The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

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The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:05 am

First topic message reminder :

First article I came across on the Web.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:13 pm

wolfball wrote:
wayne wrote:
wolfball wrote:The main questions left are:

1. Derby games?
2. Make up of conferences?
3. The league schedule

1) Wolfball, the Fail (Western Mail) also mention that there will be no Derby games lost, so a bit more meat on the bone. If it's true?

I am hearing something that is a cut the baby down the middle solution that will annoy everyone - derbys retained, but half the "other conference" derbys are basically friendlies that don't count towards the league. Really hope that is not true...

Just been told from someone at the Scarlets meeting with the supporters group, that we are being told that the derbies WILL be part of the real league fixtures and not friendlies.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:22 pm

£6m seems less than what was mentioned before and less than what the league should be getting considering that Super Sport are invested in the Kings and would lose that without the Pro12

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Sin é on Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:12 pm

Kingshu wrote:Nothing decided if SA sides will get in ECC, I guess with the potential money they could bring and with the sponsors wishing thier products to be viewed by a wider market the pressure from the sponsors will be to include them. ie Guinness are happy the have them in the Pro 14 as it gives Guinness more advertisment in Africa.

I guess at the end of the season the top seven in an overall table would go through, the one from each Union has been removed, (think the play offs have been removed with a French and English team)

Could also have the top 3 in each conference qualify and go into the playoffs, while 4th and 5th in each conference play off for the final spot?

I head somewhere that there is a technical, legal obstacle with the Champs Cup. Seems the Constitution say that the participating teams are referenced as playing in the 6 Nations. I presume that could be changed if they wanted to.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:25 pm

Sin é wrote:
Kingshu wrote:Nothing decided if SA sides will get in ECC, I guess with the potential money they could bring and with the sponsors wishing thier products to be viewed by a wider market the pressure from the sponsors will be to include them. ie Guinness are happy the have them in the Pro 14 as it gives Guinness more advertisment in Africa.

I guess at the end of the season the top seven in an overall table would go through, the one from each Union has been removed, (think the play offs have been removed with a French and English team)

Could also have the top 3 in each conference qualify and go into the playoffs, while 4th and 5th in each conference play off for the final spot?

I head somewhere that there is a technical, legal obstacle with the Champs Cup. Seems the Constitution say that the participating teams are referenced as playing in the 6 Nations. I presume that could be changed if they wanted to.

Dont know if thats true for the 16/17 season a place in the RCC was awarded to the 2015–16 European Rugby Challenge Cup winners (Montpellier), Yenisey-STM were in the challange cup that year, if they had won it they would have got that place instead of Montpellier. Don't think the rule could be written that the Chllenge cup winners get a place in RCC as long as they are a 6 nations Unions side.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:16 pm

Truth is, as the Pro14 proves in its history, that if there is enough money (or potential for money), nothing is insurmountable.  However, if the SA sides were to be brought into the European Cup umbrella it'd have to be in both tiers that the Pro14 sides enter.  

Guessing the sad truth is the lesser Europeans would get bought out, with the promise they can come back via the third tier if they are good enough.


Last edited by ScarletSpiderman on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:17 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Can't spell for toffee)
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by wolfball on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:22 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
wolfball wrote:
wayne wrote:
wolfball wrote:The main questions left are:

1. Derby games?
2. Make up of conferences?
3. The league schedule

1) Wolfball, the Fail (Western Mail) also mention that there will be no Derby games lost, so a bit more meat on the bone. If it's true?

I am hearing something that is a cut the baby down the middle solution that will annoy everyone - derbys retained, but half the "other conference" derbys are basically friendlies that don't count towards the league. Really hope that is not true...

