England vs South Africa - test series thread

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

In the fast paced nature of international cricket, we are just over a week away from the first of four test matches between SA and England - should be a good one.

South Africa have named their squad...missing some big names in Steyn, ABDV - also no Dane Piedt, Stephen Cook either.

South Africa squad: Faf du Plessis (captain), Hashim Amla, Temba Bavuma, Theunis de Bruyn, Quinton de Kock, JP Duminy, Dean Elgar, Heino Kuhn, Keshav Maharaj, Aiden Markram, Morne Morkel, Chris Morris, Duanne Olivier, Andile Phehlukwayo, Vernon Philander, Kagiso Rabada.

Still a very strong team - especially in the seam bowling ranks. Although with Faf missing the first test, the batting is reliant on Amla and De Kock I feel

England have a few injury concerns - particularly Stuart Broad - any thoughts on the SA squad, and potential England one?
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Post by eirebilly on Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:56 pm

Not seen trebs for a long time alfie. Sure he will swan back at some stage Very Happy

Would also like to see Jennings score some runs, I think he is much batter than what he has shown.
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Post by Gooseberry on Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:14 pm

Just caught up on the last two days after being off grid.
Excellent stuff from England, especially Stokes. If he could back these occassional game changing displays with more 50s and 3 fers he really would be a force. He has the talent....not the consistency.

TRJ has given the selectors a real headache when everyones fit

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Post by alfie on Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:27 am

Sort of headache you want , though...

The amount of cricket they play now , you have to expect one or two fast bowlers injured at any one time ...so the more choices available the better.
TRJ indeed has had a great start. What it leads to , we will see. I note the last four England bowlers to kick off with a five wicket haul were :
Peter Such...not many Tests after .
Richard Johnson ...even less.
"Bunny" Onions...would have played more but for injury I suppose.
And Jimmy Anderson ...OK

So it may or may not herald a long and successful career.

I would like Stokes to be a bit more consistent ; but his "good" days are certainly worth waiting for !

How's the weather today , locals ?

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Post by dummy_half on Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:41 am

Bright morning, clouding in later with a chance of some heavy showers late afternoon, but not the persistent rain of yesterday. Should get most of the day unaffected, but might not get the full 105 overs to make up for previous losses.

Agree re Stokes, and to some extent Ali is the same - outstanding on their good days, but a few too many 3/10 performances thrown in.

Have to say I was wrong about TR-J - he may not be all that fast, but he is quick enough to trouble good batsmen. For me the pick was the ball that got Amla - back of a length and seamed away with really good bounce. With regard to the selection issues, worth remembering that Jimmy A isn't going to be around for that much longer.

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Post by alfie on Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:12 pm

Yes I quite liked what I saw of TRJ in the limited over game ; but wasn't sure how he'd go in a five day game ...well answered ! At least in those conditions.
The Amla ball was notable : and it also suggested that he just might be more suited to Australian conditions than I'd have originally expected. Won't get the lateral movement ; but anyone who can elicit serious bounce like that could be handy down here.

Way to go ; but he's put down a marker.

Hope that rain doesn't take too much time out of today. Declaration timing (presumably) will be interesting : what ever Root decides he will be bagged by someone on the Internet Smile

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Post by alfie on Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:29 pm

Jennings got off to a bright start this morning...looked set for fifty but undone by a good lifter from Rabada. It wasn't easy yesterday in the gloom ; and 48 better than nothing ; but jury still out.
93/2 ...imagine England will look to be reasonably circumspect this morning and go on the attack after lunch. Though Root will presumably be busy as usual.
Westley hasn't had much strike so far.

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Post by LionsV2 on Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:13 pm

My first impressions of Jennings was that he wasn't good enough for test cricket despite the century, his technique just doesn't seem to hold up against top class bowling whether it's extra bounce, seam, swing or spin.

Hameed might be going through a dip in form currently but his more classical technique just lends to being able to perform better at test level over a prolonged period of time and hopefully he starts to find some form soon.

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Post by alfie on Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:06 pm

So Maharaj ends a useful innings for Westley .

Fifty on debut : first such for an England number three for a while...

Sure Westley would like to have gone on ; but might not be a bad time for him to get out - let the more aggressive bats get started ; they will want to push on now to get a fair bit of time at SA this evening .

