The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

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The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:05 am

First topic message reminder :

First article I came across on the Web.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:39 pm

marty2086 wrote:You want to know watch the video

I've watched it a few times now. Which bit answers the question?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by wolfball on Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:59 pm

Because conferences are divided by league position, the number of home games per team will vary year to year until more teams are added to the conferences due to math. Its not ideal, but its what you get with this number of teams divided by this number of countries across a conference.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:03 pm

wolfball wrote:Because conferences are divided by league position, the number of home games per team will vary year to year until more teams are added to the conferences due to math. Its not ideal, but its what you get with this number of teams divided by this number of countries across a conference.

Right, but they balance out over a 2 year period for each team yes?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Biltong on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:06 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Biltong wrote:Its only one match

But season upon season of certain teams having less home games than others is what we are talking about.

If that scenario doesn't occur then fine. I'm waiting to see how they are going to ensure this doesn't happen.

If, for instance  :   Ospreys Scarlets Leinster Connacht Edinburgh Zebre and Cheetahs are in one of next year's conferences - All those teams require 11 home games next season, as per the Pro14 website (kindly posted by Pot Hale) - so I just wondered how easy it is to make that happen as my brain hurts from looking at all the permutations.

I'm sure the Pro14 have sussed it out, or they wouldn't put it on their website. It's just a ballache to try and figure out.

It will happen to some teams as the conferences will be different every year du to previous season rankings

If conferences remain the same it can alternate every year
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:08 pm

That cannot be guaranteed as teams will be in conferences by a seeding mechanism which could easily create a
situation where 1, maybe 2, teams have 10 home games 2 years running.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Biltong on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:09 pm

Exactly
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:19 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:That cannot be guaranteed as teams will be in conferences by a seeding mechanism which could easily create a
situation where 1, maybe 2, teams have 10 home games 2 years running.

But on Pot Hale's very helpful Pro14 official FAQ link it explicitly states:

Teams will alternate between 10 or 11 home games each season

Is this not correct?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Biltong on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:22 pm

Rugby fan if teams remain the the same conference yes, but not if rankings change, then it cannot be guaranteed
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:27 pm

Biltong wrote:Rugby fan if teams remain the the same conference yes, but not if rankings change, then it cannot be guaranteed

If that is correct, the pro14 really should take that claim down as it is not true and teams could continue to have less home games than their rivals. Quite an unfair scenario.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by profitius on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:32 pm

Home and away games will balance out over time.


All this nitpicking is very boring. Sure it isn't perfectly fair but what is? The playoffs are certainly not fair. I didn't hear many complaints when the Scarlets won it despite finishing 3rd in the table last season or when Ospreys beat Leinster twice when Leinster were battered from the heineken cup semi finals and finals in the weeks before.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:34 pm

As Biltong says if they reseed every year according to performance then it is not possible to guarantee 11 home games every other year.

Only reseeding the conferences every 2 years would solve the problem.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:36 pm

profitius wrote:Home and away games will balance out over time.


All this nitpicking is very boring. Sure it isn't perfectly fair but what is?

A league?

How you can say it will "balance out over time" is beyond me. That's just blind hope.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:40 pm

It can balance out over time.

For examples if a team has 2 years with 10 games they would be guaranteed 11 in the third year.
The reverse is also true 2 years of 11 games would ensure 10 then next.

The reality is we are in a transition; this league will be growing further in the coming years.
Better to bite the conference bullet now before we have a Pro20, or whatever, and get rid of any teething troubles
with a more manageable number of teams.

26 league games was never viable anyway

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Biltong on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:41 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:As Biltong says if they reseed every year according to performance then it is not possible to guarantee 11 home games every other year.

Only reseeding the conferences every 2 years would solve the problem.

Yeah that is the obvious answer, tally both seasons log points together and reseed every 2 years
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:42 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:

For examples if a team has 2 years with 10 games they would be guaranteed 11 in the third year.

Can you expand on why that would be the case? Why would the third year be any different?

