Ireland November Tests.

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Ireland November Tests.

Post by carpet baboon on Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

What would we like to see?
With ringrose definitely out, and henshaw and Payne looking unlikely, who shall step into the centre pairing?
If all our back row are fit whats the best combo?
Will tonner continue in the row or will he be usurped?

Lots of questions, and the season hasnt even started yet

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Artful_Dodger on Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:50 pm

Munster fan told me that Chris Farrell was out of his depth, fair?

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:56 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Munster fan told me that Chris Farrell was out of his depth, fair?

In this game? No. Nothing spectacular though. He doesn't have the pace at 13. McCloskey looked really good though.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Pot Hale on Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:01 pm

McCloskey, Farrell, Marmion, Carbery second half, McGrath, Herring - downtick

Healy, Toner, Murphy, Conan, Carbery first half, Sweetnam, Kearney, Conway - uptick.

Conway MOTM.
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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:04 pm

Pot Hale wrote:McCloskey, Farrell, Marmion, Carbery second half, McGrath, Herring - downtick

Healy, Toner, Murphy, Conan, Carbery first half, Sweetnam, Kearney, Conway - uptick.

Conway MOTM.  

Laugh

Could you explain the choices in bold?

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Pot Hale on Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:05 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:McCloskey, Farrell, Marmion, Carbery second half, McGrath, Herring - downtick

Healy, Toner, Murphy, Conan, Carbery first half, Sweetnam, Kearney, Conway - uptick.

Conway MOTM.  

Laugh

Could you explain the choices in bold?

Happy to. McCloskey got the ball and ran into players. Kearney didn’t.
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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Artful_Dodger on Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:McCloskey, Farrell, Marmion, Carbery second half, McGrath, Herring - downtick

Healy, Toner, Murphy, Conan, Carbery first half, Sweetnam, Kearney, Conway - uptick.

Conway MOTM.  

Laugh

Could you explain the choices in bold?

Happy to.  McCloskey got the ball and ran into players.  Kearney didn’t.

Isn't that exactly what Schmidt does with Henshaw at 12 as well though? In other words he gets his 12s to run into things?

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:10 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:McCloskey, Farrell, Marmion, Carbery second half, McGrath, Herring - downtick

Healy, Toner, Murphy, Conan, Carbery first half, Sweetnam, Kearney, Conway - uptick.

Conway MOTM.  

Laugh

Could you explain the choices in bold?

Happy to.  McCloskey got the ball and ran into players.  Kearney didn’t.

I suppose Kearney just gave the ball to them. And barely ran the ball at all, given that he made the least metres by far out of any Irish back outside Marmion. And McCloskey's defenders beaten, metres made and passing game that led to Irish tries must have been an optical illusion.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Pot Hale on Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:10 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:McCloskey, Farrell, Marmion, Carbery second half, McGrath, Herring - downtick

Healy, Toner, Murphy, Conan, Carbery first half, Sweetnam, Kearney, Conway - uptick.

Conway MOTM.  

Laugh

Could you explain the choices in bold?

Happy to.  McCloskey got the ball and ran into players.  Kearney didn’t.

Isn't that exactly what Schmidt does with Henshaw at 12 as well though?  In other words he gets his 12s to run into things?

It is what he did. As did Gatland. Henshaw is a 13 or possibly 15. McCloskey is a clundering 12.
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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Artful_Dodger on Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:13 pm

Clundering?

I don't know what that means, if it means that he is a crash ball 12 then he is much more than that. He's a very gifted offloader, part of the reason Schmidt hasn't been keen on him. Furthermore, if McCloskey does continue to feature in Schmidt's plans I think it is something which may be coached out of him.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Pot Hale on Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:17 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Clundering?

I don't know what that means, if it means that he is a crash ball 12 then he is much more than that.  He's a very gifted offloader, part of the reason Schmidt hasn't been keen on him.  Furthermore, if McCloskey does continue to feature in Schmidt's plans I think it is something which may be coached out of him.

I don’t think you need have any concerns about that happening.
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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:28 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:Clundering?

I don't know what that means, if it means that he is a crash ball 12 then he is much more than that.  He's a very gifted offloader, part of the reason Schmidt hasn't been keen on him.  Furthermore, if McCloskey does continue to feature in Schmidt's plans I think it is something which may be coached out of him.

