Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

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Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Fanster on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 10:33 am

First topic message reminder :

Vunipola 40
George 17 (0 starts)
Furong 16
AWJ 110
Kruis 20

Itoje 12

What is the obvious stat here capwise that without AWJ the lions don't have? jesus that kiwi tight5 average 70 plus each don't they?!?! How can anyone not view our tight 5 as massively inexperienced. Mako Vunipola I still classed as inexperienced and he'd have to lead!!! with this being Georges first ever test start also.

I think George starting is a massive call, one I understand, I personally would've gone for Owens but hey, off the bench he's a great option. George will need experience around him, he needs a cool head who's seen everything before, and I think Sinckler is a victim of Georges selection, had Owens started I think Sinckler would have also.

Very few people seem to rate AWJ, he has been lauded the best lock in the world recently, until Howley got his hands on the team and created another horror show, most people were considering AWJ, Itoje and Jonny Grey as test starters (Istill don'T understand Greys exclusion but hey).

The AWJ is a non issue, he's good enough, he's needed far more than any other player we have, let alone forward, let alone lock.

My worry is points left on the park, and Gatlands selection of players who are still in recovery from FULL 80 MINUTES!!!!!

There are too many question marks around starters for me to feel comfortable...

Georges lack of experience,
Front row combination looks unbalanced,
Back row combo looks unbalanced,
Inexperienced captain,
Farrells lack of game time at 10 on the highest stage, and injury
Teo's inability to do anything but act like Jamie Roberts
Davies's fitness
both wingers defencive capabilities (although Watsons less so)
Kicking options are limited
Liam Williams lack of gametime from 15
Inexperience of the squad as a whole

I think this is a risky selection, and I get it, Gatland has to take risks to win in NZ, but for me risks can be optimised and minimilsed in certain areas, whereas it almost feels like an 'everything on red 23' moment.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by BamBam on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:45 am

That is true .. AWJ is very experienced at losing, should be great at dealing with it

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Cyril on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:45 am

Fanster wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Fanster wrote:Luckless

You'd be willing to bet your lineout on 3 players who have never played together at international rugby, one of whom has never started a test, against the best team in the world in a winner take all 3 test series?

Seriously? no chance, and if anyone here was a selector AWJ woud be selected 100% of the time.

Who would be the idiot making the only change to a pack that hammered the kiwi tight 5 set peice 2 weeks ago, taking the only player with any lions, or real international experience out?

What exactly is 'real' international experience? What international experience are you discounting? England's Grand Slam? Their 3 - 0 series win against Australia?

Jamie George has never started for England, that's true. But a Test cap is a Test cap whether you start a match or finish it.

How many minutes have these 3 guys played together on the international stage? Hartley was the hooker, Itoje played 6 all 6N, so I ask again, how much experience do these 3 guys have on the international stage as a unit? 0 would be my answer, and people want to see them for the first time against NZ in the biggest game of their collective 45 caps?

George has never run out of the tunnell to take the field in an international arena, he's never been involved straight after an anthem, haka, or had to deal with the pressure of the media in the build up like he is having to now! They might seem like little things, but he needs cool heads around him, he's deserved this test start, but also he knows the kiwis will test him early on, when you select a team you have to gel new players with experience.
Do you think he might get lost and trapped in the toilet?

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:46 am

Can you answer what Jones brings apart from experience fanster? Surely what you're really saying is that the group needs leadership anyway which doesn't just come with experience. For example Biggar was the leader in the wlesh team in the 6ns.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by BamBam on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:47 am

Cyril wrote:
Fanster wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Fanster wrote:Luckless

You'd be willing to bet your lineout on 3 players who have never played together at international rugby, one of whom has never started a test, against the best team in the world in a winner take all 3 test series?

Seriously? no chance, and if anyone here was a selector AWJ woud be selected 100% of the time.

