NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

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NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by George Carlin on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 8:35 pm

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NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS  
24 June 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
Eden Park, Auckland

Live on [Sky Sports HD]

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
ARs: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

38 Played 38
29 Won 6
3 Drawn 3
6 Lost 29
634 Points 345

B. Recent Form

9 July 2005
Eden Park, Auckland
38 – 19 to New Zealand

2 July 2005
Westpac Stadium, Wellington
48 – 18 to New Zealand

25 June 2005
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
21 – 3 to New Zealand

3 July 1993
Eden Park, Auckland
30 – 13 to New Zealand

26 June 1993
Athletic Park, Wellington
7 – 20 to British & Irish Lions

12 June 1993
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
20 – 18 to New Zealand

16 July 1983
Eden Park, Auckland
38 – 6 to New Zealand

2 July 1983
Carisbrook, Dunedin
15 – 8 to New Zealand

18 June 1983
Athletic Park (Wellington), Wellington
9 – 0 to New Zealand

4 June 1983
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
16 – 12 to New Zealand

C. TEAMS:

NEW ZEALAND

01. Joe Moody (25)
02. Codie Taylor (16)
03. Owen Franks (91)
04. Brodie Retallick (61)
05. Samuel Whitelock (85)
06. Jerome Kaino (78)
07. Sam Cane (41)
08. Kieran Read (97)

09. Aaron Smith (59)
10. Beauden Barrett (50)
11. Rieko Ioane (2)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (34)
13. Ryan Crotty (26)
14. Israel Dagg (62)
15. Ben Smith (61)

16. Nathan Harris (5)
17. Wyatt Crockett (59)
18. Charlie Faumuina (47)
19. Scott Barrett (5)
20. Ardie Savea (13)
21. TJ Perenara (30)
22. Aaron Cruden (47) / Lima Sopoaga (7)
23. Anton Lienert-Brown (10)

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS  

15. Liam Williams – Scarlets, Wales, #833
14. Anthony Watson – Bath Rugby, England, #816
13. Jonathan Davies – Scarlets, Wales, #778
12. Ben Te’o – Worcester Warriors, England, #815
11. Elliot Daly – Wasps, England, #822
10. Owen Farrell – Saracens, England, #780
09. Conor Murray – Munster, Ireland, #790

01. Mako Vunipola – Saracens, England, #787
02. Jamie George – Saracens, England, #819
03. Tadhg Furlong – Leinster, Ireland, #818
04. Alun Wyn Jones – Ospreys, Wales, #761
05. George Kruis – Saracens, England, #817
06. Peter O’Mahony (capt) – Munster, Ireland, #832
07. Sean O’Brien – Leinster, Ireland, #796
08. Taulupe Faletau – Bath Rugby, Wales, #779

16. Ken Owens – Scarlets, Wales, #829
17. Jack McGrath – Leinster, Ireland, #827
18. Kyle Sinckler – Harlequins, England, #814
19. Maro Itoje – Saracens, England, #825
20. Sam Warburton – Cardiff Blues, Wales, #800
21. Rhys Webb – Ospreys, Wales, #820
22. Johnny Sexton – Leinster, Ireland, #791
23. Leigh Halfpenny – Toulon, Wales, #775


Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 1:10 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 8:31 am

LondonTiger wrote:I doubt many people, other than the coaches, would have picked this team in it's entirety. That would have been the case no matter what and whom they selected. For everyone whinging about AWJ, Farrell, Te'o, JD2, Daly, Williams being in the side, there would be people whinging if they were not. I am worried that too much store has been set for a good performance against a weak Chiefs team, and last minute changes made - but we do not know the thought processes the coached have followed.

I suppose after the game, which we will probably lose fairly comfortably, there will be recriminations along national bias - but just for now we are not English, Welsh or Irish -

WE ARE LIONS*.





Sorry Scots, we do feel your pain - honest.
Yahoo Yahoo Go Lions!

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by BigGee on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 8:34 am

LondonTiger wrote:I doubt many people, other than the coaches, would have picked this team in it's entirety. That would have been the case no matter what and whom they selected. For everyone whinging about AWJ, Farrell, Te'o, JD2, Daly, Williams being in the side, there would be people whinging if they were not. I am worried that too much store has been set for a good performance against a weak Chiefs team, and last minute changes made - but we do not know the thought processes the coached have followed.

I suppose after the game, which we will probably lose fairly comfortably, there will be recriminations along national bias - but just for now we are not English, Welsh or Irish -

WE ARE LIONS*.





Sorry Scots, we do feel your pain - honest.

It just means that we are not emotionally involved in it. That is sad for the concept of the Lions but we have kind of got use to that.

For the record, I hope the Lions do win. If I am honest though, I will be more interested in the result of the Scotland v Fiji game than this one.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by jimbopip on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 8:45 am

BigGee wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I doubt many people, other than the coaches, would have picked this team in it's entirety. That would have been the case no matter what and whom they selected. For everyone whinging about AWJ, Farrell, Te'o, JD2, Daly, Williams being in the side, there would be people whinging if they were not. I am worried that too much store has been set for a good performance against a weak Chiefs team, and last minute changes made - but we do not know the thought processes the coached have followed.

I suppose after the game, which we will probably lose fairly comfortably, there will be recriminations along national bias - but just for now we are not English, Welsh or Irish -

WE ARE LIONS*.





