NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

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NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by George Carlin on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 8:35 pm

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NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS  
24 June 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
Eden Park, Auckland

Live on [Sky Sports HD]

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
ARs: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

38 Played 38
29 Won 6
3 Drawn 3
6 Lost 29
634 Points 345

B. Recent Form

9 July 2005
Eden Park, Auckland
38 – 19 to New Zealand

2 July 2005
Westpac Stadium, Wellington
48 – 18 to New Zealand

25 June 2005
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
21 – 3 to New Zealand

3 July 1993
Eden Park, Auckland
30 – 13 to New Zealand

26 June 1993
Athletic Park, Wellington
7 – 20 to British & Irish Lions

12 June 1993
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
20 – 18 to New Zealand

16 July 1983
Eden Park, Auckland
38 – 6 to New Zealand

2 July 1983
Carisbrook, Dunedin
15 – 8 to New Zealand

18 June 1983
Athletic Park (Wellington), Wellington
9 – 0 to New Zealand

4 June 1983
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
16 – 12 to New Zealand

C. TEAMS:

NEW ZEALAND

01. Joe Moody (25)
02. Codie Taylor (16)
03. Owen Franks (91)
04. Brodie Retallick (61)
05. Samuel Whitelock (85)
06. Jerome Kaino (78)
07. Sam Cane (41)
08. Kieran Read (97)

09. Aaron Smith (59)
10. Beauden Barrett (50)
11. Rieko Ioane (2)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (34)
13. Ryan Crotty (26)
14. Israel Dagg (62)
15. Ben Smith (61)

16. Nathan Harris (5)
17. Wyatt Crockett (59)
18. Charlie Faumuina (47)
19. Scott Barrett (5)
20. Ardie Savea (13)
21. TJ Perenara (30)
22. Aaron Cruden (47) / Lima Sopoaga (7)
23. Anton Lienert-Brown (10)

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS  

15. Liam Williams – Scarlets, Wales, #833
14. Anthony Watson – Bath Rugby, England, #816
13. Jonathan Davies – Scarlets, Wales, #778
12. Ben Te’o – Worcester Warriors, England, #815
11. Elliot Daly – Wasps, England, #822
10. Owen Farrell – Saracens, England, #780
09. Conor Murray – Munster, Ireland, #790

01. Mako Vunipola – Saracens, England, #787
02. Jamie George – Saracens, England, #819
03. Tadhg Furlong – Leinster, Ireland, #818
04. Alun Wyn Jones – Ospreys, Wales, #761
05. George Kruis – Saracens, England, #817
06. Peter O’Mahony (capt) – Munster, Ireland, #832
07. Sean O’Brien – Leinster, Ireland, #796
08. Taulupe Faletau – Bath Rugby, Wales, #779

16. Ken Owens – Scarlets, Wales, #829
17. Jack McGrath – Leinster, Ireland, #827
18. Kyle Sinckler – Harlequins, England, #814
19. Maro Itoje – Saracens, England, #825
20. Sam Warburton – Cardiff Blues, Wales, #800
21. Rhys Webb – Ospreys, Wales, #820
22. Johnny Sexton – Leinster, Ireland, #791
23. Leigh Halfpenny – Toulon, Wales, #775


Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 1:10 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 1:11 pm

TJ wrote:guns - its true hence the soft interpretation of the laws for the purposes of replay.  they did a lot of video analysis and discovered that many passes travel forward due to the momenteum of the players hence the definitions used

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg

Yes I have seen that video

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by marty2086 on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 1:13 pm

ebop wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:My brother and nephew were apoplectic yesterday when we met up about the volume of forward passes missed by Peyper (especially pop passes and offloads). I have to confess though that (watching on my own) the potential issue had not even hit my consciousness.

There were a few of the pop passes that did look forward but given the close proximity think its always going to be hard to tell unless you replay it to death

Agreed.

Rugby wise, if you look hard enough (or far enough back) you can probably find an excuse to disallow pretty much any try.

I've seen some kiwis elsewhere online moaning about blocking in SOB's try - IMO that try was a thing of beauty and deserves to stand.
Exactly Pete. Wasn't blatantly obvious but Te'o seemed to bump SBW and affect his ability to reach Williams. I'm ok it wasn't looked at. Was a nice try.

