Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

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Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:41 pm

Toni comments on Federer

Uncle Toni has a few choice words about the 2017 Wimbledon champion. (translated from El Pais)

Last year at this time I had the opportunity to exchange anecdotes and impressions with Roger Federer's manager Tony Godsick and his wife Mary Jo Fernandez. His children, good friends of ours, were at the Rafa Nadal Academy and we went out to dinner together.

Whenever I have an occasion I like to investigate and try to discover what things people do or have done with professional success that distinguishes them from the others. And that's what happened to Tony that night about the Swiss player. I was surprised by what he told me. Contrary to what I had deduced, Roger is not a very disciplined or very methodical player. Apparently he does not take care of his food and his rest routines.

He also told me that at one point he had offered to give him the statistics and descriptive data we have today thanks to the technologies, and Federer flatly rejected it. He argued that he likes a more impromptu game and that he did not want to be encrusted by data that predisposed him on what he had to do. What the manager asserted and emphasized, however, was that for Roger tennis is his life, his obsession, the only thing that occupies his thinking. I guess he exaggerated that last one. I imagine that his children and his family also occupy him.

Other than some ever so slightly sour grapes, I take from these comments that Federer is, if not exactly coasting, playing without the obsessive focus that has at times characterised the rest of the big four. He's left room for improvisation, for junk food, for family.

If true, I think this balanced approach goes some way to explain why he's still enjoying the game and, I hope, bodes very well for Fed's longevity.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by lags72 on Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:32 pm

Interesting - up to a point. But some serious caution needed here methinks.

Do you happen to know who provided the translation ?

As someone who spent many years studying languages, I'm always very wary of translations. And with good reason - all too often they can present a distorted picture. This one may, or may not, be an accurate representation of the original ; but it certainly reads very oddly in parts, and that in itself tends to make me something of a cynic.

I'm also a little unclear as to why Tony G. would be involved in any purely technical aspects of the game. My understanding is that his role is that of Business Manager / agent. But perhaps I've got that wrong.....

The notion that Federer does not obsess over food & diet (to the extent that many players reportedly do) seems perfectly credible. But I seriously doubt anyone could maintain the sort of supreme fitness levels that he does by being totally careless about how and what one eats.

I assume the 'workshy fop' tag in the thread title is your own assessment of Toni's comments .... ?  In all fairness to Uncle T, I seriously doubt that this was the message he was trying to convey. Even if we accept the translation at face value, I would struggle to find anything in the piece that justifies such a tag.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:18 am

Erm so this was meant to be a light hearted post, but I guess that got lost in translation.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Henman Bill on Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:30 am

Original appears to be this
https://elpais.com/deportes/2017/07/16/actualidad/1500164245_460673.html
I read the original. The translation is accurate.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:50 am

Opinion and perspective. This seems about right. From the Toni Nadal perspective everyone is a slacker. Fortunately for him he had a nephew who was willing to go through the Toni Nadal training regime. Not to take anything away from Rafael Nadal - but Rafael Nadal was made into an all time great tennis player - whereas Roger Federer was "more of a natural".

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Haddie-nuff on Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:26 am

No name Bertie wrote:Opinion and perspective.  This seems about right.  From the Toni Nadal perspective everyone is a slacker.  Fortunately for him he had a nephew who was willing to go through the Toni Nadal training regime.  Not to take anything away from Rafael Nadal - but Rafael Nadal was made into an all time great tennis player - whereas Roger Federer was "more of a natural".


That must be the wildest assumption Ive heard on 606..really !!!!!!!!!!!! picard

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:11 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:Opinion and perspective.  This seems about right.  From the Toni Nadal perspective everyone is a slacker.  Fortunately for him he had a nephew who was willing to go through the Toni Nadal training regime.  Not to take anything away from Rafael Nadal - but Rafael Nadal was made into an all time great tennis player - whereas Roger Federer was "more of a natural".


