NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 1 July

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NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS  
1 July 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
WESTPAC Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington

Live on Sky Sports HD

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
ARs: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

39 Played 39
30 Won 6
3 Drawn 3
6 Lost 30
664 Points 360

B. Recent Form

24 June 2017
Eden Park, Auckland
30 – 15 to New Zealand

9 July 2005 
Eden Park, Auckland 
38 – 19 to New Zealand 

2 July 2005 
Westpac Stadium, Wellington 
48 – 18 to New Zealand

25 June 2005 
Lancaster Park, Christchurch 
21 – 3 to New Zealand

3 July 1993 
Eden Park, Auckland 
30 – 13 to New Zealand 

26 June 1993 
Athletic Park, Wellington 
7 – 20 to British & Irish Lions

12 June 1993 
Lancaster Park, Christchurch 
20 – 18 to New Zealand

16 July 1983 
Eden Park, Auckland 
38 – 6 to New Zealand

2 July 1983 
Carisbrook, Dunedin 
15 – 8 to New Zealand

18 June 1983 
Athletic Park (Wellington), Wellington 
9 – 0 to New Zealand

4 June 1983 
Lancaster Park, Christchurch 
16 – 12 to New Zealand

C. TEAMS:

NEW ZEALAND

[tbc]

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS  

[tbc]

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Can we please move on from AWJ chat?

Would be good. How about a head to head comparison. Are any Lions better than their direct opponent?

From the squads selected  - 14 ABs plus Liam Williams at FB to start

Would Faletau and Te'o at least make the bench ? They have not been to shabby on tour.

Got distracted by work before I got to the bench. But yep I'd have them both, plus George, Sinckler, Mako, one of Lawes/Itoje & Cruden

I'd be happy with either of Webb/Perenara on the bench - both snipe better around the fringes than CM, for me if he doesn't start ...

Kingshu wrote:Seán O'Brien ahead of Cane

After Cane owned the breakdown last week? Would depend on tactics

Kingshu wrote:Seán O'Brien ahead of Cane

Amazing. Did you miss the first test?

Kingshu wrote: Murray ahead of Smith

Murray has a better box kick, Smith a much better passing game. Tactical decision there

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Kingshu wrote: Murray ahead of Smith

Murray has a better box kick, Smith a much better passing game. Tactical decision there

Perenara is probably the best of the three at the moment anyway, but Smith was good last week.

Scottrf wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Kingshu wrote: Murray ahead of Smith

Murray has a better box kick, Smith a much better passing game. Tactical decision there

Perenara is probably the best of the three at the moment anyway, but Smith was good last week.

True - I think Perenara benching is more around style & stage-of-game. He's got more of a running game than Smith

Scottrf wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Seán O'Brien ahead of Cane

Amazing. Did you miss the first test?

The Lions pack was pretty much dominated 1-8 in the last test. However, SOB has a good record of getting the better of his opposite number against NZ (although didnt play in Chicago). Cane won the battle last week but SOB is probably a better player.

McCaw said in a recent interview that SOB was the guy that he measured himself against the most in the latter part of his career and Sean Fitzpatrick said that he wished SOB played for the ABs

Scottrf wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Kingshu wrote: Murray ahead of Smith

Murray has a better box kick, Smith a much better passing game. Tactical decision there

Perenara is probably the best of the three at the moment anyway, but Smith was good last week.

Smith always looks good when the AB pack is rumbling and he gets quick ball because he has a great pass. In games like the last few against Ireland where the ABs pack has been dominated he doesnt look as good at all.

Both fair comments, and hard to pick player vs player in isolation.

Wow, I'm surprised the Lions didn't smash NZ last week, given that all these Irish players are better than their counterparts!

Maybe Ireland would have smashed the ABs

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Maybe Ireland would have smashed the ABs

Nah Crockett was in the 23. He's on a 45 test unbeaten streak (he missed Chicago)

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The Lions pack was pretty much dominated 1-8 in the last test. However, SOB has a good record of getting the better of his opposite number against NZ (although didnt play in Chicago). Cane won the battle last week but SOB is probably a better player.

McCaw said in a recent interview that SOB was the guy that he measured himself against the most in the latter part of his career and Sean Fitzpatrick said that he wished SOB played for the ABs

I don't rate him as highly as the Irish do. I have always thought when Ireland have played Wales, which is when I have seen him mostly admittedly he has always been found wanting. He has always been bested by the Welsh back row players in the 6N.

The only surprise in the Lions selection is that Bryn Gatland isn't in it.

