The conundrum of Sam.

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The conundrum of Sam.

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 9:34 am

This forum has gone a little bit daft over the last few days, so here is my attempt to make a sensible article.

Let me start by saying that based on his performance over the 2nd and 3rd test it is now my opinion that Sam Warburton is the best openside flanker in the world. I don't want to get into a willy waving exchange, that is my opinion.

He was showing that kind of form in the 6N before getting injured and the gamble Gatland made to bring him paid off big time, if only for his Jedi Mind trick on Poite to get him to downgrade what should have been a penalty to a scrum. If I was Ken Owens I'd find out what Sam likes and make sure he has an abundant supply of it for the rest of his life.

The conundrum comes in for when he plays for Wales.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/ditching-captaincy-gets-sam-warburton-12422744

I'm using Wales online as a reference because it is a very Welsh based publisher and I don't want this to be construed as a dig at anyone.

When Warburton was dropped as Wales captain and AWJ took over for the 6N I think we can all agree that it had a hugely positive impact on the way Warburton was playing. In a 6N where Wales were below their high standard Warburton was consistently good in every test he played in. Most importantly he was not the captain. Almost certainly a member of a leadership group within the squad but being unencumbered by the captaincy seemed to really make him perform much better.

Fast forward a few months and boom :

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/lionstour/british-and-irish-lions-2017-sam-warburton-new-zealand-all-blacks-a7832111.html

Sam Warburton, an all time great. No arguments here! As I said that Jedi Mind trick on Poite was actually terrifying. One minute it was a penalty, the next minute a scrum "this isn't the penalty you are looking for".

Now the conundrum. Will Warren Gatland name him Wales captain, or do you think AWJ will continue as Wales captain next season?
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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 9:36 am

Will he be captain?
Will he wear 6 or 7?

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 9:40 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Let me start by saying that based on his performance over the 2nd and 3rd test it is now my opinion that Sam Warburton is the best openside flanker in the world. I don't want to get into a willy waving exchange, that is my opinion.

Sorry but you are saying he is the best openside based on his performances as a blindside? Headscratch

Im no arguing against the quality of his performances but your assessment has a clear flaw in it

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by chris_501 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 9:42 am

He is almost certain to be playing at 6 for both Blues and Wales with Tips and Ellis Jenkins at 7.

As for captain, I would say no, AWJ will be captain for one more season, then hopefully some of our young locks will take his place as a starter after that.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by cascough on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 9:45 am

marty2086 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Let me start by saying that based on his performance over the 2nd and 3rd test it is now my opinion that Sam Warburton is the best openside flanker in the world. I don't want to get into a willy waving exchange, that is my opinion.

Sorry but you are saying he is the best openside based on his performances as a blindside? Headscratch

Im no arguing against the quality of his performances but your assessment has a clear flaw in it

I'm not sure it's flawed, or at least there are precedents set elsewhere.

No-one says Pocock is the best 8 in the world, he's still performing the role of a 7. People seem willing to forget the number on his back when appraising his performances.

For me, Wales' best back row is Moriarty, Warburton, Faletau.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by Scottrf on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 9:47 am

Wales wouldn't have gotten so close to England last 6N without Tipuric on the pitch. He disrupted our ball so much.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 9:48 am

marty2086 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Let me start by saying that based on his performance over the 2nd and 3rd test it is now my opinion that Sam Warburton is the best openside flanker in the world. I don't want to get into a willy waving exchange, that is my opinion.

Sorry but you are saying he is the best openside based on his performances as a blindside? Headscratch

Im no arguing against the quality of his performances but your assessment has a clear flaw in it

He didn't play like a blind side though. Have a look at his breakdown work in the 2nd test in particular. There is a reason the All Blacks didn't score a try, and he is that reason. The disruption he caused by getting his hands on the ball and slowing it down.

Whatever the Lions flaws were, the rush defence wasn't one of them, and Sam's work at the breakdown was proper mongrel openside work, and that gave the Lions defence time to set.

Is the way forward for Wale to have Warbs at 6 and Tipuric at 7 both playing like opensides? Or do they want Moriarty at 6 with Tipuric bringing impact from the bench.

