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66 minutes

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:15 pm

First topic message reminder :

66 minutes.

That is the amount of test match minutes Scotland has contributed to the Lions test matches in 4 tours

-2005-

3rd (dead rubber) test
Gordon Bulloch 10 minutes

from the bench

-2009-

3rd (dead rubber) test
Ross Ford 43 minutes from the

bench

-2013-
3rd test
Richie Gray 13 minutes from the
bench

-2017-
No test involvement

People honestly wonder why we struggle to get behind the team?
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by BamBam on Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:58 am

You've got to remember that LD thinks its his opinions that get him bans, not the threats of "you wouldn't say that to my face" etc that he usually dishes out

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Griff on Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:59 am

Do you think a Scottish Lions head coach (e.g. Townsend) would help?

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:59 am

LordDowlais wrote:Oh here we go, I will probably end up with a ban for saying this, as I always do when I mention it. But here goes anyway.

Scotland finished in the dizzy heights of 4th in the last 6N, every year for god knows how long they have finished below that. Whilst the three other nations who represent the Lions have always been fighting it out for the title. Scotland beat Wales for the first time in a decade, whilst our coach was not involved, and I cannot remember the last time they beat England.

All this chest thumping and whinging from Scotland after one decent 6N in about 15 years is getting tiresome. If you call finishing 4th decent.

Yes, you beat Australia the other day, but the Lions squad was already picked by then. When Scotland start challenging for the 6N on a consistent basis, and lets be honest, they did not challenge this year, then they can start seeing more players picked for the Lions.

Scotland have a decent 1st 15, but man for man they do not rank much higher than their peers, so please lets put some perspective on this. If Scotland go the next few years finishing 3rd and upwards then you will have an argument, until then, I suggest you look at things a little bit more pragmatically.

I am sorry if this offends any of our Scottish member on here, but that is the way I see it.

I doubt you'll get banned for that to be honest.

We had a chance to win it on the penultimate weekend, and could have finished 2nd if results on the final weekend went our way...

Clearly we have been judged on past tournaments, as opposed to the current one. Heyho, nevermind. Enjoy saturday.
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Griff on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:02 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Oh here we go, I will probably end up with a ban for saying this, as I always do when I mention it. But here goes anyway.

Scotland finished in the dizzy heights of 4th in the last 6N, every year for god knows how long they have finished below that. Whilst the three other nations who represent the Lions have always been fighting it out for the title. Scotland beat Wales for the first time in a decade, whilst our coach was not involved, and I cannot remember the last time they beat England.

All this chest thumping and whinging from Scotland after one decent 6N in about 15 years is getting tiresome. If you call finishing 4th decent.

Yes, you beat Australia the other day, but the Lions squad was already picked by then. When Scotland start challenging for the 6N on a consistent basis, and lets be honest, they did not challenge this year, then they can start seeing more players picked for the Lions.

Scotland have a decent 1st 15, but man for man they do not rank much higher than their peers, so please lets put some perspective on this. If Scotland go the next few years finishing 3rd and upwards then you will have an argument, until then, I suggest you look at things a little bit more pragmatically.

I am sorry if this offends any of our Scottish member on here, but that is the way I see it.

I doubt you'll get banned for that to be honest.

We had a chance to win it on the penultimate weekend, and could have finished 2nd if results on the final weekend went our way...

Clearly we have been judged on past tournaments, as opposed to the current one. Heyho, nevermind. Enjoy saturday.

I thought ifs and buts and morale victories were outlawed on these boards? Run

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:05 am

Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.


Last edited by LordDowlais on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:05 am

Griff wrote:Do you think a Scottish Lions head coach (e.g. Townsend) would help?

I wouldn't like to think so because it goes back to parochialism which is what we all want to avoid. My issue is that Gatland for whatever reason despite watching Scotland's 2 best games in the 6N against Ireland and Wales at Murrayfield he still only took 2 initial players.

When Warburton and AWJ came off they mentioned the breakdown and how influencial Barclay and Watson were, in the game against Ireland Watson made 17 tackles and missed none in a 50 minute shift. The Gray Brothers made a combined 39 tackles between them in the same game.

