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66 minutes

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 9:15 pm

66 minutes.

That is the amount of test match minutes Scotland has contributed to the Lions test matches in 4 tours

-2005-

3rd (dead rubber) test
Gordon Bulloch 10 minutes

from the bench

-2009-

3rd (dead rubber) test
Ross Ford 43 minutes from the

bench

-2013-
3rd test
Richie Gray 13 minutes from the
bench

-2017-
No test involvement

People honestly wonder why we struggle to get behind the team?
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by marty2086 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 9:22 pm

If you could produce some Welshmen you'd be getting more game time

Run

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Griff on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 9:37 pm

Out of interest, why have you chosen just the last 4 tours? Did choosing 'last 5' or 'last 6' mess your figures up too much for your argument?!

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Exiledinborders on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 9:43 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
66 minutes.

That is the amount of test match minutes Scotland has contributed to the Lions test matches in 4 tours
It's about time you pulled your fingers out and lent a hand then. Wink

Seriously, without Nel and Hogg who would make the twenty three? The two Scots who might have played have been injured so I am not sure what you want.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 9:47 pm

For the record Tom Smith played in 2 of the tests against Australia in 2001.

Of course Townsend and Tait were instrumental in beating  South Africa in '97.

Then there was big Gav who was the last Lions captain to win on NZ soil, and of course Finlay Calder in  '89.

I could go further back, but what's the point Griff? That doesn't change the fact that we count for nothing in the Lions as it stands. The glories of the past long forgotten and the good players we have today not considered (Gray, Watson, Taylor, Russell).

Some all blacks have Scottish grand parents, that's the closest tenuous link we have to the match on Saturday... Good luck.
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by David-Douglas on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 9:49 pm

Quite surprised Gatland didn't pick Huw Jones. I know he's injured, but with a name like that.....

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Cyril on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 9:51 pm

Alex Cuthbert has more Lions Test time than the whole of Scotland for the past 12 years.

That's one to ponder.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by chris_501 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 9:55 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:66 minutes.

That is the amount of test match minutes Scotland has contributed to the Lions test matches in 4 tours

-2005-

3rd (dead rubber) test
Gordon Bulloch 10 minutes

from the bench

-2009-

3rd (dead rubber) test
Ross Ford 43 minutes from the

bench

-2013-
3rd test
Richie Gray 13 minutes from the
bench

-2017-
No test involvement

People honestly wonder why we struggle to get behind the team?

How many Grand Slams or 6 Nations Championships in that time?

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 10:01 pm

chris_501 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:66 minutes.

That is the amount of test match minutes Scotland has contributed to the Lions test matches in 4 tours

-2005-

3rd (dead rubber) test
Gordon Bulloch 10 minutes

from the bench

-2009-

3rd (dead rubber) test
Ross Ford 43 minutes from the

bench

-2013-
3rd test
Richie Gray 13 minutes from the
bench

-2017-
No test involvement

People honestly wonder why we struggle to get behind the team?

How many Grand Slams or 6 Nations Championships in that time?

Pleeeeease....

It's been 2 years since Wales or Ireland won a 6N or a grand Slam, and only 2 years since England got humiliated at their own World Cup.

Scotland have won as much as Wales or Ireland over the last 2 years if that's what your benchmark is!!!
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by fa0019 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 10:08 pm

2 sides to this.

Its an obvious bias no doubt. Scotland are higher ranked than Wales, played better in the 6N and yet Wales will had out 18 test caps this series. Maybe we can say Wales were in a mini trough post 2016 summer tour and still had better players individually. However 18 tests caps to 0. Its just a bit pathetic really.
Nevertheless lets be frank, Scotland's players have been a poor fourth in terms of their players throughout the last 8 years... but that doesn't mean they aren't good individually.

Question - does having a national coach on selection help? Yes but their are exceptions and I think Geechs is one of those exceptions and no not just because he's Scottish (well Scottish Yorkshire). In 93 he played 11 from ENG, 1 from SCO, 1 from IRE and 2 from WAL.

In fact these are the caps stats since 09 (when Gatland was involved too) (inc. the starting XV from this forthcoming test but no subs yet).