Don't think there was that much in it, Te'o was trotting back and had stopped when Williams cut inside SBW who turned into Te'o don't think it made much of a difference to the tackle

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 1:22 pm

marty2086 wrote:

Don't think there was that much in it, Te'o was trotting back and had stopped when Williams cut inside SBW who turned into Te'o don't think it made much of a difference to the tackle

Agreed. As I said, I'm quite happy for that try to stand. I look forward to seeing it replayed regularly in the coming years too.

Though if an AB had done it there'd have been a riot on social media & Gatland would've had a proper whinge Wink
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by TJ on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 2:02 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Well I hope Finn gets some meaningful time. We need a spark at 10 badly.

I don't think there is much point. Russell needs a team set up to play his way and familar players around him. All playing him would do is allow Gatland to "prove" himself right not to take him in the first place as Russell is likely not to be able to do much and it might mess with Russells head

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 2:04 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Don't think there was that much in it, Te'o was trotting back and had stopped when Williams cut inside SBW who turned into Te'o don't think it made much of a difference to the tackle

Agreed. As I said, I'm quite happy for that try to stand. I look forward to seeing it replayed regularly in the coming years too.

Though if an AB had done it there'd have been a riot on social media & Gatland would've had a proper whinge Wink


Hes too busy not complaining about the forward passes

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by marty2086 on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 2:11 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Don't think there was that much in it, Te'o was trotting back and had stopped when Williams cut inside SBW who turned into Te'o don't think it made much of a difference to the tackle

Agreed. As I said, I'm quite happy for that try to stand. I look forward to seeing it replayed regularly in the coming years too.

Though if an AB had done it there'd have been a riot on social media & Gatland would've had a proper whinge Wink

Gatlands just a miserable bar steward, problem is if it was an AB you know it would have been deliberate Whistle

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 2:14 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Don't think there was that much in it, Te'o was trotting back and had stopped when Williams cut inside SBW who turned into Te'o don't think it made much of a difference to the tackle

Agreed. As I said, I'm quite happy for that try to stand. I look forward to seeing it replayed regularly in the coming years too.

Though if an AB had done it there'd have been a riot on social media & Gatland would've had a proper whinge Wink


Hes too busy not complaining about the forward passes

True. That and moaning about people daring to try and charge down box kicks Wink
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 2:20 pm

marty2086 wrote:Gatlands just a miserable bar steward, problem is if it was an AB you know it would have been deliberate Whistle


Well he is a Kiwi after all?



Admittedly one who has worked in England, Ireland and Wales.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by marty2086 on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 2:22 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Gatlands just a miserable bar steward, problem is if it was an AB you know it would have been deliberate Whistle


Well he is a Kiwi after all?



Admittedly one who has worked in England, Ireland and Wales.

The only place he seemed anyway cheery was in England when he was at Wasps, must have felt at home there

Run

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Taylorman on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 4:53 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Hood83 wrote:
mid_gen wrote:Have to revise the strategy of box-kicking possession back to the ABs constantly, despite Murray being very good at it, it wasn't working for us.

Bench needs to be reworked to bring on some impact players up front Lawes, Stander, Marler, Sinckler....and some pace, JJ?


Problem is I get the impression it's used as much as a way to give our forwards a breather. Fitness and intensity still seem to be a problem for us, incredibly.

Its the way the NH set up their game and also in part to the conditions. If the game is played 3/4 of the time in cold, wet conditions then you build players to be slower, force fewer passes and linebreaks are more difficult to maintain... so you have bigger backlines, more suited 10 yard smashes rather than clean breaks.

Look at junior rugby for instance and the JRWC... NH players are men and look like their training regime is 30% rugby, 70% deadlift. England physically dominate other sides but whereas size can win, the smaller SH players are playing an offloading game, one handed plays, tracking channels rather than standing behind the carrier for the expected ruck clearance. It breeds better players in the long term for the test arena.
England's U20s were amongst the smallest teams in the tournament.

Talk of NH and SH is nonsense. While it is true that NZ are the best team the rest of the SH are not really much cop as shown by recent NH results against them and world ranking where Australia and South Africa are out of the top four and still heading south.

Well same would be said of the NH outside England. The others chip away at best.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Cyril on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 5:15 pm

SA have just had a very good 3-0 Test series in France.