I don't want to get bogged down in stats or nonsense like that, but jeez, if we can't get players in the Lions based on merit after those sorts of performances we just have to accept we aren't welcome.

Yes England dicked us at Twickenham, but as has already been trodden over we lost influencial players very early and Eddie Jones brutally exposed a flaw in our defensive system.

I'd like to think whoever the Lions coach is he could look at the players, at his disposal and select objectively. Can you really say Moriarty or Haskell would have added more than Barclay or Watson. Or can you really say that Henderson added more than what Gray could have brought? Or Biggar and Russell?

These for me were the tight 50-50 calls and for the interests of harmony and unity, I would have thrown a couple our way...
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Griff on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:09 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Griff wrote:Do you think a Scottish Lions head coach (e.g. Townsend) would help?

I wouldn't like to think so because it goes back to parochialism which is what we all want to avoid. My issue is that Gatland for whatever reason despite watching Scotland's 2 best games in the 6N against Ireland and Wales at Murrayfield he still only took 2 initial players.

When Warburton and AWJ came off they mentioned the breakdown and how influencial Barclay and Watson were, in the game against Ireland Watson made 17 tackles and missed none in a 50 minute shift. The Gray Brothers made a combined 39 tackles between them in the same game.

I don't want to get bogged down in stats or nonsense like that, but jeez, if we can't get players in the Lions based on merit after those sorts of performances we just have to accept we aren't welcome.

Yes England dicked us at Twickenham, but as has already been trodden over we lost influencial players very early and Eddie Jones brutally exposed a flaw in our defensive system.

I'd like to think whoever the Lions coach is he could look at the players, at his disposal and select objectively. Can you really say Moriarty or Haskell would have added more than Barclay or Watson. Or can you really say that Henderson added more than what Gray could have brought? Or Biggar and Russell?

These for me were the tight 50-50 calls and for the interests of harmony and unity, I would have thrown a couple our way...

Moriaty is a 6 who plays at 8 occasionally.  Comparing him to Watson is inaccurate.  Tipuric is the direct comparison, and his stats for the SEASON were better than Watson.  Maybe that's what swung it.  Same for Barclay I s'pose who is a 7. Even his own country didn't rate him for years and he had to move to Wales for club rugby!  In good form now, but playing 8 quite often and I think there are better 8s then Barclay.

Edit: I've already said numerous times that Gray and Russell should have gone.


Last edited by Griff on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:09 am

Scotland didn't challenge this year? Not true from where I was sat. Before the game at Twickenham there was the very real threat they could actually do it. The team was then decimated through injury but to rewrite history on the basis of where they finished ignores the actual events in the tournament. It also ignores actual players over team acomplishment and also Scottish depth in player resources. Their first team.for me is very very good with quite a steep drop away which badly affects them.if they pick up injuries and suspensions.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by BamBam on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:10 am

LordDowlais wrote:Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.

Jonny and Richie Gray

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by R!skysports on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:11 am

LordDowlais wrote:Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.

Sigh!!!

Not Welsh bashing and please stop going to that one

We have mentioned enoiugh other players that should not be there on form before (Haskel, Teo Nevell) but you choose to ignore that as it does not fit into your anti Welsh retoric

Anti Gatland yes

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Griff on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:11 am

BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.

Jonny and Richie Gray

One of them at least is injured, isn't he? Jonny Gray about to undergo surgery and missed the Scottish tour.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by BamBam on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:12 am

Griff wrote:
BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.

Jonny and Richie Gray

One of them at least is injured, isn't he?  Jonny Gray about to undergo surgery and missed the Scottish tour.

Even on one leg they're better

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Griff on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:13 am

BamBam wrote:
Griff wrote:
BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.

Jonny and Richie Gray

One of them at least is injured, isn't he?  Jonny Gray about to undergo surgery and missed the Scottish tour.

Even on one leg they're better

It's those sort of comments that just make the whole argument ridiculous. What a child!

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:15 am

Griff wrote:
BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.

Jonny and Richie Gray

One of them at least is injured, isn't he?  Jonny Gray about to undergo surgery and missed the Scottish tour.