Who would be the idiot making the only change to a pack that hammered the kiwi tight 5 set peice 2 weeks ago, taking the only player with any lions, or real international experience out?

What exactly is 'real' international experience? What international experience are you discounting? England's Grand Slam? Their 3 - 0 series win against Australia?

Jamie George has never started for England, that's true. But a Test cap is a Test cap whether you start a match or finish it.

How many minutes have these 3 guys played together on the international stage? Hartley was the hooker, Itoje played 6 all 6N, so I ask again, how much experience do these 3 guys have on the international stage as a unit? 0 would be my answer, and people want to see them for the first time against NZ in the biggest game of their collective 45 caps?

George has never run out of the tunnell to take the field in an international arena, he's never been involved straight after an anthem, haka, or had to deal with the pressure of the media in the build up like he is having to now! They might seem like little things, but he needs cool heads around him, he's deserved this test start, but also he knows the kiwis will test him early on, when you select a team you have to gel new players with experience.
Do you think he might get lost and trapped in the toilet?

More likely the fridge

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:48 am

You leave Jamie George alone! heart

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by BamBam on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:49 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You leave Jamie George alone! heart

beshocked, haven't you been warned before about having multiple accounts

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:51 am

Laugh Very good!

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Sin é on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:52 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So seriously apart from experience what will jones bring on saturday that Itoje Lawes and henderson wouldn't?

Itoje & Henderson are great athletes. I think both are missing a bit of a natural edge. Itoje's edge (aggression) is manufactured and doesn't suit him.

I'd rate Lawes higher than both for that, but it can spill over into indiscipline. I really rate AWJ and I think Gatland made the right call.
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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by marty2086 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:52 am

So let me get it clear, AWJ is in for his experience despite his poor performances, Best and Owens aren't in despite their experience and good form but George is in despite his inexperience, have I got it right?

Do Georgee, Itoje and Kruis not have more experience with the lineout calls Rowntrees using?

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by marty2086 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:52 am

Sin é wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So seriously apart from experience what will jones bring on saturday that Itoje Lawes and henderson wouldn't?

Itoje & Henderson are great athletes. I think both are missing a bit of a natural edge. Itoje's edge (aggression) is manufactured and doesn't suit him.

I'd rate Lawes higher than both for that, but it can spill over into indiscipline. I really rate AWJ and I think Gatland made the right call.

Henderson has found his edge this tour

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:52 am

Fanster wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:The inexperience of Kruis and Itoje;

2 times European cup winners
1 Aviva title
1 grand slam and another 6 nations win
1 3-0 whitewash over Australia
Unbeaten as an international pairing

How many times have they paired internationally? Go search it out, i'll wait...

I'm assuming you are going to randomly discount any domestic and European club games?

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:53 am

And by that logic, how many times has AWJ paired with Kruis internationally?

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:54 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I'm assuming you are going to randomly discount any domestic and European club games?
They wont recognise each other when wearing new shirts.

People think teams start the season slowly because they are out of match practice but it's just because they've got new kits.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:55 am

So what will jones bring that the others won't on saturday sine? What's he shown on this tour to make you think he's the guy?

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:56 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:And by that logic, how many times has AWJ paired with Kruis internationally?



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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Griff on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:56 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So what will jones bring that the others won't on saturday sine? What's he shown on this tour to make you think he's the guy?

Experience. FFS, keep up! Wink

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Fanster on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:58 am

The arguments against AWJ are all invalid, not one thing has been said that negates the fact that this is the most inexperienced lions pack we've seen in ages/ever, without leadership qualities it would get eaten alive against the best team in the world!

There has been no argument made against AWJ having to start, if it's that losing to NZ with another team, then winning a series in a lions team negates it, if it's that he hasn't played well, then his selection, and performance against the Crusaders negates that, if it's that both locks are club mates and should know each other, their lack of combo on the international stage negates that.