71 test caps to Welsh players
2  test caps to Scottish players
49 test caps to Irish players
59 test caps to English players

During this time England, Ireland and Wales have all won 3 6N titles each. Neither have performed seriously well in RWCs (although we could argue Wales got to the SF in 2011, albeit without beating a SH team). He even chose the worst attacking coach in the business... from his home team who is the most obvious "smithers" in world rugby today. I bet he's never said no to Warren in his life... "yes boss, good idea boss". Edwards speaks his mind and if anything I imagine he lays into Warren half the time. No surprise he only toured once.

In terms of teams success vs. 3N sides since Gatland took over Wales.

3 wins in 35 for Wales (all 3 at home)
4 wins in 17 for Scotland (2 home, 2 away)
7 wins in 24 for Ireland (4 home, 3 away)
10 wins in 32 for England (6 home, 4 away)

So what can we say from that. They have better players but get worse results.... I don't think Warren would want to say that as that would mean its his strategy which is rubbish. Not what a coach would want to admit. So if it isn't the strategy or his team... then all that suggests is that his players aren't as good as he believes... at least vs. say England and Ireland who Gatland has capped significantly fewer too.

Its pretty obvious the bias and hell Scotland have a superior backrow today. That isn't even a debate. Their backrow at the moment is one of the best in the business.. Smashed Wales, Smashed Ireland, Smashed AUS.... all in the backrow. Yet Wales took 4 backrow players on tour.

However in defence of Gatland....

He has a style, He likes particular types of players. He knows his welsh players better than others. Knows their flaws... he doesn't know the Scottish players. He may know welsh player X is having a tough time with a newborn baby for instance and factoring that in for a reason why his form is off... for the rest all he knows is their form is off.

When you are under pressure you go back to basics, you go back to your front jumper, your crash, your kick for territory... you go back to players who've been to battle with you before. Its not conscious bias its instinct.

Scotland haven't produced enough on the pitch consistently to smash the door down and demand touring numbers. 1 season doesn't make a good player, doesn't make a bad player.... 7 seasons of disappointment... yeah you could say it makes an inferior player/team.

and then there are combinations. Sexton and Murray play together regularly. That matters. Players get selected in waves especially on lions tours when natural orders and 6th senses between players are vital... but ones that rarely come between players from differing national teams.

In essence, the bias is obviously there, the reasons for it... I'd say its a little bit innocent, a little bit intentional but Scotland needs to get more results... not just the odd win here and there.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Griff on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 10:15 pm

Cyril wrote:Alex Cuthbert has more Lions Test time than the whole of Scotland for the past 12 years.

That's one to ponder.


Alex Cuthbert has got a better try 6 nations scoring rate than Hogg (8 tries in 20 matches vs 10 tries in 29 matches). How do you like THEM apples! One to ponder!

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by fa0019 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 10:17 pm

Griff wrote:
Cyril wrote:Alex Cuthbert has more Lions Test time than the whole of Scotland for the past 12 years.

That's one to ponder.


Alex Cuthbert has got a better try 6 nations scoring rate than Hogg (8 tries in 20 matches vs  10 tries in 29 matches). How do you like THEM apples! One to ponder!

Who was a better no8... Andy Powell or Sergio Parisse?

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Griff on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 10:19 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Griff wrote:
Cyril wrote:Alex Cuthbert has more Lions Test time than the whole of Scotland for the past 12 years.

That's one to ponder.


Alex Cuthbert has got a better try 6 nations scoring rate than Hogg (8 tries in 20 matches vs  10 tries in 29 matches). How do you like THEM apples! One to ponder!

Who was a better no8... Andy Powell or Sergio Parisse?

Andy Powell. Without question.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 10:20 pm

Team stats men very little hen considering individuals. Still next lions I'd like a coach not attached to one of the home nations.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by fa0019 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 10:27 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Team stats men very little hen considering individuals. Still next lions I'd like a coach not attached to one of the home nations.

Thats true... but if you have better players but get worse results there are only 2 outcomes. Either it is.

Your strategy is the problem
Or your players aren't as good as you think.

During Gatlands reign hes capped significantly more Welsh players than Ireland for instance yet Ireland have near an identical head to head, identical 6N record but a superior record vs. the 3N. 22 extra caps in 3 tours.