The Great Aukster wrote:The only surprise in the Lions selection is that Bryn Gatland isn't in it.

Well, they've managed to find room for one of the coaches sons, so why not ?

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Maybe Ireland would have smashed the ABs

Nah Crockett was in the 23. He's on a 45 test unbeaten streak (he missed Chicago)

I heard that alright. Maro Itoje has only lost one international match that he has started and he is starting on Saturday. Just saying.

LordDowlais wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The Lions pack was pretty much dominated 1-8 in the last test. However, SOB has a good record of getting the better of his opposite number against NZ (although didnt play in Chicago). Cane won the battle last week but SOB is probably a better player.

McCaw said in a recent interview that SOB was the guy that he measured himself against the most in the latter part of his career and Sean Fitzpatrick said that he wished SOB played for the ABs

I don't rate him. I have always thought when Ireland have played Wales, which is when I have seen him mostly admittedly he has always been found wanting. He has always been bested by the Welsh back row players in the 6N.

Wales have Ireland's number at the moment thats why. Last 10 games, Wales 6 wins, Ireland 3 one draw. it is one of the great anomalies in world rugby.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Maybe Ireland would have smashed the ABs

Nah Crockett was in the 23. He's on a 45 test unbeaten streak (he missed Chicago)

Just checked that up. Now admittedly 35 bench caps, but from a total of 60 caps Crockett has lost just one (v England in 2012). Amazing.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Seán O'Brien ahead of Cane

Amazing. Did you miss the first test?

The Lions pack was pretty much dominated 1-8 in the last test. However, SOB has a good record of getting the better of his opposite number against NZ (although didnt play in Chicago). Cane won the battle last week but SOB is probably a better player.

McCaw said in a recent interview that SOB was the guy that he measured himself against the most in the latter part of his career and Sean Fitzpatrick said that he wished SOB played for the ABs

I'm not sure SOB is quite the player he was - injuries seem to have an impact. But at his very best he was excellent. And he did some things very well on Saturday too - just a very different style to Cane.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Wales have Ireland's number at the moment thats why. Last 10 games, Wales 6 wins, Ireland 3 one draw. it is one of the great anomalies in world rugby.

Hi Guns, please see my edited post. I do not think hew is a bad player, infact he is a very good player, I just do not think he is as good as made out by the Irish.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Maybe Ireland would have smashed the ABs

Nah Crockett was in the 23. He's on a 45 test unbeaten streak (he missed Chicago)

I heard that alright. Maro Itoje has only lost one international match that he has started and he is starting on Saturday. Just saying.

Something's gotta give all right

Kingshu wrote:Alun Wyn Jones would be ahead of Whitelock in Gatland's eyes.

As a result of this .. I viewed the below as being similar thoughts

Kingshu wrote:Seán O'Brien ahead of Cane

Kingshu wrote: Murray ahead of Smith

LordDowlais wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The Lions pack was pretty much dominated 1-8 in the last test. However, SOB has a good record of getting the better of his opposite number against NZ (although didnt play in Chicago). Cane won the battle last week but SOB is probably a better player.

McCaw said in a recent interview that SOB was the guy that he measured himself against the most in the latter part of his career and Sean Fitzpatrick said that he wished SOB played for the ABs

I don't rate him as highly as the Irish do. I have always thought when Ireland have played Wales, which is when I have seen him mostly admittedly he has always been found wanting. He has always been bested by the Welsh back row players in the 6N.

Any chance those amazing Wales players might want to do something on Saturday

BamBam wrote:Any chance those amazing Wales players might want to do something on Saturday

I hope so.

Cyril wrote:Wow, I'm surprised the Lions didn't smash NZ last week, given that all these Irish players are better than their counterparts!

Unfortunately the selected Welsh players dragged us down.

SOB is one of the very few players the Kiwis even talk about

To be honest most Lions are irrelevant to them.
I suspect other than him, Itoje and Murray no other player would be considered of much value in terms of Kiwi squad selection

LordDowlais wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The Lions pack was pretty much dominated 1-8 in the last test. However, SOB has a good record of getting the better of his opposite number against NZ (although didnt play in Chicago). Cane won the battle last week but SOB is probably a better player.

McCaw said in a recent interview that SOB was the guy that he measured himself against the most in the latter part of his career and Sean Fitzpatrick said that he wished SOB played for the ABs

I don't rate him as highly as the Irish do.

