The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Page 7 of 7 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

View previous topic View next topic Go down

The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 10 Aug 2017, 11:44 am

First topic message reminder :

Following the Union Balldance of the last 12 months, another union has finally joined the party - SARU. The PRO12 league is gone with Martin Anayi's announcement of a global club championship involving conferences of teams from five unions with the potential for more to be included.

At first glance, it looks like a smart play - albeit somewhat fortuitous with SARU having to shed two teams from the Super Rugby competition. It brings together a lot more viewers that are attractive to media companies and business sponsors. Celtic Rugby Ltd still owns the competition with just its three founding shareholders - IRFU, SRU and WRU. No club or franchise owners involved. FIR failed to meet the required performance that would have made them shareholders at the beginning of July. And SARU weren't persuasive enough to get their seat at the table just yet. Rumours of a new company being set up failed to materialise. But they still signed up to a six-year agreement with £6m in funding each year.

It's not clear if this money is coming from SARU or directly from SuperSport, their broadcast partner. It is SARU who have signed the agreement to provide two teams so presumably the financial buck stops with them. It's more likely the £6m is a participation fee paid by SARU, similar to what FIR was charged when it joined in 2010. Media reports have said that the monies will be split equally amongst the 12 teams with travel and logistics costs for SA trips met centrally by Celtic Rugby Ltd since these will vary for clubs depending on whether they play one or both teams in SA.

Next on Anayi's agenda is the negotiation of a new media deal involving PPV and terrestrial TV, and online platforms. SuperSport may have already got their slice - all 20-22 home games involving Cheetahs and Kings plus some/all of the finals stages. Or perhaps not. Sky and possibly other PPV broadcasters such as Eir Sport may be willing to bid more to be the primary broadcaster for a higher profile, expanded Championship. But Anayi will want to keep a slice for terrestrial TV since they have a much better viewership reach. The current deal is for four years. Would a six-year deal be a better strategic move to guarantee increased revenues for a longer period? It would link in with the duration of the SARU agreement. And it would outlast the current participation agreement for the European Cup run by EPCR.

Further expansion is obviously the other key consideration with possibly other teams from SA, US and Europe coming on board. The danger is that Celtic Rugby goes too far and repeats the mistakes of Super Rugby. Better to build slowly to see if they will still come.

The coming season will be a fascinating one to see how the new structure and Championship beds in. Will attendances increase? Will there be more surprise results and potentially another new team to lift the cup next May?

Roll on 1 September.



Further info on PRO14 can be found here:
http://www.pro14rugby.org/2017/08/01/guinness-pro14-championship-qa/
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 5006
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 55
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down


Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 13 Sep 2017, 2:33 pm

marty2086 wrote:Who ever they give a contract to would be a full time professional

Yes I know, but they would still be crap. They would have to get all their one or two pros playing around the world, fill in the gaps with other players until they get enough home grown players to step up to the mark.

Now I am not saying they would not be good eventually, but we have been saying this about the Italians for years, and if their national side is anything to go by they would be rubbish.

marty2086 wrote:Signing players does not equate to structures

I have never suggested this, but they do need a better structure than the Italian one because that is not going so well for the Italians.

marty2086 wrote:Outside of the NFL there what 1 professional league in the world yet they aren't doing too bad

Rugby Union. OK

LordDowlais

Posts : 11154
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Wed 13 Sep 2017, 2:46 pm

The US have well established college system, which sustains professional leagues like the NFL hence its mention, along with the NBA and MLS.

And rugby is one of the fastest growing sports in the US with more and more colleges taking it up, I also seem to remember reading that some colleges were trying to get footballer players to switch codes because of the high attrition rate for them regarding making it to the NFL plus the injury rate.

marty2086

Posts : 7726
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 13 Sep 2017, 2:48 pm

marty2086 wrote:And rugby is one of the fastest growing sports in the US with more and more colleges taking it up, I also seem to remember reading that some colleges were trying to get footballer players to switch codes because of the high attrition rate for them regarding making it to the NFL plus the injury rate.

Except you missed out the bit where they tried pro rugby and it failed.

LordDowlais

Posts : 11154
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Wed 13 Sep 2017, 3:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:And rugby is one of the fastest growing sports in the US with more and more colleges taking it up, I also seem to remember reading that some colleges were trying to get footballer players to switch codes because of the high attrition rate for them regarding making it to the NFL plus the injury rate.