Just been told from someone at the Scarlets meeting with the supporters group, that we are being told that the derbies WILL be part of the real league fixtures and not friendlies.

yeah hearing that now too. Seems there may be derby games retained as is for wales/ireland, and 3 (!) derby games for all the other teams to give 20 league games total.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by St John The Enforcer on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:26 am

21

12 + 7 + 2 = 21

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by wolfball on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:29 am

St John The Enforcer wrote:21

12 + 7 + 2 = 21

Apologies, you are right.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:53 am

Think this year could be very unfair, in that you will maybe get situations like Glasgow in the Playoffs, who played Edinburgh an extra 2 times, and Leinster just once at home. While Ulster who in the same conference have instead have extra games against Leinster (away) and Connacht (home) and play Edinburgh just once away.


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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:23 am

Things aren't looking good in Italy, Zebres players apparently haven't been paid for two months and have yet to start preseason

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:18 am

marty2086 wrote:Things aren't looking good in Italy, Zebres players apparently haven't been paid for two months and have yet to start preseason

Jeez, if true that's really bad. I remember the times when the Italian teams actually had a positive impact on the league.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by profitius on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:29 am

marty2086 wrote:Things aren't looking good in Italy, Zebres players apparently haven't been paid for two months and have yet to start preseason


And their squad looks a lot weaker, player wise.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:34 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Things aren't looking good in Italy, Zebres players apparently haven't been paid for two months and have yet to start preseason

Jeez, if true that's really bad. I remember the times when the Italian teams actually had a positive impact on the league.

They've just been taken over by the FIR, it was just completed recently. Problem is that Padovani has apparently jumped to Toulon because of how it came about.

I don't know how things went down legally but whatever happened it invalidated his contract according to him and his people. That could well be the case with everyone at Zebre and they have no players under contract or have to resign them all

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:32 pm

Kingshu wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Kingshu wrote:Nothing decided if SA sides will get in ECC, I guess with the potential money they could bring and with the sponsors wishing thier products to be viewed by a wider market the pressure from the sponsors will be to include them. ie Guinness are happy the have them in the Pro 14 as it gives Guinness more advertisment in Africa.

I guess at the end of the season the top seven in an overall table would go through, the one from each Union has been removed, (think the play offs have been removed with a French and English team)

Could also have the top 3 in each conference qualify and go into the playoffs, while 4th and 5th in each conference play off for the final spot?

I head somewhere that there is a technical, legal obstacle with the Champs Cup. Seems the Constitution say that the participating teams are referenced as playing in the 6 Nations. I presume that could be changed if they wanted to.

Dont know if thats true for the 16/17 season a place in the RCC was awarded to the 2015–16 European Rugby Challenge Cup winners (Montpellier), Yenisey-STM were in the challange cup that year, if they had won it they would have got that place instead of Montpellier. Don't think the rule could be written that the Chllenge cup winners get a place in RCC as long as they are a 6 nations Unions side.

I don't imagine they will be in the RCC this year though, they could do with the rest time. If this goes well I can see the SARU wanting all their teams to play in this league.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:38 pm

OK, I know it's WOL, and my fellow Welsh brethren on here do not like it, but here are a few headlines that can add to this thread:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/heres-how-much-south-african-13353210

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-set-retain-full-13351219

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:37 pm


Celtic Rugby can confirm that advanced & positive discussions are taking place with the South African Rugby Union regarding the introduction of 2 teams into an expanded Guinness PRO12 Championship.

Given the proximity of the 2017/18 season start, a final decision on this potential expansion will be confirmed as soon as practical.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:04 pm

It's a 7-team conference split like mentioned, 1 of each plus 2 of each from Ireland and Wales. All teams will play each other at least once but it also means that some teams play more games, so I won't fully understand the format until we see a fixture list. The top team from each conference will get a home quarter final for the play-off, while the next two best runners-up in each conference play in a play-off to make the final play-off.... At least that's what I read.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by St John The Enforcer on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:38 pm

mikey_dragon wrote: The top team from each conference will get a home quarter semi final for the play-off, while the next two best runners-up in each conference play in a play-off to make the final play-off.... semi final  
At least that's what I read.