I'm pretty sure McCaw and Fitzpatrick are Kiwis.

geoff999rugby wrote:SOB is one of the very few players the Kiwis even talk about

To be honest most Lions are irrelevant to them.
I suspect other than him, Itoje and Murray no other player would be considered of much value in terms of Kiwi squad selection

Ask them about Liam Williams.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Cyril wrote:Wow, I'm surprised the Lions didn't smash NZ last week, given that all these Irish players are better than their counterparts!

Unfortunately the selected Welsh players dragged us down.

Even the two that put an Irishman over for one of the best tries in years ?

Cyril wrote:Wow, I'm surprised the Lions didn't smash NZ last week, given that all these Irish players are better than their counterparts!

Well they would have done if Daley could finish tries Kruis could catch a ball and Teo could work a three man overlap

Williams - Under the high ball they would be delighted

One absolutely brilliant piece of play and one awful one - not the Kiwi way.

Decent wholehearted player, and good player to have on your side, but lets be honest no within a country mile of Ben Smith

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Cyril wrote:Wow, I'm surprised the Lions didn't smash NZ last week, given that all these Irish players are better than their counterparts!

Unfortunately the selected Welsh players dragged us down.

Even the two that put an Irishman over for one of the best tries in years ?

Williams and Davies were superb. Williams reached the next level in attack.

I love how when he picked up the ball it looks like Kieran Read was about to steamroll him but Williams absolutely schooled him for footwork. Read's body language said it all.

True though Rodders can improve a lot under the high ball.

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon even you as a blinkered Welsh fan surely can't defend the selection of AWJ.

I wouldn't have dropped Kruis but he played poorly and suffered as a consequence. AWJ played poorly and has been retained. Ridiculous.

BS I see you're living up to your name with your recent comments about me. As I've been saying I rate Kruis and would not have dropped him. I would have culled AWJ for Lawes or Henderson.

beshocked wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon even you as a blinkered Welsh fan surely can't defend the selection of AWJ.

But I don't think he has tried to to be fair?

Based on his last comment talking about the test team I thought he was supporting the selection of AWJ.


"That chat on here has been based on picking on tour form. The test team is picked on form, as it's a lot different to what most of us expected at the beginning. I'm just addressing the hypocrisy like I said and you all keep attacking me for that."


Not sure how anyone can think AWJ is the form pick though.

The team is picked on form for the most part. The predicted team before the tour looks quite different to the team that played against the Crusaders, the Maori, and NZ. Recent form has forced some of those. AWJ has shown erratic form but he was good in some matches which just the English won't admit. Farrell hasn't been great and I wasn't too sure if he'd make the test team as fly-half so that's another one you could argue against.

geoff999rugby wrote:Williams - Under the high ball they would be delighted

One absolutely brilliant piece of play and one awful one - not the Kiwi way.

Decent wholehearted player, and good player to have on your side, but lets be honest no within a country mile of Ben Smith

Of course with Ben Smith crocked, we are comparing Williams with a half fit Dagg.

Scottrf wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Another example right here, reminds me of you all pretending Kruis was better than AWJ 55 minutes in the first test when all evidence points to the contrary.

As I said, both Biggar and Lawes have looked good against weaker opposition. Both are worthy of their place in the test 23.

But again Kruis has shown consistent form since coming back from injury. There's more evidence he can come good, it's one bad game. Not many people have argued with Kruis being dropped either.

I wouldn't disagree heavily with Biggar making the 23. I was one of the few who could see why he was picked to tour. But his form is hardly much better than the other options.

What posters took issue with was the lopsided reporting and lies. I wouldn't have dropped Kruis as he wouldn't have become a bad player overnight.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

True though Rodders can improve a lot under the high ball.

How dare you, I'm as solid under a high ball as they come.

geoff999rugby wrote:Williams - Under the high ball they would be delighted

One absolutely brilliant piece of play and one awful one - not the Kiwi way.

Decent wholehearted player, and good player to have on your side, but lets be honest no within a country mile of Ben Smith

Ulster fans have never liked Williams, we know why .

It's a strange one, as one of Williams's strengths was catching sky high kicks. He seems to be lacking a bit in confidence in that dept. at the minute.

Sure Mikey I always write

'Decent wholehearted player, and good player to have on your side'

about players I don't like

mikey_dragon wrote:

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon even you as a blinkered Welsh fan surely can't defend the selection of AWJ.

I wouldn't have dropped Kruis but he played poorly and suffered as a consequence. AWJ played poorly and has been retained. Ridiculous.