I don’t think you need have any concerns about that happening.

Bizarre. Did you watch the Ireland-Fiji game? Here are the statistics of that game:

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=291262&league=289234

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Pot Hale on Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:45 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:Clundering?

I don't know what that means, if it means that he is a crash ball 12 then he is much more than that.  He's a very gifted offloader, part of the reason Schmidt hasn't been keen on him.  Furthermore, if McCloskey does continue to feature in Schmidt's plans I think it is something which may be coached out of him.

I don’t think you need have any concerns about that happening.

Bizarre. Did you watch the Ireland-Fiji game? Here are the statistics of that game:

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=291262&league=289234

Yes I did watch the Ireland-Fiji game - that's what we're discussing.

Stats about players don't reveal everything. You still need to watch them play. I don't think McCloskey was exceptional - Henshaw, Aki could do more of the same. Perhaps he'll get a chance to shine in other games.
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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:02 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:Clundering?

I don't know what that means, if it means that he is a crash ball 12 then he is much more than that.  He's a very gifted offloader, part of the reason Schmidt hasn't been keen on him.  Furthermore, if McCloskey does continue to feature in Schmidt's plans I think it is something which may be coached out of him.

I don’t think you need have any concerns about that happening.

Bizarre. Did you watch the Ireland-Fiji game? Here are the statistics of that game:

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=291262&league=289234

Yes I did watch the Ireland-Fiji game - that's what we're discussing.

Stats about players don't reveal everything.  You still need to watch them play.   I don't think McCloskey was exceptional - Henshaw, Aki could do more of the same.  Perhaps he'll get a chance to shine in other games.    

They don't reveal everything, no, but they can be used to prove others wrong in some cases. For example, McCloskey passed more than most, beat a couple of defenders, threw an offload and made a lot of ground. The stats don't tell you that one of those passes led to a try and that he made a lot of ground against a very physical Fijian defence. I don't think he was "exceptional" either, but he played very well for his second cap.

Meanwhile, unlike the rest of his teammates in the backs, Kearney didn't make many metres or clean breaks, didn't beat any defenders, and threw just one pass. I wonder was that his pass to the Fijians for their try? Stats don't reveal the answer to that either, I suppose.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:17 pm

I wonder if the Fjian team drew inspiration from the Fiji Bati who defeated NZ today in the rugby league world cup QF. The biggest upset in rugby league history.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Pot Hale on Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:26 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:Clundering?

I don't know what that means, if it means that he is a crash ball 12 then he is much more than that.  He's a very gifted offloader, part of the reason Schmidt hasn't been keen on him.  Furthermore, if McCloskey does continue to feature in Schmidt's plans I think it is something which may be coached out of him.

I don’t think you need have any concerns about that happening.

Bizarre. Did you watch the Ireland-Fiji game? Here are the statistics of that game:

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=291262&league=289234

Yes I did watch the Ireland-Fiji game - that's what we're discussing.

Stats about players don't reveal everything.  You still need to watch them play.   I don't think McCloskey was exceptional - Henshaw, Aki could do more of the same.  Perhaps he'll get a chance to shine in other games.    

They don't reveal everything, no, but they can be used to prove others wrong in some cases. For example, McCloskey passed more than most, beat a couple of defenders, threw an offload and made a lot of ground. The stats don't tell you that one of those passes led to a try and that he made a lot of ground against a very physical Fijian defence. I don't think he was "exceptional" either, but he played very well for his second cap.

Meanwhile, unlike the rest of his teammates in the backs, Kearney didn't make many metres or clean breaks, didn't beat any defenders, and threw just one pass. I wonder was that his pass to the Fijians for their try? Stats don't reveal the answer to that either, I suppose.

I wasn't comparing them head to head.  That's in your head.   Kearney's defence I suspect was best of the back three and he did score a try.   And yes he threw an errant pass for Fiji to score a try but also tackled to deny one and got himself on the scoreboard which is why I gave him an uptick.   Do I think that makes him first pick for a wing spot - nope.  But did better than expected by me.
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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Pete330v2 on Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:54 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:Munster fan told me that Chris Farrell was out of his depth, fair?