Except you missed out the bit where they tried pro rugby and it failed.

They didn't, a private entity did and they failed to pay the bills and it fell apart

marty2086

Posts : 7726
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 13 Sep 2017, 3:20 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:And rugby is one of the fastest growing sports in the US with more and more colleges taking it up, I also seem to remember reading that some colleges were trying to get footballer players to switch codes because of the high attrition rate for them regarding making it to the NFL plus the injury rate.

Except you missed out the bit where they tried pro rugby and it failed.

They didn't, a private entity did and they failed to pay the bills and it fell apart

So it failed then, yes ?

Look, I do not want to do this too and froing with you anymore, it is sapping me, but obviously there cannot be that much interest in the USA as there would already be a league and it would not have gone bust. With the amount of people in America, surely something could have been done to save it, if it was as popular as you are making out.

Besides, I do not know what this has to do with how rubbish the USA Eagles are, and how they would improve with the same players in the Pro14.

LordDowlais

Posts : 11154
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by Kingshu on Wed 13 Sep 2017, 5:00 pm

I don't know about a US team being crap, esp when we do not know how it will be set up,
there are some useful US players already at a decent level
Joe Taufete'e Hooker Worcester Warriors
Titi Lamositele PropEngland Saracens
Paddy Ryan Prop Newcastle Falcons
Nick Civetta Lock Newcast
Tony Lamborn Flanker Hawke's Bay
Cam Dolan Number 8 Cardiff Blues
David Tameilau Number 8 Narbonne
AJ MacGinty Fly-half Sale Sharks
Marcel Brache Centre Western Force
Takudzwa Ngwenya wing ca brive

Kingshu

Posts : 3412
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by Kingshu on Wed 13 Sep 2017, 8:10 pm

We also do not know will it be a US/CAD combined team with support from both Unions? Two academies supporting one team, maybe with some overseas players added to bring up depth (reduced over time). Maybe an agreement over 10/15 years, and will then it will be US only with the aim of CAD setting up a team of their own, with the academy in place and producing players already for 10 years.
There are too many unknowns to say they will struggle unless them recruit the All Black team. Untill more is known I will hold judgement. Even if its US only but with 15 NUSQ players reduced over time, then they will most likely be competitive, depending on the NUSQ.

The German team as well, will be interesting, I'm sure the Germany Union will be involved but to help set it up and running I am sure Hans-Peter Wild, will be involved. He was was instrumental in the formation of the Wild Rugby Academy, aimed at developing the sport of rugby union in Germany, financially supports Heidelberger RK, and chairman of Stade Français.

I do not expect him to be a sugar daddy, but I believe that he will work for the German union, to set up a Union owned team in Heidelberg, he's a German that has been pushing forward rugby in Germany and worked at the top of rugby also, I don't think there are any better for the job.
Heidelberg appears to be a good location, is one of the centres of Rugby union in Germany, four out of nine clubs in the Rugby-Bundesliga were from Heidelberg. Has no football team. Has a 5k stadium Fritz-Grunebaum-Sportpark, to start out in and the Wild Rugby Academy is based there.
I think that World rugby will also assist them, the same way as they are funding, Fijian Drua to play in the Australian National Rugby Championship.
I doubt it will be a German only team, but more likely the best European tier 2 players, or world tier 2 players. Imagine Georgian forwards with Fijian backs? With some Romanians and Germans that make the grade in as well? A tier 2 barbarians based in Heidelberg.

Kingshu

Posts : 3412
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by Griff on Wed 13 Sep 2017, 8:22 pm

Leinster's Isa Nacewa and Jamison Gibson-Park have been sent home from South Africa due to visa issues. Hmmm. Something teams with Kiwis (lots of us!) might need to take into account. Apparently there are new tighter visa rules for kiwis in SA recently, for some reason. Perhaps a Pro14 issue that needs to be ironed out?

Griff

Posts : 7164
Join date : 2011-06-03
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by profitius on Wed 13 Sep 2017, 8:48 pm

Big mistake from Leinsters part but I would imagine it was a bit of a scramble to get everything organised. The other teams will learn from their mistake.
avatar
profitius

Posts : 3830
Join date : 2012-01-25

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 14 Sep 2017, 2:01 pm

Griff wrote:Leinster's Isa Nacewa and Jamison Gibson-Park have been sent home from South Africa due to visa issues.