That must be the wildest assumption Ive heard on 606..really !!!!!!!!!!!! picard
So you don't disagree with me - you are just asserting it is a wild assumption. But it is not a wild assumption, rather it is a carefully arrived at deduction.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Haddie-nuff on Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:27 am

To assume that little 4 yr old boy nurtured by a loving Uncle had no born talent but was "manufactured" is a wild assumption .. you have no knowledge of the talent that little boy showed. The idolism of Federer on this forum is at times quite sickening.. Federer has said on many occasions that Rafa has made him the player he is. So as far as I'm concerned your carefully arrived deduction is totally up the creek. If a player is so easily "made" rather than born why have we not got a whole string of Rafa Nadals

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by laverfan on Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:43 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:Federer has said on many occasions that Rafa has made him the player he is.

Nadal is also the player he is because of Federer, so it is a two-way street, whether UT is willing to admit it or not.


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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by laverfan on Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:51 am

reckoner wrote:Toni comments on Federer

Uncle Toni has a few choice words about the 2017 Wimbledon champion. (translated from El Pais)



He also told me that at one point he had offered to give him the statistics and descriptive data we have today thanks to the technologies, and Federer flatly rejected it. He argued that he likes a more impromptu game and that he did not want to be encrusted by data that predisposed him on what he had to do. What the manager asserted and emphasized, however, was that for Roger tennis is his life, his obsession, the only thing that occupies his thinking. I guess he exaggerated that last one. I imagine that his children and his family also occupy him.

There is a significant difference between Amazon building a data warehouse and deducing patterns in buyers' shopping carts and a unique player, whether it be Nadal or Federer. I would ask UT, if the occasion permitted, whether the same argument can be made for many other players.

Statistics can be unnecessarily restricting and cause too many correlation coefficients to be derived, which do not help players' instincts at the level at which Federer and Nadal play.

Federer took six+ months off without the GOAT app on his iPhone telling him to take a break. laughing

Now Djokovic may be a specific case where such an application may lead to better results. Whistle

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Haddie-nuff on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:11 am

laverfan wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:Federer has said on many occasions that Rafa has made him the player he is.

Nadal is also the player he is because of Federer, so it is a two-way street, whether UT is willing to admit it or not



That's not the point I was making LF.. Rafa had just as much talernt
.


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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:19 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:To assume that little 4 yr old boy nurtured by a loving Uncle had no born talent but was "manufactured" is a wild assumption .. you have no knowledge of the talent that little boy showed. The idolism of Federer on this forum is at times quite sickening.. Federer has said on many occasions that Rafa has made him the player he is.  So as far as I'm concerned your carefully arrived deduction is totally up the creek. If a player is so easily "made" rather than born why have we not got a whole string of Rafa Nadals
This was factored into my carefully arrived at deductions. I did not say "easily" made. I said he was "made" and he was made by Toni Nadal - the subject of this thread. Not everyone has a Toni Nadal. Without Toni Nadal, Rafael Nadal would not be where he is today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toni_Nadal

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Haddie-nuff on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:23 am

It doesn't matter to me what you think I have made a study of Rafa Nadal,. I have only come into the forum in answer to what I think to be an insult.. pardon me whilst I disappear again Ive only just buried my husband

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:46 am

It was not intended as an insult.  In my view most people are "made" in the sense that skill sets and knowledge need to be taught through education and training.  I am sorry if my words seemed harsh.  I was just trying to say that Toni Nadal comments on Roger Federer should not be viewed as Toni Nadal being nasty or a case of sour grapes (as suggested by the original post).

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:50 am

Rafa was 'made' into an ATG whilst Fed was more of a natural talent?
Please!
Rafa was so talented that the very first time he played against Fed he already knew how to play the game to beat Fed, by forcing Fed back and coming to the net to finish the point. I doubt Toni Nadal had the game plan to deal with Fed at that time to instruct his charge how to play against Fed!

If anything, Rafa has all the inherent qualities to become an ATG - speed and athleticism, raw power, naturally competitive spirit, hard working attitude, good hand and eye coordination, the ability to learn things quick enough, etc and etc.

I was amazed with the 17 yo Rafa, the way he dealt with Fed, with calm, with the ability to play the right shot at the right time to win the point, IOW, he already had good court craft/court sense at that young age. IMO, a coach can only teach you so much, it's up to the player to go out there to figure out how to play the points, for many, it takes some time for them to figure things out but not for Rafa.