In this game? No. Nothing spectacular though. He doesn't have the pace at 13. McCloskey looked really good though.

There was one player that was way out of his depth. I don't like to name names but it rhymes with Starmion.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by SecretFly on Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:04 pm

Well that game went roughly as expected.  I was hoping I was wrong and of course I enjoyed  most of the first half, but even before Fiji got in close to the end of that 1st half, the team was beginning to show the pressure of just being too loaded with lesser players and no real genuine anchor players(leaders) to keep the rhythms and attention to detail.

I began to worry because there wasn't a lot of genuine creativity on the bench either and so if we began to seriously disintegrate before those bench players came on, I wasn't certain they'd have enough to drag it back.  But drag it back they just about did, thankfully.  

That was too close to the bone.  I know the game was meant to be a pressure game for those chosen but they kinda melted under it as the game progressed.  Just two or three too many irregulars to be able to sustain the right kinds of concentration when things got tight.

But still - a win is a win and maybe it's a better result than a slaughter - it'll certainly make training and selection for the Argentina game a more sober affair.  Feet back on the ground after the South Africa game big time.  Actually, just the right place to be - We might be getting close to three players in every position as the mantra says, but I'm sure none of us are so reassured about the quality.  The glorious tale of Hot and Cold Ireland continues.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by SecretFly on Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:05 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:Munster fan told me that Chris Farrell was out of his depth, fair?

In this game? No. Nothing spectacular though. He doesn't have the pace at 13. McCloskey looked really good though.

There was one player that was way out of his depth. I don't like to name names but it rhymes with Starmion.

?

Jesus, it seems we've all been looking at different games today, not just Pot Cool

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Pot Hale on Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:10 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:Munster fan told me that Chris Farrell was out of his depth, fair?

In this game? No. Nothing spectacular though. He doesn't have the pace at 13. McCloskey looked really good though.

There was one player that was way out of his depth. I don't like to name names but it rhymes with Starmion.

Yep - Marmite was poor.   He's had better games but that won't have endeared him to the Powers That Be.  McGrath is probably a better fit for someone like Carbery at 10, although I would like to see John Cooney get a run-out as the 4th choice SH and maybe move up the ranks a bit.   I've liked him at Ulster so far this season.   He's in my RWC 60.

1. McGrath, Healy, Kilcoyne, (Denis Buckley?)
2. Best, Scannell, Tracy, Herring, Cronin, (Dave Heffernan?)
3. Furlong, Ryan, Porter, Bealham
4. Henderson, Dillane, Treadwell, Roux
5. Toner, J Ryan, Holland, (Mick Kearney?), (Ross Molony?)
6. Ruddock, O'Mahony, Murphy, Reidy
7. O'Brien, vd Flier, Leavy, O'Donnell
8. Heaslip, Stander, Conan, O'Donoghue, (Deegan?)
9. Murray, Marmion, McGrath, (John Cooney?)
10. Sexton, Carbery, Keatley, Bleyendaal, (Madigan?)
11. Stockdale, Gilroy, Zebo, Healy, McFadden
12. Aki, McCloskey, Marshall, (Rory Scannell?)
13. Ringrose, Henshaw, Farrell, (R O'Loughlin?)
14. Earls, Sweetnam, D Kearney, Byrne
15. R Kearney, Conway, Payne, O'Halloran.

31 of those to get on the plane for Tokyo.
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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Pete330v2 on Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:50 pm

The drop off from Murray to Marmion is huge. It's up to McGrath and Cooney to prove they are better. Joe has always been slow to make such changes but going on that display today he may be tempted to speed things up.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Artful_Dodger on Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:52 pm

From what I've heard there is a good chance we'll never see Payne again, for anyone be it Ulster or Ireland. What is the status on Heaslip?

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Pot Hale on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:09 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:From what I've heard there is a good chance we'll never see Payne again, for anyone be it Ulster or Ireland.  What is the status on Heaslip?

