England vs South Africa - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

In the fast paced nature of international cricket, we are just over a week away from the first of four test matches between SA and England - should be a good one.

South Africa have named their squad...missing some big names in Steyn, ABDV - also no Dane Piedt, Stephen Cook either.

South Africa squad: Faf du Plessis (captain), Hashim Amla, Temba Bavuma, Theunis de Bruyn, Quinton de Kock, JP Duminy, Dean Elgar, Heino Kuhn, Keshav Maharaj, Aiden Markram, Morne Morkel, Chris Morris, Duanne Olivier, Andile Phehlukwayo, Vernon Philander, Kagiso Rabada.

Still a very strong team - especially in the seam bowling ranks. Although with Faf missing the first test, the batting is reliant on Amla and De Kock I feel

England have a few injury concerns - particularly Stuart Broad - any thoughts on the SA squad, and potential England one?

[alfie]

Hah ...we were wrong. Team looks better balanced , if a bit inexperienced . Hoping for some good starts for the new boys...and some solid batting all round to take advantage of the toss win...

Weather not so good , I hear ?

[VTR]

No Dawson which means England will win easily.  Right?  
Think we look a bowler light.

England batting first.  

Blimey - I don't think anyone is blaming Dawson for all the woes. Last game: was he responsible for the poor seam bowling - No. Was he responsible for the two batting collapses - No. Did he drop any sitters in the field - No.

No blame there, but he wasn't the right pick for Trent Bridge, and was therefore a waste of a place. The selectors are to blame

We don't look light on bowling today. 4 seamers + 1 spinner, some teams will still go in with 3 + 1. We do not need 6 bowlers. You've probably already lost the game if the 6th choice bowler is getting a lot of overs.

[alfie]

Oh dear ...Jennings

Big moment for Westley...

[VTR]

Jennings is really poor - I have no idea who the alternatives could be though, seems like they have all been tried at some point. He's fast going the way of Robson and Lyth who made a hundred early on then hardly anything after, though he's getting even fewer runs than those two

He will need a 50 second innings, or an England win to have any chance of staying in the side

[alfie]

I'm going to assume jimbo isn't having a laugh with that comment...

Seriously , if they are a bowler light , with Anderson Broad Moeen backed up by TRJ and Stokes ...and Jennings , Root and (allegedly) Malan capable of of turning their arm over...then it must be that one or two of those just aren't up to Test standard. Well we don't know how Roland-Jones will go yet ; but let's give him a chance ! The others , I would argue , have already proved their worth...

You could make a argument for two spinners (Warne is doing so !) but surely that should be at the expense of a seamer ? If the spinners are any good and it really does suit them , they won't need four pace men to help them , eh ?

Academic anyway . Team is as it is. We shall see...

[jimbohammers]

Alfie, I think there is room for another bowler, especially with Bairstow batting at 7!

[alfie]

Early yet ; but I'm liking the look of Westley. Hasn't been easy out there but he's stood up well so far.
Some nice strokes ; but more I'm happy with his relaxed demeanor . Hope he can go on.

What a good bowler is Philander ! Opening spell was excellent again despite his rumored off-colour lead in...worked Jennings over beautifully.

England glad to get through that first hour for just the one wicket.

[VTR]

I think Jimbo was being serious - he is the founding and sole member of the Liam Dawson fan club! That's fine by the way, it is a game of opinions after all

[LionsV2]

Alfie,  I think there is room for another bowler,  especially with Bairstow batting at 7!

At the expense of who?

An international side does not need 6 bowlers.

[alfie]

Alfie,  I think there is room for another bowler,  especially with Bairstow batting at 7!

Room , yes. But need ?. I honestly don't think so. And I really can't see that Dawson , handy cricketer though he is , represents a serious regular option for England , outside Asia (where he may well be useful)

Now maybe if it was Crane

But let us wait a year or so I think.