Tough on Gibson-Park but Nacewa shouldn't have been playing in this one anyway after his high tackle last weekend.

RugbyFan100

Posts : 337
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Thu 14 Sep 2017, 3:16 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Griff wrote:Leinster's Isa Nacewa and Jamison Gibson-Park have been sent home from South Africa due to visa issues.

Tough on Gibson-Park but Nacewa shouldn't have been playing in this one anyway after his high tackle last weekend.

This rubbish again

marty2086

Posts : 7726
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Thu 14 Sep 2017, 3:19 pm

profitius wrote:Big mistake from Leinsters part but I would imagine it was a bit of a scramble to get everything organised. The other teams will learn from their mistake.

Guy Easterbys statement on the matter

As of 16 January 2017 a visa is required for New Zealand nationals entering South Africa.

Unfortunately this visa was not applied for by Leinster Rugby on behalf of Jamison Gibson-Park and Isa Nacewa in advance of the squad leaving Dublin Airport on Tuesday afternoon. It was only brought to our attention upon landing into Johannesburg on Wednesday morning that this was now a requirement.

This was clearly an administrative oversight on our part and a valuable lesson has been learned.

Nick McCarthy will arrive in later today and for the moment no other player will be called up to the squad.

The squad is looking forward to the considerable challenge that awaits them against the Southern Kings.


marty2086

Posts : 7726
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Thu 14 Sep 2017, 5:23 pm

marty2086 wrote:
profitius wrote:Big mistake from Leinsters part but I would imagine it was a bit of a scramble to get everything organised. The other teams will learn from their mistake.

Guy Easterbys statement on the matter

As of 16 January 2017 a visa is required for New Zealand nationals entering South Africa.

Unfortunately this visa was not applied for by Leinster Rugby on behalf of Jamison Gibson-Park and Isa Nacewa in advance of the squad leaving Dublin Airport on Tuesday afternoon. It was only brought to our attention upon landing into Johannesburg on Wednesday morning that this was now a requirement.

This was clearly an administrative oversight on our part and a valuable lesson has been learned.

Nick McCarthy will arrive in later today and for the moment no other player will be called up to the squad.

The squad is looking forward to the considerable challenge that awaits them against the Southern Kings.


Seems like a stupid mistake, but the pro12 only became a pro14 just over a month ago and the fixtures were a week or two later than that. Even if the visa was applied for immediately at that time, government administration speeds could easily have meant approval not coming through in time for these early fixtures. If I was any other club I'd be rechecking the passports all my players travel under and getting the relevant applications submitted asap to cover any trips.

thebandwagonsociety

Posts : 2243
Join date : 2011-06-02

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by wolfball on Thu 14 Sep 2017, 9:36 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:And rugby is one of the fastest growing sports in the US with more and more colleges taking it up, I also seem to remember reading that some colleges were trying to get footballer players to switch codes because of the high attrition rate for them regarding making it to the NFL plus the injury rate.

Except you missed out the bit where they tried pro rugby and it failed.

They didn't, a private entity did and they failed to pay the bills and it fell apart

So it failed then, yes ?

Look, I do not want to do this too and froing with you anymore, it is sapping me, but obviously there cannot be that much interest in the USA as there would already be a league and it would not have gone bust. With the amount of people in America, surely something could have been done to save it, if it was as popular as you are making out.

Besides, I do not know what this has to do with how rubbish the USA Eagles are, and how they would improve with the same players in the Pro14.

Agree nearly completely with LD. I played rugby in NYC for a couple of years, have spent time all across North America (in Vancouver as we speak) and there is a tiny chance in my view that a decent US team develops without a lot of external, non-US money poured into it. Check out the History of the MLS for an example of how long it took for some success with a far more popular sport than rugby.

But I get the appeal, I really do - Millions of potential Irish, English etc descended viewers, Billions in Sports Sponsorship and TV deals, if rugby gets 1% of that we are all loaded!

Its unlikely.

Most US TV contracts are national or super-regional and a tiny 1-2 team league in NYC/Boston is not going to interest many broadcasters, especially as most rugby fans I know in the US only follow international rugby plus US sports. The time differences and the fact there is no one to talk to about it means that finding fellow PRO14 lovers is super difficult unless its Munster-Leinster match.

