The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

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The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 10:05 am

First topic message reminder :

First article I came across on the Web.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 12:11 pm

Thats 100 players based in Europe in the top fight to target to try and bring back.
I know some are qualified to play for their host country, but they haven't been capped yet and are still eligible for SA.

The Aviva has 34, Pro 12 has 23, (24 if you include Poolman who was released by Connacht) and 42 in the Top 14.

Thats a lot of quality players to aim to add to these two teams. They will be under contract this year, but I think when there contacts are up most could be approached over the next year or two.


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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 1:42 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:So under this new system, will certain teams have to play more matches away from home than other teams do, in a single regular season?

From the looks of things there will be 21 rounds of games as mentioned a couple of times above. That will mean half the teams should have 11-10 home-away split while half should have the 10-11 to offset.

Countries with 2 teams expected to get 3 derby games in total so the home-away split will probably be within country for Scots/SA/Italy while Wales/Ireland will have even number of derby games so their over under will be with another country.

This is confusing. But exciting.

The conversation is going to change when they split up the conferences.

Someone could end up with Cheetahs, Glasgow, Treviso, Osprey, Scarlets, Munster, Leinster while another Kings, Edinburgh, Zebre, Dragons, Blues, Ulster, Connacht.

Does someone want a harder conference for better games, get the punters in the door, or a softer conference with a better chance of winning and staying fit/ competing in Europe/still making the playoffs?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 1:54 pm

Kingshu wrote:Thats 100 players based in Europe in the top fight to target to try and bring back.
I know some are qualified to play for their host country, but they haven't been capped yet and are still eligible for SA.

The Aviva has 34, Pro 12 has 23, (24 if you include Poolman who was released by Connacht) and 42 in the Top 14.

Thats a lot of quality players to aim to add to these two teams. They will be under contract this year, but I think when there contacts are up most could be approached over the next year or two.


Yep you've summed it up. Some are also likely putting their international days behind them too. 100 players is ridiculous though, must be a sign of how reliable and affordable they are.

We know that some in SA have wanted out of the current tournament set-up for a while. I think it's realistic to suggest that the SARU do consider their domestic rugby future in the NH.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 2:07 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:So under this new system, will certain teams have to play more matches away from home than other teams do, in a single regular season?

From the looks of things there will be 21 rounds of games as mentioned a couple of times above. That will mean half the teams should have 11-10 home-away split while half should have the 10-11 to offset.


That's pretty awful. That is what is so bad about the likes of super rugby and the 6N. How can a league have some teams playing at home more than others throughout the season?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 2:27 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:So under this new system, will certain teams have to play more matches away from home than other teams do, in a single regular season?

From the looks of things there will be 21 rounds of games as mentioned a couple of times above. That will mean half the teams should have 11-10 home-away split while half should have the 10-11 to offset.


That's pretty awful. That is what is so bad about the likes of super rugby and the 6N. How can a league have some teams playing at home more than others throughout the season?
.

When US/CAD teams join next year it will even up to 11 home games for everyone. However I do think the guaranteed derbies will be removed then or it will create a 24 game league season instead of 22.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Biltong on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 2:31 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Is there any news on the South Africans adding to their squads? I believe it was conditional that they'd be doing so as to not devalue the league. Maybe the SARU will try and get some of their players in Europe back playing for SA pro14 teams - that would be good.

To be honest their existing squads are good enough to be fairly competitive. It's awfully late to recruit up, most players will already be contracted for the coming season

I think it was meant from a depth point of view.  Although I assume that would kust mean them dipping intot he Currie Cup sides, as the regions/provices dip into the semi-pros as required.

Guys it works like this.

6 Super Rugby trams (Franchises)
7 Premier Currie Cup teams (Province)
7 1st Division Currie cup teams. (Province)

That is senior rugby.

Then you have 14 Provincial U21 teams and 14 Provincial U19 teams.

Each of the Franchises have Provinces that are feeders to the Franchises, however up to now the bulls, Stormers and Sharks are the big spenders, so much so that you can easily have two or three of the best players in a position in one Franchise.

I suspect this first season may be problematic in strengethening the Cheetahs and Kings due to time constraints and existing contracts of players.

It is however entirely possible that SARU could compensate the bigger franchises to "loan" players to them.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 2:42 pm

I think people have forgotten the biggest benefit from getting the South Africans into the league

We now get Jaco Peyper reffing in the league, how lucky are we

Run

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by wolfball on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 2:47 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Me and the old man were debating this season yesterday, and he came up with a very valid point.

You see, he made a very interesting point. What he said was, that this might be the excuse that South Africa have been looking for. He reckons, that it is a possibility that this is a toe dipping experiment by the South African union. Everybody knows that the money is in the NH, he was saying that if this works for South Africa, then it could be a very big possibility that we might see them asking to put more teams into the NH competitions.

As we all know, the South African TV deals are propping up the SH rugby, and that they may want to start getting something back, he also said, that if South Africa get a strong foothold into the European game, then how long will it be before they are asking for their national team to be part of the 6N ? We all know that is a cash cow of a competition.

As far fetched as it may seem, it is not beyond the realms of reality. It could possibly happen, so, with that in mind, what does the future hold for SH rugby ?

While not impossible that sounds decades away for me. An Atlantic international competition and a Pacific international competition make a lot more sense from a timezone and logistics POV, but you would need literally every Tier 1 nation to agree to it. If SA money is propping up the 4Nations, then NZ/Aus will fight hard to prevent losing SA.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Biltong on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 2:55 pm

wolfball wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Me and the old man were debating this season yesterday, and he came up with a very valid point.

You see, he made a very interesting point. What he said was, that this might be the excuse that South Africa have been looking for. He reckons, that it is a possibility that this is a toe dipping experiment by the South African union. Everybody knows that the money is in the NH, he was saying that if this works for South Africa, then it could be a very big possibility that we might see them asking to put more teams into the NH competitions.