[alfie]

SA taking their turn to waste reviews

Surprised to see that was (allegedly !) hitting leg. Saved by the edge , but...it looked to be going down , live ...or my eyes are going ...

[alfie]

Early lunch ? Or just a passing shower ?

Good cricket so far.  Would just like to see these two take a few more singles to exploit the left-right divide...

Ah ! Back on before they made the boundary edge...

Edit : no. The rain wins. Lunch. Decent start for England.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Think I'm in love with Tom Westley's wrists

[king_carlos]

It's a promising start by Westley. He's looked very composed and not at all overawed by the situation. That temperament will serve him well if he can take his chance.

Technique wise it's not uncommon for batsman who bat across their stumps to find early success in test cricket. It's a technique which is very hard to bowl to if a batsman is in form, which they usually are when first given a chance. It often takes a bit of time for bowlers and captains to work out exactly what line and field placements to use to cut of their scoring areas too. As with most unorthodox techniques it allows players to score in unusual areas.

The problems the above then brings are obvious though. Firstly, when out of form LBW can become a painful frequent dismissal to watch - Jonathan Trott when out of form is a prime example here. Secondly, international sides will rapidly figure out how to cut out those unusual scoring areas. How Westley deals with that happening will be interesting.

[king_carlos]

This wont be popular but I feel a bit for Ballance now that Malan is getting a chance at 5. Ballance has a game that's far better suited to the middle order than top order. Shoehorning him back at 3 despite previous failures was pretty weak selectors and coaches. Failing to take the chance at 3 is still on Ballance but I can't help feeling for the guy a bit after his start to the summer with Yorkshire.

That said, I'm a big Malan fan so I'm happy to see him get a chance.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

The break (and Morris) claim Westley for 25

[GSC]

Decent recovery partnership. Jennings looks out of his depth against quality test seam bowlers but not sure there are that many alternatives. Hameeb just as out of form.

[king_carlos]

Hameed will likely come back in against the Windies. He has the technique and temperament to succeed long term which others haven't shown. That's no guarantee of success but it's a very good starting point.

There feels an element of preparing for the Ashes tour in this side. Two batsman in Westley and Malan who are positive and like the ball coming onto the bat.

A tall seamer in TRJ who should able to get some bounce and looks for seam movement more than swing. That's always vital with the kookaburra ball.

1.Cook
2.Hameed
3.Westley
4.Root (c)
5.Malan
6.Stokes
7.Bairstow (wk)
8.Moeen
9.Woakes/Wood/Plunkett/Ball/TRJ
10.Broad
11.Anderson

That's starting to look like a well balanced side. Albeit with question marks over the quality of some options.

Depth to the seamers will be vital in Oz with Wood having constant ankle problems, Broad and Anderson a lot of miles on the clock and Stokes taking on a big workload. I expect we will see some rotation of the seamers throughout that series.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Westley looked good I thought - just got a cracking nut from Morris there

[Gooseberry]

Well looks like they were trolling the media with all this 2 spinners nosense.
Yes in theory theres a great balance to this side but already we are seeing the reliamce on root and cook.
If the new bats can start consitently getting runs and wood stay fit for a whole game it would look a lot better.

Jennings desperately needs runs in the second innings. If not Englands plans are still in a real mess.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Another good ball from Philander gets Root, with a cracking take from QDK behind the stumps

Ball is swinging - and they're off for rain

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Another good ball from Philander gets Root, with a cracking take from QDK behind the stumps

Ball is swinging - and they're off for rain

Malan yorked by Rabada for a debut duck

[jimbohammers]

Malan gone for 1 off 17 balls....

[king_carlos]

SA are bowling some beauties.

Rabada had looked the least dangerous by a distance then produces that yorker to get Malan. It's a pretty gut wrenching delivery to get early on debut!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

A 90mph inswinging Yorker on your debut - what a nut to receive that is!