A US based team would need to be winning the league for YEARS before any mainstream american press will care about it, and how likely is a US team getting that good anytime soon? I think we should fully focus on SA as our expansion partner. I do not get the obsession with adding Georgia or Germany, they will be worse than the italians, and I do not see why PRO14 teams should sacrifice the quality of their league for little to no money.

wolfball

Posts : 930
Join date : 2011-08-18
Age : 33

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Thu 14 Sep 2017, 10:45 pm

Sorry but you are comparing setting up a a full league and the structures that go with it to setting up one team, maybe two at most?

MLS struggled at the start and still does because of a lack of quality, the best players are playing with players who are well below their level. Focusing all the resources into one entity pools the quality, lets not forget there is also a country up north that is also trying to develop their players. Im sure they'd love to play professionally at a high level closer to home.

This weekend Saracens play Newcastle in Philadelphia and the AP is shown on NBC Sports, so there is an appetite for the game in the US.

marty2086

Posts : 7726
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by wolfball on Thu 14 Sep 2017, 11:19 pm

marty2086 wrote:Sorry but you are comparing setting up a a full league and the structures that go with it to setting up one team, maybe two at most?

MLS struggled at the start and still does because of a lack of quality, the best players are playing with players who are well below their level. Focusing all the resources into one entity pools the quality, lets not forget there is also a country up north that is also trying to develop their players. Im sure they'd love to play professionally at a high level closer to home.

Soccer in the US = 16M players
Rugby in the US = 115,000 players

That is a huge differential and it took decades to get a sustainable league off the ground. Sure 1-2 teams is a lot less of an issue, but who is going to pay for them? And even if US rugby scrapes enough money together for a team, how good will they be even with every good north american player crammed into them? 11th or 12th in the PRO14?

Americans are obsessed with winning. Having the 3rd or 4th worse team in a league from across the Atlantic will not catch on in the US when you are competing with every other US sport and the blanket coverage they get.

This weekend Saracens play Newcastle in Philadelphia and the AP is shown on NBC Sports, so there is an appetite for the game in the US.
Yep, 18,500 capacity sell out in a heavily promoted one-off game def shows the appetite... NBC showing AP games IS a good start, but I want to see successful viewing figures before I start to think things are changing.

Note, I was at the NZ match in Chicago and the stadium was rammed, but literally 2 blocks from the stadium, americans had no idea there was a rugby game on.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE rugby to be successful in the US. I would actually be able to see some matches. Connacht playing a NY Rugby team would blow my mind. But I know what the US rugby structures look like, I have played in them, I have met a lot of US rugby administrators over the years and they make the 1995 IRFU look like geniuses. If US rugby brings actual money, broadcast or otherwise, and a plan to the table for developing a team then we should consider them joining the PRO14, but until that happens we are kidding ourselves that they will be any better then a worse playing and supported Zebre.




wolfball

Posts : 930
Join date : 2011-08-18
Age : 33

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 11:32 am

Interesting article here, subscription needed:


Dire results, visa issues and the Currie Cup crossover - why Pro14 alarm bells are already ringing


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/09/14/dire-results-visa-issues-currie-cup-crossover-pro14-alarm/

RugbyFan100

Posts : 337
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by VinceWLB on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 11:35 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:Interesting article here, subscription needed:


Dire results, visa issues and the Currie Cup crossover - why Pro14 alarm bells are already ringing


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/09/14/dire-results-visa-issues-currie-cup-crossover-pro14-alarm/

As if we are going to subscribe for something that has clearly an agenda.

VinceWLB

Posts : 3522
Join date : 2012-10-14

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 11:37 am

VinceWLB wrote:

As if we are going to subscribe for something that has clearly an agenda.

What agenda has the Telegraph newspaper got?

RugbyFan100

Posts : 337
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 11:41 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:

As if we are going to subscribe for something that has clearly an agenda.

What agenda has the Telegraph newspaper got?

Well they are using an administrative error by Leinster as a fault of the structures, it's hardly logical

marty2086

Posts : 7726
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 11:48 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:

As if we are going to subscribe for something that has clearly an agenda.

What agenda has the Telegraph newspaper got?