As we all know, the South African TV deals are propping up the SH rugby, and that they may want to start getting something back, he also said, that if South Africa get a strong foothold into the European game, then how long will it be before they are asking for their national team to be part of the 6N ? We all know that is a cash cow of a competition.

As far fetched as it may seem, it is not beyond the realms of reality. It could possibly happen, so, with that in mind, what does the future hold for SH rugby ?

While not impossible that sounds decades away for me. An Atlantic international competition and a Pacific international competition make a lot more sense from a timezone and logistics POV, but you would need literally every Tier 1 nation to agree to it. If SA money is propping up the 4Nations, then NZ/Aus will fight hard to prevent losing SA.

Not so sure about Australia, they are looking toward Japan, Australia have already suggested dropping SA, New Zealand refised as they value the competition against SA as most important.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 3:08 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:So under this new system, will certain teams have to play more matches away from home than other teams do, in a single regular season?

From the looks of things there will be 21 rounds of games as mentioned a couple of times above. That will mean half the teams should have 11-10 home-away split while half should have the 10-11 to offset.


That's pretty awful. That is what is so bad about the likes of super rugby and the 6N. How can a league have some teams playing at home more than others throughout the season?

If the US don't join next season then the home-away split can swing the other way the following year.

Similar thing could be said about the 6 Nations. Ireland are either unfortunate to have 3 away games to 2 home games one year, and can then say have 3 home matches but England and France away on the alternate years. So every year is unfair.

I'd much prefer an even number of rounds in the season.


On the matchup front, Treviso will get 3 matches against Zebre and will be sitting in a conference where all the other sides will only get 1 crack at Zebre (and that could be on the road). That's arguably an 11 point boost to Treviso from fixtures. Might put them in the playoff berths and definitely helps towards getting into Europe on 'merit'.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by wolfball on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 3:25 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:So under this new system, will certain teams have to play more matches away from home than other teams do, in a single regular season?

From the looks of things there will be 21 rounds of games as mentioned a couple of times above. That will mean half the teams should have 11-10 home-away split while half should have the 10-11 to offset.


That's pretty awful. That is what is so bad about the likes of super rugby and the 6N. How can a league have some teams playing at home more than others throughout the season?

If the US don't join next season then the home-away split can swing the other way the following year.

Similar thing could be said about the 6 Nations.  Ireland are either unfortunate to have 3 away games to 2 home games one year, and can then say have 3 home matches but England and France away on the alternate years.  So every year is unfair.

I'd much prefer an even number of rounds in the season.


On the matchup front, Treviso will get 3 matches against Zebre and will be sitting in a conference where all the other sides will only get 1 crack at Zebre (and that could be on the road).  That's arguably an 11 point boost to Treviso from fixtures.  Might put them in the playoff berths and definitely helps towards getting into Europe on 'merit'.

If non-Italian teams are worried that the current Treviso team is getting into europe ahead of them, the conference model is the least of their worries. Over 21 games it is nearly impossible for a team to get into playoffs or even europe without earning it.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Fri 21 Jul 2017, 3:43 pm

The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 9:56 am

Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 10:08 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

Wow someones a little sensitive, 10 and 20 points better

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by VinceWLB on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 10:50 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

Well, Dragons have gone backwards in the last 5 years, finishing below an Italian team last season and that is with Treviso barely getting 20 points..

Maybe, with the WRU help they can get better and and at least finish above Zebre.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 11:00 am

marty2086 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

Wow someones a little sensitive, 10 and 20 points better

I'm sensitive, yet you post this snide and bitter reply? I just don't like to see lopsided reporting, so alluded to something blatantly obvious which could have an affect on the conferences. Also, basic addition clearly isn't your forté.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 11:05 am

VinceWLB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

Well, Dragons have gone backwards in the last 5 years, finishing below an Italian team last season and that is with Treviso barely getting 20 points..

Maybe, with the WRU help they can get better and and at least finish above Zebre.

Yes they have, and Edinburgh with their whopping two places higher weren't much better in the league last season. Don't see why you have to be so uptight over the obvious.

I hope that Dragons can challenge for the top 6 rather than just finish above the Italians but this year but I can't see it. I expect dragons and Edinburgh will improve compared to last year. Not so sure about Connacht, champs to chumps, but their style of rugby can occasionally turn some of the top teams over as well as thrash the Italians. Their league position also isn't great and the likes of Ospreys, etc will continue to see them as 5 points, hence me mentioning Connacht (and Edinburgh).

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 11:18 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

I hope the Dragons improve this year and next under Jackman and the WRU, but it is fair to say they are down with the Italians currently. Can't really compare them to Connacht (the 15/16 Champions), that year Dragons finished 2 points ahead of Zebre, and 28 behind 9th place Edinburgh, this year they finished below Terviso.

I don't think its unfair to group the Dragons with the Italians on the last 2 years showing, and Edinburgh as a lower mid table team. I hope all 4 teams improve this year. Both are showing encouraging signs.
Connacht also have a new manager, and last years start with lack of pre season really left them fighting uphill all season. Dragons and all teams had their own issues as well though.

Dragons will most likely be tied to the 2nd Welsh team, the group that includes Dragons and an Italian side will seen as the softer conference. Hopefully Dragons will prove the last two years were a blip and they come good again.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by VinceWLB on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 11:22 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

Well, Dragons have gone backwards in the last 5 years, finishing below an Italian team last season and that is with Treviso barely getting 20 points..

Maybe, with the WRU help they can get better and and at least finish above Zebre.

Yes they have, and Edinburgh with their whopping two places higher weren't much better in the league last season. Don't see why you have to be so uptight over the obvious.