Scotland for instance took Wales and Ireland to pieces in the ruck area in this years 6N. Yet Scotland took 0 backrow players. Wales took 4, I mean Gatland even took his bench. They even tore AUS at home a new one in the ruck. They have a very strong unit.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by fa0019 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 10:29 pm

Griff wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Griff wrote:
Cyril wrote:Alex Cuthbert has more Lions Test time than the whole of Scotland for the past 12 years.

That's one to ponder.


Alex Cuthbert has got a better try 6 nations scoring rate than Hogg (8 tries in 20 matches vs  10 tries in 29 matches). How do you like THEM apples! One to ponder!

Who was a better no8... Andy Powell or Sergio Parisse?

Andy Powell. Without question.

"That's the spirit, George. If nothing else works, then a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."


Very Happy

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 10:37 pm

I agree fa. Gatland gas bias and admitted he wouldn't pick other nations players if it were a close call.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by fa0019 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 10:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I agree fa. Gatland gas bias and admitted he wouldn't pick other nations players if it were a close call.

It even goes further.  When he goes back to Wales how can he look certain players in the eye?

"Boss, 6 months ago you told us all you wouldn't chose a single on of their players pre match... come the lions you chose 6 of them and only 4 of us".

That was the downfall of Graham Henry in 2001. He barely lasted a year after that.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 10:53 pm

Stats keep piling up, first time in a century a Scottish player hasn't been named in a Lions test match.
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by BigGee on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 11:02 pm

This whole tour has made it very easy for Scottish fans to become completely indifferent to how the English, Welsh and Irish Lions are getting on.

I am not even planning to watch the match, though I won't go as far as supporting the ABs. The anti Scottish bias just seems to me to be totally institutionalised now and I find it hard to believe I can ever get excited about the Lions concept again and I have followed it since 1977 and have read the accounts of the tours before that. If this turned out to be the last ever tour though, the way I feel about it at the moment, I could not care less.

Hard to imagine that I will ever be enthused about it again.

Good luck to the Lions on Saturday, but in losing the support of one of its constituents parts. Polls suggesting that 2/3 of Scots fans are either indifferent or want the ABs to win. It is probably fair to say that they don't represent Scottish rugby any more and have not done so for some time.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by fa0019 on Wed 05 Jul 2017, 11:21 pm

BigGee wrote:This whole tour has made it very easy for Scottish fans to become completely indifferent to how the English, Welsh and Irish Lions are getting on.

I am not even planning to watch the match, though I won't go as far as supporting the ABs. The anti Scottish bias just seems to me to be totally institutionalised now and I find it hard to believe I can ever get excited about the Lions concept again and I have followed it since 1977 and have read the accounts of the tours before that. If this turned out to be the last ever tour though, the way I feel about it at the moment, I could not care less.

Hard to imagine that I will ever be enthused about it again.

Good luck to the Lions on Saturday, but in losing the support of one of its constituents parts. Polls suggesting that 2/3 of Scots fans are either indifferent or want the ABs to win. It is probably fair to say that they don't represent Scottish rugby any more and have not done so for some time.

Kind of sad but thats the way it now is. Did it matter in 1993 when Scotland only took 1 player in the tests vs 11 Englishmen?

When I was growing up, the lions was playing for your country. We sang GSTQ, even England flew the union jack at all sporting events... and I'd say Euro96 was probably the first time the st georges cross came out en masse. For Ireland it was obviously more complicated.

In the end its a bit like the Olympics.... I don't support team GB only if we have enough players involved but I appreciate that over the last few decades the 4 nations have become significantly less identified as British and more identified as Welsh, N.Irish, Scottish, English.

It is tricky to not take it personally and in the past the bad teams (such as Wales during the RL exodus, ENG during the 80s) were always able to get a nice representation from the "well rounded" squads where jokers like Richard Wallace, Peter Wright would get in over better players... McGeechan even said so in 97 when he insisted that time, in the pro era he'd only agree if he could pick his own players, irrespective of where they came from. Will Carling was even made vice captain in 93 and even made the first test.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Gwlad on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 3:26 am

Oh will you Scots stop whinging, its worse than Culloden.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by BigGee on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 7:08 am

The Lions, the party to which the Scottish are not invited.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40497672



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Re: 66 minutes

Post by R!skysports on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 7:16 am

sadly you are alone

This tour has been such an anti climax but was half expected when gatland was chosen

For me it is on par with 2005 so far and even a win will only move it to. At least it is was not as bad as 2005

One of the most annoying aspects have been the moral superiority of some fans stating how they would react if they had no one on tour. We all know that is bs. They would be exactly the same

First lion match I will miss for years )away) and to be honest could not care less about it

Such a shame the cconcept has been so damaged over r cent years

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 7:45 am

Gwlad wrote:Oh will you Scots stop whinging, its worse than Culloden.

