is Haskell these days? I can't remember him having a top, top game since the Australia series and would like to see some replacements in there for him. He gives away so many silly penalties, similar to Marler who is so petulant at times, he's been better this season at Quins but you can wind him up so easily and is a yellow card machine at times.

How do you choose the locks out of Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury and Kruis - four top class players.


Is Marlers record that bad Sam? I cant remember him getting loads of yellows.

Haskell is 32 so hes not old. Just needs to be fit and show the consistency that he has showed the majority of time since Jones has been in charge. But its clear Jones has no sentiment and if Haskell doesnt meet high standards he has now set...he'll sharp be replaced by the Curry's or Underhill or someone who IS performing to the level and style that Jones wants.

As to the locks...well ideally I prefer a pair who start regularly but in this case we have 4 genuinely outstanding options and more coming through all the time. Kruis is number 1, he is a lineout king, he has the ability of a back rower having played there lots and he also can show some real old school physicality at times!

If Launchbury had that little bit more Lineout ability he would be nailed on starter alongside Kruis but that slight weakness...means the others come in to play.

I guess its horses for courses. If your playing against a strong lineout side...play Lawes or Itoje. If not put in Launchbury

Don't worry Witty is on his way...a monster of a unit who is the quickest lock ive ever seen! And his lineout work is coming on nicely...

Of the four locks I question, Lawes has arguably been the most physical over the second half of the season, his ball carrying is now top class, he not only calls the lineout but is probably as good as Kruis, plus he is a tackling machine and can still put those big hits in. I suspect he is also the quickest of the locks, he can chase down centres and wingers when given the space to get up speed, a bit like Tom Croft, but with muscle. For me, a fit Lawes would be one of the first names on the team sheet.

I have to admit that a year ago, I thought he was finished as an international player, but he has bulked up a bit and put the work in as EJ asked and now he is verging on "world class", just not sure how much longer his body will last though, after every game he looks like he has had an argument with a bulldozer.

I will admit to a slight bias here, but we all have our favourites.

After watching the Lions it does make me wonder "just how good ARE our locks?". I struggle to see any of them dealing with the physicality of the ABs locks, especially Retallick. I always thought Lawes punched below his weight but I completely agree with you on this, he's now our best carrier, incredibly. Which is why he'd be my first pick.

Here's a question, what would your England team be to play the ABs? Would it look any different. I think Kruis and Launchbury are fantastic but I could see them being marmalised by them. Any of those four paired with a vintage Simon Shaw would be fine....but we just don't have that type of lock.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:25 pm

The AB locks are just streets ahead of anybody else right now, truly outstanding.

I'd argue we have 4 of the best after that.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by SamTheQuin on Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:11 pm

Lions test showed that both Daly and Watson can cut it against the best. One of those will be fullback.

Locks a good topic, only Itoje seems to have the physicality to really compete with the ABs, each time I see Kruis play in a big, tough game he disappears on that front. Lawes has improved out of sight, but I would like to see Itoje and Launchbury given a go, with Lawes off the bench for his impact.

Itoje could certainly learn to lead the lineout. Cant believe AWJ started ahead of him at the weekend.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Gooseberry on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:09 pm

Its a bit of a funny set this year. Two easy games against Samoa and Argentina and they'd be expected to beat Australia as well.
Surely a chance to try out some more new faces in an extended run and rest more of the Lions and/or even leave out people like Brown and Haskell.

If its an exersize in "who would be your first choice England side right now" then Sinckler, Teo and Lawes are knocking pretty loudly on the door.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:22 pm

Kruis os our best lock imo.

Still unconvinced with Daly. His defence is not great and he lacks that instinct of a natural winger. I think he's the perfect bench option or should fight it out for 15.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:41 pm

I think this thread is summing up the lock situation....

Between 4/5 of us, we've nearly ALL picked different options and combos and said a different lock is our best.

I agree Sgt, I think Daly is a FB or centre. Leave wing to the specialist wingers.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:42 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Its a bit of a funny set this year. Two easy games against Samoa and Argentina and they'd be expected to beat Australia as well.
Surely a chance to try out some more new faces in an extended run and rest more of the Lions and/or even leave out people like Brown and Haskell.