Not too far from that diagnosis. He had a second back op earlier this month and it's a wait and see but it could end up in retirement.
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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by asoreleftshoulder on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:10 pm

Poor 2nd half,we really should have done better but it was a useful game.Conway has stepped up since he’s got his chance.Herring and Ruddock were very good too and McCloskey played well bar one awful offload into touch early on.Carbery showed why he’s rated so highly with some lovely touches of class but he’s still got a way to go before he will challenge Sexton.He didn’t command the game like a 10 should,maybe 15 is a better fit for now.
Marmion was disappointing,his box kicks went really poor and he sniped twice and was turned over both times. Dillane,Murphy,Conan and Farrell were quiet while the props were very good in the tight but didn’t really show up in the loose.
Healy was exceptional in his time on the pitch,if he continued on his trajectory he’ll be back to best LH prop in the world.

Edit: Oh yeah good to see S.A. showing that they’re still a decent (nothing special but bad teams don’t win in Paris)side and we can be a bit happier that last week we were very good more than they were very bad.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:43 pm

Oh oh. Things must be really bad if ASLS is being rolled out to make excuses not only for the Fiji game but last week as well

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by asoreleftshoulder on Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:13 am

Yeah good one!

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by The Great Aukster on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:30 am

Can't say I've ever been as glad to see Keatley come on the pitch before. Maybe it was Marmion putting him under pressure but Carberry looked out of his depth at 10 and on that evidence Cullen hasn't got it wrong this season.
Marmion was especially disappointing and surprisingly absent behind the breakdown on too many occasions, he is looking like a bench only option.
The pack did well enough with Conan the pick while in contrast Dillane and Murphy looked off the pace.
McCloskey guarantees passage over the gainline, and was often double tackled as per his job to suck in the defence, but such was the lack of nous around him there was no one who could capitalise.
In that regard Farrell was a big let down. He is in the carthorse mould build for strength rather than speed and is simply too slow for a Test 13. The only reason I can think he was selected was to fulfil an agreement made to get him back from France.
Dave Kearney for all his lack of cutting edge was an important defensive cog. His role was to allow Conway more freedom to move forward and so his inclusion had a big influence on the game. The intercept pass was idiotic though and might derail any further Test ambitions.
Sweetnam had another good showing and deserves more experience.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:11 pm

Engine#4 wrote:The irony of Ulster fans giving out about provinvcial sycophancy given the annual campaigns to elect one of their backs as the best thing sliced bread.

14/15 - Olding
15/16 - McCloskey
16/17 - Jackson
17/18 - Stockdale

Some day Ulster will give us a world class back.

Straw man - because no one has claimed they are World Class.
By the way in the last decade Tommy Bowe has been Irelands best winger

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:15 pm

Pot Hale wrote:McCloskey, Farrell, Marmion, Carbery second half, McGrath, Herring - downtick

Healy, Toner, Murphy, Conan, Carbery first half, Sweetnam, Kearney, Conway - uptick.

Conway MOTM.  

I watched a different game

Farrell, Kearney, Toner, Murphy, McGrath, Marmion, Dillane - downtick

McCloskey,  Healy, Conan, Conway  - uptick.

Conway MOTM.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Don Alfonso on Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:40 pm

I'd agree for the most part, Geoff. Conan scored a nice try but our breakdown was an absolute mess and he has to take some blame for that.i did think Ruddock was very good, but on his own - second rows and other back rows not much help. Herring was pretty good as well.

Carberry showed some outrageous skill, but in terms of actual game management, I thought he was outplayed by his opposite number, who did more to help a less well coached team.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:30 pm

Don agree re Ruddock and Herring I was very tempted to put them in the uptick category

For me the locks and Murphy were physically underpowered and offered virtually nothing at the breakdown.

On Carbery Schmidt as good as said Keatley did a better job when he came on

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by profitius on Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:40 pm

Carbery should be getting some gametime at 10 for Leinster. I mean its hard to control a game of international rugby at 10 if he has not played there since 2016. All he is lacking is experience and a higher goal kicking percentage but he is extremely talented showed that yesterday in the first half especially.


I thought McCloskey and Sweetnam were good yesterday and they demonstrate what they can do. Conway deserved motm. Each of those players made one or two mistakes but that was expected when you have a bunch of newish caps and new combinations etc. In hindsight Andrew Trimble would have been a better option than D Kearney. People might say Trimble isn't the future but neither is D Kearney and he was starting because he is reliable and knows the plays etc. Schmidt isn't a fan of TOH it seems.