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Biltong on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:46 pm

Because you have two cycles, 10 home gamee season and 11 home game sason per team in each conference
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:52 pm

Biltong wrote:Because you have two cycles, 10 home gamee season and 11 home game sason per team in each conference

The positions in the league aren't cyclical every 2 seasons though.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Biltong on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:01 pm

No it isn't, but if you want fair distribution of home and away matches then the only way you can guarantee fairness is two year cycles
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:01 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:

How you can say it will "balance out over time" is beyond me. That's just blind hope.

Yeah you don't like the Pro14, I think we get it by now Rolling Eyes.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:06 pm

Biltong wrote:No it isn't, but if you want fair distribution of home and away matches then the only way you can guarantee fairness is two year cycles

I think everyone agrees with what SHOULD be done. I'm trying to understand what WILL be done and I can see no mention of 2 year cycles anywhere in the Pro14 announcements.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:07 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:

How you can say it will "balance out over time" is beyond me. That's just blind hope.

Yeah you don't like the Pro14, I think we get it by now Rolling Eyes.

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of how the home and away function operates. Nothing more. If that upsets people, then it's on them really.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Biltong on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:08 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Biltong wrote:No it isn't, but if you want fair distribution of home and away matches then the only way you can guarantee fairness is two year cycles

I think everyone agrees with what SHOULD be done. I'm trying to understand what WILL be done and I can see no mention of 2 year cycles anywhere in the Pro14 announcements.

We'll have to wait and see
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Kingshu on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:23 pm

They will try to give teams that only had 10 home games 11 the next year, but its not guarenteed. I dont think the Pro 14 are overly worried about it and doing two year cycles etc as the plan is to have US and CAD teams next year which will mean everyone get 11 home games.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by St John The Enforcer on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:37 pm

I wouldn't get too hung up on it. There could easily be more teams in it next year. I'm sure they will do their best to ensure that teams with 10 home games will get 11 next year.

I think the Pro14 have done a great job of getting a comp with 5 countries and a gazillion tv channels over the line and tying down fixtures as quickly as they have done.

My team signed up more than 12000 season ticket holders on the basis of 11 home games and got 10. (they are giving us the option of extra seats for a game of our choice) Haven't heard much bleating about it.

And if we end up with 10 again next year I'm sure I will have a bit of a moan about it, but it's not the end of the universe as we know it, in the context of expanding and developing the league.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:41 pm

Kingshu wrote:They will try to give teams that only had 10 home games 11 the next year, but its not guarenteed. I dont think the Pro 14 are overly worried about it and doing two year cycles etc  as the plan is to have  US and CAD teams next year which will mean everyone get 11 home games.

That all depends on if they stick to two conferences, the long term plan is to reduce game so increasing games would go against the long term strategy. Now they could increase it for a few years and reassess in a few years when the SANZAR agreement is up and see what SARU want to do

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:41 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:

For examples if a team has 2 years with 10 games they would be guaranteed 11 in the third year.

Can you expand on why that would be the case? Why would the third year be any different?

It is a statistical certainty.
Any one team can be guaranteed 11 games in any one year.
Given that a second year means 3 teams get 10 games a second time - worse case scenario - the fixtures can be arranged in such a way those 3 teams are guaranteed 11 games in the 3rd year

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pot Hale on Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:13 pm

I think that any teams playing 10 home games this season will be able to play 11 home games next season. The third derby match for Italy, Scotland and SA will alternate home/away automatically each season.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:05 pm

Good point - was forgetting that.


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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Biltong on Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:07 pm

To think a brain as bright as yours must one day rot pot hale Smile
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pot Hale on Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:24 am

Biltong wrote:To think a brain as bright as yours must one day rot pot hale Smile

Indeed. Best not to think is my motto.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Cyril on Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:03 am

Is there really going to be a 'league' system for the Celts/It/SA that involves uneven home and away games? Seems impossible to decide who really deserved to win.

Re. the Ulster griping, think you really need to consider how badly Connacht have been treated since inception. Most of your problems are home-grown.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:16 am

St John The Enforcer wrote:I wouldn't get too hung up on it. There could easily be more teams in it next year. I'm sure they will do their best to ensure that teams with 10 home games will get 11 next year.

I think the Pro14 have done a great job of getting a comp with 5 countries and a gazillion tv channels over the line and tying down fixtures as quickly as they have done.