If its an exersize in "who would be your first choice England side right now" then Sinckler, Teo and Lawes are knocking pretty loudly on the door.

He's making a very big statement for the 12 shirt.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:45 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Its a bit of a funny set this year. Two easy games against Samoa and Argentina and they'd be expected to beat Australia as well.
Surely a chance to try out some more new faces in an extended run and rest more of the Lions and/or even leave out people like Brown and Haskell.

If its an exersize in "who would be your first choice England side right now" then Sinckler, Teo and Lawes are knocking pretty loudly on the door.

He's making a very big statement for the 12 shirt.


Yes and no, he makes yards but he doesn't bring anyone else into the game, should be different for England but I've not been as impressed by his overall contribution as others are.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by beshocked on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:47 pm

I think Farrell Jr's spot is potentially in peril if Teo is challenging at 12.

If Ford is 10 with Teo at 12 there's no starting spot for Farrell Jr.


As for 2nd row, I'd say that Lawes-Itoje are probably the frontrunners at the moment.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by SamTheQuin on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:51 pm

Geordie Falcon, is getting harder to pick an England team because a lot more guys are putting their hands up for selection now.

If we can find another good hooker so that George can start instead of Hartley (wouldn't have Hartley on the bench because he doesnt offer impact), would like to see replacements for Cole and Brown.

Have to find a position for Daly to be involved in the starting XV, whether that is wing, fb or outside centre. We need some wingers to step up again, no one is really nailing down a shirt at the moment. I like a back three of Nowell, Daly and Watson as it can interchange a fair bit too and they all offer something a little different.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:21 pm

I think theres competition growing for Cole now. Sinkler is a lion, Even Collier put in a few good shifts in Argentina that suggests he can come good.

And Paul Hill is very young and will come through.

I think that back 3 is a good call. It has everything except maybe a bit of brute power...maybe something Earle can bring to the party.


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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by BamBam on Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:22 pm

Solomonaaaaaa Run

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by SamTheQuin on Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:25 pm

Is Earle that big? The young London Irish winger looks very good, huge bloke too. Big fan of Solomana too.

The Lions tour is showing that to compete with the ABs we need to find some physicality in the midfield, the way Sonny Bill carried the ball up, he must have got over the gain line on each carry (apart from when he got Teo'd). Be brilliant to see a fully fit Tuilagi back but Im not sure that will happen.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:27 pm

Earle isn't huge no, but he looks a bit more powerful and direct than say Nowell or Watson.

Cockasniga has a lot of developing to do before he is considered. See how he goes in the prem first.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by yappysnap on Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:30 pm

I always felt Kruis was over rated a bit. Yes brilliant at lineout time and good at a counter maul. But around the park he seems anonymous, his carrying is the weakest of all our locks, likewise tackling.

He's where Lawes was, could be great but things to work on.

Lawes has come past that and should be a starter for England. Then it's between itoje and Launchbury to partner him.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:33 pm

Launchbury has been the best nh lock in the last year. Itoje has been calling the lone out. Sorted. Lawes and Kruis can battle from the bench with george winning for me.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by SamTheQuin on Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:39 pm

Completely agree with your comments on Kruis, he was the Lions weakest player at the weekend, couldn't cope with their physicality. Amazing lineout operator, but so was Borthwick.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Gooseberry on Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:39 pm

Its amazing how off the back of one bad game as a Lions starter Kruis is now rubbish. 

Its not so long ago that Lawes' career was writen off.

Fact is the 4 established guys are all very good "on their day" and the ones who were given an oppoirtunity  in their absence didnt exactly disgrace themselves either. Its certainly not a position we need to fret over.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by kingelderfield on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:06 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The AB locks are just streets ahead of anybody else right now, truly outstanding.

I'd argue we have 4 of the best after that.

Play them every Saturday for the next 6 months and see how good they look after that?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by SamTheQuin on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:08 pm

I'd disagree with that Gooseberry, quite a few games when it is physical and Kruis goes missing as his style isn't overly physical. Excellent lineout technician, but apart from that I'd have him below the other three. Launchbury and Itoje the way forward.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:26 pm

When has Kruis gone missing for England?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:31 pm

You have to throw into the mix the 2 locks getting it in he neck most were picked when injured or literally just back. Maybe not that much of a surprise they aren't showing amazing form.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by kingelderfield on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:32 pm

My main concern will be the ongoing issue of player welfare as highlighted by Jones's comments regards post Lions player burnout. Its good to hear that some players maybe rested over the autumn.