[alfie]

Several cracking deliveries to take wickets today ! I am more forgiving of batsmen falling to those than the thrown away wickets at Trent Bridge.

Much to like about the Westley debut. Looks the part ; bowlers will try to exploit his leg side bias but he has some shots and some judgement : hopefully will kick on from that.
Malan cut off too soon to tell. Not much he could have done about that one.

Tough day for batting. Ball doing a bit ; and with Maharaj doing a good holding job the seamers are rotating well and keeping the pressure on. Thank heavens for Cook...

[jimbohammers]

I think Jimbo was being serious - he is the founding and sole member of the Liam Dawson fan club! That's fine by the way, it is a game of opinions after all

I'm not - i just think the criticism he got was way OTT.

I said in the last game that he didn't look threatening enough with the ball. Based on the squad we had to pick from
in this game, i would have had Dawson over Malan.
That doesn't mean i think he is good enough - but he offers more imo. He is a much better batsman than he has shown over the last 2 games.

If i was a selector i would have Rashid or Crane over him at this point.
Unlike others i can see why he was selected in the first place. He has been in good form for his county + was 'man of the series' in the North vs South games where he was managed by Farbrace. One day stuff i know, but he impressed the England coaches enough for them to think highly of him.

[Gooseberry]

Personaly I would have had Stoneman in over both.

A second spinner is a luxury ...and Dawsons rubbish. The batting desperately needs a boost so I will always back the decision to give another guy a go. Had he not been injured chances are Ballance would have got another go instead but maybe down the order. Noone is going to convince me that Dawson is a better cricketer than Ballance....even if his struggles have been just as real in this series.

Dawson simply isnt a good enough player in either discipline to be in tests. Hes pushing it in limited overs.

Whether Malan is any better is another question. But hes scored runs against this attack ( or similar) in the warm ups.

[sirfredperry]

171 for four and that's it for the day as the rain returns. Cook on 82. No doubt Vaughan, who had called for more application, will be pleased with that.
   In some ways a good thing there was no more play. A tricky half hour at 7pm could have led to  close score of, say, 190 for six.
   Although this is not a great score, Eng probably did well to only lose four wickets, given the stop-start nature of the play and the help that gives to the bowlers.

[LivinginItaly]

To be honest I am not too displeased with the England position. True 171 - 4 is not yet a strong position, but with batting hopefully being easier on the second day it's still possible to post a score in excess of 400.

[wisden]

Honours even IMO, could have been worse on a pitch that was swinging and seaming, need a good first session tomorrow though

[Gooseberry]

Problem is if battings better tomorrow that suits SA every bit as much as England.

Someone needs to stand up with Cook. Its good to see Stokes has hung around a bit, its exactly the kind of innings he needs more if if hes going to convince as a genuine top 6 bat.
With Bairstow and Moeen to come as well its not a disaster yet.

My depression is mostly saved for the continued failings of new caps. They can keep relying on two batsmen and the all rounders.

[KP_fan]

Saw some highlights of D1 of the game and I think

--The ball was swinging and seaming...wasn't easy to bat, wasn't a definitely "bat first" wicket....although I don't know if pitch would have assisted seamers as much had it been sunny all the time.

--Anderson in these conditions would have been deadly
Cook playing a characteristic inning of character and determination on a pitch where 300 might be a workable total

--Jennings doesn't leave the ball well enough which is an essential trait for an opener.... and in conditions like these likely to get exposed
Hameed had much better test match technique

--Westley looked good to me...he's a tight batsman....plays very close to the body and although uses a bottom hand he is still presenting a very straight bat....
in fact too straight...means that while he can play out a lot of deliveries without giving away his wicket, his scoring strokes will be limited.
He has the makings of a good No.3

--Lastly Maharaj.....saw him first time at some length and he is good.......gives the ball a good rip....high arm with a leap at the point of delivery means release point is high and ,more than normal air to produce loop......and a good arm ball.
Very unlike Jadeja and Dawson that are kinda side arm

[jimbohammers]

Important first half hour. 2 quick wickets for South Africa and they will be well on top

[LivinginItaly]

True 190 for 6 wouldn't be a good position. We need cook and stokes to start carefully and build a good solid platform in order to give stokes, Barstow and Ali more freedom to attack in the afternoon session. However, they sholdnt be too passive at the start as we need to be aware of the damage the new ball might do in 20 overs time. 230 - 4 would be very good position at the taking of the new ball.