Sorry Scots, we do feel your pain - honest.

It just means that we are not emotionally involved in it. That is sad for the concept of the Lions but we have kind of got use to that.

For the record, I hope the Lions do win get stuffed royally. Then maybe we'll see the back of Gatland. The funniest moment of the week was when I heard the Lions' management were looking for bugs in their hotel: they thought the AB's were trying to listen in on their tactical discussions. Tactics!!! that 10 year old boy who picked the Cheifs team knows what Gatland's tactics will be. His granny knows too. If I am honest though, I will be more interested in the result of the Scotland v Fiji game than this one.

As ever, I find myself agreeing with Gee 99.9%

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Breadvan on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 8:52 am

jimbopip wrote:
BigGee wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I doubt many people, other than the coaches, would have picked this team in it's entirety. That would have been the case no matter what and whom they selected. For everyone whinging about AWJ, Farrell, Te'o, JD2, Daly, Williams being in the side, there would be people whinging if they were not. I am worried that too much store has been set for a good performance against a weak Chiefs team, and last minute changes made - but we do not know the thought processes the coached have followed.

I suppose after the game, which we will probably lose fairly comfortably, there will be recriminations along national bias - but just for now we are not English, Welsh or Irish -

WE ARE LIONS*.





Sorry Scots, we do feel your pain - honest.

It just means that we are not emotionally involved in it. That is sad for the concept of the Lions but we have kind of got use to that.

For the record, I hope the Lions do win get stuffed royally. Then maybe we'll see the back of Gatland. The funniest moment of the week was when I heard the Lions' management were looking for bugs in their hotel: they thought the AB's were trying to listen in on their tactical discussions. Tactics!!! that 10 year old boy who picked the Cheifs team knows what Gatland's tactics will be. His granny knows too. If I am honest though, I will be more interested in the result of the Scotland v Fiji game than this one.

As ever, I find myself agreeing with Gee 99.9%
Laugh Laugh Laugh
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by cascough on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 8:58 am

Really disappointing to see that even at this stage in the tour the Lions is still parochial for some people.

I would genuinely be interested to know why/how people think Seymour or Laidlaw have played better than their competition.

As a wider point, someone said "we have 0 representation". Assuming you're British or Irish, there are 23 players representing you in that squad.

It looks like an exciting squad to me, and form looks to have been rewarded. There's a couple of players it could be argued have struggled for form (AWJ, for example), but they are vastly experienced. Picking this team (or any team) is surely always about balancing form and experience. This looks to be a better blend of that than most expected, with a lot of people assuming halfpenny, North etc were shoe ins. Can't we all get excited about that?

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:03 am

cascough wrote:Really disappointing to see that even at this stage in the tour the Lions is still parochial for some people.

I would genuinely be interested to know why/how people think Seymour or Laidlaw have played better than their competition.

As a wider point, someone said "we have 0 representation". Assuming you're British or Irish, there are 23 players representing you in that squad.

It looks like an exciting squad to me, and form looks to have been rewarded. There's a couple of players it could be argued have struggled for form (AWJ, for example), but they are vastly experienced. Picking this team (or any team) is surely always about balancing form and experience. This looks to be a better blend of that than most expected, with a lot of people assuming halfpenny, North etc were shoe ins. Can't we all get excited about that?

I agree. I've moaned that the Welsh have had all the 50/50 decisions but this team doesn't look like that at all. It's pretty much based on tour performance.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by R!skysports on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:08 am

cascough wrote:Really disappointing to see that even at this stage in the tour the Lions is still parochial for some people.

I would genuinely be interested to know why/how people think Seymour or Laidlaw have played better than their competition.

As a wider point, someone said "we have 0 representation". Assuming you're British or Irish, there are 23 players representing you in that squad.

It looks like an exciting squad to me, and form looks to have been rewarded. There's a couple of players it could be argued have struggled for form (AWJ, for example), but they are vastly experienced. Picking this team (or any team) is surely always about balancing form and experience. This looks to be a better blend of that than most expected, with a lot of people assuming halfpenny, North etc were shoe ins. Can't we all get excited about that?

They don't no Scots think they have played well enough to be certain of tests. Seymour might have been close, but even he has not done enough to be certain.

It comes down to the complete snub from the start.

The 5th best team in the world, who beat both Ireland and Wales in the 6 nations before the selection, who have been in form for 12 months and continued this form by beating Australia still only manged 2 selections (3 after Youngs left), then had one of the form 10 pulled from our tour not to be used at all has meant there is a lot of frustration on the whole tour that is tough to completely get over.

I support the lions and will cheer them on at the weekend, but to say we are as engaged as other nations who have their household names involved is going to be tough.