Culloden was a protestant and catholic battle you ignorant fool.
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by eirebilly on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 7:49 am

Was it really such a surprise that Gatland picked so many Welsh? He is their national coach and knows them far better than any of the other nations players so I certainly understand this.

I do feel that the Scottish are under-represented this tour though, not so much in the last tours but certainly in this one as they were a very form side playing some very good rugby.
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by R!skysports on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 8:02 am

Not a surprise

And not a surprise he picked out of form and injured players

Not a surprise he has one poor plan and no plan b

Not a surprise that the style has been boring and limited

Only surprise we won a match but even that was a terrible performance against 14 men

I am a little over the lions just now

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by cascough on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 8:06 am

I keep saying it, and it must sound boring, but then others keep saying the opposite.

But if you support the Lions as simply an extension of your own nation, then I can't see why exclusion would irk you that much.


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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Scarpia on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 8:18 am

fa0019 wrote: When he goes back to Wales how can he look certain players in the eye?

"Boss, 6 months ago you told us all you wouldn't chose a single on of their players pre match... come the lions you chose 6 of them and only 4 of us".

That was the downfall of Graham Henry in 2001. He barely lasted a year after that.

Exactly the same as happened to Gatland after Australia 2013.

Oh! Wait a minute.................................

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 8:21 am

And the reason that current bosses shouldn't be chosen. Too easy to point to players being picked on bias.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by eirebilly on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 8:40 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the reason that current bosses shouldn't be chosen. Too easy to point to players being picked on bias.

Have to agree with this, the Lions coach should never be a coach affiliated with any of the home nations teams. If this happens, the next debate we can all complain about is that the new coach is out of touch with the home nations rugby or he simply just does not like one (or two) countries Very Happy
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by chris_501 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 8:44 am

I can understand where the Scottish fans are coming from, not having a player from their national team involved in these tests must take the attraction of watching away a little.

However, if I was a Scottish player who was on the fringes, young enough for SA in 4 years, I would be saying 'right, let's play so well, gain so much success in the next 4 years that there isn't any debate on our selection in the test team'. I suspect that had Hogg played well and not been injured, he'd be nailed on at 15 and nobody would have argued that selection.

4 years of Hogg like performances will lead to lots of test caps in SA.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Scottrf on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 8:47 am

Indeed. If they can keep up the lofty heights of 4th/6, then they will force selection.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by eirebilly on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 8:50 am

Scottrf wrote:Indeed. If they can keep up the lofty heights of 4th/6, then they will force selection.

Its not always about the team results in the 6N or AI's though is it. Some players are simply excellent players in poor teams (Parisse for Italy) who deserve to be selected in a Lions squad.

Scotland had a couple of players this year that could quite easily have been selected to tour that were overlooked...
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Scottrf on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 8:53 am

I know, I was only messing about.

We've been through this before, but yes they lost all of the close calls.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by chris_501 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 8:57 am

What I was trying to get at is a poor player will blame coaches for non-selection and moan. A great player will take the disappointment as fuel to improve as a player.

That may be Scottish players who failed to make the tour, it may be a player like Biggar who wants a test shirt next time round.


Last edited by chris_501 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 8:59 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Scottrf on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 8:58 am

chris_501 wrote:What I was trying to get at is a poor player will blame coaches for non-selection and moan. A great player will take the disappointment as fuel to improve as a player.
A poor player will get a start at lock.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by chris_501 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:02 am

Scottrf wrote:
chris_501 wrote:What I was trying to get at is a poor player will blame coaches for non-selection and moan. A great player will take the disappointment as fuel to improve as a player.
A poor player will get a start at lock.

I wouldn't call Itoje poor, maybe just a bit 'green'....

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Scottrf on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:06 am

chris_501 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
chris_501 wrote:What I was trying to get at is a poor player will blame coaches for non-selection and moan. A great player will take the disappointment as fuel to improve as a player.
A poor player will get a start at lock.