I can imagine a number are going to struggle with Lawes looking particularly knackered. The guy needs to be rested for his own good, he just never gives up.

A couple of other points;

earlier on in the thread someone mentioned regards the comparably light autumn program? Well maybe this has been considered post Lions?

I don't think anyone has mentioned Tuilagi. I actually think he's probably done, though it obviously would be great if he were able to come back and compete for selection.

Finally, along with Brown its perhaps likely that Haskell is nearing the end of his international journey? I think that's probably the case, however I'm sure Jones will give him the preseason and autumn before he makes any decision.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:35 pm

kingelderfield wrote:My main concern will be the ongoing issue of player welfare as highlighted by Jones's comments regards post Lions player burnout. Its good to hear that some players maybe rested over the autumn.

I can imagine a number are going to struggle with Lawes looking particularly knackered. The guy needs to be rested for his own good, he just never gives up.

A couple of other points;

earlier on in the thread someone mentioned regards the comparably light autumn program? Well maybe this has been considered post Lions?

I don't think anyone has mentioned Tuilagi. I actually think he's probably done, though it obviously would be great if he were able to come back and compete for selection.

Finally, along with Brown its perhaps likely that Haskell is nearing the end of his international journey? I think that's probably the case, however I'm sure Jones will give him the preseason and autumn before he makes any decision.

A light autumn is a good idea IMO. It's worth noting that the RFU did try to get a match vs NZ, but NZ had already committed their 4th AI match to the Barbarians, and weren't keen on a tougher match than that due to the ABs' workload in a Lions year
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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by beshocked on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:40 pm

Let's not forget Kruis was facing the best 2nd rows in the world with an unfamiliar 2nd row partner for most of the game on their home turf.

Great to handicap one of your players by not partnering him with a fellow Englishman from the beginning.

Not an easy task. Still baffling that with good lock options available in the NH, Gatland has managed to balls it up.

Rugby is about combinations, NZ have a very experienced 2nd row combo, Lions started with an unfamiliar one and no surprise they got taken to the cleaners outside the lineout.

I said before the game like many others that shoehorning AWJ into the 2nd row was a mistake and so it proved.

Experience?  Laugh AWJ could have maybe worked if he was on form but he wasn't.


Launchbury might be frustated to miss out but at least he's not being mismanaged, can't be when he's not there!

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by kingelderfield on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:43 pm

I don't think we really know the reasons why the game didn't happen and though the cynic in me screams 'not enough money', I suspect it was that both sides thought it better to keep their powder dry rather than do themselves injury.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:45 pm

Settled partnerships are great but there were individual basic mistakes from the locks rather than a system thing. Getting stripped the most obvious.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:46 pm

kingelderfield wrote:I don't think we really know the reasons why the game didn't happen and though the cynic in me screams 'not enough money', I suspect it was that both sides thought it better to keep their powder dry rather than do themselves injury.

I nearly added a "not enough money" line to my post too Wink
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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by robbo277 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:56 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Its a bit of a funny set this year. Two easy games against Samoa and Argentina and they'd be expected to beat Australia as well.
Surely a chance to try out some more new faces in an extended run and rest more of the Lions and/or even leave out people like Brown and Haskell.

If its an exersize in "who would be your first choice England side right now" then Sinckler, Teo and Lawes are knocking pretty loudly on the door.

At the current level of World Rankings (we'll be the same, they may move after the Championship), the only team we can take points off this Autumn is Australia, and that's restricted to .15 points, or .23 with a thrashing.

Diverting a bit and messing about with the rankings: It's also worth noting that if we had got NZ this autumn, there would be no way of overtaking them - such is the gulf. We'd have to beat them 3-0 in a home series (or 2-0 with a thrashing), thrash them in NZ or beat them twice away. The other option would be to beat them at a World Cup on neutral territory.