However, I'd say that while there is a NZ dominance over the sport, there's not a North/South divide like there once was.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by robbo277 on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 5:32 pm

NH players don't work smart enough. If you watch the All Blacks, carriers step before contact to prevent dominant tackles, then work themselves on the floor to move the ball away from would-be jacklers. This makes it much harder for the 15 players on the other team, and much easier for the 14 players wearing the same jersey as you.

I don't think it's a fitness issue, it's just about making the other guys work harder for everything, so they spend their energy.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by ebop on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 8:26 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Don't think there was that much in it, Te'o was trotting back and had stopped when Williams cut inside SBW who turned into Te'o don't think it made much of a difference to the tackle

Agreed. As I said, I'm quite happy for that try to stand. I look forward to seeing it replayed regularly in the coming years too.

Though if an AB had done it there'd have been a riot on social media & Gatland would've had a proper whinge Wink


Hes too busy not complaining about the forward passes

True. That and moaning about people daring to try and charge down box kicks Wink
True, and moaning about NZ scrums
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by fa0019 on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 8:56 pm

Cyril wrote:SA have just had a very good 3-0 Test series in France.

However, I'd say that while there is a NZ dominance over the sport, there's not a North/South divide like there once was.

It is and it isn't. Say we go back to the end of the 99 world cup.

NZ have stretched their dominance, SA and France have dropped back significantly and AUS & ENG are about where they have been since 2001.

Wales, Scotland and Ireland are far far more competitive.

However I would still be comfortable in saying that of the 5 teams that have featured in RWC finals... I don't see any others joining the club anytime soon and in 50 years time does anyone bet that we'll see any other name on the trophy bar those already on it?

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by fa0019 on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 9:08 pm

robbo277 wrote:NH players don't work smart enough. If you watch the All Blacks, carriers step before contact to prevent dominant tackles, then work themselves on the floor to move the ball away from would-be jacklers. This makes it much harder for the 15 players on the other team, and much easier for the 14 players wearing the same jersey as you.

I don't think it's a fitness issue, it's just about making the other guys work harder for everything, so they spend their energy.

I think if we watched Ireland and England last summer you would perhaps reconsider. Ireland last year played 6 games vs SA, AUS and NZ. The won 3 (one against each). England played SA and AUS 5 times and won all 5. The play at times were majestic.

NZ is a very experienced team and if you put blindfolds on them they would probably do a decent job of knowing where to be. They know each other in and out.. but so do most teams that are comfortable with each other.

The lions looked like a team who hadn't played together. They were in part committed but they hadn't developed a 6th sense which combinations get.

Murray, Farrell, Teo... on paper its a quality 9 10 12

in practice a Murray, Sexton, Henshaw on saturday would have done far better I'm sure.

Its not just combinations its new strategy's, expectations and plays. The 97 tour had 14 games. Today there are 10. Calls, backline defensives they were all less complex. The lions were looked like they were thinking where they needed to be.... NZ just worked off instinct because after 50 tests together things just click.

Alf Ramsey of 66 fame was famous for saying he didn't pick the best players, just the best team. Thats what the lions should have done on this tour. Jiffy said the same thing... find your most dominant team and make small improves here and there but keep the base.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 9:22 pm

I see some are still making ridiculous changes. I believe the most sensible ones are:
McGrath/Marler for Mako - no idea why Gatland sees the LH props in this order. I think Marler has been the best.
Owens/Best for George - just because George is better off the bench.
Itoje for AWJ and Henderson to the bench - Henderson covers 6 as well so it'd be interesting to see him come on with both locks still starting.
Warburton for SOB - the most obvious one for me. A better leader and breakdown operator. I felt both the Irish flankers were underwhelming at the breakdown and POMs leadership at times was non-existent.

Backs I would leave unchanged as it was the pack who got duffed up, although I'd be tempted to switch the fly-halves around with Farrell becoming the bench option.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by George Carlin on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 9:47 pm

Gatlanf won't change a thing. 

We'll lose by 16 this time.

As with the first test, I genuinely hope that we do well and the players do themselves justice but I won't go out of my way to watch the match.
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Griff on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 9:52 pm

George Carlin wrote:Gatlanf won't change a thing. 

We'll lose by 16 this time.

As with the first test, I genuinely hope that we do well and the players do themselves justice but I won't go out of my way to watch the match.