The pack were poor overall especially with the breakdown. It would have been a different story if some of Niall Scannell, John Ryan, James Ryan, Leavy and VDF were fit but they were not.


So it was a poor team performance but some individuals shone. Fiji are better than generally viewed and they're an unusual team in the sense that their backs are nearly as big as forwards and they can score from anywhere.


Good: Conway, McCluskey, Sweetnam, Ruddock,
Average: Toner, McGrath, Porter, Herring, Murphy, Carbery, Farrell, Conan
Poor: Marmion, Dillane, D Kearney,


Furlong and especially made a big impact when they came on. Its fair to say Healy is back to his best. Treadwell played well too and could leapfrog Dillane. The other subs were solid and helped close out the game.
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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by SecretFly on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:36 pm

Look guys, Joe Schmidt is a coach and we all know his standards.... so - the number of times one or two lone players were left to get on with the breakdown themselves suggests that there was much more to that seemingly weak area than meets the eye.  I think there must have been some instruction on strategy that kept players out - you don't do that so often in an Irish side that is coached by Schmidt unless A. - you want a hairdryer in the teeth in the dressingroom or B. - you are following orders as closely as you can lest you anger the boss.

So there just has to be more to it than Irish players constantly finding themselves isolated and pushed off balls.  Joe said both before the game and after the game that yes, the objective of the team he selected was to place players under pressure.  You can do that a number of ways.  You can choose a top-heavy inexperienced team at this level - he did that.  And you can lay down orders about aspects of the game - including breakdown.

He virtually admitted it - he wanted players to really feel the pressure but didn't expect the gamble to be so close to the edge of a loss.  He danced with fate and probably learned a lot about individual players but his methods almost lost us the game.  Every team needs solid Leaders at the highest level - this wasn't an Ireland A side, a Wolfhounds Ireland, a Developing Ireland - it was Ireland, against a pretty confident and highly skilled and instinctive Fiji - and the game needed genuine strong leadership on the team from the very first seconds.  It didn't have it.  You can only blame the flustered and nervy individual players so much... let some of them play with more of the 'undroppables' and then let's judge them more accurately

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:44 pm

So you’re saying joe is a sh1t coach?

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by SecretFly on Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:55 pm

No.  I'm saying it seems a lot of people in here are pretending that players coached by Joe Schmidt simply refused to engage in a more robust 80 minutes of 'ruck resourcing' Whistle  - despite a few of those younger, less experienced players suggesting they were confident about their chances in the game given the good week of training.

So they were all avoiding heavy hitting and plentiful involvement in those clearouts in training and yet St Joseph is happy as Larry and still picks them?

Not on your life.

Joe is a good coach, his record says so. I don't always like his ways or his methods but then who the hell am I? A 606 mouthpiece.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Don Alfonso on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:07 pm

Or alternatively, an Irish pack that was, for the most part, 2nd/3rd choice, found itself shoved around by some powerful Fijians who have more experience playing together.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:12 pm

The pack started with six players from the same province. How much playing time together did/do the Fiji pack have?

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by SecretFly on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:30 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Or alternatively, an Irish pack that was, for the most part, 2nd/3rd choice, found itself shoved around by some powerful Fijians who have more experience playing together.

That still leaves Joe Schimdt out of the equation, Don - and I don't buy it that he stayed out of the equation, as not only were 2nd/3rd choice being shoved around, on quite a number of occasions they didn't even bother to engage.  
You don't do that in a team Joe Schmidt coaches unless there are other instructions given to you that's keeping you out.
I seem to remember more than one occasion when Dillane, for example, was glaring left to do the biz on virtually his own.  You don't do that on an Irish side that's been trained by Joe Schmidt all week in advance unless the plan involves people not over committing to those breakdowns.