Fifty for Root clap

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Post by alfie on Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:08 pm

...and I guess a slightly difficult thing for Malan on debut following a poor first innings to just blaze away.
But then again it may suit his style of play to treat it like an ODI ?

Off the mark with a nice shot for four thumbsup

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Post by alfie on Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:10 pm

Maharajah gets Root now...

Stokes time.

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Post by eirebilly on Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:37 pm

5 down now. Looks like England will give it a good charge to 450 and a declaration.
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Post by eirebilly on Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:06 pm

Bairstow giving it a good go now thumbsup
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Post by VTR on Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:52 pm

People wonder what exactly Strauss does these days. Clearly he is still involved in setting declaration targets

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:55 pm

VTR wrote:People wonder what exactly Strauss does these days. Clearly he is still involved in setting declaration targets

I'd rather him than Shane bloody Warne who'd have declared about midday and WONT SHUT UP ABOUT IT
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Post by VTR on Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:03 pm

Yeah, well that's clearly garbage from Warne as usual. Set them 350, they won't get that many. Until they do of course. 450 seemed about right to me, we will have to see if it makes any difference or not

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:20 pm

Broad not only well on his way to wasting the new ball with rubbish bowling, he also decides to throw it into th the pitch for no apparent reason when Kuhn hits it back to him. Brainless
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Post by VTR on Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:34 pm

This is as good as over already. Teams don't put up a fight nowadays when faced with adversity. Not good for Test cricket to be honest. This will be the third similar game of the series

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Post by sirfredperry on Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:34 pm

Suddenly, SA are collapsing. Four down now with Stokes on a hat-trick.

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Post by alfie on Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:42 pm

sirfredperry wrote:Suddenly, SA are collapsing. Four down now with Stokes on a hat-trick.

All in the timing , Sir Fred : woke up , switched back on just in time to see Amla go ...and then...

I owe the cat one for jumping on my foot. Smile

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Post by alfie on Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:45 pm

Fine bowling from Stokes : but you'd think du Plessis might have learned from the first innings ! He's supposed to be the great rearguard player...

Extra half hour tonight ?

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Post by KP_fan on Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:44 pm

well the teams are winning and losing by a mile in this series

SA will lose by a Mile unless rain saves them
no justification in a rain affected game with a lot for seam bowlers to set a cushion of nearly 500 runs

SA today made the cardinal sin of trying to play out time......doesn't work even on the best pitches, surely not here....they should have played naturally / positively

Westley confirmed  the observation I made on him...plays really close to his body, straight bat and a good number 3..while he can play out balls, he won't play too many strokes....because of his stance and close to body straight bat style
that's why he averages only  38 in FC cricket.....

Eng are lucky to have a number of bowling all rounders...... Roland Jones latest in the line ...but Woakes is better I think

I don't understand how the DRS upheld FaF dismissal
Ball impact was outside the line and less than half the ball was hitting stumps
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:06 pm

KP_fan wrote:well the teams are winning and losing by a mile in this series

SA will lose by a Mile unless rain saves them
no justification in a rain affected game with a lot for seam bowlers to set a cushion of nearly 500 runs

SA today made the cardinal sin of trying to play out time......doesn't work even on the best pitches, surely not here....they should have played naturally / positively

Westley confirmed  the observation I made on him...plays really close to his body, straight bat and a good number 3..while he can play out balls, he won't play too many strokes....because of his stance and close to body straight bat style
that's why he averages only  38 in FC cricket.....

Eng are lucky to have a  number of bowling all rounders...... Roland Jones latest in the line ...but Woakes is better I think

I don't understand how the DRS upheld FaF dismissal
Ball impact was outside the line and less than half the ball was hitting stumps

The Faf dismissal was upheld because he wasn't playing a shot (so impact doesn't matter by laws of the game), and the ball was hitting some of the stumps, an as this was originally given out it would've needed to be missing completely.