My arguments about an inexperienced pack stand up, there is no argument against AWJ, he is necesary.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by BamBam on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:58 am

Griff wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So what will jones bring that the others won't on saturday sine? What's he shown on this tour to make you think he's the guy?

Experience.  FFS, keep up!  Wink

Class. Passion. World renown


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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by BamBam on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:59 am

Fanster wrote:The arguments against AWJ are all invalid, not one thing has been said that negates the fact that this is the most inexperienced lions pack we've seen in ages/ever, without leadership qualities it would get eaten alive against the best team in the world!

There has been no argument made against AWJ having to start, if it's that losing to NZ with another team, then winning a series in a lions team negates it, if it's that he hasn't played well, then his selection, and performance against the Crusaders negates that, if it's that both locks are club mates and should know each other, their lack of combo on the international stage negates that.

My arguments about an inexperienced pack stand up, there is no argument against AWJ, he is necesary.

Oh ok, that's that settled then

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by marty2086 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:00 pm

Fanster wrote:
My arguments about an inexperienced pack stand up, there is no argument against AWJ, he is necesary.

Is that a direct quote from Gatland?

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Fanster on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:02 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:And by that logic, how many times has AWJ paired with Kruis internationally?



Hence proving my point, I'm not advocating for existing combinations, everyone else is.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:04 pm

Experience doesn't make him better than Kruis, Itoje, Lawes or Henderson, he simply isn't as good as any of them any more.

Kruis and Itoje have more experience playing together than any other possible second row combination, I also don't buy the idea that Itoje is a hot head because POM stole a line out.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:08 pm

Fanster wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:And by that logic, how many times has AWJ paired with Kruis internationally?



Hence proving my point, I'm not advocating for existing combinations, everyone else is.

Then why would you specifically ask how many times Itoje and Kruis had paired together internationally if it isn't important?

I think you'll declare yourself right and every opinion that doesn't match yours to be wrong or "no argument" regardless of whether the counter arguments or statistics don't match your narrative.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:09 pm

What has experience got to do with how well your playing? All that experience will count for feck all if your having a nightmare of a game.
AWJ is currently performing as the 4th best 2nd row on tour (if Henderson hadn't been so gash against the barbarians I would put AWJ 5th).
AWJ " right lads sorry I have missed another tackle , been slow to the breakdowns and got turned over again, but come on follow my experience and we will win"

So I hope he rediscovers his form, but it's a big gamble

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Sin é on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So what will jones bring that the others won't on saturday sine? What's he shown on this tour to make you think he's the guy?

I think the other lads are just great athletes - AWJ is someone who leads from the front in the mould of Martin Johnson (who wasn't a great athlete) but a great lock.
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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by marty2086 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:11 pm

carpet baboon wrote:What has experience got to do with how well your playing? All that experience will count for feck all if your having a nightmare of a game.
AWJ is currently performing as the 4th best 2nd row on tour (if Henderson hadn't been so gash against the barbarians I would put AWJ 5th).
AWJ " right lads sorry I have missed another tackle , been slow to the breakdowns and got turned over again, but come on follow my experience and we will win"

So I hope he rediscovers his form, but it's a big gamble

Jones was hardly on form in that game either

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Fanster on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:11 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Experience doesn't make him better than Kruis, Itoje, Lawes or Henderson, he simply isn't as good as any of them any more.

Kruis and Itoje have more experience playing together than any other possible second row combination, I also don't buy the idea that Itoje is a hot head because POM stole a line out.

I never said he was BETTER than Kruis, I will say he is better than Lawes and Henderson. Itoje is a difficult comparison because they are very different styles of lock.

Kruis and Itoje have tons of experience playing together, but at lower levels than international, and lions test. Have they even combo'd on the international stage? they certainly havn't combo'd in an international competition! when you add George to themix you increase risk and reduce reward, therefore all 3 cannot have their first ever international test on this stage, it would be madness!

