Ireland November Tests.

First topic message reminder :

What would we like to see?
With ringrose definitely out, and henshaw and Payne looking unlikely, who shall step into the centre pairing?
If all our back row are fit whats the best combo?
Will tonner continue in the row or will he be usurped?

Lots of questions, and the season hasnt even started yet

EXTERMINATE!!!!  EXTERMINATE!!!!!!!

wolfball wrote:

I know alot of you love to see running rugby. I do too! The Lam years were amazing, and I never want connacht to be a bosh team. But Ireland is different to me. I would happily have a 50 game winning streak of 3-0 per match.

Come on Wolf....you might love it - your heart wouldn't! 

Some of us followers are now beginning to get along a bit.  We gotta look after ourselves.  I hope that I do and still think of myself as being early to mid-30s..... but I ain't!

The old ticker needs care and attention so you can take your 50 game winning sequence of 3-0 games and shove them up your....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (oh sorry, I just nearly had an Eddie Jones moment... )

New caps and player development is misleading. In the modern game the number of matches, injuries, need for bench dictates more players getting caps.

Schmidt is pretty conservative. But he gets results with his way of playing. Sometimes when injuries force schmidts hand a new player comes in and would appear to out perform the usual player only for schmidt to revert back afterwards, seemingly less impressed than everyone else.

For example i thought he persisted with an out of form toner at the expense of a better overall player in henderson during the last six nations. Up until the last game when toner was dropped and injury dictacted o mahony replace heaslip. O mahony and henderson played themselves into the lions squad and were key performers in a much improved ireland performance.

On the running rugby bit.  All that I require from Joe O'Schmmidt is for his team to PROVE to me - virtually in every game for whatever duration - Prove to me that his team CAN play it fast, loose and Accurate, and that such a gameplan is there when needed and can be effective in habitually contributing to the try count.

I don't need to see entire games of run, dash and jink - that's not what I'm on about whenever I talk of it.  I like to see it used so that I know it's in his mind at training time and that the players have it in their arsenal.  We're all adults here, no need for attempts at bluffing wise coaches around the planet.  If we have it, use it more often to contribute to some of our tries - 10 or 15 minute spurts of all out, combined thinking, offloading attack and panic inducing pace.

I want to see it more often because like Thomas and Jesus, I start doubting when I don't see it.  I was glad to see a cameo of it at the end of the SA game.  But for a long stretch of that game, I was frustrated that I wasn't seeing it and didn't feel that I would.

Wee question for you all - is it a coincidence that when Murray went off we started to play with a bit more zip and fluency? Suddenly we had some line breaks and tries, and we know that Marmion and Murray have very different philosophies with regards to the game. Marmion is used to getting that ball out as quickly as he can so that his team can play with the ball a bit. Murray is a lot more tactical and strategic.

A wee answer - IMHO by the time Marmion entered the fray South Africa were done mentally and physically. They had been bullied upfront, especially at scrum time and shown no threat in the backs.

The All Blacks do this regularly to teams - win the war of attrition and then annihilate you in the last 20 mins.

The fact Marmion brought more zip is probably a combination of factors: his style of play, the latter stages game plan and a beaten SA.

A wee question in return - assuming Murray wasn't physically exhausted, if the game had been very tight going into the last 10 minutes would you have preferred Murray on the pitch or Marmion?

Murray is a great guy to have in a slog fest - as you say he is tactical and strategic and as he showed against the All blacks he can create a little magic too.

I'm with the snowman - the Saffers were a busted flush in the last 10 mins

The bench is always supposed to bring zip and vitality to the game. It hasn't always been the case with Ireland (or most other teams for that matter) but on Saturday the added urgency from the fresh players left the battered Saffers with no answer at all.

rapidsnowman wrote:A wee answer - IMHO by the time Marmion entered the fray South Africa were done mentally and physically. They had been bullied upfront, especially at scrum time and shown no threat in the backs.

The All Blacks do this regularly to teams - win the war of attrition and then annihilate you in the last 20 mins.

The fact Marmion brought more zip is probably a combination of factors: his style of play, the latter stages game plan and a beaten SA.