The same as the French Barage system except with conferences.

Top 2 teams get a week off while 2nd plays 6th and 3rd plays 5th for entry to the semis. Or in this case 2nd in one conference plays 3rd in the other.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:52 pm

Yeah that's it St John, think I was confused with all those proposed play-offs. Seems a bit counter-productive if the top 2 teams get more time off, unless that's considered more a motivator to get that top spot.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:28 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah that's it St John, think I was confused with all those proposed play-offs. Seems a bit counter-productive if the top 2 teams get more time off, unless that's considered more a motivator to get that top spot.

Week off plus a game less to make the semi finals, 2nd and 3rd in each conference have to play off to meet them. Think its a fine motivator.

I wonder does the top team also get a home semi final against the winner of 2nd/3rd?

I would also say that the top 3 in each conference get the European spots, and 4th in each play off against each other over 2 legs for the 7th final spot.

If gives teams from 1st-4th something to play for at the end of the season.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:29 pm

The Irish and Welsh teams stand to play 21 games a season whilst the rest all play 20, is this correct ? If so, how does that work ?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by wayne on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:45 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The Irish and Welsh teams stand to play 21 games a season whilst the rest all play 20, is this correct ? If so, how does that work ?

No, from what I understand, the countries with 2 teams, SA, ITALY, SCOTLAND, their teams play each other 3 times

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by BigGee on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:53 pm

Tom English on the money as usual.

It is basically adapt or die, this league needs to work!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40653822


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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:57 pm

wayne wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Irish and Welsh teams stand to play 21 games a season whilst the rest all play 20, is this correct ? If so, how does that work ?

No, from what I understand, the countries with 2 teams, SA, ITALY, SCOTLAND, their teams play each other 3 times

Ah, that explains it. Very Happy

Diolch yn fawr wayne.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:05 pm

wayne wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Irish and Welsh teams stand to play 21 games a season whilst the rest all play 20, is this correct ? If so, how does that work ?

No, from what I understand, the countries with 2 teams, SA, ITALY, SCOTLAND, their teams play each other 3 times

So the games that are apparently of most importance to some fans will increase plus an increase in tv income

That's got to confuse a few on here Shocked

Any word on how the third game wil be designated? Would an extra Welsh derby be Judgement Day at former MS for example while keeping home and away games?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RiscaGame on Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:27 pm

That would certainly make sense. I'd certainly love to see Scarlets come back to Rodney Parade again.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:32 pm

Guessing if Jusgement say is to survive then it woll be the inter-conference game when the Dragons and Blues are home against the Scarlets and Ospreys. Especially seeing as the union now own the Dragons. If it were the inter-conference match, I guess they would be able to market it as a 'rarer' thing to the non-geared up public too.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by wayne on Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
wayne wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Irish and Welsh teams stand to play 21 games a season whilst the rest all play 20, is this correct ? If so, how does that work ?

No, from what I understand, the countries with 2 teams, SA, ITALY, SCOTLAND, their teams play each other 3 times

Ah, that explains it. Very Happy

Diolch yn fawr wayne.

Dim problemau Lord, it is on the BBC webpage in the topic Pro12 expansion: Fixture list would protect derby matches.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Don Alfonso on Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:06 pm

I think that could end up in some horribly uneven fixture lists. Don't want to lose the playoffs, which I think have definitely added something, but there's a very good chance you won't end up with the actual four best teams in the semis.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pot Hale on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:19 am

6From BBC report:
"The six year deal is likely to benefit the league to the tune of an extra £6m per season from SARU and additional TV income."

Presume that means £6m from SARU (12x£500k per team to include cover travel/logistics costs) plus whatever SuperSport are willing to pay to cover 12 home conference matches plus 3 derby matches, plus a further 6 'other conference' matches. Previous reports have indicated the total deal value is £12m per annum, which would put the TV annual deal also at £6m.