Thanks for letting us know! thumbsup


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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Scottrf on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 10:52 pm

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10155040649853692&id=1153165471472631
Does have Lions relevance if you're unsure at the start.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Ozzy3213 on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 12:50 am

fa0019 wrote:
robbo277 wrote:NH players don't work smart enough. If you watch the All Blacks, carriers step before contact to prevent dominant tackles, then work themselves on the floor to move the ball away from would-be jacklers. This makes it much harder for the 15 players on the other team, and much easier for the 14 players wearing the same jersey as you.

I don't think it's a fitness issue, it's just about making the other guys work harder for everything, so they spend their energy.

I think if we watched Ireland and England last summer you would perhaps reconsider. Ireland last year played 6 games vs SA, AUS and NZ. The won 3 (one against each). England played SA and AUS 5 times and won all 5. The play at times were majestic.

NZ is a very experienced team and if you put blindfolds on them they would probably do a decent job of knowing where to be. They know each other in and out.. but so do most teams that are comfortable with each other.

The lions looked like a team who hadn't played together. They were in part committed but they hadn't developed a 6th sense which combinations get.

Murray, Farrell, Teo... on paper its a quality 9 10 12

in practice a Murray, Sexton, Henshaw on saturday would have done far better I'm sure.

Its not just combinations its new strategy's, expectations and plays. The 97 tour had 14 games. Today there are 10. Calls, backline defensives they were all less complex. The lions were looked like they were thinking where they needed to be.... NZ just worked off instinct because after 50 tests together things just click.

Alf Ramsey of 66 fame was famous for saying he didn't pick the best players, just the best team. Thats what the lions should have done on this tour. Jiffy said the same thing... find your most dominant team and make small improves here and there but keep the base.

There's certainly a credible argument for picking units in keys areas, and there are certainly enough of them within the squad to make it work.
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Griff on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 9:06 am

Griff wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Gatlanf won't change a thing. 

We'll lose by 16 this time.

As with the first test, I genuinely hope that we do well and the players do themselves justice but I won't go out of my way to watch the match.


Thanks for letting us know! thumbsup

Sorry George, that was my attempt at sarcasm/banter but reading it back it just sounds a bit sh*tty! Apologies.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by beshocked on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 9:46 am

fa0019 wrote:
Cyril wrote:SA have just had a very good 3-0 Test series in France.

However, I'd say that while there is a NZ dominance over the sport, there's not a North/South divide like there once was.

It is and it isn't. Say we go back to the end of the 99 world cup.

NZ have stretched their dominance, SA and France have dropped back significantly and AUS & ENG are about where they have been since 2001.

Wales, Scotland and Ireland are far far more competitive.

However I would still be comfortable in saying that of the 5 teams that have featured in RWC finals... I don't see any others joining the club anytime soon and in 50 years time does anyone bet that we'll see any other name on the trophy bar those already on it?


Pool C doesn't look as bad for England at the moment. Things can change quickly though. Argentina are a different beast in RWCs though.

France surely can't continue to be this poor.


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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Exiledinborders on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 3:45 pm

beshocked wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Cyril wrote:SA have just had a very good 3-0 Test series in France.

However, I'd say that while there is a NZ dominance over the sport, there's not a North/South divide like there once was.

It is and it isn't. Say we go back to the end of the 99 world cup.

NZ have stretched their dominance, SA and France have dropped back significantly and AUS & ENG are about where they have been since 2001.

Wales, Scotland and Ireland are far far more competitive.

However I would still be comfortable in saying that of the 5 teams that have featured in RWC finals... I don't see any others joining the club anytime soon and in 50 years time does anyone bet that we'll see any other name on the trophy bar those already on it?


Pool C doesn't look as bad for England at the moment. Things can change quickly though. Argentina are a different beast in RWCs though.

France surely can't continue to be this poor.

Who knows what might happen in the next few years? Here are a couple of possible scenarios:
- One or two of weaker SA teams seem likely to leave for Pro12 due to Super Rugby cuts. Could the others leave to join Premiership? It would help SA financially and allow them to keep players but bankrupt Australian and possibly even New Zealand rugby as they are reliant on South African TV money.
- French Rugby get their act together and build some sort of partnership like the AP and RFU have done. A decent academy system and more game time for French players could make French international rugby a force again.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Sin é on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 3:52 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I see some are still making ridiculous changes. I believe the most sensible ones are:
McGrath/Marler for Mako - no idea why Gatland sees the LH props in this order. I think Marler has been the best.
Owens/Best for George - just because George is better off the bench.
Itoje for AWJ and Henderson to the bench - Henderson covers 6 as well so it'd be interesting to see him come on with both locks still starting.
Warburton for SOB - the most obvious one for me. A better leader and breakdown operator. I felt both the Irish flankers were underwhelming at the breakdown and POMs leadership at times was non-existent.