Whatever number Warburton had on his back for the lions he was playing like a 7 and he did it as well as I have ever seen anyone play that way.
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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 9:58 am

You get the best out of Warburton with another 7 on the field though. He needs others to take on some of the workload from him to free him up to focus on less responsibilities

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 10:00 am

He was very good in the 3rd test. Think its set in stone he'll move back to 7 with moriarty and faletau in the back row for wales. Not sure what Tipuric has to do to be mentioned in the same reverence though. If there's one guy I'd love from wales in the england team it's him.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by cascough on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 10:04 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Let me start by saying that based on his performance over the 2nd and 3rd test it is now my opinion that Sam Warburton is the best openside flanker in the world. I don't want to get into a willy waving exchange, that is my opinion.

Sorry but you are saying he is the best openside based on his performances as a blindside? Headscratch

Im no arguing against the quality of his performances but your assessment has a clear flaw in it

He didn't play like a blind side though. Have a look at his breakdown work in the 2nd test in particular. There is a reason the All Blacks didn't score a try, and he is that reason. The disruption he caused by getting his hands on the ball and slowing it down.

Whatever the Lions flaws were, the rush defence wasn't one of them, and Sam's work at the breakdown was proper mongrel openside work, and that gave the Lions defence time to set.

Is the way forward for Wale to have Warbs at 6 and Tipuric at 7 both playing like opensides? Or do they want Moriarty at 6 with Tipuric bringing impact from the bench.

Whatever number Warburton had on his back for the lions he was playing like a 7 and he did it as well as I have ever seen anyone play that way.

It works with SOB because SOB is still able to provide some physicality IMO. I think you'll lose some of that if you're swapping SOB for Tipuric.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 10:08 am

cascough wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Let me start by saying that based on his performance over the 2nd and 3rd test it is now my opinion that Sam Warburton is the best openside flanker in the world. I don't want to get into a willy waving exchange, that is my opinion.

Sorry but you are saying he is the best openside based on his performances as a blindside? Headscratch

Im no arguing against the quality of his performances but your assessment has a clear flaw in it

He didn't play like a blind side though. Have a look at his breakdown work in the 2nd test in particular. There is a reason the All Blacks didn't score a try, and he is that reason. The disruption he caused by getting his hands on the ball and slowing it down.

Whatever the Lions flaws were, the rush defence wasn't one of them, and Sam's work at the breakdown was proper mongrel openside work, and that gave the Lions defence time to set.

Is the way forward for Wale to have Warbs at 6 and Tipuric at 7 both playing like opensides? Or do they want Moriarty at 6 with Tipuric bringing impact from the bench.

Whatever number Warburton had on his back for the lions he was playing like a 7 and he did it as well as I have ever seen anyone play that way.

It works with SOB because SOB is still able to provide some physicality IMO. I think you'll lose some of that if you're swapping SOB for Tipuric.

Aye. SOB is a 6.5 himself, & offers that bit of carrying. Tipuric does the link-man type 7 role more than the "fetcher"/ruck turnover one.

It's all about balance across the back 3 (and if you're lucky plus a bit of help from the locks)
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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by Scottrf on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 10:11 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Tipuric does the link-man type 7 role more than the "fetcher"/ruck turnover one.
Disagree. Watch Wales vs England from the 6 Nations.

You wont have to watch for long.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by BamBam on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 10:16 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
cascough wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Let me start by saying that based on his performance over the 2nd and 3rd test it is now my opinion that Sam Warburton is the best openside flanker in the world. I don't want to get into a willy waving exchange, that is my opinion.

Sorry but you are saying he is the best openside based on his performances as a blindside? Headscratch

Im no arguing against the quality of his performances but your assessment has a clear flaw in it

He didn't play like a blind side though. Have a look at his breakdown work in the 2nd test in particular. There is a reason the All Blacks didn't score a try, and he is that reason. The disruption he caused by getting his hands on the ball and slowing it down.

Whatever the Lions flaws were, the rush defence wasn't one of them, and Sam's work at the breakdown was proper mongrel openside work, and that gave the Lions defence time to set.

Is the way forward for Wale to have Warbs at 6 and Tipuric at 7 both playing like opensides? Or do they want Moriarty at 6 with Tipuric bringing impact from the bench.

Whatever number Warburton had on his back for the lions he was playing like a 7 and he did it as well as I have ever seen anyone play that way.