A wee question in return - assuming Murray wasn't physically exhausted, if the game had been very tight going into the last 10 minutes would you have preferred Murray on the pitch or Marmion?

Murray is a great guy to have in a slog fest - as you say he is tactical and strategic and as he showed against the All blacks he can create a little magic too.

If the game was tight going into the last 10 minutes?

Marmion by logical conclusion. And Marmion by choice too. I know everyone lauds Murray. But there are two kinds of 9s. Marmion is and always will be more my kind, the Stringer kind. I appreciate Murray is bullish, big and suits our attritional style more - but for me, that's the very issue we have - we have an excuse for not using a faster game more often.

Thanks for all the answers, including the wee ones.

I recognise that SA were deflated at this point, but they are still a top tier team. I think it is a combination of factors, but certainly Marmion has an entirely different playing philosophy than Murray and is eager to get the ball out as quick as possible or create something himself. I think it is a noticeable difference, and not just in this game. McGrath seems to be a combination of the two but his consistency isn't there.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Thanks for all the answers, including the wee ones.

I recognise that SA were deflated at this point, but they are still a top tier team. I think it is a combination of factors, but certainly Marmion has an entirely different playing philosophy than Murray and is eager to get the ball out as quick as possible or create something himself. I think it is a noticeable difference, and not just in this game. McGrath seems to be a combination of the two but his consistency isn't there.

Marmion has played about twice as many games as McGrath, so it's probably easier to gain consistency when you play regularly

This is beyond hilarious. In a tight game people would replace one of the best scrum halves in the world. If their is one thing that won’t happen under Joe that is certainly the case.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:This is beyond hilarious. In a tight game people would replace one of the best scrum halves in the world. If their is one thing that won’t happen under Joe that is certainly the case.

Murrary has always had a relatively slow pass. He has lots of other strengths and is obviously our number 1. Good to see the other players, Marmion and McGrath looking strong too though.

Our game revolves around a strong defense and that only makes Murray more of a certainty to start. You pick you team to suit your game plan/style.

Mcklosky and Farrel in the centres. That's quite tall

The Ireland coaching group have named the match day squad, that includes one new cap, to take on Fiji at a sold out Aviva Stadium on Saturday afternoon in the second game of the Guinness Series 2017.



Munster's Chris Farrell is set to win his first cap alongside Stuart McCloskey in a new look centre partnership on Saturday evening.

Andrew Conway moves to fullback with Darren Sweetnam, who won his first cap last week, starting for the first time. David Kearney returns to the side to complete the back three.

Kieran Marmion will partner Joey Carbery in the halfbacks.

Up front Rhys Ruddock reprises his summer tour role as captain to lead the side. He is joined in the backrow by Jordi Murphy, who lined out for the Barbarians last week and Jack Conan.

Ultan Dillane joins Devin Toner in the engine room of the second row while Jack McGrath returns to duty in the front row where he is joined by Rob Herring and Andrew Porter.

James Tracy, who made his debut this time last year against Canada and Kieran Treadwell, who won his first cap on the summer tour are included in the replacements.

Cian Healy, Tadhg Furlong, CJ Stander and Robbie Henshaw are inlcuded from last week's starting fifteen with Luke McGrath and Ian Keatley completing the replacements.

Ireland Team & Replacements (v Fiji, Guinness Series 2017, Aviva Stadium, Saturday, November 18, 5.30pm)

15. Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 4 caps
14. Darren Sweetnam (Cork Constitution/Munster) 1 cap
13. Chris Farrell (Young Munster/Munster)*
12. Stuart McCloskey (Bangor/UIster) 1 cap
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster) 16 caps
10. Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster) 5 caps
9. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) 17 caps
1. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster) 41 caps
2. Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 2 caps
3. Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 2 caps
4. Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht) 10 caps
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 51 caps
6. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster) 17 caps Captain
7. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 17 caps
8. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 4 caps

Replacements
16. James Tracy (UCD/Leinster) 4 caps
17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 71 caps
18. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 17 caps
19. Kieran Treadwell (Ballymena/Ulster) 2 caps
20. CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 16 caps
21. Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 4 caps
22. Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster) 5 caps
23. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 30 caps

*Denotes uncapped player

Good team. Good to see someone with the experience and quality of Kearney come into the team.