Leaving aside the Italians, that would set a hefty price tag increase for the Irish and Scottish to match. Or would Sky be willing to match that for a greater number of games in a six-year deal?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:52 pm

So under this new system, will certain teams have to play more matches away from home than other teams do, in a single regular season?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by profitius on Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:34 pm

Pot Hale wrote:6From BBC report:
"The six year deal is likely to benefit the league to the tune of an extra £6m per season from SARU and additional TV income."

Presume that means £6m from SARU (12x£500k per team to include cover travel/logistics costs) plus whatever SuperSport are willing to pay to cover 12 home conference matches plus 3 derby matches, plus a further 6 'other conference' matches.  Previous reports have indicated the total deal value is £12m per annum, which would put the TV annual deal also at £6m.

Leaving aside the Italians, that would set a hefty price tag increase for the Irish and Scottish to match.  Or would Sky be willing to match that for a greater number of games in a six-year deal?  


Eir sport might bid for it if its available to UK customers. They've gone on record to say they're interested. Maybe someone like Eurosport will also be interested. They've already dipped their toe in the water by showing the Italian sides. Hopefully that doesn't turn them off!
Personally I think Sky will be very interested because they've very little rugby union left. They might even be a bit desperate now since they lost the European cup rights to BT. It goes without saying that the more bidders the better.


If none of those want its I think TV3 will look to show it in Ireland. I doubt they'll offer much though because they know TG4 can't afford too much. Thats the problem with a lack of competition.


There could be an outside the box option of a netflix like sports service. Maybe thats a few years away but I can see something like that in the future where you pay for individual leagues or individual matches.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:42 pm

profitius wrote:
There could be an outside the box option of a netflix like sports service. Maybe thats a few years away but I can see something like that in the future where you pay for individual leagues or individual matches.

Already is one called Rugby Pass, not available in most countries though because of tv rights but they are growing

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Stone Motif on Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:25 pm

RiscaGame wrote:That would certainly make sense. I'd certainly love to see Scarlets come back to Rodney Parade again.

Me too. With the floodgates opened up for the hordes to descend from Abertillery, Blackwood, Trevethin etc an annual reminder of the perils of marrying your cousin could bring enormous benefits to the Gwent gene pool.


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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by munkian on Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:44 pm

I have hazy memories of the last time the Turkish hordes descended on Dave Parade.

I'm pretty sure we won mind. I may have flipped off their team coach....
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:05 pm

I remember an absolutely horrible match against the Turks on New Year's Day. It seemed to go on for hours, both teams played like sh!t, and we lost.

I also remember them coming in Jonathan Davies's first season for them and he was superb.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by munkian on Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:52 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I remember an absolutely horrible match against the Turks on New Year's Day. It seemed to go on for hours, both teams played like sh!t, and we lost.

I also remember them coming in Jonathan Davies's first season for them and he was superb.

The last Turk game I went to had a beer festival. That's all I got...
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:16 am

munkian wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I remember an absolutely horrible match against the Turks on New Year's Day. It seemed to go on for hours, both teams played like sh!t, and we lost.

I also remember them coming in Jonathan Davies's first season for them and he was superb.

The last Turk game I went to had a beer festival. That's all I got...

Two years ago we played you up there in a pre-season friendly (think that had a beer festival). I remember being the only red shirt amongst the dragons fans (bought tickets in the wrong stand), and I tired to start a 'he knocked it on' following a Dragons knock on, only to suddenly feel a load of eyes upon me.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by munkian on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:27 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
munkian wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I remember an absolutely horrible match against the Turks on New Year's Day. It seemed to go on for hours, both teams played like sh!t, and we lost.

I also remember them coming in Jonathan Davies's first season for them and he was superb.

The last Turk game I went to had a beer festival. That's all I got...

Two years ago we played you up there in a pre-season friendly (think that had a beer festival).  I remember being the only red shirt amongst the dragons fans (bought tickets in the wrong stand), and I tired to start a 'he knocked it on' following a Dragons knock on, only to suddenly feel a load of eyes upon me.