It works with SOB because SOB is still able to provide some physicality IMO. I think you'll lose some of that if you're swapping SOB for Tipuric.

Aye. SOB is a 6.5 himself, & offers that bit of carrying. Tipuric does the link-man type 7 role more than the "fetcher"/ruck turnover one.

It's all about balance across the back 3 (and if you're lucky plus a bit of help from the locks)

*Resists temptation to bring up the likelihood of help from one of Wales locks*

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 10:16 am

Shingler Tipuric and faletau....I'm happy we will never face that personally.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 10:25 am

BamBam wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
cascough wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Let me start by saying that based on his performance over the 2nd and 3rd test it is now my opinion that Sam Warburton is the best openside flanker in the world. I don't want to get into a willy waving exchange, that is my opinion.

Sorry but you are saying he is the best openside based on his performances as a blindside? Headscratch

Im no arguing against the quality of his performances but your assessment has a clear flaw in it

He didn't play like a blind side though. Have a look at his breakdown work in the 2nd test in particular. There is a reason the All Blacks didn't score a try, and he is that reason. The disruption he caused by getting his hands on the ball and slowing it down.

Whatever the Lions flaws were, the rush defence wasn't one of them, and Sam's work at the breakdown was proper mongrel openside work, and that gave the Lions defence time to set.

Is the way forward for Wale to have Warbs at 6 and Tipuric at 7 both playing like opensides? Or do they want Moriarty at 6 with Tipuric bringing impact from the bench.

Whatever number Warburton had on his back for the lions he was playing like a 7 and he did it as well as I have ever seen anyone play that way.

It works with SOB because SOB is still able to provide some physicality IMO. I think you'll lose some of that if you're swapping SOB for Tipuric.

Aye. SOB is a 6.5 himself, & offers that bit of carrying. Tipuric does the link-man type 7 role more than the "fetcher"/ruck turnover one.

It's all about balance across the back 3 (and if you're lucky plus a bit of help from the locks)

*Resists temptation to bring up the likelihood of help from one of Wales locks*

Now now. According to WOL Jake "7/10" Ball's a match for Brodie Retallick.
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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by beshocked on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 10:27 am

I do think Wales should stick with Warburton,Tipuric and Faletau.

It's not the Welsh backrow which needs freshening up. It's the front five that does IMO.

I do think Wales do need to look for a new captain but it's not clear who should get the role - no outstanding candidate.

I would perhaps be a bit unorthodox - pick Webb. Let Warburton focus on his playing instead of captaincy.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by RiscaGame on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 10:27 am

AWJ will be captain, I think.

I feel Sam is under pressure more as Wales captain. Not just the captaincy and the way the public scrutinise results etc, but also the pressure from Tipuric.

I watched the Lions DVD from 2013 and was surprised how well he spoke. Swearing for a start, which seems a little out of character. Have to be honest, his speech before the first test on 13 is one of my favourites purely because of the pile them talk.

I've heard a lot said by Gatland before about how referees like Sam, but never really thought much of it until the end of that test.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by RiscaGame on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 10:30 am

I also liked in the third test how he wasn't afraid to lean on others for advice, such as when he consulted AWJ before they kicked a penalty.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by eirebilly on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 10:58 am

I think Warburton is a great squad captain but maybe not the best on field captain. Excellent player and was one of the better Lions in the test series.. Certainly up there with the best in the world.
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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by Scottrf on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:01 am

His on field captaincy did stop us losing the series though.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:05 am

Scottrf wrote:His on field captaincy did stop us losing the series though.

In a sentence, that's the point I was trying to make.
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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by PhilBB on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:08 am

People get confused about on field captaincy. They think it's all about emotion, shouting at players, encouraging team mates.

It isn't.

It's about managing the ref. Can anybody name me a better ref manager in world rugby than Warburton?
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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by eirebilly on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:17 am

He made a good call at the end of the 3rd test, I agree. My point is, I don't think he managed to compose the lads very well in the second test when they were giving away penalties at an alarming rate. That is what I deem to be the most important part of on field captaincy.

This is not a slight on the man as I think he is one of the best in the world but I feel he may not be as strong an on field captain as many would believe. Off the field, he is an excellent leader.
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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:21 am

PhilBB wrote:People get confused about on field captaincy. They think it's all about emotion, shouting at players, encouraging team mates.