I wouldn't call Itoje poor, maybe just a bit 'green'....
So that narrows down your search.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:18 am

Scottrf wrote:Indeed. If they can keep up the lofty heights of 4th/6, then they will force selection.

England came 4th in the 6 nations in 2005 and Woodward deemed it fit to select an English majority of players. Wales came 5th this year and also have a large contingent. Scotland have been shafted IMO.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Griff on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:23 am

fa0019 wrote:
BigGee wrote:This whole tour has made it very easy for Scottish fans to become completely indifferent to how the English, Welsh and Irish Lions are getting on.

I am not even planning to watch the match, though I won't go as far as supporting the ABs. The anti Scottish bias just seems to me to be totally institutionalised now and I find it hard to believe I can ever get excited about the Lions concept again and I have followed it since 1977 and have read the accounts of the tours before that. If this turned out to be the last ever tour though, the way I feel about it at the moment, I could not care less.

Hard to imagine that I will ever be enthused about it again.

Good luck to the Lions on Saturday, but in losing the support of one of its constituents parts. Polls suggesting that 2/3 of Scots fans are either indifferent or want the ABs to win. It is probably fair to say that they don't represent Scottish rugby any more and have not done so for some time.

Kind of sad but thats the way it now is. Did it matter in 1993 when Scotland only took 1 player in the tests vs 11 Englishmen?

When I was growing up, the lions was playing for your country. We sang GSTQ, even England flew the union jack at all sporting events... and I'd say Euro96 was probably the first time the st georges cross came out en masse. For Ireland it was obviously more complicated.

In the end its a bit like the Olympics.... I don't support team GB only if we have enough players involved but I appreciate that over the last few decades the 4 nations have become significantly less identified as British and more identified as Welsh, N.Irish, Scottish, English.


It is tricky to not take it personally and in the past the bad teams (such as Wales during the RL exodus, ENG during the 80s) were always able to get a nice representation from the "well rounded" squads where jokers like Richard Wallace, Peter Wright would get in over better players... McGeechan even said so in 97 when he insisted that time, in the pro era he'd only agree if he could pick his own players, irrespective of where they came from. Will Carling was even made vice captain in 93 and even made the first test.

That's how I feel. It's sometimes nice to know that an athlete in team GB was from down the road, but I honestly don't identify with them individually on a country basis when donning the team GB vest. It's a complicated and intricate relationship (nationality and the whole UK makeup). I'm a HUGE athletics fans. Probably my 2nd sport after rugby. When the Olympics or Worlds are on TV I'm screaming for the Brownlee brothers, without a thought to the fact that they're not Welsh. I was out of my seat watching Mo Farah, as if it was Wales about to score a 6 nations winning try. I was so disappointed for Eilidh Doyle (Scottish) as I thought she was in form to get a medal, but was jumping around when she (along with English athletes) got a 4x400m relay bronze. I'm also a huge cycling fan and at the velodrome I can honestly say that for a lot of the athletes I cannot tell you what nationality they are. I just had to look it up actually, and I can tell you hand on heart I was cheering on Scottish track cyclists Katie Archibald and Callum Skinner to the max, without thinking for one minute 'are any of these welsh'.

So, just as Scots on these boards have the right to say "don't tell me how I should feel" please don't tell me how I actually feel and try to argue that I am lying to myself, as I have been accused of before (I think by you Fa!). Everyone is different.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by tigertattie on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:29 am

I've done dumps in the toilet whose stink has lingered longer than 66 mins!
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:31 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Indeed. If they can keep up the lofty heights of 4th/6, then they will force selection.

England came 4th in the 6 nations in 2005 and Woodward deemed it fit to select an English majority of players. Wales came 5th this year and also have a large contingent. Scotland have been shafted IMO.

Oh yeah, I don't think anyone is disputing that.

I won't go as far as saying I'll support the all blacks as some of the more rabid fans are saying on social media. However my interest has dipped significantly now. It's like Wimbledon, I'll still watch the final (even if Murray doesn't make it), as a sports fan you almost have to. However I wouldn't just support Fedderer because he's from Europe. You want some British representation to really get behind.

Much like the Lions you want some of your own players to really get behind.