Least it was eyes not size 10s Smile
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:16 am

Intresting that the odds makers have Cheetahs chances of winning the Pro 12 as equal to Ospreys, Ulster and Glasgow, and Southern Kings behind Glasgow but ahead of Connacht and Blues.

If they are that good it will certainly make the league more interesting. I'd like to see the team that tops the table lose more than 3 games in a season, and the bottom team win more than 3 to create a closer league.


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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:21 am

Is there any news on the South Africans adding to their squads? I believe it was conditional that they'd be doing so as to not devalue the league. Maybe the SARU will try and get some of their players in Europe back playing for SA pro14 teams - that would be good.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:26 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Is there any news on the South Africans adding to their squads? I believe it was conditional that they'd be doing so as to not devalue the league. Maybe the SARU will try and get some of their players in Europe back playing for SA pro14 teams - that would be good.

To be honest their existing squads are good enough to be fairly competitive. It's awfully late to recruit up, most players will already be contracted for the coming season
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:37 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Is there any news on the South Africans adding to their squads? I believe it was conditional that they'd be doing so as to not devalue the league. Maybe the SARU will try and get some of their players in Europe back playing for SA pro14 teams - that would be good.

To be honest their existing squads are good enough to be fairly competitive. It's awfully late to recruit up, most players will already be contracted for the coming season

I think it was meant from a depth point of view. Although I assume that would kust mean them dipping intot he Currie Cup sides, as the regions/provices dip into the semi-pros as required.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:38 am

I read that the SARU might move players from the other South African sides to those two:

'Sources in South Africa say they're aware that the Cheetahs and the Kings have been dismal in Super Rugby and a repeat of their performance of recent seasons would do horrendous damage to those trying to rebrand the Pro14.

'The South Africans intend to boost their teams' squads even if they have to move players from their other franchises. That may not happen in season one of the Pro14, but it should happen in season two and beyond.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40653822

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:43 am

How will they play in the Currie Cup too? We need a global season badly. http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/20109947/doubts-cheetahs-currie-cup-defence-pro12-move-looms

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:47 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Is there any news on the South Africans adding to their squads? I believe it was conditional that they'd be doing so as to not devalue the league. Maybe the SARU will try and get some of their players in Europe back playing for SA pro14 teams - that would be good.

To be honest their existing squads are good enough to be fairly competitive. It's awfully late to recruit up, most players will already be contracted for the coming season

I think it was meant from a depth point of view.  Although I assume that would kust mean them dipping intot he Currie Cup sides, as the regions/provices dip into the semi-pros as required.

That's true - Super Rugby squads are fairly small, though they do pull in players on short term deals as injury cover
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:52 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Is there any news on the South Africans adding to their squads? I believe it was conditional that they'd be doing so as to not devalue the league. Maybe the SARU will try and get some of their players in Europe back playing for SA pro14 teams - that would be good.

To be honest their existing squads are good enough to be fairly competitive. It's awfully late to recruit up, most players will already be contracted for the coming season

I think it was meant from a depth point of view.  Although I assume that would kust mean them dipping intot he Currie Cup sides, as the regions/provices dip into the semi-pros as required.

That's true - Super Rugby squads are fairly small, though they do pull in players on short term deals as injury cover

Yeah so if they're franchises, who do they play as in the Currie Cup? Confusing.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:04 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Is there any news on the South Africans adding to their squads? I believe it was conditional that they'd be doing so as to not devalue the league. Maybe the SARU will try and get some of their players in Europe back playing for SA pro14 teams - that would be good.

To be honest their existing squads are good enough to be fairly competitive. It's awfully late to recruit up, most players will already be contracted for the coming season

I think it was meant from a depth point of view.  Although I assume that would kust mean them dipping intot he Currie Cup sides, as the regions/provices dip into the semi-pros as required.