With England due to tour SA in 2018 and play NZ once in the Autumn, unless NZ lose a string of games, 2nd is the best we can aim for ahead of the 2019 World Cup.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:15 pm

kingelderfield wrote:

Finally, along with Brown its perhaps likely that Haskell is nearing the end of his international journey? I think that's probably the case, however I'm sure Jones will give him the preseason and autumn before he makes any decision.

Fortunately in both cases of Brown and Haskell I think we have replacements (different styles and not hugely experienced) but replacements non the less.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:17 pm

beshocked wrote:Let's not forget Kruis was facing the best 2nd rows in the world with an unfamiliar 2nd row partner for most of the game on their home turf.


Agree, I think the key thing is Kruis and Itoje actually compliment each other so well. You see it week in week out. The Lions is a Barbarians style team that you have to fix together quickly, so it makes sense to put familiar combos in certain key positions!

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Gooseberry on Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:26 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
beshocked wrote:Let's not forget Kruis was facing the best 2nd rows in the world with an unfamiliar 2nd row partner for most of the game on their home turf.


Agree, I think the key thing is Kruis and Itoje actually compliment each other so well. You see it week in week out. The Lions is a Barbarians style team that you have to fix together quickly, so it makes sense to put familiar combos in certain key positions!


Which presumably is why it looks like Kruis will get dropped to the bench rather than AWJ Rolling Eyes

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:28 pm

Yeah it makes no sense really Gooseberry.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:35 pm

Going back to 7...

So do people think the Currys (both of them) will be in the Extended training squads but omitted from the match day / tournament squads this season?

What about Underhill?
Will Kvesic's move to Exeter revitalise him? Ive already heard they are changing his style to a more alround backrower.

Will Thacker make any impact if he moves to 7 this season?
Will Sam Evans make an impression?


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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by robbo277 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:40 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Going back to 7...

So do people think the Currys (both of them) will be in the Extended training squads but omitted from the match day / tournament squads this season?

What about Underhill?
Will Kvesic's move to Exeter revitalise him? Ive already heard they are changing his style to a more alround backrower.

Will Thacker make any impact if he moves to 7 this season?
Will Sam Evans make an impression?


If I were to guess this far out, Underhill and Currys will be in the EPS, but only Underhill will make the Autumn test squad. Kvesic could be called in if there are injuries or his form demands it, but doubt Jones has enough to put him in the EPS now.

Not too clued up on the other two to be honest.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:42 pm

I can't recall Kruis "going missing" for England, odd statement Chris. I think he's an excellent all rounder.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:00 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Will Thacker make any impact if he moves to 7 this season?
Will Sam Evans make an impression?


I cannot see Thacker ever being an international.

Do you men Will Evans? If MOC gives him chances he could push on quite nicely. Start of last season he was about 6ft and 14.5 stone - so probably too small for international rugby. While he is unlikely to get taller, put on some muscle and hone his (already impressive) jackalling and link play and he could offer an alternative option to England (though probably for 2023. I understand he has been slowly gaining muscle mass, but by design and to avoid over bulking his frame.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:12 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Will Thacker make any impact if he moves to 7 this season?
Will Sam Evans make an impression?


I cannot see Thacker ever being an international.

Do you men Will Evans? If MOC gives him chances he could push on quite nicely. Start of last season he was about 6ft and 14.5 stone - so probably too small for international rugby.  While he is unlikely to get taller, put on some muscle and hone his (already impressive) jackalling and link play and he could offer an alternative option to England (though probably for 2023. I understand he has been slowly gaining muscle mass, but by design and to avoid over bulking his frame.

Sorry yes, don't know why I keep calling him Sam.

So short and long term 7 is going to be between:
Underhill
The Currys

Outside shots...
Kvesic
Evans

Unless he goes for a 6 to do what Haskell has done...maybe Sam Jones who he was looking at before his injury?

Mark Wilson is a very good 7 aswell Wink

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by SamTheQuin on Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:46 pm

[quote="Sgt_Pooly"]I can't recall Kruis "going missing" for England, odd statement Chris. I think he's an excellent all rounder.[/quote]

Little bit pathetic there.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:52 pm

Seems to be mutterings of a disgruntled group of Lions...maybe Launchbury, Robshaw, Hartley etc are better off not being there!

They've had a nice little holiday to Argentina and now get a nice summer off to recharge and have a great preseason!

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