But the papers love the stories about players not being good enough.  So be it, I see coaching all over that pressure game.... but Joe got the balance wrong and it turned into just Too Much pressure because Fiji were more connected than he expected them to be.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Don Alfonso on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:30 pm

At international level? A lot more than the Irish boys. Conan gave a interview in the 42.ie talking about how different it was playing international rugby - the intensity, the pressure, having much less time in your decision-making. How much of a step up it is. He, Porter, Murphy have little experience of it, regardless of who they're playing with. Same goes for non-Leinster boys Herring and Dillane.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Don Alfonso on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:32 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Or alternatively, an Irish pack that was, for the most part, 2nd/3rd choice, found itself shoved around by some powerful Fijians who have more experience playing together.

That still leaves Joe Schimdt out of the equation, Don - and I don't buy it that he stayed out of the equation, as not only were 2nd/3rd choice being shoved around, on quite a number of occasions they didn't even bother to engage.  
You don't do that in a team Joe Schmidt coaches unless there are other instructions given to you that's keeping you out.
I seem to remember more than one occasion when Dillane, for example, was glaring left to do the biz on virtually his own.  You don't do that on an Irish side that's been trained by Joe Schmidt all week in advance unless the plan involves people not over committing to those breakdowns.

But the papers love the stories about players not being good enough.  So be it, I see coaching all over that pressure game.... but Joe got the balance wrong and it turned into just Too Much pressure because Fiji were more connected than he expected them to be.

And you're leaving the entire Fijian team and coaching set-up out of the equation. So maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by SecretFly on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:41 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Or alternatively, an Irish pack that was, for the most part, 2nd/3rd choice, found itself shoved around by some powerful Fijians who have more experience playing together.

That still leaves Joe Schimdt out of the equation, Don - and I don't buy it that he stayed out of the equation, as not only were 2nd/3rd choice being shoved around, on quite a number of occasions they didn't even bother to engage.  
You don't do that in a team Joe Schmidt coaches unless there are other instructions given to you that's keeping you out.
I seem to remember more than one occasion when Dillane, for example, was glaring left to do the biz on virtually his own.  You don't do that on an Irish side that's been trained by Joe Schmidt all week in advance unless the plan involves people not over committing to those breakdowns.

But the papers love the stories about players not being good enough.  So be it, I see coaching all over that pressure game.... but Joe got the balance wrong and it turned into just Too Much pressure because Fiji were more connected than he expected them to be.

And you're leaving the entire Fijian team and coaching set-up out of the equation. So maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.

The Fijians have nothing to do with non-engagement from Irish players in breakdown situations - they don't have a thing to do with that unless they are holding a whole herd of Irish players back and down way off the ball.  
The Irish are responsible for their own tempo and numbers into those areas.  They noticeably didn't play it hard enough.

Yet what do you think might be one of the main things Joe Schmidt might try to be doing with 2nd/3rd string Irish players during training week if he wanted them playing it his way?  Virtually the entire week would be frameworked around the importance of the breakdown and being honest there, right?  We'd all suspect Joe would be ultra tight on telling 2nd/3rd string players that's where they have to impress him with workrate.  So - he watched them train and was happy that they were falling away and not engaging???

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by SecretFly on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:44 pm

Plus Cool ...I did put the Fijians into the equation, I said they were more connected than Joe expected them to be.  That's their part - they were there not just to throw a ball around but to win it - and they nearly did.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Don Alfonso on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:56 pm

So Joe told the not to engage at the breakdown so he cloud test their mettle under pressure? I don't buy that.

I think it's more that you have an unbalanced pack, which Joe was prepared to risk because it is possibly the most forgiving game in terms of taking chances (counts for nothing, at home, against relatively weak opposition). I wouldn't particularly rate any of the backrow or second row as being really good at the breakdown. And they were being absolutely pummelled physically.

And was Joe happy? He didn't slag then off afterwards, but then the only player he does that to is Luke Marshall.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by SecretFly on Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:06 am

We're not great buyers here, Don, you and I - because this seems to be a poker game and I'm buying none of that. Explain non-engagement.... not weakness, not unbalanced pack, not backrows or second rows.... explain how Joe was content to let a team on the field that you say wasn't up to anything - including the pressure Joe wanted to put them under?