Nah Johnny Played 80 mins against Oz, but you are right he has just underwent surgery. Richie you are right though he is injured.

Like I said, I would have thrown a couple of the 50-50s our way, I genuinley think Russell could have had a positive impact and had it not been for Murray we probably would have seen a back 3 of Hogg, Williams and Watson. Which would have been a counter attacking wet dream.
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by eirebilly on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:16 am

LordDowlais wrote:Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.

Not sure it is Welsh bashing as such there LD.

I actually think that Seymour has been hard done by for test selection. He is great under the high ball and has amazing instincts which have seen him score a number of intercept try's.

Hamish Watson is another player who I felt was more than worthy of a Squad position, maybe not test but certainly Squad.

Russell as well could quite easily have made the squad.


Last edited by eirebilly on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by R!skysports on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:16 am

Griff wrote:
BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.

Jonny and Richie Gray

One of them at least is injured, isn't he?  Jonny Gray about to undergo surgery and missed the Scottish tour.

Wasn' t at selection time - which is ironic as the person select was


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Re: 66 minutes

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:17 am

R!skysports wrote:We have mentioned enoiugh other players that should not be there on form before (Haskel, Teo Nevell) but you choose to ignore that as it does not fit into your anti Welsh retoric

it's not a rhetoric though is it ?

Where are the endless debates about Haskel, Teo, Nowell ? We seem to be having them about all the Welsh players, AWJ especially even though nobody will admit he was instrumental in our win on Saturday. I have seen them about Warburton, yet he was another who was heavily involved on Saturday.

What about the likes of Payne, Henderson ect ? Nobody was going in depth to discuss their inclusion. No. It was all, why Biggar not Russell, why AWJ and not one of the Grey Bro's. Why Moriarty and not Watson ? When there are players from other nations picked instead as well.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:18 am

Fed up of Welsh bashing but limit a question on which scots over Welsh. Not just which scots. Then wonder why people will then focus on Welsh.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:18 am

BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.

Jonny and Richie Gray

Instead of other players from other nations who are not captains of their national sides ?

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by BamBam on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:18 am

Griff wrote:
BamBam wrote:
Griff wrote:
BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.

Jonny and Richie Gray

One of them at least is injured, isn't he?  Jonny Gray about to undergo surgery and missed the Scottish tour.

Even on one leg they're better

It's those sort of comments that just make the whole argument ridiculous.  What a child!

I agree .. similar to stating that Sergio Parisse was an inferior number 8 to Andy Powell

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by BamBam on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:19 am

LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.

Jonny and Richie Gray

Instead of other players from other nations who are not captains of their national sides ?

No, just instead of the sloth that is AWJ

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:19 am

LordDowlais wrote:
R!skysports wrote:We have mentioned enoiugh other players that should not be there on form before (Haskel, Teo Nevell) but you choose to ignore that as it does not fit into your anti Welsh retoric

it's not a rhetoric though is it ?

Where are the endless debates about Haskel, Teo, Nowell ? We seem to be having them about all the Welsh players, AWJ especially even though nobody will admit he was instrumental in our win on Saturday. I have seen them about Warburton, yet he was another who was heavily involved on Saturday.

What about the likes of Payne, Henderson ect ? Nobody was going in depth to discuss their inclusion. No. It was all, why Biggar not Russell, why AWJ and not one of the Grey Bro's. Why Moriarty and not Watson ? When there are players from other nations picked instead as well.

I actually mentioned Haskell and Henderson about 6 comments back.

Read more. Type less. thumbsup
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:20 am

eirebilly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.

Not sure it is Welsh bashing as such there LD.

I actually think that Seymour has been hard done by for test selection. He is great under the high ball and has amazing instincts which have seen him score a number of intercept try's.

Hamish Watson is another player who I felt was more than worthy of a Squad position, maybe not test but certainly Squad.

Russell as well could quite easily have made the squad.

Yes I agree, but who would you have dropped for these players ?

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by samuraidragon on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:20 am

The outstanding Scottish player of recent years is Hogg. He would have been well worth a place in the 23 and might have started all three tests. The fact he got injured is very unfortunate and not Gatland's fault.