Well they are using an administrative error by Leinster as a fault of the structures, it's hardly logical

What agenda has the Telegraph newspaper got?

RugbyFan100

Posts : 337
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 11:54 am

wolfball wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Sorry but you are comparing setting up a a full league and the structures that go with it to setting up one team, maybe two at most?

MLS struggled at the start and still does because of a lack of quality, the best players are playing with players who are well below their level. Focusing all the resources into one entity pools the quality, lets not forget there is also a country up north that is also trying to develop their players. Im sure they'd love to play professionally at a high level closer to home.

Soccer in the US = 16M players
Rugby in the US = 115,000 players

That is a huge differential and it took decades to get a sustainable league off the ground. Sure 1-2 teams is a lot less of an issue, but who is going to pay for them? And even if US rugby scrapes enough money together for a team, how good will they be even with every good north american player crammed into them? 11th or 12th in the PRO14?

Americans are obsessed with winning. Having the 3rd or 4th worse team in a league from across the Atlantic will not catch on in the US when you are competing with every other US sport and the blanket coverage they get.

This weekend Saracens play Newcastle in Philadelphia and the AP is shown on NBC Sports, so there is an appetite for the game in the US.
Yep, 18,500 capacity sell out in a heavily promoted one-off game def shows the appetite...  NBC showing AP games IS a good start, but I want to see successful viewing figures before I start to think things are changing.

Note, I was at the NZ match in Chicago and the stadium was rammed, but literally 2 blocks from the stadium, americans had no idea there was a rugby game on.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE rugby to be successful in the US. I would actually be able to see some matches. Connacht playing a NY Rugby team would blow my mind. But I know what the US rugby structures look like, I have played in them, I have met a lot of US rugby administrators over the years and they make the 1995 IRFU look like geniuses. If US rugby brings actual money, broadcast or otherwise, and a plan to the table for developing a team then we should consider them joining the PRO14, but until that happens we are kidding ourselves that they will be any better then a worse playing and supported Zebre.


You do realise there are less than 80k registered players in Italy? 153k in Ireland?

You supplement the Americans with some Canadians, some Kiwis, Aussies, Pacific Islanders etc you lay the foundations of a decent team.

It didn't take decades to get the league of the ground, your own linked post says its anywhere between 3-8 years to get MLS going.

But the Americans have an owner for the DC franchise plus the backing of the Union so theres plenty to sustain it at least in the short term.

10 home games is not a huge leap for them to fill a stadium for if there is a fan base close by

marty2086

Posts : 7726
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 11:54 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:

As if we are going to subscribe for something that has clearly an agenda.

What agenda has the Telegraph newspaper got?

Well they are using an administrative error by Leinster as a fault of the structures, it's hardly logical

What agenda has the Telegraph newspaper got?

I never said they had one though they do regularly like to sh!t on the Pro12/14

marty2086

Posts : 7726
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 12:18 pm

marty2086 wrote:You supplement the Americans with some Canadians, some Kiwis, Aussies, Pacific Islanders etc you lay the foundations of a decent team.

Canada are worse than they USA, why would they want to use their players ? Anyway why don't we just as the Baaba's to play in the Pro14 and be done with it.

All this trying to get the USA on board smacks of desperation. If I was in charge I would be doing all I could to get South Africa to jump ship from SANZAR and try and get into the Pro14 and 6N.

LordDowlais

Posts : 11154
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 12:25 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You supplement the Americans with some Canadians, some Kiwis, Aussies, Pacific Islanders etc you lay the foundations of a decent team.

Canada are worse than they USA, why would they want to use their players ? Anyway why don't we just as the Baaba's to play in the Pro14 and be done with it.

All this trying to get the USA on board smacks of desperation. If I was in charge I would be doing all I could to get South Africa to jump ship from SANZAR and try and get into the Pro14 and 6N.

Well you would

marty2086

Posts : 7726
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 12:41 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You supplement the Americans with some Canadians, some Kiwis, Aussies, Pacific Islanders etc you lay the foundations of a decent team.

Canada are worse than they USA, why would they want to use their players ? Anyway why don't we just as the Baaba's to play in the Pro14 and be done with it.

All this trying to get the USA on board smacks of desperation. If I was in charge I would be doing all I could to get South Africa to jump ship from SANZAR and try and get into the Pro14 and 6N.