I hope that Dragons can challenge for the top 6 rather than just finish above the Italians but this year but I can't see it. I expect dragons and Edinburgh will improve compared to last year. Not so sure about Connacht, champs to chumps, but their style of rugby can occasionally turn some of the top teams over as well as thrash the Italians. Their league position also isn't great and the likes of Ospreys, etc will continue to see them as 5 points, hence me mentioning Connacht (and Edinburgh).

We will see. I hope you are right about the Dragons improving under a new coaching regime, though, unlike Edinburgh i'm not totally convinced they have the squad to do so. I see they have gone back to their old tricks of signing over the hill "marquee" player in Gavin Henson.. I really hope they improve as i love seeing them turning over good sides at Dave Parade..

There is a big question mark over Connacht, not sure what to expect from them really..

Anyway, i'm chuffed at the inclusion of the 2 SA teams, having watched them a few times this season they play an exciting brand of rugby. Wish they would replace the Italians teams though, although to be fair Treviso have signed some decent players for this season.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 1:11 pm

Agree with all that. I'm kinda hoping for a few kick in the arsss moments with Treviso, Kings, Edinburgh and Dragons giving some of the fancied teams a rude awakening.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 3:26 pm

Kingshu wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

I hope the Dragons improve this year and next under Jackman and the WRU, but it is fair to say they are down with the Italians currently. Can't really compare them to Connacht (the 15/16 Champions), that year Dragons finished 2 points ahead of Zebre, and 28 behind 9th place Edinburgh, this year they finished below Terviso.

I don't think its unfair to group the Dragons with the Italians on the last 2 years showing, and Edinburgh as a lower mid table team. I hope all 4 teams improve this year. Both are showing encouraging signs.
Connacht also have a new manager, and last years start with lack of pre season really left them fighting uphill all season. Dragons and all teams had their own issues as well though.

Dragons will most likely be tied to the 2nd Welsh team, the group that includes Dragons and an Italian side will seen as the softer conference. Hopefully Dragons will prove the last two years were a blip and they come good again.

I'm not saying it isn't fair, they are down with the Italians at the moment. Not sure why you're now talking about the previous season though, when we were talking about this season(2016/17)? Seems a bit a shifty. Do you remember Edinburgh lost at home to Zebre in the season we're talking about? Connacht are better than both but they were like lambs to the top 6 teams so let's not kid ourselves.

Jackman is making all the right noises so that's encouraging, although it's not the first time we've heard positivity in pre-season to be backed up by dross. I think we'll certainly improve as there's no way it can get worse, surely... As I also said I think Edinburgh will improve but not really sure about Connacht.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 3:32 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
We will see. I hope you are right about the Dragons improving under a new coaching regime, though, unlike Edinburgh i'm not totally convinced they have the squad to do so. I see they have gone back to their old tricks of signing over the hill "marquee" player in Gavin Henson.. I really hope they improve as i love seeing them turning over good sides at Dave Parade..

There is a big question mark over Connacht, not sure what to expect from them really..

Anyway, i'm chuffed at the inclusion of the 2 SA teams, having watched them a few times this season they play an exciting brand of rugby. Wish they would replace the Italians teams though, although to be fair Treviso have signed some decent players for this season.

Yep squad is a bit thin, but the former U20s coming in look as if they have good potential. There's also former U20 players who have established themselves at this level already but have suffered a lot of injury setbacks - hence not often featuring last season. When we had Morgan and Amos playing regularly together we scored more tries. I'm hoping they stay injury free and with the addition of Henson and Kirchner we could be scoring tries again. Henson isn't really a marquee player, we don't have those. We needed an experienced fly-half and Big Gav came to the rescue. He might be old but he doesn't look it, and I doubt he feels it either - Be interesting to see if he gets into trouble on a night out in Newport...

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 3:32 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

Wow someones a little sensitive, 10 and 20 points better

I'm sensitive, yet you post this snide and bitter reply? I just don't like to see lopsided reporting, so alluded to something blatantly obvious which could have an affect on the conferences. Also, basic addition clearly isn't your forté.

Who's bitter? There isn't anything lopsided in the reporting. The Italians are derided as being the whipping boys of the league yet Dragons finished level with Treviso

Nothing wrong with my addition just couldnt be bothered checking the exact numbers but nice to see you throw irony in with your snide, bitter and overly sensitive comments

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Sat 22 Jul 2017, 4:23 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

I hope the Dragons improve this year and next under Jackman and the WRU, but it is fair to say they are down with the Italians currently. Can't really compare them to Connacht (the 15/16 Champions), that year Dragons finished 2 points ahead of Zebre, and 28 behind 9th place Edinburgh, this year they finished below Terviso.

I don't think its unfair to group the Dragons with the Italians on the last 2 years showing, and Edinburgh as a lower mid table team. I hope all 4 teams improve this year. Both are showing encouraging signs.
Connacht also have a new manager, and last years start with lack of pre season really left them fighting uphill all season. Dragons and all teams had their own issues as well though.

Dragons will most likely be tied to the 2nd Welsh team, the group that includes Dragons and an Italian side will seen as the softer conference. Hopefully Dragons will prove the last two years were a blip and they come good again.

I'm not saying it isn't fair, they are down with the Italians at the moment. Not sure why you're now talking about the previous season though, when we were talking about this season(2016/17)? Seems a bit a shifty. Do you remember Edinburgh lost at home to Zebre in the season we're talking about? Connacht are better than both but they were like lambs to the top 6 teams so let's not kid ourselves.

Jackman is making all the right noises so that's encouraging, although it's not the first time we've heard positivity in pre-season to be backed up by dross. I think we'll certainly improve as there's no way it can get worse, surely... As I also said I think Edinburgh will improve but not really sure about Connacht.

Nothing Shifty, just backing up the point which we seam to agree with. However where we disagree is that you believe Edinburgh and Connacht are not much better, yet Connacht nearly obtained twice as many points as Dragons and won over twice as many games.