Westley looks solid - I think he looks worth investing in...he's a bit Trott-esque in his ability to play through the legside
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Post by sirfredperry on Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:17 pm

Re Westley: No one should worry about how people make runs, as long as they DO make them. Technique is only really looked at when batsmen fail. There was always talk about how Trescothick did not move his feet, but he was so successful there was no question of his being dropped.
   Strange how sometimes even success is somehow the "wrong" kind of success. Collingwood was all bottom hand, they said. One of the craziest criticisms was of Caddick. He got all his wickets in the second innings rather than in the first, they said. The guy was a matchwinner.

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Post by VTR on Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:45 pm

Westley seems good to me. I don't care if he hardly makes a run if he can bat some time, tire the bowlers then allow the stroke players to come in later, rather than 40-3 in the first twenty overs as has happened way too often for about three years now

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:42 am

Westley has done the right things so far and theres no issue with having a proper test bat in the top3, after a sucession of failed attempts its nice to see one who can last 5 minutes. His scoring rate is fsr better than Hameeds.

Jennings is more problematic. His one half decent score in the series isnt enough to convince anyone he can cut it on English pitches against good new ball seamers.
Malan too hasnt exactly made the best of his limited chance.

So England still have a lot of questions regrding their batting line up.

If Hameed can find confidence again and bring a few scoring shots to his game he should be opening.

In regards to SA "trying to bat out" this is what the press crucified England for not trying to do in the previous test. You cant win when you lose

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Post by KP_fan on Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:25 pm

How is the weather likely to be in the Oval part of London?
are they likely to get full 90 overs in
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Post by alfie on Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:27 pm

Elgar and Bavuma might not have the glamour of some of their teammates ; but they may prove harder to shift today ... Conditions look friendlier for batsmen and England may have to work a bit to break through. As they should ! It's a Test Match : you're supposed to have to battle.
Though the last two matches have seen the losing team fold up rather limply.

I'd have started with Anderson as I think he's usually the most likely to induce an edge from a batsman at the start of a session : Root has decided otherwise and Stokes and Broad are certainly hitting the bat hard - testing out Elgar's injury ?

Might be a bit of shuffling of the attack today: I fancy Moeen to do some damage.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:39 pm

Dawid Malan 5-3-7-2 incoming today lads
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:47 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Dawid Malan 5-3-7-2 incoming today lads

Scores off consecutive wides? Whistle

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Post by VTR on Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:55 pm

TRJ continues his amazing debut! Broken a partnership of 33 overs

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Post by VTR on Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:56 pm

And another!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:57 pm

Announce Roland Jones for prime minister
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Post by VTR on Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:03 pm

That and sports personality of the year

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:10 pm

Moeen!!
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Post by VTR on Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:17 pm

Great catch from Stokes as well. Would have been happy with one wicket this morning, it's flat as. Three and the new all due soon, not sure this is lasting much longer

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Post by alfie on Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:48 pm

Wasn't able to watch much of that session : seems England have done well to prise out three of them ...
Elgar - with a bit of help from Bavuma - has meant that this match isn't rushing to its close like the first two. Well done him clap

But it isn't going to last much longer , you'd think . Will TRJ get ten ? Root giving him first shot after lunch to try - fair enough.

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Post by dummy_half on Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:35 pm

Moeen finishes off the lower order (and Elgar) - hadn't realised it was a hat trick as it came across a break in overs.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:39 pm

First hattrick by an England spinner since Tom Goddard in 1938/9 apparently

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Post by dummy_half on Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:39 pm

Tight for MotM between TR-J and Stokes, as both played a big part in the victory - I'd probably just favour Stokes as his ton in the first innings so strongly shaped what followed, and then his 2 wickets last night settled the game. YMMV

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Post by sirfredperry on Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:47 pm

Well an excellent win for England, albeit in helpful conditions and being able to bat first. 
   But then you never worry after an England thrashing. They seem to bounce back straight away. The problem now is avoiding another 2-2 like last year against Pakistan.
   A fantastic debut from TRJ and a good start for Westley. Stokes had a really good all-round match and Cook was solid when it mattered at the start. One for the stats guys, this Test. The hat-trick and the four golden ducks in the SA second innings.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:48 pm

Id agree that Stokes ton was the trigger for England. They were looking distinctly dodgy till he and Cook settled in.

3 wickets and 4 catches as well. As an all round contribution its pretty solid.