66 minutes in 17 years of Lions rugby is quite frankly disgraceful, and you can bleat about bad luck and 50-50 calls, but the truth remains Gatland picks his favourites and he was always going to.

Onto the athletics point Griff raises, it is not comparable. Athletics is chosen through qualifying competitions to ensure the best represent us. If and it is a big if the 6N is viewed as a qualifying competition for the Lions Scotland should have more players than Ireland or Wales since we won 2 (the same as England) matches against the Lions teams wheras Wales and Ireland only won 1 each. So the athletics argument is null and void.

In truth Wales and Ireland have very similar 6N performances over the last 6 years, however the Welsh coach has handed out nearly double the test caps to Wales as opposed to Ireland...
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Scottrf on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:32 am

tigertattie wrote:I've done dumps in the toilet whose stink has lingered longer than 66 mins!
Rather unfair analogy of Scottish players.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by R!skysports on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:32 am

Griff wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
BigGee wrote:This whole tour has made it very easy for Scottish fans to become completely indifferent to how the English, Welsh and Irish Lions are getting on.

I am not even planning to watch the match, though I won't go as far as supporting the ABs. The anti Scottish bias just seems to me to be totally institutionalised now and I find it hard to believe I can ever get excited about the Lions concept again and I have followed it since 1977 and have read the accounts of the tours before that. If this turned out to be the last ever tour though, the way I feel about it at the moment, I could not care less.

Hard to imagine that I will ever be enthused about it again.

Good luck to the Lions on Saturday, but in losing the support of one of its constituents parts. Polls suggesting that 2/3 of Scots fans are either indifferent or want the ABs to win. It is probably fair to say that they don't represent Scottish rugby any more and have not done so for some time.

Kind of sad but thats the way it now is. Did it matter in 1993 when Scotland only took 1 player in the tests vs 11 Englishmen?

When I was growing up, the lions was playing for your country. We sang GSTQ, even England flew the union jack at all sporting events... and I'd say Euro96 was probably the first time the st georges cross came out en masse. For Ireland it was obviously more complicated.

In the end its a bit like the Olympics.... I don't support team GB only if we have enough players involved but I appreciate that over the last few decades the 4 nations have become significantly less identified as British and more identified as Welsh, N.Irish, Scottish, English.


It is tricky to not take it personally and in the past the bad teams (such as Wales during the RL exodus, ENG during the 80s) were always able to get a nice representation from the "well rounded" squads where jokers like Richard Wallace, Peter Wright would get in over better players... McGeechan even said so in 97 when he insisted that time, in the pro era he'd only agree if he could pick his own players, irrespective of where they came from. Will Carling was even made vice captain in 93 and even made the first test.

That's how I feel.  It's sometimes nice to know that an athlete in team GB was from down the road, but I honestly don't identify with them individually on a country basis when donning the team GB vest.  It's a complicated and intricate relationship (nationality and the whole UK makeup).  I'm a HUGE athletics fans.  Probably my 2nd sport after rugby.  When the Olympics or Worlds are on TV I'm screaming for the Brownlee brothers, without a thought to the fact that they're not Welsh.  I was out of my seat watching Mo Farah, as if it was Wales about to score a 6 nations winning try.   I was so disappointed for Eilidh Doyle (Scottish) as I thought she was in form to get a medal, but was jumping around when she (along with English athletes) got a 4x400m relay bronze.  I'm also a huge cycling fan and at the velodrome I can honestly say that for a lot of the athletes I cannot tell you what nationality they are.  I just had to look it up actually, and I can tell you hand on heart I was cheering on Scottish track cyclists Katie Archibald and Callum Skinner to the max, without thinking for one minute 'are any of these welsh'.  

So, just as Scots on these boards have the right to say "don't tell me how I should feel" please don't tell me how I actually feel and try to argue that I am lying to myself, as I have been accused of before (I think by you Fa!).  Everyone is different.

While I won't tell you how to feel :-)

I will point out Rugby is slightly different as you have 99% of the time playing as nations against each other, then for 1 % of the time come together as one (Which is not the same in the other sports, as they are much more individual)

The only way people will actually know how they will react, is when they are in the position we are in.