If Rafa doesn't have that ability (talent), he won't be able to trouble Fed in their matches right from day one when they met. Rafa has all the tools to be an attacking player, but Toni had turned him into a counterpuncher. I was thinking to myself, what a waste, when Rafa could be an all out attacker and that would save him all the grinding, and the subsequent injury issues. However, Toni is one who understands Rafa right from when Rafa was a child; he understands that Rafa is one who enjoys the tussles, the fight, the process before getting a win. If it's just serve and serve or attacking and attacking all the time for example, to win the match quickly and not much strategy involved, I believe Rafa would get bored. So, Rafa does seem to enjoy the fight, the use of strategies or tactics to win the points and the match, more than just bang down a few big serves to get a quick win.

An attacking game may look more attractive, but the game that Rafa plays, i.e. defense and then turning it into offense and counter attacks, is harder to play imo, when it involves more strategic thinking, how to find your way out from an attack and then think of how to strike back.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:15 pm

Without Toni Nadal, who understands Rafa to the core, Rafa may still be an ATG in all likelihood, as he has all the inherent qualities to be one; but, he will most likely be a more attacking player. His career may be shorter than what he has now, when he may quit early probably out of boredom!


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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:09 pm

I don't understand why Nadal fans are getting so combative. My post was meant to be light hearted in spirit, with a hopefully interesting insight into how Toni sees Federer. Though the title was a bit tabloid, in the article Toni does seem avuncularly disappointed at Federer's lack of application and discipline, which I found really quite funny.

Additionally I found it interesting that Federer rejects some of the rituals of the modern tennis player - stats, nutrition etc. In my view this just adds to his legend, amplifies the persona of Fed as a walking dad joke who happens to be really good at tennis, that I personally much prefer to the earnest, serious, 110%, I will try harder platitudes spouted by most other players or the totally clueless arrogance of up and coming 20 year olds.






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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by kemet on Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:21 pm

Rafael Nadal is simply this generation's version of Bjorn Borg, who was also well known for his very strict fitness regimens.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Haddie-nuff on Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:34 pm

reckoner wrote:I don't understand why Nadal fans are getting so combative. My post was meant to be light hearted in spirit, with a hopefully interesting insight into how Toni sees Federer. Though the title was a bit tabloid, in the article Toni does seem avuncularly disappointed at Federer's lack of application and discipline, which I found really quite funny.

Additionally I found it interesting that Federer rejects some of the rituals of the modern tennis player - stats, nutrition etc. In my view this just adds to his legend, amplifies the persona of Fed as a walking dad joke who happens to be really good at tennis, that I personally much prefer to the earnest, serious, 110%, I will try harder platitudes spouted by most other players or the totally clueless arrogance of up and coming 20 year olds.





but Rafael Nadal was made into an all time great tennis player - whereas Roger Federer was "more of a natural".


That's why ... I and any Nadal fan would dispute that statement

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Haddie-nuff on Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:59 pm

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/615175-rafael-nadal-is-he-more-naturally-talented-than-roger-federer

Seems we are not alone either

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:29 pm

"any Nadal fan" lol, I know plenty of Nadal fans that accept Federer is the better player. Nadal himself said as much. You gotta let it go you know, it isn't healthy to have the urge to "defend" a thirtysomething multimillionaire at all times.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:36 pm

Well I would say ALL of the big four are strict with their fitness regimen; it will be naive to think for e.g. that Fed is not strict in his fitness whilst Rafa is but Fed still could go toe to toe with Rafa for a few hours in a match!

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Haddie-nuff on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:44 pm

[quote="reckoner"]"any Nadal fan" lol, I know plenty of Nadal fans that accept Federer is the better player. Nadal himself said as much. You gotta let it go you know, it isn't healthy to have the urge to "defend" a thirtysomething multimillionaire at all times.[/quot


AGAIN a typical Federer fan deliberately missing the point.. we are not talking BETTER we are talking NATURAL... keep up


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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:50 pm

In sport a persons natural flair can be trained out of them.  Are there any examples of this?

Furthermore a person whose natural flair has been trained out of them - might have a more successful sporting career than one with natural flair but very little training.