[KP_fan]

Eng should aim to get to 300ish anyhow
that would come if Cook holds one end and Stokes / Bairstow/ Ali keep playing their shots

The risk is if the score board stalls...because everyone is trying to play get-set, Eng could well be bundled for 240ish and that's below par even for the seam friendly conditions

[Gooseberry]

Yeah I think 300 is about the best we can hope for, and it could very easily be less.
On the plus side its the kind of conditions thst should suit Anderson and TRJ. If Broad has an on dat then England should be as hard to handle as Philander.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

The Chef goes, LBW Morkel. Almost saved by height on DRS

[LivinginItaly]

Have a feeling that we might see stokes attacking a bit more now that Cook is out. Will be good if at least two out of stokes, Barstow and Ali can counter attack successfully.

[GSC]

Tipping point in the game.

If Stokes, Bairstow and Ali can bat for a while they'll quickly flip momentum. If SA can run through them they'll be well in command.

[LivinginItaly]

excellent 50 for stokes. Also a very important 50 partnership between stokes and Barstow in double quick time. Only hope they can control their aggression and not get too carried away. still a long way off a dominating total.

[KP_fan]

Bairstow gone but he and Stokes batted like I professed they should this morning......playing their strokes and getting runs on the board.

whats seemed maybe possible is now definite.....Eng will cross 300 and with the seam bowling they have, they will have a working total

[VTR]

Bairstow gone but he and Stokes batted like I professed they should this morning......playing their strokes and getting runs on the board.

whats seemed maybe possible is now definite.....Eng will cross 300 and with the seam bowling they have, they will have a working total

Agreed - there's also some patchy weather about, which could see more time lost. Given that, the best chance of a win is the game moving forward, and that includes in my opinion the innings lasting no more than about the 110 overs mark

350 is ideal I think, if SA then rack up 500 and then bowl us out, then we've had a shocker and deserve defeat

[GSC]

Decent morning. SA struck early but pretty wayward after that until the new ball. Valuable runs for England in terms of setting a competitive total.

[eirebilly]

Ali looks out here.

[alfie]

This is a real old fashioned Test Match...

Good fast bowling in helpful conditions early...stubborn batting ...building up some tempo ahead of second new ball...and that missile duly doing further damage ...

If conditions remain unsettled throughout the match (as I understand is quite likely ?) this is edging toward a decent score. Losing Moeen just now was a bit of a blow...

Was Moeen unlucky there ? SA didn't seem too sure about taking the review . There was a noise but was it bat ? Probably...but anyway he's gone and it's up to Stokes and the bowlers : batting doesn't look easy !

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

If we can eek out 320-350 here that will be good - as alfie says, its not easy to bat out there and conditions are meant to be overcast/rainy for the coming days (so much so, a draw may not be out of the equation)

[alfie]

Odd move here from SA with Morris bowling to Stokes with everyone on the boundary !
At 283/7 with a ball thirteen overs old...

May pay off for them but I really hope it doesn't as it seems a dreadfully negative tactic.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Odd move here from SA with Morris bowling to Stokes with everyone on the boundary !
At 283/7 with a ball thirteen overs old...

May pay off for them but I really hope it doesn't as it seems a dreadfully negative tactic.

Especially as Roland-Jones and Broad to come, are not mugs with the bat and both tend to score quickly...

[eirebilly]

Roland-Jones having a bit of a go, 6 down the leg side

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