I hope that none of you have 12 years of no representation in the Lions, as I guess you might be a little disillusioned with it as well - but who know

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by BamBam on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:44 am

Can you imagine the pallaver if the Welsh went one tour without test representation, they'd be donning black/green and gold/green jerseys for the games

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:49 am

Oh here we go, I will probably end up with a ban for saying this, as I always do when I mention it. But here goes anyway.

Scotland finished in the dizzy heights of 4th in the last 6N, every year for god knows how long they have finished below that. Whilst the three other nations who represent the Lions have always been fighting it out for the title. Scotland beat Wales for the first time in a decade, whilst our coach was not involved, and I cannot remember the last time they beat England.

All this chest thumping and whinging from Scotland after one decent 6N in about 15 years is getting tiresome. If you call finishing 4th decent.

Yes, you beat Australia the other day, but the Lions squad was already picked by then. When Scotland start challenging for the 6N on a consistent basis, and lets be honest, they did not challenge this year, then they can start seeing more players picked for the Lions.

Scotland have a decent 1st 15, but man for man they do not rank much higher than their peers, so please lets put some perspective on this. If Scotland go the next few years finishing 3rd and upwards then you will have an argument, until then, I suggest you look at things a little bit more pragmatically.

I am sorry if this offends any of our Scottish member on here, but that is the way I see it.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Griff on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:49 am

BamBam wrote:Can you imagine the pallaver if the Welsh went one tour without test representation, they'd be donning black/green and gold/green jerseys for the games

Based on what?

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by BamBam on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:53 am

LordDowlais wrote:Oh here we go, I will probably end up with a ban for saying this, as I always do when I mention it. But here goes anyway.

Scotland finished in the dizzy heights of 4th in the last 6N, every year for god knows how long they have finished below that. Whilst the three other nations who represent the Lions have always been fighting it out for the title. Scotland beat Wales for the first time in a decade, whilst our coach was not involved, and I cannot remember the last time they beat England.

All this chest thumping and whinging from Scotland after one decent 6N in about 15 years is getting tiresome. If you call finishing 4th decent.

Yes, you beat Australia the other day, but the Lions squad was already picked by then. When Scotland start challenging for the 6N on a consistent basis, and lets be honest, they did not challenge this year, then they can start seeing more players picked for the Lions.

Scotland have a decent 1st 15, but man for man they do not rank much higher than their peers, so please lets put some perspective on this. If Scotland go the next few years finishing 3rd and upwards then you will have an argument, until then, I suggest you look at things a little bit more pragmatically.

I am sorry if this offends any of our Scottish member on here, but that is the way I see it.

So current form has nothing to do with it, hence Welsh dross getting picked despite finishing 5th

Thanks for the insight into Blockhead's thinking

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by R!skysports on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 9:55 am

LordDowlais wrote:Oh here we go, I will probably end up with a ban for saying this, as I always do when I mention it. But here goes anyway.

Scotland finished in the dizzy heights of 4th in the last 6N, every year for god knows how long they have finished below that. Whilst the three other nations who represent the Lions have always been fighting it out for the title. Scotland beat Wales for the first time in a decade, whilst our coach was not involved, and I cannot remember the last time they beat England.

All this chest thumping and whinging from Scotland after one decent 6N in about 15 years is getting tiresome. If you call finishing 4th decent.

Yes, you beat Australia the other day, but the Lions squad was already picked by then. When Scotland start challenging for the 6N on a consistent basis, and lets be honest, they did not challenge this year, then they can start seeing more players picked for the Lions.

Scotland have a decent 1st 15, but man for man they do not rank much higher than their peers, so please lets put some perspective on this. If Scotland go the next few years finishing 3rd and upwards then you will have an argument, until then, I suggest you look at things a little bit more pragmatically.

I am sorry if this offends any of our Scottish member on here, but that is the way I see it.

Not worthy of a ban having a opinion

The point is Scotland have been performing well and was on form for a year. They got to 5th in the world by consistent performances - rather than just a one off.

If it was just the 6 nations, I would say, fair enough - but our players have been performing well for a while.

Even so Scottish fans only were expecting and calling for around 5 players to be picked (Still less than any other nation) as we are realistic

2 was an insult. We have had enough individuals who have been better than other picked to make it worthy of selection

Picking out of form and injured players (and past it players), just was salt on the wound.


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Re: 66 minutes

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