If you are comparing it to results against the top 6, Connacht only did win one against them, but in fairness Blues who finished in 7th only won 2 against them, and a draw. There is a bit of a top 6 and bottom 6 in the league, but the bottom six is divided into a top 3 and the Italians and Dragons are below this.

I really do hope that Dragons can improve under the WRU and Jackman as they have great support and deserve better.

Getting Leinster and Connacht will be seen as easier than getting Munster and Ulster, but there isn't much in it, getting Scarlets and Blues will be seen as much tougher than Ospreys and Dragons. Everyone will want to be in Ospreys and Dragons conference. At this is the original point. Everyone will also prefer Kings to Cheetahs, and Zebre to Treviso. But the original point I was trying to make may be clearer here, is that in the over all pairings, the biggest gap is the colours (Scarlets and Blues) and Ospreys Dragons pairing.

My point still stands, the conference that gets Dragons will be seen as the softer conference, it up to Dragons to prove it wrong (and I hope they do).



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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 23 Jul 2017, 10:32 am

marty2086 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

Wow someones a little sensitive, 10 and 20 points better

I'm sensitive, yet you post this snide and bitter reply? I just don't like to see lopsided reporting, so alluded to something blatantly obvious which could have an affect on the conferences. Also, basic addition clearly isn't your forté.

Who's bitter? There isn't anything lopsided in the reporting. The Italians are derided as being the whipping boys of the league yet Dragons finished level with Treviso

Nothing wrong with my addition just couldnt be bothered checking the exact numbers but nice to see you throw irony in with your snide, bitter and overly sensitive comments

You with your bitter reply. For some reason you don't like me pointing out the obvious that Edinburgh and Connacht will also be seen as weak teams. Yet you think it's okay to do it to welsh teams. I haven't denied that's also where the Dragons will be seen despite me being hopeful of improvement. I didn't deny it so you must be mentioning it again to be bitter and snide.

Yes there is something wrong with your addition, as it was clearly wrong. How stupid. When the season kicks off it's obvious you're going to be one of the top performers on your high horse - some things never change Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 23 Jul 2017, 10:38 am

Kingshu wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

I hope the Dragons improve this year and next under Jackman and the WRU, but it is fair to say they are down with the Italians currently. Can't really compare them to Connacht (the 15/16 Champions), that year Dragons finished 2 points ahead of Zebre, and 28 behind 9th place Edinburgh, this year they finished below Terviso.

I don't think its unfair to group the Dragons with the Italians on the last 2 years showing, and Edinburgh as a lower mid table team. I hope all 4 teams improve this year. Both are showing encouraging signs.
Connacht also have a new manager, and last years start with lack of pre season really left them fighting uphill all season. Dragons and all teams had their own issues as well though.

Dragons will most likely be tied to the 2nd Welsh team, the group that includes Dragons and an Italian side will seen as the softer conference. Hopefully Dragons will prove the last two years were a blip and they come good again.

I'm not saying it isn't fair, they are down with the Italians at the moment. Not sure why you're now talking about the previous season though, when we were talking about this season(2016/17)? Seems a bit a shifty. Do you remember Edinburgh lost at home to Zebre in the season we're talking about? Connacht are better than both but they were like lambs to the top 6 teams so let's not kid ourselves.

Jackman is making all the right noises so that's encouraging, although it's not the first time we've heard positivity in pre-season to be backed up by dross. I think we'll certainly improve as there's no way it can get worse, surely... As I also said I think Edinburgh will improve but not really sure about Connacht.

Nothing Shifty, just backing up the point which we seam to agree with. However where we disagree is that you believe Edinburgh and Connacht are not much better, yet Connacht nearly obtained twice as many points as Dragons and won over twice as many games.

If you are comparing it to results against the top 6, Connacht only did win one against them, but in fairness Blues who finished in 7th only won 2 against them, and a draw. There is a bit of a top 6 and bottom 6 in the league, but the bottom six is divided into a top 3 and the Italians and Dragons are below this.

I really do hope that Dragons can improve under the WRU and Jackman as they have great support and deserve better.

Getting Leinster and Connacht will be seen as easier than getting Munster and Ulster, but there isn't much in it, getting Scarlets and Blues will be seen as much tougher than Ospreys and Dragons. Everyone will want to be in Ospreys and Dragons conference. At this is the original point. Everyone will also prefer Kings to Cheetahs, and Zebre to Treviso. But the original point I was trying to make may be clearer here, is that in the over all pairings, the biggest gap is the colours (Scarlets and Blues) and Ospreys Dragons pairing.

My point still stands, the conference that gets Dragons will be seen as the softer conference, it up to Dragons to prove it wrong (and I hope they do).

Yeah it's true Edinburgh aren't much better, doesn't take a genius to know that's the way the top teams will see it, after all they lost at home to Zebre. I'll admit Connacht are better than both but they're one of the teams I imagine to continue to go backward. For some reason people are taking great issue with me pointing out what seems obvious, it's strange.

And everyone will prefer Edinburgh to Glasgow.

I'm not sure one team will make that difference, it depends who else is in the conference. I'm not sure who they're grouping it but the likes of Leinster, Munster, Scarlets, Ospreys and Cheetahs could be in the same conference as Dragons. I'm not sure that'll be seen as softer just because Dragons are in there. Strange point of view, again.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Biltong on Sun 23 Jul 2017, 12:39 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

I hope the Dragons improve this year and next under Jackman and the WRU, but it is fair to say they are down with the Italians currently. Can't really compare them to Connacht (the 15/16 Champions), that year Dragons finished 2 points ahead of Zebre, and 28 behind 9th place Edinburgh, this year they finished below Terviso.

I don't think its unfair to group the Dragons with the Italians on the last 2 years showing, and Edinburgh as a lower mid table team. I hope all 4 teams improve this year. Both are showing encouraging signs.
Connacht also have a new manager, and last years start with lack of pre season really left them fighting uphill all season. Dragons and all teams had their own issues as well though.