It isn't.

It's about managing the ref. Can anybody name me a better ref manager in world rugby than Warburton?

McCaw was better. I'd have nominated Read but he slipped a bit this year.

Moore and Best come across a bit whiney, Haskell/Hartley didn't handle the Italian no-rucks situation well. Robshaw is good, shame about the tactical calls, and Laidlaw is OK
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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:21 am

I like Warburton, as a person, and a player, but for me he is not even the best 7 at Cardiff.

Why?

Because he hardly ever plays for them. If he is not injured, he gets injured and has to come off. Then come the AI, 6N or a Lions tour, he is miraculously proclaiming himself to be in the best shape he has ever been.

If Warburton showed as much commitment to the Cardiff Blues jersey has he does for the Welsh jersey then he would command a hell of a lot more respect.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:23 am

LordDowlais wrote:I like Warburton, as a person, and a player, but for me he is not even the best 7 at Cardiff.

Why?

Because he hardly ever plays for them. If he is not injured, he gets injured and has to come off. Then come the AI, 6N or a Lions tour, he is miraculously proclaiming himself to be in the best shape he has ever been.

If Warburton showed as much commitment to the Cardiff Blues jersey has he does for the Welsh jersey then he would command a hell of a lot more respect.

That's an interesting point. Not really following the blues I tend not to see how often he is absent. I'm presuming from this comment he is a ghost at the Arms Park?
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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:23 am

Went through the Italian rucks thing at length at the time Pete, not too sure there was.much more that Hartley along with haskell and Launchbury could have done.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:27 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I like Warburton, as a person, and a player, but for me he is not even the best 7 at Cardiff.

Why?

Because he hardly ever plays for them. If he is not injured, he gets injured and has to come off. Then come the AI, 6N or a Lions tour, he is miraculously proclaiming himself to be in the best shape he has ever been.

If Warburton showed as much commitment to the Cardiff Blues jersey has he does for the Welsh jersey then he would command a hell of a lot more respect.

That's an interesting point. Not really following the blues I tend not to see how often he is absent. I'm presuming from this comment he is a ghost at the Arms Park?

I will not go into stats, and looking on websites for them to post on here, but I am sure somebody will, if only to prove me wrong, but I would wager, that Sam has played just as much games for Wales as he has for Cardiff Blues this season, and when you consider the ratio of games, that would be quite a telling stat.

He hardly ever plays in the Pro12 because of injury.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by beshocked on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:33 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
PhilBB wrote:People get confused about on field captaincy. They think it's all about emotion, shouting at players, encouraging team mates.

It isn't.

It's about managing the ref. Can anybody name me a better ref manager in world rugby than Warburton?

McCaw was better. I'd have nominated Read but he slipped a bit this year.

Moore and Best come across a bit whiney, Haskell/Hartley didn't handle the Italian no-rucks situation well. Robshaw is good, shame about the tactical calls, and Laidlaw is OK

Pete C, Hartley can do no wrong in the opinion of some posters.

Personally I agree. I thought Hartley was completely clueless vs the Italians. When you need Haskell to be your interpreter, you are in trouble.

Leadership wise, Hartley was missing in action vs Wales,France and Ireland too.

Fine vs Scotland but in a 60 odd point romp with Scotland acting like rabbits caught in the headlights it was a walk in the park.


Being a leader doesn't mean you need to be captain. There should be multiple leaders in a team.

One thing you could say about Warburton, he doesn't hang onto the coat tails of others.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:35 am

Nice dig. Would you like to explain what he did wrong then beshocked? Or re read the thread at the time.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:37 am

beshocked wrote:One thing you could say about Warburton, he doesn't hang onto the coat tails of others.

That is one thing where he stands out head and shoulders, he tends to lead by example. Warburton never takes a backwards step, and for the most part does his talking on the pitch. He is very polite and well spoken to the referees as well, something Keiran Read should have taken note of when playing against the Lions. Very Happy

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by Scottrf on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:39 am

beshocked wrote:One thing you could say about Warburton, he doesn't hang onto the coat tails of others.
Really? Two comments on this thread wouldn't really support this:

Needs AWJ to take over captaincy to play well.
Consults AWJ for decisions.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:41 am

Scottrf wrote:
beshocked wrote:One thing you could say about Warburton, he doesn't hang onto the coat tails of others.
Really? Two comments on this thread wouldn't really support this:

Needs AWJ to take over captaincy to play well.
Consults AWJ for decisions.