BS I see you're living up to your name with your recent comments about me. As I've been saying I rate Kruis and would not have dropped him. I would have culled AWJ for Lawes or Henderson.

beshocked wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon even you as a blinkered Welsh fan surely can't defend the selection of AWJ.

But I don't think he has tried to to be fair?

Based on his last comment talking about the test team I thought he was supporting the selection of AWJ.


"That chat on here has been based on picking on tour form. The test team is picked on form, as it's a lot different to what most of us expected at the beginning. I'm just addressing the hypocrisy like I said and you all keep attacking me for that."


Not sure how anyone can think AWJ is the form pick though.

The team is picked on form for the most part. The predicted team before the tour looks quite different to the team that played against the Crusaders, the Maori, and NZ. Recent form has forced some of those. AWJ has shown erratic form but he was good in some matches which just the English won't admit. Farrell hasn't been great and I wasn't too sure if he'd make the test team as fly-half so that's another one you could argue against.

Saying you would drop AWJ would be sufficient. Well there's not much justification for picking AWJ,

To be honest if Farrell wasn't dropped I wouldn't be upset. He hasn't played well enough.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Except that the question was based on what he did which impressed you and why you felt he examples I gave of his underperformance weren't important to you. In that first post so long ago I even said don't just give a sound bite of he got the backs moving. Yet here we are. You can't back up your own opinion with any actual examples and so we'll  move.

Opinions ah, it appears they could be subjective after all!

Yet if you're asked why you think something most people could actually explain.

Given the approach this time appears to be to target/flood the breakdown, surprised Best & Cole aren't in the 23 for their general nuisance value.
George & Furlong have had minimal impact in the scrum and the latter's work rate is not as high in the tackle area.
Best's arrows would though be a concern I guess.

Predictably Gatland's tactics are bring driven by the Nz performance rather than the Lions setting the agenda.

kingelderfield wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Except that the question was based on what he did which impressed you and why you felt he examples I gave of his underperformance weren't important to you. In that first post so long ago I even said don't just give a sound bite of he got the backs moving. Yet here we are. You can't back up your own opinion with any actual examples and so we'll  move.

Opinions ah, it appears they could be subjective after all!

In fairness to Biggar, whilst he's been up against easier opposition, he's also had to stand outside Laidlaw. And Laidlaw's a lot better at pointing & shouting than clearing a ruck. Anyone who can not look terrible outside of Laidlaw has a bit of talent

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Cyril wrote:Wow, I'm surprised the Lions didn't smash NZ last week, given that all these Irish players are better than their counterparts!

Unfortunately the selected Welsh players dragged us down.

Even the two that put an Irishman over for one of the best tries in years ?

Williams and Davies were superb. Williams reached the next level in attack.

I love how when he picked up the ball it looks like Kieran Read was about to steamroll him but Williams absolutely schooled him for footwork. Read's body language said it all.

True though Rodders can improve a lot under the high ball.

Players generally improve under the current Saracens management.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Except that the question was based on what he did which impressed you and why you felt he examples I gave of his underperformance weren't important to you. In that first post so long ago I even said don't just give a sound bite of he got the backs moving. Yet here we are. You can't back up your own opinion with any actual examples and so we'll  move.

Opinions ah, it appears they could be subjective after all!

In fairness to Biggar, whilst he's been up against easier opposition, he's also had to stand outside Laidlaw. And Laidlaw's a lot better at pointing & shouting than clearing a ruck. Anyone who can not look terrible outside of Laidlaw has a bit of talent

Ouch

I would say Laidlaw has actually played quite well

Not for the test side, but certainly has been a reasonably good player

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yet if you're asked why you think something most people could actually explain.

Generally that is the case, however when individuals exhibit a psychopathology akin to predatory stalking..........you get me.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Except that the question was based on what he did which impressed you and why you felt he examples I gave of his underperformance weren't important to you. In that first post so long ago I even said don't just give a sound bite of he got the backs moving. Yet here we are. You can't back up your own opinion with any actual examples and so we'll  move.

Opinions ah, it appears they could be subjective after all!

In fairness to Biggar, whilst he's been up against easier opposition, he's also had to stand outside Laidlaw. And Laidlaw's a lot better at pointing & shouting than clearing a ruck. Anyone who can not look terrible outside of Laidlaw has a bit of talent

Good call.......he drives me nuts when I watch Gloucester play. His selection did surprise me.

Yes asking questions on a forum gets to some people king.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes asking questions on a forum gets to some people   king.

Yes but as we both know there's a bit more to it than that.