Dragons will most likely be tied to the 2nd Welsh team, the group that includes Dragons and an Italian side will seen as the softer conference. Hopefully Dragons will prove the last two years were a blip and they come good again.

I'm not saying it isn't fair, they are down with the Italians at the moment. Not sure why you're now talking about the previous season though, when we were talking about this season(2016/17)? Seems a bit a shifty. Do you remember Edinburgh lost at home to Zebre in the season we're talking about? Connacht are better than both but they were like lambs to the top 6 teams so let's not kid ourselves.

Jackman is making all the right noises so that's encouraging, although it's not the first time we've heard positivity in pre-season to be backed up by dross. I think we'll certainly improve as there's no way it can get worse, surely... As I also said I think Edinburgh will improve but not really sure about Connacht.

Nothing Shifty, just backing up the point which we seam to agree with. However where we disagree is that you believe Edinburgh and Connacht are not much better, yet Connacht nearly obtained twice as many points as Dragons and won over twice as many games.

If you are comparing it to results against the top 6, Connacht only did win one against them, but in fairness Blues who finished in 7th only won 2 against them, and a draw. There is a bit of a top 6 and bottom 6 in the league, but the bottom six is divided into a top 3 and the Italians and Dragons are below this.

I really do hope that Dragons can improve under the WRU and Jackman as they have great support and deserve better.

Getting Leinster and Connacht will be seen as easier than getting Munster and Ulster, but there isn't much in it, getting Scarlets and Blues will be seen as much tougher than Ospreys and Dragons. Everyone will want to be in Ospreys and Dragons conference. At this is the original point. Everyone will also prefer Kings to Cheetahs, and Zebre to Treviso. But the original point I was trying to make may be clearer here, is that in the over all pairings, the biggest gap is the colours (Scarlets and Blues) and Ospreys Dragons pairing.

My point still stands, the conference that gets Dragons will be seen as the softer conference, it up to Dragons to prove it wrong (and I hope they do).

Yeah it's true Edinburgh aren't much better, doesn't take a genius to know that's the way the top teams will see it, after all they lost at home to Zebre. I'll admit Connacht are better than both but they're one of the teams I imagine to continue to go backward. For some reason people are taking great issue with me pointing out what seems obvious, it's strange.

And everyone will prefer Edinburgh to Glasgow.

I'm not sure one team will make that difference, it depends who else is in the conference. I'm not sure who they're grouping it but the likes of Leinster, Munster, Scarlets, Ospreys and Cheetahs could be in the same conference as Dragons. I'm not sure that'll be seen as softer just because Dragons are in there. Strange point of view, again.

When the Super Rugby season started the Kings were ridiculed as to why they are even in the competition, yet they finished 11th out of 18 teams and had some famous wins during the season.

It is nigh on impossible to predict how strong or weak a team will be prior to season kick off.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by VinceWLB on Sun 23 Jul 2017, 1:45 pm

Biltong wrote:When the Super Rugby season started the Kings were ridiculed as to why they are even in the competition, yet they finished 11th out of 18 teams and had some famous wins during the season.

It is nigh on impossible to predict how strong or weak a team will be prior to season kick off.

Yes, everyone is saying Cheetahs are better than Kings.. I beg to disagree, for a start Kings are a team on the up, Cheetahs, not so much. Not to mention Cheetahs will have disruption because of Currie Cup.

My worry about the conferences is that i think Zebre will be considerably weaker than Treviso.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Sun 23 Jul 2017, 2:12 pm

Biltong wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

I hope the Dragons improve this year and next under Jackman and the WRU, but it is fair to say they are down with the Italians currently. Can't really compare them to Connacht (the 15/16 Champions), that year Dragons finished 2 points ahead of Zebre, and 28 behind 9th place Edinburgh, this year they finished below Terviso.

I don't think its unfair to group the Dragons with the Italians on the last 2 years showing, and Edinburgh as a lower mid table team. I hope all 4 teams improve this year. Both are showing encouraging signs.
Connacht also have a new manager, and last years start with lack of pre season really left them fighting uphill all season. Dragons and all teams had their own issues as well though.

Dragons will most likely be tied to the 2nd Welsh team, the group that includes Dragons and an Italian side will seen as the softer conference. Hopefully Dragons will prove the last two years were a blip and they come good again.

I'm not saying it isn't fair, they are down with the Italians at the moment. Not sure why you're now talking about the previous season though, when we were talking about this season(2016/17)? Seems a bit a shifty. Do you remember Edinburgh lost at home to Zebre in the season we're talking about? Connacht are better than both but they were like lambs to the top 6 teams so let's not kid ourselves.

Jackman is making all the right noises so that's encouraging, although it's not the first time we've heard positivity in pre-season to be backed up by dross. I think we'll certainly improve as there's no way it can get worse, surely... As I also said I think Edinburgh will improve but not really sure about Connacht.

Nothing Shifty, just backing up the point which we seam to agree with. However where we disagree is that you believe Edinburgh and Connacht are not much better, yet Connacht nearly obtained twice as many points as Dragons and won over twice as many games.

If you are comparing it to results against the top 6, Connacht only did win one against them, but in fairness Blues who finished in 7th only won 2 against them, and a draw. There is a bit of a top 6 and bottom 6 in the league, but the bottom six is divided into a top 3 and the Italians and Dragons are below this.

I really do hope that Dragons can improve under the WRU and Jackman as they have great support and deserve better.

Getting Leinster and Connacht will be seen as easier than getting Munster and Ulster, but there isn't much in it, getting Scarlets and Blues will be seen as much tougher than Ospreys and Dragons. Everyone will want to be in Ospreys and Dragons conference. At this is the original point. Everyone will also prefer Kings to Cheetahs, and Zebre to Treviso. But the original point I was trying to make may be clearer here, is that in the over all pairings, the biggest gap is the colours (Scarlets and Blues) and Ospreys Dragons pairing.