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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by George Carlin on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:13 am

I am very disappointed not to see Phil Vickery and Gavin Henson in that matchday 23.
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:13 am

It's a pretty decent side all in. If any team's going to stop the ABs' home winning streak short of 50 matches* this is it


* it's currently 46 tests since SA won in Hamilton in September 2009. The Eden Park streak stands at 38 wins since France won there in 1994
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by emack2 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:19 am

It seems to me a case of all smoke and mirrors,assumptions of the way
each side will play.The weather may have some influence,Refs policeing
of the laws.
Line speed is just another name for offside,hopefully the Ref will not
favour either side.
Given that the areas of maul/scrum/lineout/breakdown where either side
can be pinged for multiple offences it is a lottery.
AS an NZ fan expect a 3=0 series win but expect it to be close thumbsup

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Barney McGrew did it on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:29 am

OMG AWJ WTF LOL
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:32 am

What do our NZ posters think about the crotty SBW partnership? Thought LB would get the nod.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by George Carlin on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:36 am

emack2 wrote:It seems to me a case of all smoke and mirrors,assumptions of the way
each side will play.The weather may have some influence,Refs policeing
of the laws.
Line speed is just another name for offside,hopefully the Ref will not
favour either side.
Given that the areas of maul/scrum/lineout/breakdown where either side
can be pinged for multiple offences it is a lottery.
AS an NZ fan expect a 3=0 series win but expect it to be close thumbsup
Come on Alan - predict a score, big feller. Hug
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:37 am

carpet baboon wrote:What do our NZ posters think about the crotty SBW partnership? Thought LB would get the nod.

4 weeks ago I'd have picked Crotty/ALB as my pairing, but SBW's found form at the right time. Crotty's better on defence than ALB which makes him the better starter I guess - he's also someone who makes those around him play better (the Crusaders missed him as much as they did Read vs the Lions IMO)
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by BamBam on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:38 am

Its going to be great having Itoje as an impact player off the bench

Someone should have pointed out it'd be even better to have impact starting the game (Itoje) and coming off it (Lawes/Henderson) rather than rolling out an old mare who should have been put out to pasture (but PASHUN and EKSHPERIENSH)

I reckon Launchbury would be more effective at lock than Jones if he landed in NZ 1 hour before kickoff

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Griff on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:39 am

BamBam wrote:Its going to be great having Itoje as an impact player off the bench

Someone should have pointed out it'd be even better to have impact starting the game (Itoje) and coming off it (Lawes/Henderson) rather than rolling out an old mare who should have been put out to pasture (but PASHUN and EKSHPERIENSH)

I reckon Launchbury would be more effective at lock than Jones if he landed in NZ 1 hour before kickoff


Is Sean Connery playing?!

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:40 am

Griff wrote:
BamBam wrote:Its going to be great having Itoje as an impact player off the bench

Someone should have pointed out it'd be even better to have impact starting the game (Itoje) and coming off it (Lawes/Henderson) rather than rolling out an old mare who should have been put out to pasture (but PASHUN and EKSHPERIENSH)

I reckon Launchbury would be more effective at lock than Jones if he landed in NZ 1 hour before kickoff


Is Sean Connery playing?!

No chance, hes scottish

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:41 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:What do our NZ posters think about the crotty SBW partnership? Thought LB would get the nod.

4 weeks ago I'd have picked Crotty/ALB as my pairing, but SBW's found form at the right time. Crotty's better on defence than ALB which makes him the better starter I guess - he's also someone who makes those around him play better (the Crusaders missed him as much as they did Read vs the Lions IMO)

Is SBW better at 12 or 13? Or does it matter

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:47 am

George Carlin wrote:
emack2 wrote:It seems to me a case of all smoke and mirrors,assumptions of the way
each side will play.The weather may have some influence,Refs policeing
of the laws.
Line speed is just another name for offside,hopefully the Ref will not
favour either side.
Given that the areas of maul/scrum/lineout/breakdown where either side
can be pinged for multiple offences it is a lottery.
AS an NZ fan expect a 3=0 series win but expect it to be close thumbsup
Come on Alan - predict a score, big feller. Hug

Best available odds on a Lions' series win is still 11/2, with NZ paying 1/5. NZ 3-0 is paying 4/6. Lions 3-0 is available for between 33/1 & 50/1 ...

4/1 on the Lions winning Saturday, & most of the even-priced handicaps are NZ-10 or -11
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 9:50 am

carpet baboon wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:What do our NZ posters think about the crotty SBW partnership? Thought LB would get the nod.

4 weeks ago I'd have picked Crotty/ALB as my pairing, but SBW's found form at the right time. Crotty's better on defence than ALB which makes him the better starter I guess - he's also someone who makes those around him play better (the Crusaders missed him as much as they did Read vs the Lions IMO)

Is SBW better at 12 or 13? Or does it matter

Definitely 12 IMO. Though he and Nonu alternated 12/13 in the 2nd half of the RWC final pretty well. Crotty & ALB play both handily enough - I'd expect Crotty to play 50 minutes on Sat given he's had a couple of weeks out
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by emack2 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 10:01 am

Crotty is a player in the mould of Conrad Smith,although program has
him at 13,could easily revert to 12.On for about 40 minutes ALB on as
utility,wing covered by him[started there]or Ben Smith.
Sam Barrett covers Lock and 6,Ardie Savea probably Read maybe Hansen
is expecting Lions to run not strangle or a mix of both.
Conservative selections I`m sure the "BUS"will feature and Taylor will
continue his Coles impression.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 10:20 am

Scottrf wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I doubt many people, other than the coaches, would have picked this team in it's entirety. That would have been the case no matter what and whom they selected. For everyone whinging about AWJ, Farrell, Te'o, JD2, Daly, Williams being in the side, there would be people whinging if they were not. I am worried that too much store has been set for a good performance against a weak Chiefs team, and last minute changes made - but we do not know the thought processes the coached have followed.