I don't think you understand my position correctly, I'm not saying AWJ is the best lock we have on tour, i'm saying when margins are this tight, he has to start in test one, because of the risks elsewhere!

I don't think Itoje is a hot head, I think he's quality and unlucky not to start, had Best, Warburton or other leaders warranted inclusion in test 1 I would be happy to see Kruis and Itoje start together, thats not the situation we're in though is it`?

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:14 pm

Sin é wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So what will jones bring that the others won't on saturday sine? What's he shown on this tour to make you think he's the guy?

I think the other lads are just great athletes - AWJ is someone who leads from the front in the mould of Martin Johnson (who wasn't a great athlete) but a great lock.

Kruis and Itoje both lead from the front through their performances, it's easy to overlook that despite being 22 Itoje is the one dragging his team mates away from any combustible situation and he's the one who's constantly encouraging the team.

AWJ was a once very good player but the second row has moved on and left him behind now and it's worth remembering also his decision making in the 6 nations was very poor.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Fanster on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:15 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Fanster wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:And by that logic, how many times has AWJ paired with Kruis internationally?



Hence proving my point, I'm not advocating for existing combinations, everyone else is.

Then why would you specifically ask how many times Itoje and Kruis had paired together internationally if it isn't important?

I think you'll declare yourself right and every opinion that doesn't match yours to be wrong or "no argument" regardless of whether the counter arguments or statistics don't match your narrative.

I'm not advocating partnerships, I am saying Itoje and Kruis don't get to use the partnership argument against AWJ when the've never played together on the international stage...

I'm wrong about a lot of things, Jonny Grey being a test starter one of them, Launchbury being in the running, Hoggs lack of defencive qualities ruling him out, Daly not starting test 1, these arguments against my opinion have merit. Arguments against the only leader named in the tight 5 don't stack up thus far, if someone proves me wrong I'll happily accept their point, like the partnership of Kruis Itoje and George, to a degree it makes sense, but it's too much of a risk when they've never been tested beyond club rugby

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by marty2086 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:16 pm

Fanster wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Experience doesn't make him better than Kruis, Itoje, Lawes or Henderson, he simply isn't as good as any of them any more.

Kruis and Itoje have more experience playing together than any other possible second row combination, I also don't buy the idea that Itoje is a hot head because POM stole a line out.

I never said he was BETTER than Kruis, I will say he is better than Lawes and Henderson. Itoje is a difficult comparison because they are very different styles of lock.

Kruis and Itoje have tons of experience playing together, but at lower levels than international, and lions test. Have they even combo'd on the international stage? they certainly havn't combo'd in an international competition! when you add George to themix you increase risk and reduce reward, therefore all 3 cannot have their first ever international test on this stage, it would be madness!

I don't think you understand my position correctly, I'm not saying AWJ is the best lock we have on tour, i'm saying when margins are this tight, he has to start in test one, because of the risks elsewhere!

I don't think Itoje is a hot head, I think he's quality and unlucky not to start, had Best, Warburton or other leaders warranted inclusion in test 1 I would be happy to see Kruis and Itoje start together, thats not the situation we're in though is it`?

I don't think you grasp the ridiculousness of your own argument

Its about reducing risk but picking the only player without a Test start isn't a big risk? Picking guys who are missing tackles, not passing and turning the ball over isn't? Erm

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:17 pm

Fanster wrote:
I never said he was BETTER than Kruis, I will say he is better than Lawes and Henderson. Itoje is a difficult comparison because they are very different styles of lock.

Kruis and Itoje have tons of experience playing together, but at lower levels than international, and lions test. Have they even combo'd on the international stage? they certainly havn't combo'd in an international competition! when you add George to themix you increase risk and reduce reward, therefore all 3 cannot have their first ever international test on this stage, it would be madness!

I don't think you understand my position correctly, I'm not saying AWJ is the best lock we have on tour, i'm saying when margins are this tight, he has to start in test one, because of the risks elsewhere!