Well, nobody can blame Joe now for sticking with the tried and tested.  That's a gamblers team because I don't think (I hope I'm wrong) but I don't think Ireland will get as much traction out of Fiji as that team suggests.

It's very much a put-the-boys-who-grumble-they're-good-enough under real pressure on the one day.  I think they'll have to be every bit as crafty and defiant in defence as against South Africa - and will they be?

Leaders?  Thin on the ground I think, which is another gamble.  But a nice idea that seems to suggest Joe thinks he's ready to give genuine rests between heavy games to the serious contenders.... which if proven right will pay dividends in the next WC and even in 6N.

Personally I don't like the make up of that side. No respect given to Fiji, a gaggle of untested players thrown in at the deep end. Feels like the bench has been set up to send on the cavalry to save the day in the final 25 minutes after the kids have been pummeled by Fiji and the Fijians start to tire.

Not quite sure what Farrell has shown to be thought of as a test quality outside centre (mind you i thought the same of Reid getting caps for Ireland also).

How is Porter starting TH, the lad has barely played any (meaningful) games in that position? Rodney or Bealham - are they both injured or something?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Personally I don't like the make up of that side. No respect given to Fiji, a gaggle of untested players thrown in at the deep end.  Feels like the bench has been set up to send on the cavalry to save the day in the final 25 minutes after the kids have been pummeled by Fiji and the Fijians start to tire.

Not quite sure what Farrell has shown to be thought of as a test quality outside centre (mind you i thought the same of Reid getting caps for Ireland also).

How is Porter starting TH, the lad has barely played any (meaningful) games in that position? Rodney or Bealham - are they both injured or something?

The selection has all those questions, to be sure, band. But something in Joe's Temperament seems to be more ambitious and confident this year so far. I mean I see a bullishness. Maybe finally he thinks he has a coaching selection that's beginning to churn out things and players the way he wants them.

Is he getting over cocky here? We'll see. But I like the risks.

Even that bench isn't exactly a guaranteed safe get-out-of-jail selection on paper - so again, that will put the first-ons under even more pressure. I think it's a design to heap the pressure on and see who crumbles or grows.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Personally I don't like the make up of that side. No respect given to Fiji, a gaggle of untested players thrown in at the deep end.  Feels like the bench has been set up to send on the cavalry to save the day in the final 25 minutes after the kids have been pummeled by Fiji and the Fijians start to tire.

Not quite sure what Farrell has shown to be thought of as a test quality outside centre (mind you i thought the same of Reid getting caps for Ireland also).

How is Porter starting TH, the lad has barely played any (meaningful) games in that position? Rodney or Bealham - are they both injured or something?

Well we have never lost to Fiji and it is usually a thrashing. You can please everyone anyway.

I have to say what I have seen of Farrel so far this year I'm not confident in him raising to the occasion. I hope I'm wrong

Not impressed  - Henshaw for Farrell and Bryne for Kearney would give more stability, in the backs, but still give s much youth a chance.
Would be happier with Ryan at Lock as well (unless he is injured)
I would put Porter on the bench

Also lacks a leader - other than Herring has anyone else got captain experience ?

To be honest such a miss mash looks like a good team not be part of - players on a hiding to nothing

I'm not sure what Farrell has done to warrant an Irish cap but then again Dave Average is there yet again and he has a few. Speaking of Dave Average, what has Dave Average done to warrant another Irish cap?

Anyway, all that aside it's great to see an all Ulster centre pairing for Ireland and one where Ulster only had to commit one player, Bonus!!!!

Pete330v2 wrote:I'm not sure what Farrell has done to warrant an Irish cap but then again Dave Average is there yet again and he has a few. Speaking of Dave Average, what has Dave Average done to warrant another Irish cap?

Joe checked him out with a mirror, some callipers and a full body MRI...and the examination came back positive; 100% certainty that he wasn't Simon Zebo. Dave done enough.

Collapse2005 wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Personally I don't like the make up of that side. No respect given to Fiji, a gaggle of untested players thrown in at the deep end.  Feels like the bench has been set up to send on the cavalry to save the day in the final 25 minutes after the kids have been pummeled by Fiji and the Fijians start to tire.