I suppose after the game, which we will probably lose fairly comfortably, there will be recriminations along national bias - but just for now we are not English, Welsh or Irish -

WE ARE LIONS*.






Sorry Scots, we do feel your pain - honest.
Yahoo Yahoo  Go Lions!

I wear my heart on my sleeve on these forums. I always have and I hope I always do.

I'm monumentally jealous of all of you guys.

Kiwis, Irish, English and Welsh posters. It must be a damn exciting time for you seeing all of your household names lined up out there. The once every 4 Lions series is an exciting time. I'm jealous that I feel absolutely severed from the tour now. I'll be watching, and hoping the Lions do well, but I'm not all that bothered about it now, which is frankly gutting. Sad
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 10:33 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I doubt many people, other than the coaches, would have picked this team in it's entirety. That would have been the case no matter what and whom they selected. For everyone whinging about AWJ, Farrell, Te'o, JD2, Daly, Williams being in the side, there would be people whinging if they were not. I am worried that too much store has been set for a good performance against a weak Chiefs team, and last minute changes made - but we do not know the thought processes the coached have followed.

I suppose after the game, which we will probably lose fairly comfortably, there will be recriminations along national bias - but just for now we are not English, Welsh or Irish -

WE ARE LIONS*.






Sorry Scots, we do feel your pain - honest.
Yahoo Yahoo  Go Lions!


Are SBW and Farrell not household names in Scotchland? How parachial and backwards are you people? I know its an isolated part of Great Britain (and Ireland) but you really should start paying attention to players who hail from other parts of the country.

I wear my heart on my sleeve on these forums. I always have and I hope I always do.

I'm monumentally jealous of all of you guys.

Kiwis, Irish, English and Welsh posters. It must be a damn exciting time for you seeing all of your household names lined up out there. The once every 4 Lions series is an exciting time. I'm jealous that I feel absolutely severed from the tour now. I'll be watching, and hoping the Lions do well, but I'm not all that bothered about it now, which is frankly gutting. Sad

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 10:37 am

Household names? 78% of Kiwis polled were unable to name a single Lion (though it would be similar in UK)

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Kingshu on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 10:39 am

I can certainly understand Scottish fans frustration the side ranked 5th in the world has zero players in and the side ranked 7th has 8 players.

Personally I think that if Scotland had been playing at the level they have for another year then more players would have forced there way in. 2015 wasn't a good year, 2016 was the transition year and its all coming together in 2017, I think if the Lions tour was next year then we would see more Scots its just come to soon for them. When a team is in transition they are still viewed as being the poor team of 2015 but the players are playing as a team, over time the players will get the recognition that they are good players as well.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 10:40 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

I wear my heart on my sleeve on these forums. I always have and I hope I always do.

I'm monumentally jealous of all of you guys.

Kiwis, Irish, English and Welsh posters. It must be a damn exciting time for you seeing all of your household names lined up out there. The once every 4 Lions series is an exciting time. I'm jealous that I feel absolutely severed from the tour now. I'll be watching, and hoping the Lions do well, but I'm not all that bothered about it now, which is frankly gutting. Sad

Yeah I feel your pain. Dont think it is fair. Even when in the 80s and 90s Ireland were dreadful we nearly always had at least one player in the test sides. Scotland are good now too.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by George Carlin on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:00 am

Kingshu wrote:I can certainly understand Scottish fans frustration the side ranked 5th in the world has zero players in and the side ranked 7th has 8 players.

Personally I think that if Scotland had been playing at the level they have for another year then more players would have forced there way in. 2015 wasn't a good year, 2016 was the transition year and its all coming together in 2017, I think if the Lions tour was next year then we would see more Scots its just come to soon for them. When a team is in transition they are still viewed as being the poor team of 2015 but the players are playing as a team, over time the players will get the recognition that they are good players as well.
Thanks. I think that the main gist of Scotland fans' dissatisfaction is the way that the 6N results were interpreted.

Wales getting well beaten by Scotland was regarded as a blip or an abherration of some kind and almost completely overlooked when selection time came. On the contrary, Scotland's single bad game against England was not regarded as a blip - in fact, it was taken to be a comment about the entire team's worth and potential throughout the entire tournament.

IRB rankings don't lie. However, apparently you can see whatever you want to see in any international result during the 6 Nations.
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:05 am

George Carlin wrote:Thanks. I think that the main gist of Scotland fans' dissatisfaction is the way that the 6N results were interpreted.

Wales getting well beaten by Scotland was regarded as a blip or an abherration of some kind and almost completely overlooked when selection time came. On the contrary, Scotland's single bad game against England was not regarded as a blip - in fact, it was taken to be a comment about the entire team's worth and potential throughout the entire tournament.