My team signed up more than 12000 season ticket holders on the basis of 11 home games and got 10. (they are giving us the option of extra seats for a game of our choice) Haven't heard much bleating about it.

And if we end up with 10 again next year I'm sure I will have a bit of a moan about it, but it's not the end of the universe as we know it, in the context of expanding and developing the league.

I agree fair deuce to the pro 12 for trying things anyway.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:47 am

Cyril wrote:Is there really going to be a 'league' system for the Celts/It/SA that involves uneven home and away games? Seems impossible to decide who really deserved to win.

Re. the Ulster griping, think you really need to consider how badly Connacht have been treated since inception. Most of your problems are home-grown.

The 6 Nations has an uneven number of home and away games every year which is far more significant that 10/11 home games doesn't mean people consider the winners undeserving.

We know how badly Connacht have been treated.

We also know that many problems are home grown - that is why we complain - it is so stupid

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pot Hale on Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:37 am

Cyril wrote:Is there really going to be a 'league' system for the Celts/It/SA that involves uneven home and away games? Seems impossible to decide who really deserved to win.

Re. the Ulster griping, think you really need to consider how badly Connacht have been treated since inception. Most of your problems are home-grown.

It's no longer a  traditional league.   It's now known as the PRO14 Championship currently involving two conferences of teams.

Edit: I've started a new PRO12/14 topic -Part 4 - to bring things up to date.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by RiscaGame on Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:34 am

Cyril wrote:Is there really going to be a 'league' system for the Celts/It/SA that involves uneven home and away games? Seems impossible to decide who really deserved to win.

Re. the Ulster griping, think you really need to consider how badly Connacht have been treated since inception. Most of your problems are home-grown.

True, but then Ulster can't moan about any harsh treatment. Particularly when they can guarantee their home games are on a Friday and their Twitter make a mockery of even alleged crimes and it gets celebrated by a supporters page after. vomit

https://twitter.com/ulsterrugbysp/status/895031160392355840

Banter, I'm sure. Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:07 am

RiscaGame wrote:
Cyril wrote:Is there really going to be a 'league' system for the Celts/It/SA that involves uneven home and away games? Seems impossible to decide who really deserved to win.

Re. the Ulster griping, think you really need to consider how badly Connacht have been treated since inception. Most of your problems are home-grown.

True, but then Ulster can't moan about any harsh treatment.

We certaintly can - the IRFU have screwed us over a few times, just not in the way Connacht have been in terms of less finances
RiscaGame wrote: Particularly when they can guarantee their home games are on a Friday
We cant
RiscaGame wrote: and their Twitter make a mockery of even alleged crimes and it gets celebrated by a supporters page after. vomit

https://twitter.com/ulsterrugbysp/status/895031160392355840

Banter, I'm sure. Rolling Eyes

I opened up your link expecting some awful comment about the alleged incidence - all I saw was a piece of light humour.
Not in my taste but hardly the worst and we do have a vacancy for a fly half
If that is the worse you can find then I don't see why you bothered.
Go to any supporters board and you will find far worse - thankfully for Rugby bad taste is rare but it is there on all free access sites somewhere

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:28 am

RiscaGame wrote:
Cyril wrote:Is there really going to be a 'league' system for the Celts/It/SA that involves uneven home and away games? Seems impossible to decide who really deserved to win.

Re. the Ulster griping, think you really need to consider how badly Connacht have been treated since inception. Most of your problems are home-grown.

True, but then Ulster can't moan about any harsh treatment. Particularly when they can guarantee their home games are on a Friday and their Twitter make a mockery of even alleged crimes and it gets celebrated by a supporters page after. vomit

https://twitter.com/ulsterrugbysp/status/895031160392355840

Banter, I'm sure. Rolling Eyes

We can't actually guarantee home games on a Friday night, over a third of our league games last season were on a Saturday

As for the post, where exactly is the problem? Theres no mockery of any crime, there's a joke about needing a fly half which our CEO has talked about publically and promised an announcement on which we still await

If Jackson was down with a broken leg would it be mocking his injury? Rolling Eyes


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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by PhilBB on Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:03 am

r*** allegations.

"light humour".