Ps - the way I see this article - it is about Toni Nadal, and training and coaching.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:54 pm

No name Bertie wrote:In sport a persons natural flair can be trained out of them.  Are there any examples of this?

Furthermore a person whose natural flair has been trained out of them - might have a more successful sporting career than one with natural flair but very little training.

I wish I could think of someone...

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:54 pm

Didn't Federer spend ages without a coach while Nadal had on court coaching from Toni? Gives a pretty good indication of who's the natural I'd say.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Haddie-nuff on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:01 pm

it isn't healthy to have the urge to "defend" a thirtysomething multimillionaire at all times

Only if his name is Nadal and not Federer

Gives a pretty good indication of who's the natural I'd say.
only to you not the the above report I'd say

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:05 pm

And Toni Nadal, from what he said in El Pais.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:05 pm

Fed without a coach? No wonder he's losing the battles first to Rafa, then to Murray (at least in the Masters) and finally to Djoko! No wonder Fed was getting in Annacone, then Edberg and now Ljuby.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:06 pm

Well yeah he's got coaches now obv

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Haddie-nuff on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:09 pm

reckoner wrote:And Toni Nadal, from what he said in El Pais.

You are such a hypocrite you have just criticised me for defending Nadal... what may I ask are you doing. ?? if you are not doing the same for Federer..but then that's par for course on this forum Whistle



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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:11 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:
reckoner wrote:And Toni Nadal, from what he said in El Pais.

You are such a hypocrite you have just criticised me for defending Nadal... what may I ask are you doing. ?? if you are not doing the same for Federer..but then that's par for course on this forum Whistle



I'm not the one calling people names my dear. I'm perhaps being a bit childish in playing tit for tat with you, but to be honest your opinion of Federer bothers me not one jot.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Haddie-nuff on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:15 pm

Well Ill sleep better for that

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:15 pm

Andy Murray - mother is a tennis coach. Coincidence?
Tim Henman - his mother played in the Wimbledon junior tournament. His maternal grandfather played Wimbledon and represented GB in the Davis Cup. Coincidence?
Rafael Nadal - uncle was a professional tennis coach. Coincidence?
Often you will find in the tennis world - top tennis players coming from a family already associated with tennis - or who have a parent(s) who gives up part of their life in an attempt to turn their child into a tennis star.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:38 pm

Yeah pushy parents in tennis are legendary, Agassi's dad as well, Graf's too.

Federer's parents seem to be an exception - in recent interviews he said apparently they had quite low expectations and thought he might one day get to be good enough to play at regional level.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by lags72 on Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:01 pm

Doncha just love a bit of nostalgia .....? It really is like old times !

Like a whole decade ago, in fact : Federer wins the Australian ...... Nadal wins the French ..... Federer wins Wimbledon.

And Fedal loyalists go round in circles trying to decide who was blessed with the most natural talent.

Ever get the feeling of being stuck in a 2007 time warp........  chin

PS message to the young aspirers  Please get your act together, and give us something new to talk about !!

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Henman Bill on Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:26 pm

So 2007 Federer won the US Open. Smile Was that the year of the famous premature speculation on the forum (v1) about Djokovic winning it.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by lags72 on Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:50 pm

Ha ha. Had forgotten about that  ..... but I do believe it was !

Or ..... to coin a much-loved familiar v1 606 refrain : 'Irrefutable'

Can't help but wonder at the pain & suffering being endured by so many of our once-prolific 606 posters, now departed from the scene long ago - but surely perplexed, bemused, and in utter despair at Federer's latest reincarnation as a multi-Slam holder. After all, there's only so much that trauma counselling can do ........

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:27 pm

"chilling warning" Bubbly  

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by lags72 on Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:23 pm

Ah yes ...... the chilling warnings .....  Shocked

I'm reminded of such warnings, back in the day, from the likes of the infamous Unbiased Educator (or Uneducated Biased as he soon became known of course .....), and the seemingly-endless nonsense he and his sympathisers managed to produce.

Periodically UE would return under a whole variety of different user names - either in consequence of a ban, or in the forlorn hope that readers would actually begin to take his bizarre ramblings seriously. He would invariably attempt to imply that he was a brand new member who had never previously posted, and seemed genuinely offended when his original identity was promptly rumbled. Promptly, as in ...... around five minutes flat.