IRB rankings don't lie. However, apparently you can see whatever you want to see in any international result during the 6 Nations.
Agree with most of your post except the rankings. They are a good guide but fixtures have a lot to do with them. The 6 Nations showed that the teams were fairly evenly matched and teams tended to win their home games. If Wales had played Scotland at home I don't think it's a huge stretch to put them as favourites (the rankings would have 'predicted' this). That would have made them higher ranked than Scotland. I do agree in general that when teams get beaten by Scotland it's seen as the other team not turning up but that will change over time, and I haven't really seen that with the Australia result.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:08 am

You are right in a way Scott but history has shown that Wales wouldn't have defeated Australia at home never mind away which the Scots have just achieved. Small point perhaps.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:10 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:You are right in a way Scott but history has shown that Wales wouldn't have defeated Australia at home never mind away which the Scots have just achieved. Small point perhaps.
Yeah I'm not saying that Scotland aren't better than Wales. Simply that the rankings fluctuate as much on fixtures as relative quality.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by George Carlin on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:39 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:You are right in a way Scott but history has shown that Wales wouldn't have defeated Australia at home never mind away which the Scots have just achieved. Small point perhaps.
Twice in a row. Very Happy
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:40 am

George Carlin wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:You are right in a way Scott but history has shown that Wales wouldn't have defeated Australia at home never mind away which the Scots have just achieved. Small point perhaps.
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it was raining the first time remember - doesn't count OK

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Griff on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:42 am

I think the thing that annoy some Welsh posters is that Scotland fans have been bleating on about beating Wales at home in the 6N and pointing to it being a success story of the 6N campaign. 'We smashed Wales at home', 'we should have more players on tour because we were 5th on the world and you were 7th', 'Watson should have toured because he got the better of your back rowers in that game', etc. All valid arguments. But in the next breath a lot of Scottish posters say that Wales' players are rubbish and shouldn't be on tour. So, either you perceive beating Wales as some sort of achievement and therefore consider Wales and the players to be good (why else would it be held up as such an achievement, right?!), OR you've only beaten a sh*t team at home so therefore it isn't really much of an achievement and doesn't point to Scotland's world dominance. You can't have it both ways - either beating Wales was a success or you've just beaten a really crap team with crap players and finished one place ahead of a crap team in the tournament!

But this was all before you beat Aus, so the point is now moot as you're obviously very good.

Hug

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:49 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:You are right in a way Scott but history has shown that Wales wouldn't have defeated Australia at home never mind away which the Scots have just achieved. Small point perhaps.
Twice in a row. Very Happy

it was raining the first time remember - doesn't count OK

It was actually quite a good Aussie team last time though.

Morahan, Tomane, A. Faingaa, Harris, Ioane, Barnes, Genia, Slipper, Moore, Palmer, Timani, Sharpe, Dennis, Pocock, Higginbotham

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by EWT Spoons on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:56 am

Griff wrote:I think the thing that annoy some Welsh posters is that Scotland fans have been bleating on about beating Wales at home in the 6N and pointing to it being a success story of the 6N campaign.  'We smashed Wales at home', 'we should have more players on tour because we were 5th on the world and you were 7th', 'Watson should have toured because he got the better of your back rowers in that game', etc.  All valid arguments. But in the next breath a lot of Scottish posters say that Wales' players are rubbish and shouldn't be on tour.  So, either you perceive beating Wales as some sort of achievement and therefore consider Wales and the players to be good (why else would it be held up as such an achievement, right?!), OR you've only beaten a sh*t team at home so therefore it isn't really much of an achievement and doesn't point to Scotland's world dominance.  You can't have it both ways - either beating Wales was a success or you've just beaten a really crap team with crap players and finished one place ahead of a crap team in the tournament!

But this was all before you beat Aus, so the point is now moot as you're obviously very good.

Hug

I don’t think the two things are mutually exclusive, I think the biggest issue is that a (currently) poor Welsh team, have more players touring than an arguably better Scottish team.  The reference for suggesting Scotland are better is because of the 6 nations result.

With that said, I'm not overly upset by the representation, Wales have a number of good/very good players and a case could have been made for any of them going along with the lions.  Having the former (is Gatland going back after the lions?) head coach of Wales and the current head coach, probably ensured they got a better chance than us.

The midweek call ups were a bit galling to be honest even if they are only there to sit on the bench, they are still classed as Lions players with their own unique number, but I don't know the circumstances around why they were chosen.  There might be some truth in Scottish players turning it down, but it would be a strange move considering the wedge of cash they would get for holding a few tackle bags for a week or two.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by robbo277 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:01 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:
Griff wrote:I think the thing that annoy some Welsh posters is that Scotland fans have been bleating on about beating Wales at home in the 6N and pointing to it being a success story of the 6N campaign.  'We smashed Wales at home', 'we should have more players on tour because we were 5th on the world and you were 7th', 'Watson should have toured because he got the better of your back rowers in that game', etc.  All valid arguments. But in the next breath a lot of Scottish posters say that Wales' players are rubbish and shouldn't be on tour.  So, either you perceive beating Wales as some sort of achievement and therefore consider Wales and the players to be good (why else would it be held up as such an achievement, right?!), OR you've only beaten a sh*t team at home so therefore it isn't really much of an achievement and doesn't point to Scotland's world dominance.  You can't have it both ways - either beating Wales was a success or you've just beaten a really crap team with crap players and finished one place ahead of a crap team in the tournament!

But this was all before you beat Aus, so the point is now moot as you're obviously very good.

Hug

I don’t think the two things are mutually exclusive, I think the biggest issue is that a (currently) poor Welsh team, have more players touring than an arguably better Scottish team.  The reference for suggesting Scotland are better is because of the 6 nations result.

With that said, I'm not overly upset by the representation, Wales have a number of good/very good players and a case could have been made for any of them going along with the lions.  Having the former (is Gatland going back after the lions?) head coach of Wales and the current head coach, probably ensured they got a better chance than us.