Dear Christ alive
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:19 am

The light humour was about the fact we are going into the season without a fly half

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REFERENCE TO THE ALLEGATION or any connection made to it.

The only connection is by the two of you trying to Poopie stir on here

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:41 am

Its quite ironic that they have to falsely use the accusations to generate righteous indignation to stir things

Reminds me of our politicians and them being victims advocates only when defending themselves or attacking others

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:58 am

geoff999rugby wrote:The light humour was about the fact we are going into the season without a fly half

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REFERENCE TO THE ALLEGATION or any connection made to it.

The only connection is by the two of you trying to Poopie stir on here

So there is no connection to losing two fly halves to the allegations?

Personally I don't see too much of an issue with the tweet. However in the 'offended' era we now live in, I would say it wasw probably a lapse in judgement by the folks who do your tweets.


Also, good to see the rugby season is almost here, and the good old Welsh V Irish (Ulster), and vice-versa, is back on fine form.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:20 pm

Calling Olding a fly half is generous, he's 4th or 5th on our options list

The allegations have been around for over a year, given why Jackson is unavailable maybe it was ill advised but to be honest it raised a smile from me as I took it in the spirit it was meant, but there is no mocking of allegations as some idiot has claimed

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:56 pm

Marty, put this in your diary, I agree with you.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:00 pm



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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:14 pm

Cheers Scarlet good post with a sense of proportion to it.

Like you good to have the season back.
I see we play you at home early on.

Saw a number of post on here saying our conference was as good as won by Leinster.
Given the rugby played by Scarlets last year I think that is well wide of the mark - you can run them very close.

Never been to Parc Y Scarlets -will try and make it my Welsh trip away this year

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by marty2086 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:22 pm

Scarlets will be an interesting proposition, how they use Halfpenny will be key. If they get him playing like the attacking threat he used to be then losing Williams and DTH will be negated, he also offers them the option to be less open on occasions and grind out results.

They lost their first 3 games last season so a good start should stand them in good stead, though Ulster won their first five games last season so a good start or bad start mean nothing

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:46 pm

Just been on the Pro12/14 website - an absolute joke site by the way.
I worked in the computer world for 30+ years and to be honest it design reminds me of letting lose a 5 year old with a crayon.

I see it states Rory Best has made 230 appearances for Ulster - actually it is 198.
Then I find out 230 comes from Wiki - how any professional body can use wiki as a serious source or actual information is totally beyond me

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:03 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Just been on the Pro12/14 website - an absolute joke site by the way.
I worked in the computer world for 30+ years and to be honest it design reminds me of letting lose a 5 year old with a crayon.

I see it states Rory Best has made 230 appearances for Ulster - actually it is 198.
Then I find out 230 comes from Wiki - how any professional body can use wiki as a serious source or actual information is totally beyond me

They all tend to be slapped together now alright, reckon they're set up for a tablet/phone browsing and the desktop version is an afterthought.

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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by Pot Hale on Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:12 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Just been on the Pro12/14 website - an absolute joke site by the way.
I worked in the computer world for 30+ years and to be honest it design reminds me of letting lose a 5 year old with a crayon.

I see it states Rory Best has made 230 appearances for Ulster - actually it is 198.
Then I find out 230 comes from Wiki - how any professional body can use wiki as a serious source or actual information is totally beyond me

They all tend to be slapped together now alright, reckon they're set up for a tablet/phone browsing and the desktop version is an afterthought.

No it's Poopie whatever platform you view it on. Badly designed, lack of user intuition, poor layout, out of date content, etc, etc. Whoever is in charge of communications needs a foot in the Aras.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:27 pm

marty2086 wrote:Scarlets will be an interesting proposition, how they use Halfpenny will be key. If they get him playing like the attacking threat he used to be then losing Williams and DTH will be negated, he also offers them the option to be less open on occasions and grind out results.

They lost their first 3 games last season so a good start should stand them in good stead, though Ulster won their first five games last season so a good start or bad start mean nothing

We hit a good patch, at the right time, last season. Not sure we will be so fortunate this season. I think we will be looking at 2/3 in the conference, depending on if you sign a fly half.
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Re: The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

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