On balance, it's undoubtedly a good thing that he (along with the other WUM's who had no serious interest in tennis) gradually all gave up ; but there are certainly times when a part of me wishes they were still around - purely for their comedic factor.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:10 am

I'd never encountered online trolls before the original 606 - often wondered what possessed people to behave like that. I suppose after the Sampras slam total was eclipsed the likes of Wise Analyst couldn't really continue doing Fed down. Ah, innocent times....

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by beshocked on Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:46 am

Federer is the more naturally talented player obviously.

He wins more cheap points, hits more winners and expends less energy, his game is more well rounded and variable.

Some players are good servers, some players are athletes, some are shotmakers, some are good at the net - Federer is all of the above.

Don't get me wrong - Nadal is great in his own way but he's not the tennis genius that Federer is.

Nadal doesn't play with the same effortless ease. Nadal grunts with exertion and moves around the court with athleticism and power in tandem. He is still an interesting player to watch, especially when involved in titanic contests.


The likes of Murray,Djokovic and Nadal in my opinion have focused more on the athletic side of tennis, it makes them difficult to break down but vulnerable if their fitness lets them down.

Federer is not as athletic as his main rivals so has had to offset this with a game which consumes less energy. It's why he's still so good at 35.


Djokovic has very much focused on the fitness side of tennis - living in an egg chamber and really pushing the boundaries in that area.


Federer gives the impression he doesn't need to work as hard as his main rivals but I believe it's mainly down to his game style.

Sure Federer's movement is still quite good but it's not as impressive as a Nadal,Djokovic or Murray.


Of Federer's rivals, I think Murray has the most potential to play a game style most like Federer's but too often goes into his shell.

Fear factor seemed to be on display this year in both French Open and Wimbledon.

Federer clearly didn't feel confident that he could defeat Nadal at the French and his decision paid off.

Playing Nadal at the French and Federer at Wimbledon is never easy and you get the impression that from most players there was a lack of belief to actually defeat them.

Perhaps the exception was Berdych who perhaps put up the best fight of the lot and sometimes the opposition is just too good.

For both the French Open and Wimbledon finals to be so one sided..... well... it does show how well respected both Nadal and Federer are - it's not as if the finalists were inexperienced either.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by sirfredperry on Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:00 am

It could be argued that Fed's style of play means he doesn't have to be as athletic as the others of the Big Four. He has less court to cover as he stands so far in and takes the ball so early. 
   On grass in particular, Rog can get so many cheap points on his serve that his opponent can find himself serving again in less than one-a-half minutes. Look at Rog's service action.Hardly any windup and smooth as you like. He can go out wide or down the T.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by kemet on Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:17 pm

beshocked wrote:Federer is the more naturally talented player obviously.

He wins more cheap points, hits more winners and expends less energy, his game is more well rounded and variable.

Some players are good servers, some players are athletes, some are shotmakers, some are good at the net - Federer is all of the above.

Don't get me wrong - Nadal is great in his own way but he's not the tennis genius that Federer is.

Nadal doesn't play with the same effortless ease. Nadal grunts with exertion and moves around the court with athleticism and power in tandem. He is still an interesting player to watch, especially when involved in titanic contests.


The likes of Murray,Djokovic and Nadal in my opinion have focused more on the athletic side of tennis, it makes them difficult to break down but vulnerable if their fitness lets them down.

Federer is not as athletic as his main rivals so has had to offset this with a game which consumes less energy.  It's why he's still so good at 35.


Djokovic has very much focused on the fitness side of tennis - living in an egg chamber and really pushing the boundaries in that area.


Federer gives the impression he doesn't need to work as hard as his main rivals but I believe it's mainly down to his game style.

Sure Federer's movement is still quite good but it's not as impressive as a Nadal,Djokovic or Murray.


Of Federer's rivals, I think Murray has the most potential to play a game style most like Federer's but too often goes into his shell.

Fear factor seemed to be on display this year in both French Open and Wimbledon.

Federer clearly didn't feel confident that he could defeat Nadal at the French and his decision paid off.

Playing Nadal at the French and Federer at Wimbledon is never easy and you get the impression that from most players there was a lack of belief to actually defeat them.