Not quite sure what Farrell has shown to be thought of as a test quality outside centre (mind you i thought the same of Reid getting caps for Ireland also).

How is Porter starting TH, the lad has barely played any (meaningful) games in that position? Rodney or Bealham - are they both injured or something?

Well we have never lost to Fiji and it is usually a thrashing. You can please everyone anyway.

NZ had never lost to Ireland up until a year ago (was there some fatigue with all the AIG promo's in Chicago for that game - did they take Ireland for granted?).
There should be some cohesion from most of these players having gone and played in the tour to Japan in the summer.
They could click and play great. Here's hoping.

SecretFly wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I'm not sure what Farrell has done to warrant an Irish cap but then again Dave Average is there yet again and he has a few. Speaking of Dave Average, what has Dave Average done to warrant another Irish cap?

Joe checked him out with a mirror, some callipers and a full body MRI...and the examination came back positive; 100% certainty that he wasn't Simon Zebo.  Dave done enough.

You'd wonder what a Connacht back3 player has to do to get selected for Ireland...... maybe if they started calling themselves project players and put on a bit of a foreign accent.

Ireland always put out a second string team v Fiji. You have to laugh. If Schmidt selected experienced players the usuals would all be whinging.

Well, the Welsh know we whinge anyway so we might as well live up to stereotypes.....................

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Personally I don't like the make up of that side. No respect given to Fiji, a gaggle of untested players thrown in at the deep end.  Feels like the bench has been set up to send on the cavalry to save the day in the final 25 minutes after the kids have been pummeled by Fiji and the Fijians start to tire.

Not quite sure what Farrell has shown to be thought of as a test quality outside centre (mind you i thought the same of Reid getting caps for Ireland also).

How is Porter starting TH, the lad has barely played any (meaningful) games in that position? Rodney or Bealham - are they both injured or something?

Well we have never lost to Fiji and it is usually a thrashing. You can please everyone anyway.

NZ had never lost to Ireland up until a year ago (was there some fatigue with all the AIG promo's in Chicago for that game - did they take Ireland for granted?).
There should be some cohesion from most of these players having gone and played in the tour to Japan in the summer.
They could click and play great. Here's hoping.

No NZ didn't take Ireland for granted. It was by and large a full strength team and rightly so. The previous game between the two teams ended in a last minute try win for NZ.

By contrast Ireland have thrashed Fiji with a second string side almost every time they have played them.

I can see a Georgia moment appearing out of nowhere.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Personally I don't like the make up of that side. No respect given to Fiji, a gaggle of untested players thrown in at the deep end.  Feels like the bench has been set up to send on the cavalry to save the day in the final 25 minutes after the kids have been pummeled by Fiji and the Fijians start to tire.

Not quite sure what Farrell has shown to be thought of as a test quality outside centre (mind you i thought the same of Reid getting caps for Ireland also).

How is Porter starting TH, the lad has barely played any (meaningful) games in that position? Rodney or Bealham - are they both injured or something?

Its right to give Porter a chance. He is highly rated so good to see they're going with the highly rated young players. We all complained in the past when Irish coaches went for the safe option of a 33 year old over a talented 21/22/23 year old so its good to see them back the likes of Porter.


I don't think Farrell is as bad as people are making out either. Hes had a bad start for Munster but he was in the top14 team of the season and I think Schmidt will just get him to do the basics and not try any flashy passes.

Saw it posted somewhere that the reason DK is picked is that like south Africa we have a quota system. It’s that at least one Kearney must be in every Irish match day squad.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Saw it posted somewhere that the reason DK is picked is that like south Africa we have a quota system. It’s that at least one Kearney must be in every Irish match day squad.

I have to say I'm fairly surprised about the team. It's a little all over the place, but I guess Schmidt wants everyone in the squad to get game-time. Shall we see Byrne on the bench next weekend then? Maybe. It will be an interesting game anyway, hopefully for the right reasons.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Saw it posted somewhere that the reason DK is picked is that like south Africa we have a quota system. It’s that at least one Kearney must be in every Irish match day squad.

...or a backroom official... or responsible for writing the Anthem ditty. A Kearney must be part of the package - true.