I don't think Itoje is a hot head, I think he's quality and unlucky not to start, had Best, Warburton or other leaders warranted inclusion in test 1 I would be happy to see Kruis and Itoje start together, thats not the situation we're in though is it`?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_England_rugby_union_tour_of_Australia

AWJ is no longer better than Lawes, not by a long shot and he's offer no point of difference and experience isn't one, it's merely an excuse to excuse a poor selection.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:18 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Sin é wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So what will jones bring that the others won't on saturday sine? What's he shown on this tour to make you think he's the guy?

I think the other lads are just great athletes - AWJ is someone who leads from the front in the mould of Martin Johnson (who wasn't a great athlete) but a great lock.

Kruis and Itoje both lead from the front through their performances, it's easy to overlook that despite being 22 Itoje is the one dragging his team mates away from any combustible situation and he's the one who's constantly encouraging the team.

AWJ was a once very good player but the second row has moved on and left him behind now and it's worth remembering also his decision making in the 6 nations was very poor.

A bit too much sometimes, for my liking. Maybe it's me!

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:21 pm

Fanster wrote:

I'm not advocatin.I am saying Itoje and Kruis don't get to use the partnership argument against AWJ when the've never played together on the international stage...

I'm wrong about a lot of things

Yes. Yes you are.

Grand Slam 2016. Injuries hampered that partnership in the games that followed.


Last edited by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:22 pm

Sin é wrote:Itoje lacks experience - he has hardly ever lost a game at either international or club level so has no experience of what its like when the chips are down (and they will be down next Saturday). Thats when you need an old warrior like AWJ to pull a few heads together - someone who has been there and done that. Itoje showed his lack of experience in the Ireland v England game when POM stole a lineout that he should have won and which would have won the game for England as they were in the Ireland 22. (Incidentally, that big play from POM is what probably what got him on the plane to NZ). I also thought Itoje didn't keep his head too well that day and looked to be got at.

Itoje is young, is a great athlete and will be a great player, though I'm not too sure whether he is much of a warrior though (like Martin Johnson).


I agree Sin. I think in games like this you need tough hardened leaders rather than soft new wave feminist hipsters like Itoje. I jest but seriously Itoje isnt really as wiley and experienced as AWJs is and I think that tips the balance in Jones' favour.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Sin é on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:22 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Experience doesn't make him better than Kruis, Itoje, Lawes or Henderson, he simply isn't as good as any of them any more.

Kruis and Itoje have more experience playing together than any other possible second row combination, I also don't buy the idea that Itoje is a hot head because POM stole a line out.

I wasn't selling that idea. Right throughout the game he was trying to be the hard man (seemingly Eddie Jones told him to show more aggression). I don't think it came off very well and he gave away 3 penalties.
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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Fanster on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:24 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Fanster wrote:
I never said he was BETTER than Kruis, I will say he is better than Lawes and Henderson. Itoje is a difficult comparison because they are very different styles of lock.

Kruis and Itoje have tons of experience playing together, but at lower levels than international, and lions test. Have they even combo'd on the international stage? they certainly havn't combo'd in an international competition! when you add George to themix you increase risk and reduce reward, therefore all 3 cannot have their first ever international test on this stage, it would be madness!

I don't think you understand my position correctly, I'm not saying AWJ is the best lock we have on tour, i'm saying when margins are this tight, he has to start in test one, because of the risks elsewhere!

I don't think Itoje is a hot head, I think he's quality and unlucky not to start, had Best, Warburton or other leaders warranted inclusion in test 1 I would be happy to see Kruis and Itoje start together, thats not the situation we're in though is it`?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_England_rugby_union_tour_of_Australia

AWJ is no longer better than Lawes, not by a long shot and he's offer no point of difference and experience isn't one, it's merely an excuse to excuse a poor selection.

I must apologise, I led you down the path of selecting the Australia tour to prove my point...