That's true - Super Rugby squads are fairly small, though they do pull in players on short term deals as injury cover

Yeah so if they're franchises, who do they play as in the Currie Cup? Confusing.
Assuming SA run silmilarly to NZ, you get a fair few guys on NPC/Currie Cup only contracts - in NZ those lads generally get other jobs or study in the off season
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:02 pm

There has been a bit in SA about how they couldn't compete with NZ with 6 teams, and a reduction would have created 4 teams that can, and this move does not help address the problem.
However if the Cheetahs, Southern Kings and SARU can work to attract players back from Europe they have a surprisingly large player pool

Aviva SA’s
Hooker
Michael van Vuuren, Shaun Malton, Kyle Cooper, Schalk Brits, Ashley Johnson, Matt Williams
Prop
Cameron Holenstein, Pat Cilliers, Richard Palframan, Petrus du Plessis, Francois van Wyk, Vincent Koch, Simon Kerrod, Gareth Milasinovich, Nick Schonert
Lock
Sebastian de Chaves, David Ribbans,
Flanker
Francois Louw, Jono Ross, Schalk Burger, Michael Rhodes, Dewald Potgieter
Number 8
GJ van Velze
SH
Nic Groom, Cobus Reinach, Faf de Klerk, Francois Hougaard
FH
Demetri Catrakilis, Tim Swiel
Wing
Dean Hammond
Center
Juan de Jongh, Wynand Olivier
FB
Willie le Roux, Perry Humphreys

Pro 12 SA’s

Prop
Brok Harris, Oli Kebble, Brian Mujati, Wiehahn Herbst
Lock
Irné Herbst, George Earle, Franco van der Merwe, Rynard Landman, Jean Kleyn, Gerbrandt Grobler
Flanker
Chris Cloete, Marcell Coetzee, Jean Deysel
SH
Sarel Pretorius,
FH
Marnitz Boshoff, Brandon Thomson
Center
(Danie Poolman) Pat Howard, Jaco Taute
Wing
Duhan van der Merwe, Hanno Dirksen
FB
Zane Kirchner, Carl Meyer, Louis Ludik

Top 14 SA’s
Hooker
Bismarck du Plessis, Jody Jenneker, Craig Burden
Prop
Jannie du Plessis, Kevin Buys, Lourens Adriaanse, Claude Dry, Heinke van der Merwe, Marcel van der Merwe, Maks van Dyk
Lock
Berend Botha, Marco Kotze, Jandré Marais, Peet Marais, Johan Snyman, Hendrik Roodt, Etienne Oosthuizen, Francois van der Merwe, Paul Willemse, Steven Sykes, Juandré Kruger
Flanker
Deon Fourie, Jacques du Plessis, Wiaan Liebenberg, Willem Alberts
Number 8
Petrus Hauman, Duane Vermeulen
SH
Enrico Januarie, Ruan Pienaar, James Hall
FH
François Steyn, Meyer Bosman, Morné Steyn
Center
Robert Ebersohn, Jan Serfontein, Johann Sadie,
Wing
Kobus van Wyk, Paul Jordaan, Bryan Habana, JP Pietersen
FB
Henry Immelman, Cheslin Kolbe

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by LordDowlais on Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:09 pm

Me and the old man were debating this season yesterday, and he came up with a very valid point.

You see, he made a very interesting point. What he said was, that this might be the excuse that South Africa have been looking for. He reckons, that it is a possibility that this is a toe dipping experiment by the South African union. Everybody knows that the money is in the NH, he was saying that if this works for South Africa, then it could be a very big possibility that we might see them asking to put more teams into the NH competitions.

As we all know, the South African TV deals are propping up the SH rugby, and that they may want to start getting something back, he also said, that if South Africa get a strong foothold into the European game, then how long will it be before they are asking for their national team to be part of the 6N ? We all know that is a cash cow of a competition.

As far fetched as it may seem, it is not beyond the realms of reality. It could possibly happen, so, with that in mind, what does the future hold for SH rugby ?

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