I forgot that this is the reason why we won't be seeing Adam Byrne in this fixture. I'm not even sure Schmidt is that much of a sadist:

http://www.the42.ie/fiji-team-nadolo-ireland-3701387-Nov2017/

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I forgot that this is the reason why we won't be seeing Adam Byrne in this fixture. I'm not even sure Schmidt is that much of a sadist:

http://www.the42.ie/fiji-team-nadolo-ireland-3701387-Nov2017/

The reason why Byrne isn't in the team is because he's not good enough (yet) He is behind Kearney in the pecking order for Leinster.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I forgot that this is the reason why we won't be seeing Adam Byrne in this fixture. I'm not even sure Schmidt is that much of a sadist:

http://www.the42.ie/fiji-team-nadolo-ireland-3701387-Nov2017/

The reason why Byrne isn't in the team is because he's not good enough (yet) He is behind Kearney in the pecking order for Leinster.

Interesting - where did you find that out? Byrne has started the most games on the wing for Leinster this season, has he not?

Even if he is, behind Kearney, still better playing him.

If not play Stockdale again - nothing to be gained playing Kearney

Kearney is a proven champion. Six nations and Heineken cup champion. He is still also only 28 and a very good player.

He has done his time, guys like Stockdale and Byrne have the physical attributes but need more time at Schmidt's metaphorical teet to be considered regulars.

DK isn't going to be a world cup starter but for games like this he is invaluable.

Kearney is the only player in the backline with over 4 starts.

Some posters saying its too inexperienced a team and we aren't taking Fiji seriously and others want to give a debut to another youngster. There has to be a balance.

Collapse2005 wrote:Kearney is a proven champion. Six nations and Heineken cup champion. He is still also only 28 and a very good player.

He has done his time, guys like Stockdale and Byrne have the physical attributes but need more time at Schmidt's metaphorical teet to be considered regulars.

DK isn't going to be a world cup starter but for games like this he is invaluable.

Stockdale has a lot more than just the physical attributes. And I think Stockdale would be just fine without Schmidt's input. He is a real talent and a gift to any coach.

Lol. Should Stockdale just set up his own team away from all the meanies that try to "coach" him?

I see the Fijian 11-15 is possibly the heaviest ever in international rugby, averaging over 17.5 st.

geoff999rugby wrote:Even if he is, behind Kearney, still better playing him.

If not play Stockdale again - nothing to be gained playing Kearney

Stockdale is now a prized asset. I don't think he'll be playing any unnecessary games for Ireland.

Golden wrote:Kearney is the only player in the backline with over 4 starts.

Some posters saying its too inexperienced a team and we aren't taking Fiji seriously and others want to give a debut to another youngster. There has to be a balance.

I actually agree that we should have a few experienced players in there, but I would have kept Henshaw at 13 and Rob at 15, since TOH was left at home. Dave Kearney is not the most inspiring option.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into the Dave Kearney bashing, I was only objecting to the claim that he was ahead of Byrne at Leinster. I'm not sure that's clear.

Fiji have always been a big side. Maybe they will surprise us this time but they are generally always useless too.

Collapse2005 wrote:Lol. Should Stockdale just set up his own team away from all the meanies that try to "coach" him?

You're a bit of an idiot.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Lol. Should Stockdale just set up his own team away from all the meanies that try to "coach" him?

You're a bit of an idiot.

Says the guy who doesn't think a young player needs the input of a world class coach to further his career.

Even Drico was learning from Schmidt almost every session at the end of has career according to the great man himself.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Lol. Should Stockdale just set up his own team away from all the meanies that try to "coach" him?

You're a bit of an idiot.

Says the guy who doesn't think a young player needs the input of a world class coach to further his career.

Even Drico was learning from Schmidt almost every session at the end of has career according to the great man himself.

You know fine well that wasn't the point I was making. I'll try again. Stockdale is more than just a physical specimen. He is one of those players who has a natural affinity for the game and can read it better than most. He has been doing it for Ulster before he had ever been coached by Schmidt. I'm sure he will learn more under Schmidt, but he is already way ahead of Dave Kearney, for example, without needing to be on Schmidt's "metaphorical teet"...