Who was the best hooker in England in 2016? Hartley has been anhialated over the past 12 months for his performances, yet he is very necesary to the England pack in a leadership role. Even if I concede AWJ is playing rubbish, which he is not, this lions team has far less leaders than that England pack had! And how did that partnership progress? Itoje moved to 6, and Kruis didn't figure in the 6N (Injury partially granted, but Lawes and Launchbury wouldn't have been replaced anyway!

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:27 pm

It doesn't prove any point at all when O'Mahony is the captain but good effort, keep trying and yes AWJ is playing rubbish, harsh reality.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Fanster on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:30 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Fanster wrote:

I'm not advocatin.I am saying Itoje and Kruis don't get to use the partnership argument against AWJ when the've never played together on the international stage...

I'm wrong about a lot of things

Yes. Yes you are.

Grand Slam 2016. Injuries hampered that partnership in the games that followed.

Itoje wasn't around fully in 2016, and was shipped to 6 in 2017 while Kruis was injured, desevedly so because Launchbury and Lawes were unstoppable! So you guys are looking for the very few times Itoje and Kruis have pertnered on the international stage, AND ignoring that Hartley ran things, you don't get why this proves my point?

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Fanster on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:31 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It doesn't prove any point at all when O'Mahony is the captain but good effort, keep trying and yes AWJ is playing rubbish, harsh reality.

How does POM disprove my argument? It#s a key factor in my argument, 40 caps and very little captain experience means we need as many leaders as possible? Does it not?

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:33 pm

Fanster wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Fanster wrote:

I'm not advocatin.I am saying Itoje and Kruis don't get to use the partnership argument against AWJ when the've never played together on the international stage...

I'm wrong about a lot of things

Yes. Yes you are.

Grand Slam 2016. Injuries hampered that partnership in the games that followed.

Itoje wasn't around fully in 2016, and was shipped to 6 in 2017 while Kruis was injured, desevedly so because Launchbury and Lawes were unstoppable! So you guys are looking for the very few times Itoje and Kruis have pertnered on the international stage, AND ignoring that Hartley ran things, you don't get why this proves my point?

You said they have never played together internationally. They have. Itoje starting at 4 and Kruis starting at 5. You are wrong.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:34 pm

Fanster wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:It doesn't prove any point at all when O'Mahony is the captain but good effort, keep trying and yes AWJ is playing rubbish, harsh reality.

How does POM disprove my argument? It#s a key factor in my argument, 40 caps and very little captain experience means we need as many leaders as possible? Does it not?

It completely nullifies your argument but keep prodding.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:34 pm

This "experience" line is utter tripe.
These are all professional rugby players. All internationals.its not like they are part timers who need someone to show them the way.
Saying he's been picked for his "experience" is saying I know he's not the best in that position but I'm hoping he can pull a game out of his ar*e

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Fanster on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:38 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Fanster wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:It doesn't prove any point at all when O'Mahony is the captain but good effort, keep trying and yes AWJ is playing rubbish, harsh reality.

How does POM disprove my argument? It#s a key factor in my argument, 40 caps and very little captain experience means we need as many leaders as possible? Does it not?

It completely nullifies your argument but keep prodding.

So you believe an inexperienced captain, negates the argument for leaders in the pack? Please explain...

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:40 pm

Peter O'Mahony is not an inexperienced captain, for goodness sake. He has captained his team in every level he has played. He has been the undisputed Munster captain for 3 or 4 years.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:41 pm

Fanster wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Fanster wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:It doesn't prove any point at all when O'Mahony is the captain but good effort, keep trying and yes AWJ is playing rubbish, harsh reality.

How does POM disprove my argument? It#s a key factor in my argument, 40 caps and very little captain experience means we need as many leaders as possible? Does it not?

It completely nullifies your argument but keep prodding.

So you believe an inexperienced captain, negates the argument for leaders in the pack? Please explain...