My point still stands, the conference that gets Dragons will be seen as the softer conference, it up to Dragons to prove it wrong (and I hope they do).

Yeah it's true Edinburgh aren't much better, doesn't take a genius to know that's the way the top teams will see it, after all they lost at home to Zebre. I'll admit Connacht are better than both but they're one of the teams I imagine to continue to go backward. For some reason people are taking great issue with me pointing out what seems obvious, it's strange.

And everyone will prefer Edinburgh to Glasgow.

I'm not sure one team will make that difference, it depends who else is in the conference. I'm not sure who they're grouping it but the likes of Leinster, Munster, Scarlets, Ospreys and Cheetahs could be in the same conference as Dragons. I'm not sure that'll be seen as softer just because Dragons are in there. Strange point of view, again.

When the Super Rugby season started the Kings were ridiculed as to why they are even in the competition, yet they finished 11th out of 18 teams and had some famous wins during the season.

It is nigh on impossible to predict how strong or weak a team will be prior to season kick off.

You are correct Biltong and I hope Dragons make an immediate improvement under Jackman.
I was just pointing out potential issues with the conferences this year, as that was what was originally asked a page or two ago and promoted the statement from me to add what was a potential issue. If things are laid out as expected the potential issues with Conferences

When the groups are assigned at the start of the season, the one with Dragons will most likely be seen as the softer conference, as it is currently viewed as there are 3 weak teams, and the conference that gets two of them will have an advantage.

There is also the unbalance of half the teams having a extra home game, while the others have an away game.

Glasgow get to play Edinburgh 3 times, while the Irish/Welsh teams in the same conference only play them once, and half of them it will be an away game.

Glasgow will have only one game against Leinster or Munster (most likely the strongest teams in the league) with a 50% chance it will be at home, while the other provinces in Glasgows conference will have to play them twice (the same applies to the Welsh regions, in their conference against Scarlets or Ospreys)

For the above you can also substitute Cheetahs/Kings, Terviso/Zebre for Glasgow/Edinburgh, however I think the difference in quality is more apparent in Glasgow/Edinburgh

Season tickets have been sold that may have one home game less than expected.

Treviso get to play Zebre 3 times.

Overall I think that when the conferences are released there is going to be a lot of bickering about the unevenness of it all, and if as expected to keep all the derby games, some teams will play others more often this will exgaterate it further. I think there are going to be a lot of unhappy fans this season, hopefully it works out that the 3 teams in each conference deserve it, and its not seen as they got an easier ride than others.

The Pro 12 does have to expand and generate new revenue, and I can accept conferences as a necessary evil as it is adapt or die. Conferences are always unbalanced but I fear that the way they will go about it this year to appease everyone wishing to keep the derbies etc will unbalance it even more, and potentially turn fans off, at a time we need to keep fans and build excitement about the new SA sides joining.

I actually hoped that this year they go with a straight league, even though it means more games, and spend the season preparing people for next year when the US and CAD teams join for conferences and the loss of a derby each year, however with the regions commitment to the Anglo-Welsh cup I believe this to be impossible.

The Pro 12 has a tough choice, lose a derby and create fairer conferences, and upset fans, or create unfair conferences and upset fans about the unbalance of it all.

I think they will go for the second one, and when fans are upset about the unbalance, they can add the US/CAD teams, and remove a derby game and sell it too fans that its more balanced, so they are less upset about losing a derby game each season.











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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Biltong on Sun 23 Jul 2017, 2:41 pm

Yes unfortunately when a tournament does not have double round robin home and away everyone plays against everyone there is bound to be unhappiness amongst some fans.

Unfortunately it is the nature of the beast, at least it is not as convoluted as the Super 18 was.

Ultimately over 21 matches the net effect is likely to even out considerably more than over 16 matches and you aren't playing nearly thr same opponrnts.

It might make a difference of a few log points, but ultimately the aim is to get to the play offs. From there it is anyones game.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Stone Motif on Sun 23 Jul 2017, 7:47 pm

Kingshu wrote:
Biltong wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The Dragons are as weak as the Italians sides currently, the teams that have Dragons and an Italian team in their conference also have an easier time.
However all the other teams in the conference have the same advantage, and still need to reach the top 3.

I guess you could say the same about Edinburgh, and Connacht aren't much better either.

I hope the Dragons improve this year and next under Jackman and the WRU, but it is fair to say they are down with the Italians currently. Can't really compare them to Connacht (the 15/16 Champions), that year Dragons finished 2 points ahead of Zebre, and 28 behind 9th place Edinburgh, this year they finished below Terviso.

I don't think its unfair to group the Dragons with the Italians on the last 2 years showing, and Edinburgh as a lower mid table team. I hope all 4 teams improve this year. Both are showing encouraging signs.
Connacht also have a new manager, and last years start with lack of pre season really left them fighting uphill all season. Dragons and all teams had their own issues as well though.

Dragons will most likely be tied to the 2nd Welsh team, the group that includes Dragons and an Italian side will seen as the softer conference. Hopefully Dragons will prove the last two years were a blip and they come good again.

I'm not saying it isn't fair, they are down with the Italians at the moment. Not sure why you're now talking about the previous season though, when we were talking about this season(2016/17)? Seems a bit a shifty. Do you remember Edinburgh lost at home to Zebre in the season we're talking about? Connacht are better than both but they were like lambs to the top 6 teams so let's not kid ourselves.

Jackman is making all the right noises so that's encouraging, although it's not the first time we've heard positivity in pre-season to be backed up by dross. I think we'll certainly improve as there's no way it can get worse, surely... As I also said I think Edinburgh will improve but not really sure about Connacht.

Nothing Shifty, just backing up the point which we seam to agree with. However where we disagree is that you believe Edinburgh and Connacht are not much better, yet Connacht nearly obtained twice as many points as Dragons and won over twice as many games.