Well you would

They are a rugby country.

USA are not interested in a team sport unless they have the monopoly over it, only play it in their country, and call the competition a World series, with all advertising all over it.

LordDowlais

Posts : 11154
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by profitius on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 12:43 pm

People should keep in mind that any expansion is not supposed to be a short term solution but a long term solution. The new teams will need time to grow. Connacht and Glasgow were usually the bottom 2 in the first few years of the celtic league and have since won the league.
avatar
profitius

Posts : 3830
Join date : 2012-01-25

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 12:45 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You supplement the Americans with some Canadians, some Kiwis, Aussies, Pacific Islanders etc you lay the foundations of a decent team.

Canada are worse than they USA, why would they want to use their players ? Anyway why don't we just as the Baaba's to play in the Pro14 and be done with it.

All this trying to get the USA on board smacks of desperation. If I was in charge I would be doing all I could to get South Africa to jump ship from SANZAR and try and get into the Pro14 and 6N.

Well you would

They are a rugby country.

USA are not interested in a team sport unless they have the monopoly over it, only play it in their country, and call the competition a World series, with all advertising all over it.

Remind me again who sponsors the World Series and what part of the US the Blue Jays play in

marty2086

Posts : 7726
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 12:51 pm

profitius wrote:People should keep in mind that any expansion is not supposed to be a short term solution but a long term solution. The new teams will need time to grow. Connacht and Glasgow were usually the bottom 2 in the first few years of the celtic league and have since won the league.

This is true.

But we have also been saying this about the Italians since they have joined, very rarely have they been competitive. They do throw up the odd result here and then, but never have they strung a run together, or ever looked like breaking the habbit.

LordDowlais

Posts : 11154
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by wolfball on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 5:22 pm

marty2086 wrote:
wolfball wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Sorry but you are comparing setting up a a full league and the structures that go with it to setting up one team, maybe two at most?

MLS struggled at the start and still does because of a lack of quality, the best players are playing with players who are well below their level. Focusing all the resources into one entity pools the quality, lets not forget there is also a country up north that is also trying to develop their players. Im sure they'd love to play professionally at a high level closer to home.

Soccer in the US = 16M players
Rugby in the US = 115,000 players

That is a huge differential and it took decades to get a sustainable league off the ground. Sure 1-2 teams is a lot less of an issue, but who is going to pay for them? And even if US rugby scrapes enough money together for a team, how good will they be even with every good north american player crammed into them? 11th or 12th in the PRO14?

Americans are obsessed with winning. Having the 3rd or 4th worse team in a league from across the Atlantic will not catch on in the US when you are competing with every other US sport and the blanket coverage they get.

This weekend Saracens play Newcastle in Philadelphia and the AP is shown on NBC Sports, so there is an appetite for the game in the US.
Yep, 18,500 capacity sell out in a heavily promoted one-off game def shows the appetite...  NBC showing AP games IS a good start, but I want to see successful viewing figures before I start to think things are changing.

Note, I was at the NZ match in Chicago and the stadium was rammed, but literally 2 blocks from the stadium, americans had no idea there was a rugby game on.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE rugby to be successful in the US. I would actually be able to see some matches. Connacht playing a NY Rugby team would blow my mind. But I know what the US rugby structures look like, I have played in them, I have met a lot of US rugby administrators over the years and they make the 1995 IRFU look like geniuses. If US rugby brings actual money, broadcast or otherwise, and a plan to the table for developing a team then we should consider them joining the PRO14, but until that happens we are kidding ourselves that they will be any better then a worse playing and supported Zebre.


You do realise there are less than 80k registered players in Italy? 153k in Ireland?

You supplement the Americans with some Canadians, some Kiwis, Aussies, Pacific Islanders etc you lay the foundations of a decent team.

It didn't take decades to get the league of the ground, your own linked post says its anywhere between 3-8 years to get MLS going.

But the Americans have an owner for the DC franchise plus the backing of the Union so theres plenty to sustain it at least in the short term.