Seymour has acquitted himself very well, but not quite well enough to force his way into the 15 and is possibly not adaptable enough for the bench. In that he is in the same bag as Tipuric and Biggar, who have also had good tours.

Laidlaw, I think, was a diplomatic choice of reserve  by Gatland. He's not as good as eg. Care.

The Scots wing forwards and second rowers are excellent, but these are areas where competition is intense, as we saw with the omission of Launchbury  and Robshaw, also very good players.

In short, what Scots players do you think should be in the test 15 or 23?

I'm not a fan of Gatland or Gatball and he has made plenty of mistakes on this tour, but I'm not sure what Scots he should have picked for the Tests.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by R!skysports on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:20 am

LordDowlais wrote:
R!skysports wrote:We have mentioned enoiugh other players that should not be there on form before (Haskel, Teo Nevell) but you choose to ignore that as it does not fit into your anti Welsh retoric

it's not a rhetoric though is it ?

Where are the endless debates about Haskel, Teo, Nowell ? We seem to be having them about all the Welsh players, AWJ especially even though nobody will admit he was instrumental in our win on Saturday. I have seen them about Warburton, yet he was another who was heavily involved on Saturday.

What about the likes of Payne, Henderson ect ? Nobody was going in depth to discuss their inclusion. No. It was all, why Biggar not Russell, why AWJ and not one of the Grey Bro's. Why Moriarty and not Watson ? When there are players from other nations picked instead as well.

There was - and still is - especially about players selected on for the tesst based on form during the tour -(Farrel!!!)

However, they did not have a friendly coach selecting them

AWJ instrumental was he......ok - missed that one (Or was it when he subbed off we won?)

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by dummy_half on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:21 am

With England-tinted glasses on, I do feel the Scots have been somewhat hard done by, but also that circumstances have slightly conspired against them this year.

Looking by position:

LH - Don't think the Scots have anyone close to Lions standard
Hooker - In a position where there are lots of candidates at a similar level, would Brown or Ford really merit selection ahead of the 3 Lions hookers or Hartley? Not for me (although one should have been the hooker added on for the mw team)
TH - Nel would have been there but for injury through this spring

2nd row - Here you can feel hard done by, in that at least one Gray should have been included ahead of AW-J, Henderson and arguably Kruis (in the latter case because he was just returning from injury). Then again Launchbury missed out too...

Flankers - I'd definitely have included Watson. May not be the biggest but offers a dynamism beyond that of the Lions choices. Barclay has a good case for inclusion too, but at who's expense? Haskell perhaps?

No 8: Not been Scotland's strength recently.

SH - Laidlaw drafted in to the tour, but midweek starter always looked like the limit of his involvement
10 - One area that showed Gatland's one-dimensional thinking, as the three 10s picked are all solid rather than flair players. For me, having one of Russell or Ford in the squad would have been a better balance.

Centres - Huw Jones would probably have been in the squad but for injury. You could make a case for Dunbar, but the England game probably counted against him.

Wings - Seymour in the squad was probably fair. Unlucky not to get some Test time from the bench.

Fullback - Hogg should have been the test fullback, but obviously that plan was scuppered by injury.

So I think there was a good case for 4 or 5 more Scots in the squad, and at least a couple of players should have been there or thereabouts for the Test side (at least as bench options)

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by BamBam on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:23 am

LordDowlais wrote:
R!skysports wrote:We have mentioned enoiugh other players that should not be there on form before (Haskel, Teo Nevell) but you choose to ignore that as it does not fit into your anti Welsh retoric

it's not a rhetoric though is it ?

Where are the endless debates about Haskel, Teo, Nowell ? We seem to be having them about all the Welsh players, AWJ especially even though nobody will admit he was instrumental in our win on Saturday. I have seen them about Warburton, yet he was another who was heavily involved on Saturday.

What about the likes of Payne, Henderson ect ? Nobody was going in depth to discuss their inclusion. No. It was all, why Biggar not Russell, why AWJ and not one of the Grey Bro's. Why Moriarty and not Watson ? When there are players from other nations picked instead as well.

So AWJ has been "instrumental" (unless he was playing the national anthem I must have missed him doing anything else), but Teo's place on tour should be questioned

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh god you're a joke

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:24 am

R!skysports wrote:AWJ instrumental was he......ok - missed that one (Or was it when he subbed off we won?)

Watch the game again, watch how he was always in the faces of the All Blacks, he was constantly roughing them up, he did what he had to do well, unfortunately, he does not have the fuel to last 80mins any more.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Scottrf on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:25 am

How many points is being in the face of the opposition team worth? I could do that ffs but I'm not arguing for my inclusion.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by BamBam on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:26 am

LordDowlais wrote:
R!skysports wrote:AWJ instrumental was he......ok - missed that one (Or was it when he subbed off we won?)

Watch the game again, watch how he was always in the faces of the All Blacks, he was constantly roughing them up, he did what he had to do well, unfortunately, he does not have the fuel to last 80mins any more.

Roughing them up was he? I'm sure Retallick cacked himself at the sight of AWJ

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by R!skysports on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:27 am

LordDowlais wrote:
R!skysports wrote:AWJ instrumental was he......ok - missed that one (Or was it when he subbed off we won?)

Watch the game again, watch how he was always in the faces of the All Blacks, he was constantly roughing them up, he did what he had to do well, unfortunately, he does not have the fuel to last 80mins any more.

Maybe if he spent less time trying to rough them up and more time actually playing rugby, we would have not been second best in the pack against 7 men. We were hugely second best until 60 mins (remember that bit too)

The instrumental part for me was when Lawes came on

So thanks should be given to AWJ for not being fit enough to last 80 mins

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:27 am

OK then, so we can all agree, the only Welsh player that should not be there is AWJ ?

Now, what English and Irish players should we drop for all these other Scottish players that should be included ?

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:28 am

LordDowlais wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Of the Welsh players starting on Saturday, what Scottish players are better and are not injured ?

I am getting fed up of the welsh bashing on here. There are plenty of players from other nations who you could argue the toss of whether they should be on tour or not.

Not sure it is Welsh bashing as such there LD.

I actually think that Seymour has been hard done by for test selection. He is great under the high ball and has amazing instincts which have seen him score a number of intercept try's.

Hamish Watson is another player who I felt was more than worthy of a Squad position, maybe not test but certainly Squad.

Russell as well could quite easily have made the squad.

Yes I agree, but who would you have dropped for these players ?

I'd certainly have called up Watson ahead of Haskell.

Launchbury & J Gray ahead of AWJ & Henderson

Russell narrowly ahead of Biggar (though I'd have taken both, with Farrell going as a 10/12, and I'd have left either Payne or Halfpenny at home)
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Scottrf on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:29 am

LordDowlais wrote:OK then, so we can all agree, the only Welsh player that should not be there is AWJ ?

Now, what English and Irish players should we drop for all these other Scottish players that should be included ?
Watson for Haskell? Taylor for Payne?

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:30 am

R!skysports wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
R!skysports wrote:AWJ instrumental was he......ok - missed that one (Or was it when he subbed off we won?)

Watch the game again, watch how he was always in the faces of the All Blacks, he was constantly roughing them up, he did what he had to do well, unfortunately, he does not have the fuel to last 80mins any more.

Maybe if he spent less time trying to rough them up and more time actually playing rugby, we would have not been second best in the pack against 7 men. We were hugely second best until 60 mins (remember that bit too)

The instrumental part for me was when Lawes came on

So thanks should be given to AWJ for not being fit enough to last 80 mins

I think you will find it was when Mako went off.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:30 am

Scottrf wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:OK then, so we can all agree, the only Welsh player that should not be there is AWJ ?

Now, what English and Irish players should we drop for all these other Scottish players that should be included ?
Watson for Haskell? Taylor for Payne?

Oh he's good kiss
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by BamBam on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:32 am

LordDowlais wrote:
R!skysports wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
R!skysports wrote:AWJ instrumental was he......ok - missed that one (Or was it when he subbed off we won?)

Watch the game again, watch how he was always in the faces of the All Blacks, he was constantly roughing them up, he did what he had to do well, unfortunately, he does not have the fuel to last 80mins any more.