Backs I would leave unchanged as it was the pack who got duffed up, although I'd be tempted to switch the fly-halves around with Farrell becoming the bench option.

At least when POM went off (with a knock), the Lions were still in the game. What did Warburton do to deserve promotion to be a starter instead of SOB? To start Warburton, you'd need another ball carrier on (like CJ Stander). And the Lions will be destroyed in the Lineout without POM.
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 3:57 pm

Itoje will help the lineout if played instead of Jones. But pom deserves another crack for me.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by rodders on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 3:58 pm

Cancel the rest of the tour be for Gats embarrasses the Lions further. He'll be calling up Shane Williams next.
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 4:32 pm

Sin é wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I see some are still making ridiculous changes. I believe the most sensible ones are:
McGrath/Marler for Mako - no idea why Gatland sees the LH props in this order. I think Marler has been the best.
Owens/Best for George - just because George is better off the bench.
Itoje for AWJ and Henderson to the bench - Henderson covers 6 as well so it'd be interesting to see him come on with both locks still starting.
Warburton for SOB - the most obvious one for me. A better leader and breakdown operator. I felt both the Irish flankers were underwhelming at the breakdown and POMs leadership at times was non-existent.

Backs I would leave unchanged as it was the pack who got duffed up, although I'd be tempted to switch the fly-halves around with Farrell becoming the bench option.

At least when POM went off (with a knock), the Lions were still in the game. What did Warburton do to deserve promotion to be a starter instead of SOB? To start Warburton, you'd need another ball carrier on (like CJ Stander). And the Lions will be destroyed in the Lineout without POM.

POM needs to shoulder his fair share of blame. For the whole time he was on the ABs won the breakdown battle and the gain line battle in attack and defence. As a back row forward it is his bread and butter to sort that out along with the 7 other forwards. Same with SOB and Faletau. Aaron Smith was getting good clean fast ball for the whole time POM was on the pitch.

The thing is Warburton didnt offer much more when he came on.

Personally I feel Rory Best should be selected ahead of Geroge as this would go some way to solving the breakdown issues as George doesnt seem to offer much outside of lineout throwing.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 4:44 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I see some are still making ridiculous changes. I believe the most sensible ones are:
McGrath/Marler for Mako - no idea why Gatland sees the LH props in this order. I think Marler has been the best.
Owens/Best for George - just because George is better off the bench.
Itoje for AWJ and Henderson to the bench - Henderson covers 6 as well so it'd be interesting to see him come on with both locks still starting.
Warburton for SOB - the most obvious one for me. A better leader and breakdown operator. I felt both the Irish flankers were underwhelming at the breakdown and POMs leadership at times was non-existent.

Backs I would leave unchanged as it was the pack who got duffed up, although I'd be tempted to switch the fly-halves around with Farrell becoming the bench option.

At least when POM went off (with a knock), the Lions were still in the game. What did Warburton do to deserve promotion to be a starter instead of SOB? To start Warburton, you'd need another ball carrier on (like CJ Stander). And the Lions will be destroyed in the Lineout without POM.

POM needs to shoulder his fair share of blame. For the whole time he was on the ABs won the breakdown battle and the gain line battle in attack and defence. As a back row forward it is his bread and butter to sort that out along with the 7 other forwards. Same with SOB and Faletau. Aaron Smith was getting good clean fast ball for the whole time POM was on the pitch.

The thing is Warburton didnt offer much more when he came on.

Personally I feel Rory Best should be selected ahead of Geroge as this would go some way to solving the breakdown issues as George doesnt seem to offer much outside of lineout throwing.