The midweek call ups were a bit galling to be honest even if they are only there to sit on the bench, they are still classed as Lions players with their own unique number, but I don't know the circumstances around why they were chosen.  There might be some truth in Scottish players turning it down, but it would be a strange move considering the wedge of cash they would get for holding a few tackle bags for a week or two.

I agree with the sentiment, but I thought they only get a number when they get on the field? So currently Dell is a Lion, but the other 5 aren't?

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:02 pm

Yeah they're not a Lion until they get on the pitch.

So looks like Dell will be the only one then! Run

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by EWT Spoons on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:03 pm

I stand corrected, sorry I thought they were allocated a unique number on being called up.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by robbo277 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:07 pm

I still think Gatland was trying to shield either them or himself from the backlash a little. I'd be fairly confident in predicting that any selected on the bench next week will get a quick run.

After all, on a Tuesday between two test matches, who's going to be talking about Wales' 4th choice lock getting 15 minutes against the Hurricanes?

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by cascough on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:16 pm

Reading these comments I continue to be mystified as to how the Lions is about any one country for some people.

Also this rankings debate, It may tell you how a group of players perform as a team, but its less clear when you're talking about individuals.

If you look at the Welsh involvement for Saturdays game, how many Scottish players can genuinely feel aggrieved?

There are 8 welshmen involved on Saturday. Which Scots do we think should be there instead?

1) Liam Williams - Hogg was selected to tour, unfortunate injury. No injustice there.

2) Leigh Halfpenny - as above.

3) Johnathan Davies - Huw Jones was injured and not in contention. No injustice there.

4) AWJ - the most experienced lock we have. Captained the Lions, and was considered for the captaincy this time around. Question marks over his form, but I can't for the life of me see how AWJ getting picked is an injustice to Scotland.

5) Faletau - One of the best in the world. And showing it. - No injustice there.

6) Webb - Laidlaw has been selected to tour, and has never looked good enough. No injustice there.

7) Warburton - Tour captain, which many acknowledged as the right pick. A huge part of the leadership group. People may have wanted Watson to tour, but He would have still been an outside bet for a test spot in many peoples eyes.

8) Owens - One of the only welshman to emerge with credit from the 6N, and has been very good on tour. If it were a straight shootout between Brown and Owens for tour selection, I think the consensus would be that Owens was the better player.

I know people are throwing out blanket statements about Scotland's lack of involvement, but I just can't see where they think it should be different. There are some marginal calls perhaps, but thats just what they are. Marginal. Why the furore?

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Kingshu on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:25 pm

cascough wrote:Reading these comments I continue to be mystified as to how the Lions is about any one country for some people.

Also this rankings debate, It may tell you how a group of players perform as a team, but its less clear when you're talking about individuals.

If you look at the Welsh involvement for Saturdays game, how many Scottish players can genuinely feel aggrieved?

There are 8 welshmen involved on Saturday. Which Scots do we think should be there instead?

1) Liam Williams - Hogg was selected to tour, unfortunate injury. No injustice there.

2) Leigh Halfpenny - as above.

3) Johnathan Davies - Huw Jones was injured and not in contention. No injustice there.

4) AWJ - the most experienced lock we have. Captained the Lions, and was considered for the captaincy this time around. Question marks over his form, but I can't for the life of me see how AWJ getting picked is an injustice to Scotland.

5) Faletau - One of the best in the world. And showing it. - No injustice there.

6) Webb - Laidlaw has been selected to tour, and has never looked good enough. No injustice there.

7) Warburton - Tour captain, which many acknowledged as the right pick. A huge part of the leadership group. People may have wanted Watson to tour, but He would have still been an outside bet for a test spot in many peoples eyes.

8) Owens - One of the only welshman to emerge with credit from the 6N, and has been very good on tour. If it were a straight shootout between Brown and Owens for tour selection, I think the consensus would be that Owens was the better player.

I know people are throwing out blanket statements about Scotland's lack of involvement, but I just can't see where they think it should be different. There are some marginal calls perhaps, but thats just what they are. Marginal. Why the furore?

I think we can mostly agree, but I feel if the Scottish players keep picking up the wins they have been we will rate the players higher. its just a year to soon for them.

I think Gtland for all the criticism has gone well, in promoting players from the midweek team to the test team, its bound to keep the squad together knowing playing mid-week doesn't end your test hopes.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:39 pm

robbo277 wrote:I still think Gatland was trying to shield either them or himself from the backlash a little. I'd be fairly confident in predicting that any selected on the bench next week will get a quick run.

After all, on a Tuesday between two test matches, who's going to be talking about Wales' 4th choice lock getting 15 minutes against the Hurricanes?
Us.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by George Carlin on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:41 pm

cascough wrote:Reading these comments I continue to be mystified as to how the Lions is about any one country for some people.

Also this rankings debate, It may tell you how a group of players perform as a team, but its less clear when you're talking about individuals.

If you look at the Welsh involvement for Saturdays game, how many Scottish players can genuinely feel aggrieved?

There are 8 welshmen involved on Saturday. Which Scots do we think should be there instead?

1) Liam Williams - Hogg was selected to tour, unfortunate injury. No injustice there.

2) Leigh Halfpenny - as above.

3) Johnathan Davies - Huw Jones was injured and not in contention. No injustice there.