Thats not hanging onto coat tails though is it ?

Hanging onto coat tails is taking the credit for something somebody else is doing and using it to score points off others.

What you have just showed us is Warburton is not afraid to ask the advice of another captain, which is a sign of good leadership.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by Griff on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:42 am

LordDowlais wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I like Warburton, as a person, and a player, but for me he is not even the best 7 at Cardiff.

Why?

Because he hardly ever plays for them. If he is not injured, he gets injured and has to come off. Then come the AI, 6N or a Lions tour, he is miraculously proclaiming himself to be in the best shape he has ever been.

If Warburton showed as much commitment to the Cardiff Blues jersey has he does for the Welsh jersey then he would command a hell of a lot more respect.

That's an interesting point. Not really following the blues I tend not to see how often he is absent. I'm presuming from this comment he is a ghost at the Arms Park?

I will not go into stats, and looking on websites for them to post on here, but I am sure somebody will, if only to prove me wrong, but I would wager, that Sam has played just as much games for Wales as he has for Cardiff Blues this season, and when you consider the ratio of games, that would be quite a telling stat.

He hardly ever plays in the Pro12 because of injury.

106 caps for Blues, 74 for Wales, 5 for Lions.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:44 am

Allied to not putting an arm around the shoulder of mako and telling him to calm down. Granted it's harder for that aspect of captaincy when it's a team full of people you probably don't know well and don't know how they react.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:44 am

106 caps for his club does seem a bit paltry.
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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:46 am

Griff wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I like Warburton, as a person, and a player, but for me he is not even the best 7 at Cardiff.

Why?

Because he hardly ever plays for them. If he is not injured, he gets injured and has to come off. Then come the AI, 6N or a Lions tour, he is miraculously proclaiming himself to be in the best shape he has ever been.

If Warburton showed as much commitment to the Cardiff Blues jersey has he does for the Welsh jersey then he would command a hell of a lot more respect.

That's an interesting point. Not really following the blues I tend not to see how often he is absent. I'm presuming from this comment he is a ghost at the Arms Park?

I will not go into stats, and looking on websites for them to post on here, but I am sure somebody will, if only to prove me wrong, but I would wager, that Sam has played just as much games for Wales as he has for Cardiff Blues this season, and when you consider the ratio of games, that would be quite a telling stat.

He hardly ever plays in the Pro12 because of injury.

106 caps for Blues, 74 for Wales, 5 for Lions.

Is that his whole career so far ?

Feck me. That doesn't make good reading.

What does the last 12 months look like ?


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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by beshocked on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:46 am

Being completely bamboozled by the Italians and needing Haskell to talk to the ref on his behalf.

Haskell is not the England captain and yet he was the one chatting to the ref, trying to get clarity.

Scottrf surely that's Warburton helping AWJ, not the other way round.

Consulting is not something new but the captain should have the final say and should be the most pro active.

As I said you can have more than one leader on the pitch.


no 7 & 1/2 and yet there were sufficient players to calm down Sinckler with Murray and George being at the heart of that.


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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by Scottrf on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:47 am

beshocked wrote:Being completely bamboozled by the Italians and needing Haskell to talk to the ref on his behalf.
You mean despite him telling Haskell to stop talking?

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:51 am

Stuart Hogg, for comparrison has a hundred caps for Glasgow at just 24 years old. Granted there is probably a bit less wear and tear playing at 15 as opposed to being a loose forward, but you get the thrust.

Even Barclay has made 85 appearances for the Scarlets and has only been there since 2014.

I guess that must be quite frustrating for Blues fans, since they no doubt would need his expertise. I can remember the same being said about BOD in terms of his Leinster appearences during the latter stages of his career.
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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by beshocked on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:52 am

Scottrf wrote:
beshocked wrote:Being completely bamboozled by the Italians and needing Haskell to talk to the ref on his behalf.
You mean despite him telling Haskell to stop talking?