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Post by alfie on Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:00 pm

Fine win ...I presume Stokes MoTM ? (TV here cut off abruptly after the finish )
TRJ wonderful debut but the batting in the first innings in tricky conditions really set this game up for England. Later evidence showed 350 was well over par.
Actually Cook deserves a lot of credit : without his batting on day one I wonder if Stokes could have done what he did later ?
All the bowlers did well - Moeen finishing things in style ! With more help from that man Stokes ( has the home crowd ever been so glad to
see an England bowler not take the last wicket as in Ben's last over ? )
Had a hunch the hat trick would happen...but thank heaven for drs !

On to Old Trafford ...can England avoid the win one , lose one cycle and clinch the series ? I think they can ; provided they don't go silly and try and pick a second spinner or something...doesn't the batting order look better with Bairstow at seven ?

SA might need to change things : but they have a small issue of not possessing a Stokes - type all rounder : Philander and Morris are OK with the bat but you aren't batting them at six. Didn't hurt them at TB , mind...

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:06 pm

Yes Stokes got MotM.

Vital contributions from pretty much every player. (Malan excluded I guess, though Jennings still looks like a dead man walking). With all the radio commentators (and most especially Alec Stewart) praising Bairstow's keeping in this series number 7 may well be looking like his position. Hopefully Westley can nail down the number 3 spot, and perhaps Hameed find some form when CC restarts to at least make a case for the winter.

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Post by sirfredperry on Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:06 pm

Interesting that duP said they were hoping to bat first so that Philander would have more time to recover. In other words, they chose an unfit/unwell player. NOT THE RIGHT CALL.

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Post by dummy_half on Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:08 pm

Overview for England:
Very good performances from Stokes and TR-J
Good performances from Cook (first innings score was vital), Root, YJB, Moeen (with the ball).
Decent from Westley (promising debut), Jimmy A
More needed from Jennings (if he is retained), Malan and Broad.

All in all a pretty good team performance. An interesting match in that the way things played out was so dependent on cloud cover. Don't think either side really got a big advantage from the conditions, more that England batted better in the first innings to fight through the iffy spells. Possibly the one bit of luck England had was Philander being ill, as he would certainly have been a handful on day 1.

I don't think SA can make many changes to their side, but I'd rejig the batting to move Du Plessis to 4, Bavuma to 5 and de Kock down to 6. Morris and Philander at 7 and 8 is not too bad really, just England are over-loaded with batting when you can have Moeen coming in at 8.

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Post by Mat on Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:59 pm

Moeen must be in and around leading wicket taker for the series now.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:08 pm

I think its moeens best series with the ball since his debut summer against India.
As usual with him its concided with his batting being quiet.

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Post by dummy_half on Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:34 pm

My count is that Moeen has taken 18 wickets for 265 runs this series so far, so averaging 14.7.
He's contributed one meaningful score with the bat (87 in T1 first innings), with a few other starts - averaging 27 over 6 innings to date, which would be good for a normal #8, but is under-achieving for Ali.

Haven't checked, but suspect 18 wickets is at least England's leader. Not bad for a second spinner...

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Post by VTR on Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:56 pm

That's a good win with most players contributing at least something. Only really Malan who didn't do anything. Jennings was dodgy but pretty much a 50 second innings is something. Agree with comments above the whole look of the side is stronger with Bairstow at 7

I don't think England were lucky that Philander was ill - SA picked a half-fit player and paid the price. That's not luck, it's incredibly poor selection from the opposition

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England vs South Africa - test series thread - Page 12 Empty Re: England vs South Africa - test series thread

Post by dummy_half on Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:12 pm

VTR
It's luck from England's perspective (a bit like when McGrath trod on the ball in the 2005 Ashes), but wilfully bad management by the Saffers to select an unwell player, especially as it turned out that it was quite a serious illness and not just a 24 hour bug.

Anyway, England will likely now go into the final test unchanged - I think Jennings did just about enough to get one more game and it would be incredibly harsh to drop Malan after one match even if there were some questions raised about his technique - he was unlucky to get a n absolute beauty in the first innings and then in the second was out while trying to push the game on. Has plenty to prove, but should get another go (although I've seen suggestions elsewhere of Hales coming in as a middle order player, following a T20 hundred last night...).

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