The only selection in the back-row I suggested was Warbs for SOB, not POM who would stay on the flank, with either SOB or Stander on the bench. Not sure why we'd need another carrier as you put it. They won't be doing much carrying unless we at least gain parity in the front 5. As I said both weren't at the races at the breakdown and I could clearly see Warbs trying to get stuck in when he came on, although it was a difficult task for all Lions players seeing as the ABs weren't reffed in that area.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 4:49 pm

I didnt suggest we needed another carrier?

Anyway SOB has offered so much more than Warburton on this tour so not sure what bringing in an off form Warburton would achieve.


Bring in Itoje and Best and that would solve a lot of the issues IMO. Possibly Sexton for Farrell. Sexton being a better defender.


Last edited by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 4:51 pm

Responding to Sin and you in one, I know that you didn't say we needed an additional carrier.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 4:52 pm

Fair enough

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 4:53 pm

Not sure Gatland needs to change too much. I think he is doing a good job and the Lions arent too far away from getting a win.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 4:53 pm

I agree with you on bringing in Itoje and Best though.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Cyril on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 4:57 pm

Best? Who is going to take line outs?

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 4:57 pm

Cyril wrote:Best? Who is going to take line outs?

Whitelock and Retallick.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Griff on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 4:59 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Cyril wrote:Best? Who is going to take line outs?

Whitelock and Retallick.

Boom!

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Comfort on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 5:03 pm

Opinions on the game:
Front 5 were a bit rubbish in all honestly.
AWJ/Kruis were as bad as eachother (excluding Kruis running a decent lineout), arguing who was better is like 2 bald men fighting over a comb.
The entire team was obliterated at the breakdown, backline actually did really well with the ball they had, JD2 proved a lot of people on here wrong.


The side I'd start for the next test:

1. Marler
2. Owens
3. Furlong
4. Itoje
5. Kruis
6. SOB
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau
9. Murray
10. Farrell
11. Watson
12. Teo
13. JD2
14. Daly
15. Williams

16. Vunipola
17. George
18. Sinckler
19. Henderson
20. Stander
21. Webb
22. Biggar
23. Joseph

I'd look to play a more set-piece orientated front row and bring on a big dynamic replacements to step up the intensity in the loose.
Kruis stays to run the lineout which was decent.
Tips comes in at 7 to help at the breakdown, SOB moves to 6 (Tips is also a very good lineout option replacing POM).
Henderson/Stander on the bench to add physicality/dynamism in the loose later in the game.
Backline as you are again to start with but with Biggar on the bench (surprisingly, as a welsh fan especially, Biggars been the most attacking 10 on tour - that we've seen play....).

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 5:03 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Cyril wrote:Best? Who is going to take line outs?

Whitelock and Retallick.

How many lineouts has Best botched per game? 1 maybe? It would be worth it overall. I dont think he messed up any today either.

Here are my changes

Best for George -  better at the breakdown and literally every where else bar the throwing. George doesnt offer much.
Sexton for Farrell - Sexton would counter the narrow AB attack with choke tackles and more physicality and I believe that this would prevent so much AB gain line dominance.
Itoje for AWJ - Henderson on the bench. I was wrong about AWJ he has been poor. He looked out of his depth last Saturday. Was disappointing.

I would be tempted to keep the rest of the team.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 5:52 pm

I agree about george guns. Apart from he's good at the scrum and the loose as well. Apart from that you're spot on!

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by TJ on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 5:55 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Not sure Gatland needs to change too much. I think he is doing a good job and the Lions arent too far away from getting a win.

Really? IMO they were lucky to only be second best. Played off the park in every position bar a virtuoso performance from loopy liam

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Cyril on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 11:07 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Cyril wrote:Best? Who is going to take line outs?

Whitelock and Retallick.

How many lineouts has Best botched per game? 1 maybe? It would be worth it overall. I dont think he messed up any today either.

Here are my changes

Best for George -  better at the breakdown and literally every where else bar the throwing. George doesnt offer much.
Sexton for Farrell - Sexton would counter the narrow AB attack with choke tackles and more physicality and I believe that this would prevent so much AB gain line dominance.
Itoje for AWJ - Henderson on the bench. I was wrong about AWJ he has been poor. He looked out of his depth last Saturday. Was disappointing.

I would be tempted to keep the rest of the team.
Best is terrible. Seriously the worst Lion since Earls or AWJ (or all those Welsh guys who nobody has heard of). Or Russell.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Sin é on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 11:12 pm

Cyril wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Cyril wrote:Best? Who is going to take line outs?