Maybe if he spent less time trying to rough them up and more time actually playing rugby, we would have not been second best in the pack against 7 men. We were hugely second best until 60 mins (remember that bit too)

The instrumental part for me was when Lawes came on

So thanks should be given to AWJ for not being fit enough to last 80 mins

I think you will find it was when Mako went off.

Laugh Bluster does it again

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by R!skysports on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:34 am

LordDowlais wrote:OK then, so we can all agree, the only Welsh player that should not be there is AWJ ?

Now, what English and Irish players should we drop for all these other Scottish players that should be included ?

YOU are the only one who keeps saying it is Anti Welsh - it isn't as everything else shows

It is anti Gatland and I stand by that, as I think he has done a very poor job (simialr to 2013)


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Re: 66 minutes

Post by Gooseberry on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:35 am

That scottish hooker who can throw straight for Best  Rolling Eyes

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:35 am

Swap it around again, which Welsh players do you think have underperformed and who shouldn't be there ld?

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by BamBam on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:36 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Swap it around again, which Welsh players do you think have underperformed and who shouldn't be there ld?

Good luck with this one

Its probably Mako's fault they underperformed

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by eirebilly on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:39 am

LordDowlais wrote:
it's not a rhetoric though is it ?

Where are the endless debates about Haskel, Teo, Nowell ? We seem to be having them about all the Welsh players, AWJ especially even though nobody will admit he was instrumental in our win on Saturday. I have seen them about Warburton, yet he was another who was heavily involved on Saturday.

What about the likes of Payne, Henderson ect
? Nobody was going in depth to discuss their inclusion. No. It was all, why Biggar not Russell, why AWJ and not one of the Grey Bro's. Why Moriarty and not Watson ? When there are players from other nations picked instead as well.

If you read back, you will see that myself (as an Irishman) was very surprised by both these inclusions. Henderson has come into some form but his form in the lead up to selection did not warrant selection and I was never certain about Payne...
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:47 am

It has nothing to do with Welsh bashing, it's not Wales fault that Gatland is a dick.

Scotland's record since AIs 2016 - Present: Played 11, Won 7, lost 4 merited more players being picked in the first place.

I grant you that selection is a subjective thing, but to have only two representatives selected from the outset was disgraceful

2005, 2009, 2014 selection numbers IMO were tolerable, 2017... utterly indefensible.
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Re: 66 minutes

Post by the-goon on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:02 am

controversial but maybe produce better players...

Bar Hogg and maybe Nel and Jones (all injured), who was good enough to challenge for a spot in the 23 this year? J Gray, maybe but a better player missed out on selection as well. Seymour not really. Watson, dirt tracker maybe.

And as for 2005, 2009 and 2013, you were muck back then, can't have that many compliants. 2017 is the 1st season in 11 seasons you won 3 matches in the 6 nations. For Scotland a good season, for Ireland, Wales and England the bare minimum or a failure.

These are the 6nation finishes 2003-2016. 4th (above Wales), 6th, 5th, 3rd  (above Eng and Wales), 6th, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6, 3 (above Irl), 5, 6, 4th.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:04 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Swap it around again, which Welsh players do you think have underperformed and who shouldn't be there ld?

I was surprised with Ken Owens and Leigh Halfpenny to be honest.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:12 am

Just them 2 then ok. And who has underperformed?

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:19 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just them 2 then ok. And who has underperformed?

AWJ up until last Saturday. Ken Owens has not really had that much of a look in. George North was poor before his injury. Other than that, I think the other Welsh players have given a good account of themselves, and players like Biggar have been unlucky not to be picked in the test side.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:22 am

Really? But then I'm still waiting for your critique on Biggar.

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Re: 66 minutes

Post by LordDowlais on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:24 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Really? But then I'm still waiting for your critique on Biggar.

FFS 7&1/2.

I am trying with you, I really am.

It's back to ignore for you I think. Rolling Eyes


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Re: 66 minutes

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:25 am

Could you please? At least then there's a proper reason to not explain your own thoughts.

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Re: 66 minutes

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