4) AWJ - the most experienced lock we have. Captained the Lions, and was considered for the captaincy this time around. Question marks over his form, but I can't for the life of me see how AWJ getting picked is an injustice to Scotland.

5) Faletau - One of the best in the world. And showing it. - No injustice there.

6) Webb - Laidlaw has been selected to tour, and has never looked good enough. No injustice there.

7) Warburton - Tour captain, which many acknowledged as the right pick. A huge part of the leadership group. People may have wanted Watson to tour, but He would have still been an outside bet for a test spot in many peoples eyes.

8) Owens - One of the only welshman to emerge with credit from the 6N, and has been very good on tour. If it were a straight shootout between Brown and Owens for tour selection, I think the consensus would be that Owens was the better player.

I know people are throwing out blanket statements about Scotland's lack of involvement, but I just can't see where they think it should be different. There are some marginal calls perhaps, but thats just what they are. Marginal. Why the furore?
The prejudice happened during selection - it doesn't mean a great deal to list the Welsh players who are already touring.
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:49 pm

George Carlin wrote:
cascough wrote:Reading these comments I continue to be mystified as to how the Lions is about any one country for some people.

Also this rankings debate, It may tell you how a group of players perform as a team, but its less clear when you're talking about individuals.

If you look at the Welsh involvement for Saturdays game, how many Scottish players can genuinely feel aggrieved?

There are 8 welshmen involved on Saturday. Which Scots do we think should be there instead?

1) Liam Williams - Hogg was selected to tour, unfortunate injury. No injustice there.

2) Leigh Halfpenny - as above.

3) Johnathan Davies - Huw Jones was injured and not in contention. No injustice there.

4) AWJ - the most experienced lock we have. Captained the Lions, and was considered for the captaincy this time around. Question marks over his form, but I can't for the life of me see how AWJ getting picked is an injustice to Scotland.

5) Faletau - One of the best in the world. And showing it. - No injustice there.

6) Webb - Laidlaw has been selected to tour, and has never looked good enough. No injustice there.

7) Warburton - Tour captain, which many acknowledged as the right pick. A huge part of the leadership group. People may have wanted Watson to tour, but He would have still been an outside bet for a test spot in many peoples eyes.

8) Owens - One of the only welshman to emerge with credit from the 6N, and has been very good on tour. If it were a straight shootout between Brown and Owens for tour selection, I think the consensus would be that Owens was the better player.

I know people are throwing out blanket statements about Scotland's lack of involvement, but I just can't see where they think it should be different. There are some marginal calls perhaps, but thats just what they are. Marginal. Why the furore?
The prejudice happened during selection - it doesn't mean a great deal to list the Welsh players who are already touring.

Warburton injured and selected as captain before the tour left. That chicken has come home to roost since he has been "bravely" dropped by Gatland and POM is now the captain. Some are saying "Bravely" dropped, I say stupidly selected in the first place. Hamish Watson or even John Barclay who is playing the best rugby of his life as captain of club and country should have been taken. Instead Gatland gambled on him finding fitness and form on tour. It hasn't worked and now Gatland has been commended for being brave instead of slammed for being stupid.

AWJ is another, stupidly selected by being injured at the time of his selection and now in the test side whilst stronger performers like Lawes or Henderson don't get a look in. Lets not even open the can of worms about leaving Gray or Launchbury behind.

JD2 has played himself into contention by by being excellent for the Scarlets although he has struggled to bring that style of play on tour as has Liam Williams. Coaching issue??????? (rhetorical question BTW)

No real complaints about Webb, Halfpenny, Moriarty, Falatau or Owens TBH.
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:52 pm

I think our English, Welsh and Irish friends need to try and put themselves in our shoes - it is easy to say 'you Scots aren't buying into the Lions concept, it is just 23 players now' when all you have known is players you regularly support from your own country being key members of Lions test series. We haven't had that and look like we won't get that again this tour.

We have had no involvement of note with a Test series since 1997. Fair enough we have hardly had distinguished results as a country in the professional era, but that is a lot of Lions tours where we are expected to tow the party line even though we feel little personal tie to the players and the team. Combine that with our opinion of numerous selection injustices over the years (and the Ryan Grant incident) and it gets very wearing.

So before you chastise us for being disappointed and feeling like outsiders on a Lions tour try considering what it is like to have been feeling that way for 20 years OK

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:55 pm

cascough wrote:I know people are throwing out blanket statements about Scotland's lack of involvement, but I just can't see where they think it should be different. There are some marginal calls perhaps, but thats just what they are. Marginal. Why the furore?

While this has been done to death in the past, I guess internet forums would be very quiet places if we did not rehash things forever.

The problem really comes down to what the Lions means in this day and age, and how people choose to identify with it. Following sports teams can be quite a tribal thing often with fierce rivalries. These rivalries can be seen every spring when 6Ns comes around. Then every four years we are asked to get behind the concept of the British and Irish Lions and put all those rivalries aside. If you feel a connection to the team that can happen, but such a connection is an emotional and personal one and cannot (nor should not) be dictated by anyone else.

Usually supporting a national side will be linked to your own national identity. The Lions is a whole different thing though. If you identify as British then it may be a lot easier to feel a connection with the team than if you identify as English,Scottish or Welsh (ignoring the "I" part as that is a whole new set of issues). It is very easy for Welsh or English fans to denigrate and patronise Scottish fans as with the representation we have in the touring party it is easy to feel that it represents us. As we have seen, there will still be bickering about whether the right players are in the Test team, but overall we can feel that the tour is representative of us.