You do not non-engage to such an extent in a Joe Schmidt team unless there are instructions that other things are more important, or that other things are being emphasised, like perhaps keeping width defensively and not being sucked in. There are a number of ways a coach could put young players under pressure in a game. But the key is, he and it seems even a lot of 'we' in advance of the game, didn't feel Fiji would have enough to turn the screw to the extent that they did.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Golden on Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:43 am

Carbery broke his arm during the match so will be out for a considerable amount of time. Keatley will be on the bench against Arg. Whose 3rd choice now? Must be Byrne/Carty.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Collapse2005 on Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:56 am

Great win for Ireland. 6 game win streak now and 11 wins from the last 14 games 2016-2017. We are definitely getting stronger.

The biggest form blip was the 15-16 season, loss to Argentina and post WC transition. All back on track now and looking good to challenge for the 2018 six nations which looks set to be the strongest in history.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by SecretFly on Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:51 pm

Let me be the first...the very first... to say that I think Scotland will be the dark horses of Six Nations 2018!

Yahoo  I did it!  I got it in first!

...where's me prize? mad

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:50 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:McCloskey, Farrell, Marmion, Carbery second half, McGrath, Herring - downtick

Healy, Toner, Murphy, Conan, Carbery first half, Sweetnam, Kearney, Conway - uptick.

Conway MOTM.  

I watched a different game

Farrell, Kearney, Toner, Murphy, McGrath, Marmion, Dillane - downtick

McCloskey,  Healy, Conan, Conway  - uptick.

Conway MOTM.

I'd put Porter in the uptick bucket, purely from a development point of view, 21 years of age, only converted to TH a year ago. His part of set pieces looked solid. Wasn't showing much in open play. But I came away from that game thinking I wouldn't be worried to see his name on the bench come the 6Ns and he could be a competitive starting option by next year (peaking towards a rwc).

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Pete330v2 on Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:16 pm

SecretFly wrote:Let me be the first...the very first... to say that I think Scotland will be the dark horses of Six Nations 2018!

Yahoo  I did it!  I got it in first!

...where's me prize? mad

Too late fly, someone already said it a while back on another thread. Their reason was the fact that Scotland had so few players on the Lions tour Smile

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by geoff999rugby on Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:38 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:McCloskey, Farrell, Marmion, Carbery second half, McGrath, Herring - downtick

Healy, Toner, Murphy, Conan, Carbery first half, Sweetnam, Kearney, Conway - uptick.

Conway MOTM.  

I watched a different game

Farrell, Kearney, Toner, Murphy, McGrath, Marmion, Dillane - downtick

McCloskey,  Healy, Conan, Conway  - uptick.

Conway MOTM.

I'd put Porter in the uptick bucket, purely from a development point of view, 21 years of age, only converted to TH a year ago. His part of set pieces looked solid.  Wasn't showing much in open play. But I came away from that game thinking I wouldn't be worried to see his name on the bench come the 6Ns and he could be a competitive starting option by next year (peaking towards a rwc).

I would concur with that Porter was solid and to be fair Sweetnam didn't do much wrong either.
For me the 7 players I listed were the big under performers.
Trouble is 4 were forwards and one was the scrum half - with a 10 who didn't manage the game well in the 2nd half and that's makes for a problem.
Add to that Porter who was ok in the scrum but didn't do much in the loose and you have a problem.
Furlong, Stander, but especially Healy, made a big impact when they came on - Treadwell was a step up as well, although not on long

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

Post by Marshes on Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:22 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:The drop off from Murray to Marmion is huge. It's up to McGrath and Cooney to prove they are better. Joe has always been slow to make such changes but going on that display today he may be tempted to speed things up.

Yeah not Marms best performance to be honest, but I don't think it proves he isn't up to the required level, particularly when we have seem him play to the required level vs England, on the summer tour, and last week against South Africa. Really that's the first time in a Irish jersey that he has disappointed for me, but if that opens the door for one of the other two he can't complain too much. Would be harsh to drop him for McGrath who is in no position to be pointing fingers about consistency. I'd still have him as Murray's backup, lets see what was learned if he gets time against Argentina.

Looking at the rest of the performances aside from Conway and McCloskey I would say there are plenty of work ons for the rest of the backs, and when it's a whole line change I'm not surprised the performance we saw some disjointed performances.

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Re: Ireland November Tests.

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