However you pro - Hartley fans want to interpret it, he still lost control of the situation. Haskell wouldn't go talking to the ref, if Hartley had everything under control.

Haskell wanted clarity, understandably and it wasn't coming from Hartley.

Warburton wouldn't have the same difficulty I expect.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:54 am

I'm not sure I understand you beshocked on the mako point, I think you're saying it's not up to him to spot that mako was a bit wound up? Perhaps you're right george should have been calming him but I personally think there's a bit of onus on the captain as well.

Bamboozled by the Italians is correct as Poite was not really consistent, as I said at the time really hard for any ref to officiate in those circumstances. Haskell had of course played against that same tactic and was being told by Poite that England couldn't combat it the same way as his super rugby side had. For my money they went through options during the first half a bit slowly but I dunt anyone would have reacted that much quicker.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by Scottrf on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:55 am

Haskell and Hughes had actually employed the Italian tactic with Wasps.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:56 am

Ps your points about wales france and Ireland re captaincy are more to do with performance if I remember correct beshocked, unless you've changed your discussion point there.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by Griff on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:56 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Griff wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I like Warburton, as a person, and a player, but for me he is not even the best 7 at Cardiff.

Why?

Because he hardly ever plays for them. If he is not injured, he gets injured and has to come off. Then come the AI, 6N or a Lions tour, he is miraculously proclaiming himself to be in the best shape he has ever been.

If Warburton showed as much commitment to the Cardiff Blues jersey has he does for the Welsh jersey then he would command a hell of a lot more respect.

That's an interesting point. Not really following the blues I tend not to see how often he is absent. I'm presuming from this comment he is a ghost at the Arms Park?

I will not go into stats, and looking on websites for them to post on here, but I am sure somebody will, if only to prove me wrong, but I would wager, that Sam has played just as much games for Wales as he has for Cardiff Blues this season, and when you consider the ratio of games, that would be quite a telling stat.

He hardly ever plays in the Pro12 because of injury.

106 caps for Blues, 74 for Wales, 5 for Lions.

Is that his whole career so far ?

Feck me. That doesn't make good reading.

What does the last 12 months look like ?

This season (just gone) he played 14 games for the blues, and 3 of those were less than 40 mins action. For Wales it was 7 games. And 3 tests for the Lions.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:58 am

There have been different interpretations to what constitutes a maul though scott haven't there? In combination to the fact that some of the calls for maul or just a tackle were incorrect. It's hard to react to something which isn't consistent. Again no real criticism to the ref, massively hard to judge.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:59 am

Griff wrote:This season (just gone) he played 14 games for the blues, and 3 of those were less than 40 mins action. For Wales it was 7 games. And 3 tests for the Lions

That does not make for good reading. For some reason he can never get fully fit for Cardiff, but when international honours are up for grabs, he seems as right as rain. chin

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by beshocked on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 12:00 pm

No 7 & 1/2 it depends on where a player is.  I haven't looked at the specific Mako incident to see if Warburton was closest or indeed George.

In the Sinckler situation, it was quickly neutralised.

You expect a captain to be at the heart of tactical changes needed.

Waburton is a leader, he doesn't need to be captain.


Not at all - England were flat and lackluster. England improved in the absence of Hartley vs Wales and France. Against Ireland, they were flat throughout the full 80.

Leadership was poor aside from the Scotland game.

Warburton had a good 6 nations and led by example through his performances.


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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 12:02 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Griff wrote:This season (just gone) he played 14 games for the blues, and 3 of those were less than 40 mins action. For Wales it was 7 games. And 3 tests for the Lions

That does not make for good reading. For some reason he can never get fully fit for Cardiff, but when international honours are up for grabs, he seems as right as rain. chin

It happens with a lot of Wales front line players, Lee Byrne said in the run up to the Lions tour that you would see Warburton and some others miss club games through injury and it happened


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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 12:06 pm

marty2086 wrote:It happens with a lot of Wales front line players, Lee Byrne said in the run up to the Lions tour that you would see Warburton and some others miss club games through injury and it happened

I cannot recall any other player having Sam Warburton's record.

AWJ, Rhys Webb, Dan Biggar, Liam Williams, Rob Evans, well most of our Welsh players are ever present in their regional fixtures.

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Re: The conundrum of Sam.

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