If the Lions are meant to represent British and Irish rugby, then ideally so should the squad. I am not talking about equal contributions, but that the fans of any specific country need to feel that their players are getting a fair crack of the whip, and not losing out on all the 50/50 calls.

If the Lions is about winning test matches - well the concept is probably doomed as the pragmatic way to try and achieve that would alienate many and thus put at risk what seems to be the real current purpose of the Lions - to serve as a cash cow.

I fully understand why Scottish fans can feel alienated as despite being a fan of the Lions, I am sure I would struggle to maintain my interest if English representation in the entire initial touring party amounted to two parts of diddly squat. I certainly know that my interest in the England team waned in the mid 80s when the selectors too often ignored whole swathes of the country, and would wane again if Eddie Jones brought in too many time-servers or gotta-grannies.


Thus in short, if a representative group, fails to be representative it is to be expected that people will be alienated.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:58 pm

LondonTiger writes the best posts. Shame about his choice of team.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 1:01 pm

Excellent post LT, very well put clap

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by BigGee on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 1:06 pm

cascough wrote:

I know people are throwing out blanket statements about Scotland's lack of involvement, but I just can't see where they think it should be different. There are some marginal calls perhaps, but thats just what they are. Marginal. Why the furore?

It can't be entirely a co-incidence that every marginal call involving a Scottish player at the time of selection went against them. That is why most Scottish fans feel cynical and aggrieved at the process. It was widely commented on at the time by many pundits and not just the Scots.

No-one every expected many Scottish players to be on the tour, as already stated, for a few of them, this tour may have come a year or so to soon. There were a few though, who were certainly up to it and would not have disgraced the jersey in any way. They did not get their chance though. Calling Finn Russell up, who by any standards, was very deserving of being there and then leaving him on the bench for 80 mins just about sums it all up.

It is not that we don't want to support the Lions. Gatland is just making it very very difficult for us to do so!

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by cascough on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 1:12 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
cascough wrote:I know people are throwing out blanket statements about Scotland's lack of involvement, but I just can't see where they think it should be different. There are some marginal calls perhaps, but thats just what they are. Marginal. Why the furore?

While this has been done to death in the past, I guess internet forums would be very quiet places if we did not rehash things forever.

The problem really comes down to what the Lions means in this day and age, and how people choose to identify with it. Following sports teams can be quite a tribal thing often with fierce rivalries. These rivalries can be seen every spring when 6Ns comes around. Then every four years we are asked to get behind the concept of the British and Irish Lions and put all those rivalries aside. If you feel a connection to the team that can happen, but such a connection is an emotional and personal one and cannot (nor should not) be dictated by anyone else.

Usually supporting a national side will be linked to your own national identity. The Lions is a whole different thing though. If you identify as British then it may be a lot easier to feel a connection with the team than if you identify as English,Scottish or Welsh (ignoring the "I" part as that is a whole new set of issues). It is very easy for Welsh or English fans to denigrate and patronise Scottish fans as with the representation we have in the touring party it is easy to feel that it represents us. As we have seen, there will still be bickering about whether the right players are in the Test team, but overall we can feel that the tour is representative of us.

If the Lions are meant to represent British and Irish rugby, then ideally so should the squad. I am not talking about equal contributions, but that the fans of any specific country need to feel that their players are getting a fair crack of the whip, and not losing out on all the 50/50 calls.  

If the Lions is about winning test matches - well the concept is probably doomed as the pragmatic way to try and achieve that would alienate many and thus put at risk what seems to be the real current purpose of the Lions - to serve as a cash cow.

I fully understand why Scottish fans can feel alienated as despite being a fan of the Lions, I am sure I would struggle to maintain my interest if English representation in the entire initial touring party amounted to two parts of diddly squat. I certainly know that my interest in the England team waned in the mid 80s when the selectors too often ignored whole swathes of the country, and would wane again if Eddie Jones brought in too many time-servers or gotta-grannies.


Thus in short, if a representative group, fails to be representative it is to be expected that people will be alienated.

I fundamentally disagree.

The England team does not have any players in it from the team I support but it doesn't pose me any problems supporting it. It represents me because I'm English. It's not, and never will be an extension of my club team.

Likewise the Lions represents me because I am British. It is not an extension of England for me.

Even if there were no English players selected, and even if I felt those English players ignored were better than those that had been selected, I would still support the Lions. I would feel contempt for the coach (because I think he is wrong) but that contempt doesn't extend to the guys that are selected. They are still going out there trying to do their best for Great Britain and Ireland, so they still represent me.

Where I really struggle to understand it, is lets say No England players were selected, and lets say that they were all marginal calls, what grounds would I have to even feel contempt for the coach? He's done what he thinks his best, and the players selected are going to do their best for Britain and Ireland.

At the end of the day, it appears people support for the Lions is conditional. As long as their favourite players get picked, then they class themselves as Lions supporters. To them the Lions is merely an extension of their national teams rather than a holistic representation of Great Britain and Ireland. I won't just be cheering the English guys on on Saturday, I'll be cheering them all on (even the ones I don't like, same as I do for the England players I don't like when England are playing). Why would I stop cheering the rest on if no English players were picked?

cascough

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

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