Obviously AWJ's experience isn't valued enough to make him captain and O'Mahony has been captain at Munster for years now.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Fanster on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:43 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Fanster wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Fanster wrote:

I'm not advocatin.I am saying Itoje and Kruis don't get to use the partnership argument against AWJ when the've never played together on the international stage...

I'm wrong about a lot of things

Yes. Yes you are.

Grand Slam 2016. Injuries hampered that partnership in the games that followed.

Itoje wasn't around fully in 2016, and was shipped to 6 in 2017 while Kruis was injured, desevedly so because Launchbury and Lawes were unstoppable! So you guys are looking for the very few times Itoje and Kruis have pertnered on the international stage, AND ignoring that Hartley ran things, you don't get why this proves my point?

You said they have never played together internationally. They have. Itoje starting at 4 and Kruis starting at 5. You are wrong.

Kruis and Itoje have tons of experience playing together, but at lower levels than international, and lions test. Have they even combo'd on the international stage? they certainly havn't combo'd in an international competition! when you add George to themix you increase risk and reduce reward, therefore all 3 cannot have their first ever international test on this stage, it would be madness!

Seriously ^^^

Are you going to call my speeling out at some point too? Read the entire thread, it makes sense.

Again, everyone seems to think I love AWJ and hate the others,it's not true, from a pure team performance perspective AWJ is probably the most important selection this week, he could be the difference to not having a set peice at all, and having to use the bench in the first half. Right there with Farrell who gets injured and the whole backline changes shape.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:44 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I agree Sin. I think in games like this you need tough hardened leaders rather than soft new wave feminist hipsters like Itoje. I jest but seriously Itoje isnt really as wiley and experienced as AWJs is and I think that tips the balance in Jones' favour.
So AWJ has given away 5 penalties and that shows he's wiley and experienced? Not buying it.

You can have 200 caps but if that doesn't translate to decent performances it's all useless. The game isn't won by comparing how many tests the players have played.

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Sin é on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:46 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Peter O'Mahony is not an inexperienced captain, for goodness sake. He has captained his team in every level he has played. He has been the undisputed Munster captain for 3 or 4 years.

Donnacha O'Callaghan tells a story in his article in Irish Times today worth repeating (just in case anyone thinks POM is an inexperienced captain).

We were in the middle of a pre-season. Training was finishing up and one of the coaches asked us to do some extra work.

“Are you lot going to join us?” I shouted across to Peter, as he and the rest of the academy players made their way towards the dressing room. Those piercing eyes glared back. “Lads, let’s get to the line,” he said to his peers.

All of them ran to where we were. You could see by the reaction of their faces that once Peter said something, well that was it. They did it.

The competitiveness shone through in that fitness session and afterwards he came across and quietly spoke to me. “We’re following a specialised programme,” he said. “Because of our age, we’ve been warned not to overtrain because we might suffer burnout. Don’t put me in that scenario again.”

In no uncertain terms, I had been put in my place. I admired him for it, loving the fact that he was marrying a new school of scientific thought with old school belligerent values.



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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by TrailApe on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:47 pm

negates the argument for leaders in the pack


How dare you - that was Gary Glitter's finest moment!
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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

Post by Fanster on Thu 22 Jun 2017, 12:51 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Peter O'Mahony is not an inexperienced captain, for goodness sake. He has captained his team in every level he has played. He has been the undisputed Munster captain for 3 or 4 years.

Are you kidding me? Mahony has only just got back into the Ireland team, and has had the odd captaincy when Best and Heaslip were injured against the likes of Canada! Best is an experienced captain, and lions tourist, Heaslip is an experienced captain, Mahony is learning like every other debutant on tour! I don't argue against his inclusion, I'm not even arguing against his captaincy, but don't argue the lions debutant, who has captained his country in the absence of the long term leaders an experienced captain at this level...

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Re: Lions pack, AWJ criticism, and an alternative view...

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