If you are comparing it to results against the top 6, Connacht only did win one against them, but in fairness Blues who finished in 7th only won 2 against them, and a draw. There is a bit of a top 6 and bottom 6 in the league, but the bottom six is divided into a top 3 and the Italians and Dragons are below this.

I really do hope that Dragons can improve under the WRU and Jackman as they have great support and deserve better.

Getting Leinster and Connacht will be seen as easier than getting Munster and Ulster, but there isn't much in it, getting Scarlets and Blues will be seen as much tougher than Ospreys and Dragons. Everyone will want to be in Ospreys and Dragons conference. At this is the original point. Everyone will also prefer Kings to Cheetahs, and Zebre to Treviso. But the original point I was trying to make may be clearer here, is that in the over all pairings, the biggest gap is the colours (Scarlets and Blues) and Ospreys Dragons pairing.

My point still stands, the conference that gets Dragons will be seen as the softer conference, it up to Dragons to prove it wrong (and I hope they do).

Yeah it's true Edinburgh aren't much better, doesn't take a genius to know that's the way the top teams will see it, after all they lost at home to Zebre. I'll admit Connacht are better than both but they're one of the teams I imagine to continue to go backward. For some reason people are taking great issue with me pointing out what seems obvious, it's strange.

And everyone will prefer Edinburgh to Glasgow.

I'm not sure one team will make that difference, it depends who else is in the conference. I'm not sure who they're grouping it but the likes of Leinster, Munster, Scarlets, Ospreys and Cheetahs could be in the same conference as Dragons. I'm not sure that'll be seen as softer just because Dragons are in there. Strange point of view, again.

When the Super Rugby season started the Kings were ridiculed as to why they are even in the competition, yet they finished 11th out of 18 teams and had some famous wins during the season.

It is nigh on impossible to predict how strong or weak a team will be prior to season kick off.

You are correct Biltong and I hope Dragons make an immediate improvement under Jackman.
I was just pointing out potential issues with the conferences this year, as that was what was originally asked a page or two ago and promoted the statement from me to add what was a potential issue. If things are laid out as expected the potential issues with Conferences

When the groups are assigned at the start of the season, the one with Dragons will most likely be seen as the softer conference, as it is currently viewed as there are 3 weak teams, and the conference that gets two of them will have an advantage.

There is also the unbalance of half the teams having a extra home game, while the others have an away game.

Glasgow get to play Edinburgh 3 times, while the Irish/Welsh teams in the same conference only play them once, and half of them it will be an away game.

Glasgow will have only one game against Leinster or Munster (most likely the strongest teams in the league) with a 50% chance it will be at home, while the other provinces in Glasgows conference will have to play them twice (the same applies to the Welsh regions, in their conference against Scarlets or Ospreys)

For the above you can also substitute Cheetahs/Kings, Terviso/Zebre for Glasgow/Edinburgh, however I think the difference in quality is more apparent in Glasgow/Edinburgh

Season tickets have been sold that may have one home game less than expected.

Treviso get to play Zebre 3 times.

Overall I think that when the conferences are released there is going to be a lot of bickering about the unevenness of it all, and if as expected to keep all the derby games, some teams will play others more often this will exgaterate it further. I think there are going to be a lot of unhappy fans this season, hopefully it works out that the 3 teams in each conference deserve it, and its not seen as they got an easier ride than others.

The Pro 12 does have to expand and generate new revenue, and I can accept conferences as a necessary evil as it is adapt or die. Conferences are always unbalanced but I fear that the way they will go about it this year to appease everyone wishing to keep the derbies etc will unbalance it even more, and potentially turn fans off, at a time we need to keep fans and build excitement about the new SA sides joining.

I actually hoped that this year they go with a straight league, even though it means more games, and spend the season preparing people for next year when the US and CAD teams join for conferences and the loss of a derby each year, however with the regions commitment to the Anglo-Welsh cup I believe this to be impossible.

The Pro 12 has a tough choice, lose a derby and create fairer conferences, and upset fans, or create unfair conferences and upset fans about the unbalance of it all.

I think they will go for the second one, and when fans are upset about the unbalance, they can add the US/CAD teams, and remove a derby game and sell it too fans that its more balanced, so they are less upset about losing a derby game each season.




You could have just said "it's a fecking mess" and saved yourself the repetitive strain injury
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 10:53 am

The current "Zebre" are out of the comp now apparently
http://www.onrugby.it/2017/07/24/zebre-rugby-ufficiale-lincarico-a-dalledonne/

FIR are setting up a replacement team - expected to be Rome based, but with many of the current Zebre players/coaches shifting across
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 11:19 am

I think their capital city has needed an international team for a while, as surely that's more sustainable? Anyone passing through can come and watch too.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 11:21 am

mikey_dragon wrote:I think their capital city has needed an international team for a while, as surely that's more sustainable? Anyone passing through can come and watch too.

The north of the country though is the heartland of rugby in Italy, it may though become more appealing to foreigners and sponsors

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 11:32 am

Obvs I meant to type domestic/club team there, multi-tasking. Maybe just one team in the north is more sustainable, then an extra one in Rome drawing on the city's wealth, etc. It could work. What are they going to be called though, the Romans...?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 11:35 am

The Google translate job on the article seems to suggest Zebre will rename just be relocated to Rome under the FIR ownership, which may not be a bad idea if they can allow O'Shea some input into the setup

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by BigGee on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 11:38 am

I have been to Parma to watch a Glasgow game and we had a very nice time. Having said that, it was not well attended in the slightest. There were just about as many Glasgow fans as Italians.

If Italian rugby is to go forward, then a Rome based Franchise must be on the cards. It will be a much more attractive place for fans to visit, as well as to attract players to come and play.

Italy can get decent crowds in to see the internationals so there is an audience around somewhere. They have just got to work on the product.