Perhaps the exception was Berdych who perhaps put up the best fight of the lot and sometimes the opposition is just too good.

For both the French Open and Wimbledon finals to be so one sided..... well... it does show how well respected both Nadal and Federer are - it's not as if the finalists were inexperienced either.

In terms of the 2017 French Open, Rafael Nadal was simply on another level from the rest of the field. He made the 2015 champion look like an amateur in the final. He will surely go down in the annals of tennis history of one of the greatest, if not THE greatest claycourter ever to have played  the sport.

It is mind boggling that Rafa achieved his record with hardly any close battles with his losses  coming in the 2009 and 2015 editions of the French Open. Of course, he had to withdraw from RG after the first round in 2016.

Roger has a very good Wimbledon record was pushed far more times, with exits during the final over the year.

So to sum up, I would say that Rafael Nadal is a natural claycourt talent, who was able to translate his game to other surfaces, whereas Roger's game essentially suited all surfaces, although his claycourt stats are the weakest amongst his performances on all surfaces.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:26 pm

Nadal should go down as the greatest ever clay player, no question!

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by reckoner on Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:29 pm

But the greatest of all time?

Here's Toni Nadal : "He is always there, never gives up. When he will call it a career, the greatest player in the tennis history won't be there anymore."

I wonder who he means...

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by lags72 on Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:58 pm

kemet wrote:


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.So to sum up, I would say that Rafael Nadal is a natural claycourt talent, who was able to translate his game to other surfaces, whereas Roger's game essentially suited all surfaces, although his claycourt stats are the weakest amongst his performances on all surfaces.

No disputing your core conclusions here kemet.

Rafa has been so spectacularly dominant & successful on clay that any achievements on the surface (and most notably at RG) by other currently-active players have tended to generate little more than a footnote.

RG clearly remains Federer's least successful Slam by some distance, with just the one title versus an incredible 10 for Rafa. However ..... when you look at Fed's overall performance there through the years, it's surprisingly respectable.  

Federer's tally of 65 career match wins at RG is obviously below Rafa's. But the gap between that and Rafa's total is perhaps less dramatic than one might initially assume : Rafa has 79.

By way of comparison it's interesting to then benchmark Rafa's weakest surface versus Fed's strongest : Rafa has 43 career match wins at Wimbledon versus Federer's 91. A much more dramatic gap.

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:19 pm

How can you compare like that, when Fed has been playing way longer than Rafa; moverover Rafa has his injuries and thus skipping some of the slams.

Fed had been playing at the FO since when? 1999! Rafa? 2005. Fed had skipped two FOs (2016-2017), and so he had played there for a good 17 years! Rafa has played there for 13 years but last year, he had to withdraw before R3 due to wrist injury.

Rafa started playing at Wimbledon in 2003, but he had to miss three Wimbledon (2004, 2009, 2016). The 2009 miss was the most painful because he was the defending champion. So, Rafa had only played 12 times at Wimbledon, compared to Fed's 19 times! By the time Rafa played for another four or five years at Wimbledon, who knows, he may get closer to 65 match wins there!

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by Guest on Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:38 pm

What does it mean to be a "natural clay court talent".  I really think the training of skill sets, technique, and tactics are being grossly undervalued here.  Stick a tennis racket in a childs hands and give him some tennis balls to play with does not a champ make by itself.  Surely there are natural talents in Asia - but where are they?  Surely there are natural talents in the favelas in Brazil - but where are they?


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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

Post by lags72 on Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:42 pm

@Blb - Oh sure .... I fully agree that we don't know how the various stats will look once the respective careers are done & dusted. And yes, Federer has of course been on the Tour for a good while longer than Rafa. But that has to be balanced by the fact that Federer is about to turn 36 - so the more 'youthful' Rafa, with far less mileage on the clock, should actually be less prone to repeated early exits at Wimbledon than the ageing Federer, as opposed to more so.

Then again, therein lies the whole issue with the age and injury factors. Once you bring them into play, there's the danger of making the same mistake that many others have made in the past : using them to negate comparisons that might be considered unfavourable ; but ignoring them where it suits !

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Re: Toni Nadal: Federer is a workshy fop

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