Whitelock and Retallick.

How many lineouts has Best botched per game? 1 maybe? It would be worth it overall. I dont think he messed up any today either.

Here are my changes

Best for George -  better at the breakdown and literally every where else bar the throwing. George doesnt offer much.
Sexton for Farrell - Sexton would counter the narrow AB attack with choke tackles and more physicality and I believe that this would prevent so much AB gain line dominance.
Itoje for AWJ - Henderson on the bench. I was wrong about AWJ he has been poor. He looked out of his depth last Saturday. Was disappointing.

I would be tempted to keep the rest of the team.
Best is terrible. Seriously the worst Lion since Earls or AWJ (or all those Welsh guys who nobody has heard of). Or Russell.

... em, none of them were as bad as Phil Vickery - absolutely destroyed in the first test in SA, taken off just after half time having conceeded a rake of penalties. He is the reason the Lions lost the first test in SA.
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Cyril on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 11:28 pm

Sin é wrote:
Cyril wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Cyril wrote:Best? Who is going to take line outs?

Whitelock and Retallick.

How many lineouts has Best botched per game? 1 maybe? It would be worth it overall. I dont think he messed up any today either.

Here are my changes

Best for George -  better at the breakdown and literally every where else bar the throwing. George doesnt offer much.
Sexton for Farrell - Sexton would counter the narrow AB attack with choke tackles and more physicality and I believe that this would prevent so much AB gain line dominance.
Itoje for AWJ - Henderson on the bench. I was wrong about AWJ he has been poor. He looked out of his depth last Saturday. Was disappointing.

I would be tempted to keep the rest of the team.
Best is terrible. Seriously the worst Lion since Earls or AWJ (or all those Welsh guys who nobody has heard of). Or Russell.

... em, none of them were as bad as Phil Vickery - absolutely destroyed in the first test in SA, taken off just after half time having conceeded a rake of penalties. He is the reason the Lions lost the first test in SA.
Sorry, I forgot O'Mahony during the last failure. The meekest, mildest, worst captain ever. Might as well have had a sponge in charge. Back to the dirt-trackers you go. He made Warburton look like a Titan. Jeez.


Last edited by Cyril on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 11:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 27 Jun 2017, 11:29 pm

Best should be nowhere the test team. A hookers darts can't be that bad with a scratch team, we'd get hammered in the lineout.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by George Carlin on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 7:47 am

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 8:28 am

Best darts have been no worse than Owens on this tour and he offers a bit more in the scrum and a hell of a lot more at the breakdown,

Also don't blame the backrow for the Test defeat - they will always struggle when the front 5 come up short and every single player in the starting front 5 came up short and in the second row by a country mile

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 8:38 am

Anyone without the ball struggles a bit with peyper. And we kept kicking them the ball!

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by TightHEAD on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 9:35 am

Which Kiwi numpty attacked John Spencer (Lions tour Manager) on Sunday?

I heard there was a push and a shove in a restaurant before the drunk Kiwi fell the wrong side and slowed it down, he also went unpunished by the authorities.

Typical Kiwi attitude. Kiwi
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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 9:37 am

TightHEAD wrote:Which Kiwi numpty attacked John Spencer (Lions tour Manager) on Sunday?

I heard there was a push and a shove in a restaurant before the drunk Kiwi fell the wrong side and slowed it down, he also went unpunished by the authorities.

Typical Kiwi attitude. Kiwi

Rumour has it that it was you dressed up as a Kiwi.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

Post by beshocked on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 9:38 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Best darts have been no worse than Owens on this tour and he offers a bit more in the scrum and a hell of a lot more at the breakdown,

Also don't blame the backrow for the Test defeat - they will always struggle when the front 5 come up short and every single player in the starting front 5 came up short and in the second row by a country mile

First time I think I've heard someone blaming the front five for the shoddy work done at the breakdown by the backrow.

Now of course the breakdown isn't solely down to 1 player but the backrow is key.

At the lineout, the Lions competed really well and probably had the upperhand so not everything at set piece went against the Lions.

Stander needs to come into the 23.

I'd be okay with Lawes-Itoje starting in the 2nd row.


Best would be fine as an impact off the bench.

Both Kruis and AWJ would be out with Henderson on the bench.


I think the biggest question is -how to fix backrow balance.

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Re: NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

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