Hard to see Zebre turning it around though. They are really in the last chance saloon and you can easily see them being dropped next year, which would create space for an American team or just go back to a straight league of 13.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 11:47 am

Kingshu wrote:I hope the Dragons improve this year and next under Jackman and the WRU, but it is fair to say they are down with the Italians currently. Can't really compare them to Connacht (the 15/16 Champions), that year Dragons finished 2 points ahead of Zebre, and 28 behind 9th place Edinburgh, this year they finished below Terviso.

I don't think its unfair to group the Dragons with the Italians on the last 2 years showing, and Edinburgh as a lower mid table team. I hope all 4 teams improve this year. Both are showing encouraging signs.
Connacht also have a new manager, and last years start with lack of pre season really left them fighting uphill all season. Dragons and all teams had their own issues as well though.

Dragons will most likely be tied to the 2nd Welsh team, the group that includes Dragons and an Italian side will seen as the softer conference. Hopefully Dragons will prove the last two years were a blip and they come good again.

Oh it's been longer than two years!

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 12:06 pm

BigGee wrote:
Hard to see Zebre turning it around though. They are really in the last chance saloon and you can easily see them being dropped next year, which would create space for an American team or just go back to a straight league of 13.

A year is hardly enough time to build an infrastructure, it does need to be the last roll of the dice for the FIR though

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by BigGee on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 12:16 pm

marty2086 wrote:
BigGee wrote:
Hard to see Zebre turning it around though. They are really in the last chance saloon and you can easily see them being dropped next year, which would create space for an American team or just go back to a straight league of 13.

A year is hardly enough time to build an infrastructure, it does need to be the last roll of the dice for the FIR though

Agreed, everything stacked against them, it is going to be almost impossible for them to succeed. Best case scenario is them putting on enough of a fight to justify another year.

It would have been the perfect opportunity for the Italians to drop down to one team, which would have had the chance to be reasonably competitive. Another team could have been added in at a later date if the first one proved successful. Hard to see how a hopelessly uncompetitive team can help Italian rugby, or the league.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 12:27 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Obvs I meant to type domestic/club team there, multi-tasking. Maybe just one team in the north is more sustainable, then an extra one in Rome drawing on the city's wealth, etc. It could work. What are they going to be called though, the Romans...?

When the Italians first joined, they had an idea of a Rome based team called Praetorians Roma, however, Pretorians Roma failed to satisfy the evaluators of their financial muscle and Benetton Treviso were nominated in their place.

I'd say Praetorians Roma would be a good guess to the new teams name.

Another guess would be that there used to be 3 regional teams that played, Zebre represented Northwest Italy, I Dogi (The Doges) Northeast Italy (Treviso area), and I Lupi (The Wolves) based in Central and Southern Italy.

So I Lupi (The Wolves) and with the Legend of the founding of Rome may fit in? A a fair second guess.

Having a rugby team in a big city is not a way to guarantee support, Glasgow didn't have great support for years and Edinburgh also don't have a huge supporter numbers for being based in a big city.

OK Rome is about 4/5 times the size of them, but it a football city and a rugby team will face the same issues as Glasgow/Edinburgh.
It does have two local teams, Fiamme Oro and Rugby Lazio, but with both having stadiums with about 1000 capacity I can't see either having a great following.

However Rugby has been growing in support as a family event, as the trouble sat some football matches have been turning fans away and a safe family environment could be a big positive. However its success that will make them popular, I don't see them getting that this year, and expect them to actually be worse than last year, but hopefully this is what is needed to make them a successful team.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by munkian on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 12:45 pm

They'll still be called Zebre.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 1:59 pm

munkian wrote:They'll still be called Zebre.

From what I can make of it, it feels a bit like the Edinburgh Gunners becoming Edinburgh Rugby thing, or Newport Gwent Dragons becominig Dragons. They will still exist, and be essentially the same as before, so to all intents and purposes things have not changed much for the rest of us.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 2:34 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
munkian wrote:They'll still be called Zebre.

From what I can make of it, it feels a bit like the Edinburgh Gunners becoming Edinburgh Rugby thing, or Newport Gwent Dragons becominig Dragons.  They will still exist, and be essentially the same as before, so to all intents and purposes things have not changed much for the rest of us.

From what I've read, under Italian law it may be more akin to what happened at Rangers. The holding company have went bust and the FIR have taken on the assets like the intellectual property etc but the contracts may not be included and they have to get everyone under contract again.

I may be wrong but that seems to be the indication of how Padovani ended up at Toulon.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by munkian on Mon 24 Jul 2017, 2:49 pm

Poor Aironi Sad
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by wolfball on Thu 27 Jul 2017, 5:09 pm

Take this with a pinch of salt, but the conference breakdown might have been spotted in dublin yesterday

It indicates:
Munster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Kings, Connacht, Cardiff Blues and Zebre in conference 1.
Leinster, Ulster, Scarlets, Dragons, Edinburgh, Treviso, Cheetahs in conference 2

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Mon 31 Jul 2017, 5:02 pm

Michael Bradley has been appointed head coach of Zebre.

The Pro12 outfit have been taken over by the Italian rugby federation after their existence had been threatened by financial difficulties.

Former Ireland scrum-half Bradley led Connacht for seven years, from 2003 to 2010 and was Ireland interim head coach for a tour to New Zealand and Australia in 2008.

He guided Edinburgh to the Heineken Cup semi-finals appearance in 2012, when they lost to Ulster, and has been defence coach with Georgia for the last four years.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 31 Jul 2017, 8:50 pm

As if things weren't bad enough for Zebre!

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Mon 31 Jul 2017, 11:09 pm

Whats the problem with Bradley?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 01 Aug 2017, 7:02 am

Seems strange to say of a man who guided us to a Heineken Cup semi, but he was an absolute disaster at Edinburgh.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

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