10 home games is not a huge leap for them to fill a stadium for if there is a fan base close by

If a rich DC fellah wants to try his arm at starting a rugby team, I have no objection, I am just saying that knowing US rugby like I do I think it has huge odds against it and SA is the place our focus should be. Adding journeyman SH players hasn't made the Italians competitive, why would it make a US team? I would be delighted to be proved wrong, but this close by fan base I just do not see it in as NFL-mad a town as DC is. RE 3-8 years to establish MLS, they also had a 16 year pro league in the NASL to base the MSL on and it still took from the early 90s to 2002 for the MLS to stabilise and become profitable. And all that is with the most popular global sport with literally millions of US players.

wolfball

Posts : 930
Join date : 2011-08-18
Age : 33

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by wolfball on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 5:26 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You supplement the Americans with some Canadians, some Kiwis, Aussies, Pacific Islanders etc you lay the foundations of a decent team.

Canada are worse than they USA, why would they want to use their players ? Anyway why don't we just as the Baaba's to play in the Pro14 and be done with it.

All this trying to get the USA on board smacks of desperation. If I was in charge I would be doing all I could to get South Africa to jump ship from SANZAR and try and get into the Pro14 and 6N.

Well you would

They are a rugby country.

USA are not interested in a team sport unless they have the monopoly over it, only play it in their country, and call the competition a World series, with all advertising all over it.

Remind me again who sponsors the World Series and what part of the US the Blue Jays play in

The fact that there are Canadian franchises in US sports leagues which the US teams consistently dominate as well as the general american view that canada is little more than a northern US province, does not exactly support the argument that a tiny sport like rugby played and dominated in countries many time zones away from the US will take off there.

wolfball

Posts : 930
Join date : 2011-08-18
Age : 33

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais Yesterday at 1:00 pm

Looks like Brian Moore has his opinions of the South Africans in the Pro14. Laugh

And so has Reggie Corrigan.

Reggie Corrigan wrote:Both southern hemisphere teams have suffered heavy defeats, with Corrigan stating: "The last thing the Pro14 needs is two more whipping boys.

"The only reason the two SA teams are in the Pro14 is panic... it was all done last minute. SA rugby is in crisis mode right now."

The podcast quite good if you have time to listen to it:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/09/18/brian-moores-full-contact-episode-26-reason-two-south-african/

LordDowlais

Posts : 11154
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 Yesterday at 1:55 pm

wolfball wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You supplement the Americans with some Canadians, some Kiwis, Aussies, Pacific Islanders etc you lay the foundations of a decent team.

Canada are worse than they USA, why would they want to use their players ? Anyway why don't we just as the Baaba's to play in the Pro14 and be done with it.

All this trying to get the USA on board smacks of desperation. If I was in charge I would be doing all I could to get South Africa to jump ship from SANZAR and try and get into the Pro14 and 6N.

Well you would

They are a rugby country.

USA are not interested in a team sport unless they have the monopoly over it, only play it in their country, and call the competition a World series, with all advertising all over it.

Remind me again who sponsors the World Series and what part of the US the Blue Jays play in

The fact that there are Canadian franchises in US sports leagues which the US teams consistently dominate as well as the general american view that canada is little more than a northern US province, does not exactly support the argument that a tiny sport like rugby played and dominated in countries many time zones away from the US will take off there.

There is one Canadian franchise in MLB, in their 40 year history they have won 2 World Series and there have been nearly 20 other teams to win the Championship. In a competition with 30 teams and 29 are American of course they will dominate. They do however hold their own and it completely contradicts what LD said still

Rugby though is one of the fastest growing sports and I believe its the fastest growing team sport in the US

marty2086

Posts : 7726
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais Yesterday at 1:59 pm

marty2086 wrote:Rugby though is one of the fastest growing sports and I believe its the fastest growing team sport in the US

7's maybe, because of the Olympics, but 15 a side, I don't think so, I would put soccerball ahead of it.

LordDowlais

Posts : 11154
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 Yesterday at 2:12 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Rugby though is one of the fastest growing sports and I believe its the fastest growing team sport in the US

7's maybe, because of the Olympics, but 15 a side, I don't think so, I would put soccerball ahead of it.

Well some of us work of facts rather than being completely clueless and making stuff

Both codes of the game are growing, 15s and 7s are being used to grow the game and the full code is being included as part of more college athletic programs with different codes being played at different times of the year.

Some of the top colleges set up the Varsity cup a few years back which is shown on NBC Sport

marty2086

Posts : 7726
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 7 of 7 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum