The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

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The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 10 Aug 2017, 11:44 am

First topic message reminder :

Following the Union Balldance of the last 12 months, another union has finally joined the party - SARU. The PRO12 league is gone with Martin Anayi's announcement of a global club championship involving conferences of teams from five unions with the potential for more to be included.

At first glance, it looks like a smart play - albeit somewhat fortuitous with SARU having to shed two teams from the Super Rugby competition. It brings together a lot more viewers that are attractive to media companies and business sponsors. Celtic Rugby Ltd still owns the competition with just its three founding shareholders - IRFU, SRU and WRU. No club or franchise owners involved. FIR failed to meet the required performance that would have made them shareholders at the beginning of July. And SARU weren't persuasive enough to get their seat at the table just yet. Rumours of a new company being set up failed to materialise. But they still signed up to a six-year agreement with £6m in funding each year.

It's not clear if this money is coming from SARU or directly from SuperSport, their broadcast partner. It is SARU who have signed the agreement to provide two teams so presumably the financial buck stops with them. It's more likely the £6m is a participation fee paid by SARU, similar to what FIR was charged when it joined in 2010. Media reports have said that the monies will be split equally amongst the 12 teams with travel and logistics costs for SA trips met centrally by Celtic Rugby Ltd since these will vary for clubs depending on whether they play one or both teams in SA.

Next on Anayi's agenda is the negotiation of a new media deal involving PPV and terrestrial TV, and online platforms. SuperSport may have already got their slice - all 20-22 home games involving Cheetahs and Kings plus some/all of the finals stages. Or perhaps not. Sky and possibly other PPV broadcasters such as Eir Sport may be willing to bid more to be the primary broadcaster for a higher profile, expanded Championship. But Anayi will want to keep a slice for terrestrial TV since they have a much better viewership reach. The current deal is for four years. Would a six-year deal be a better strategic move to guarantee increased revenues for a longer period? It would link in with the duration of the SARU agreement. And it would outlast the current participation agreement for the European Cup run by EPCR.

Further expansion is obviously the other key consideration with possibly other teams from SA, US and Europe coming on board. The danger is that Celtic Rugby goes too far and repeats the mistakes of Super Rugby. Better to build slowly to see if they will still come.

The coming season will be a fascinating one to see how the new structure and Championship beds in. Will attendances increase? Will there be more surprise results and potentially another new team to lift the cup next May?

Roll on 1 September.



Further info on PRO14 can be found here:
http://www.pro14rugby.org/2017/08/01/guinness-pro14-championship-qa/
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu 21 Sep 2017, 4:21 pm

Twenty five years ago the Welsh league was the equal if not better than anything in England. The clubs eventually got ditched because of the euro competition - it was madness then and hasn't got any better over the years.

Those senior clubs would now probably be in a two league Anglo/Welsh competition by now.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 21 Sep 2017, 4:24 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:Twenty five years ago the Welsh league was the equal if not better than anything in England. The clubs eventually got ditched because of the euro competition - it was madness then and hasn't got any better over the years.

Those senior clubs would now probably be in a two league Anglo/Welsh competition by now.


Ahhh, the good ol days. Sad Crying or Very sad

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by Kingshu on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 11:13 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:Twenty five years ago the Welsh league was the equal if not better than anything in England. The clubs eventually got ditched because of the euro competition - it was madness then and hasn't got any better over the years.

Those senior clubs would now probably be in a two league Anglo/Welsh competition by now.


Ahhh, the good ol days. Sad Crying or Very sad

I think thats a bit rose tinted.

The Welsh league was fully professional, and was the basis for the Pro 14.
There was the 1998–99 rebel season , but the aim of that was to have a British league, containing the top division English clubs, the two Scottish regional sides (Edinburgh and Glasgow) and four Welsh clubs
(meaning there would have been as many top flight teams in wales as it currently has, the other clubs would still have been in a welsh prem, just like they are now)
In the 1999–2000 season it invited Edinburgh and Glasgow to join creating the Welsh–Scottish League.
2001–02 and in 2002–03 all nine Welsh Premier Division teams were involved with the Scottish and Irish sides.
This is where I think things get confused, by 03/04 Welsh Regional Rugby's financial constraints that left Wales with only five fully professional clubs, so the 5 regional teams were created

So without rose tinted specs, it would have been 4 teams, not lots, in the Anglo/Welsh competition. You may argue that the teams would have been better off in a Anglo/Welsh competition, but I would say Dragons would certainly be in the championship and most likely Cardiff as well, meaning Wales would have only 2 top tier professional teams, compared to the 4 they have now.
If you think the rest may have joined later remember by 02/03 there were only five fully professional clubs.
If the 4 teams left the Welsh Prem would be worse than it is now, as tier would be no Cardiff, Swansea, and 2 other big teams playing in it.
The regions were not fully created because of euro competition, it was the finance in Wales meaning that only 5 teams could be fully professional as well.

You may think that there would have been a lovely two league Anglo/Welsh competition with Welsh teams thriving, I think it more likely that Wales would have only have two top flight professional teams, and a much worse/reduced Welsh Premiership.

When all is say and done, Welsh Rugby is better of in the Pro 14 with 4 professional clubs, and all teams still in the Welsh Prem.
Of course these are all what if's but I think it more likely that Wales would only have had two top tier teams in a Anglo-Welsh league, than the half dozen thriving teams, that some think there would be if it all came about.


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 11:21 am

Kingshu wrote:When all is say and done, Welsh Rugby is better of in the Pro 14 with 4 professional clubs, and all teams still in the Welsh Prem.
Of course these are all what if's but I think it more likely that Wales would only have had two top tier teams in a Anglo-Welsh league, than the half dozen thriving teams, that some think there would be if it all came about.

chin hhhmmmmm, I dunno.

Back in the late 90's early 00's Wales had some very competitive club sides. Newport, Swansea, Cardiff, LLanelli, Neath, Pontypridd and perhaps Bridgend and Ebbw Vale would have all been there or there about's.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 11:25 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Kingshu wrote:When all is say and done, Welsh Rugby is better of in the Pro 14 with 4 professional clubs, and all teams still in the Welsh Prem.
Of course these are all what if's but I think it more likely that Wales would only have had two top tier teams in a Anglo-Welsh league, than the half dozen thriving teams, that some think there would be if it all came about.

chin  hhhmmmmm, I dunno.

Back in the late 90's early 00's Wales had some very competitive club sides. Newport, Swansea, Cardiff, LLanelli, Neath, Pontypridd and perhaps Bridgend and Ebbw Vale would have all been there or there about's.

You mean except for the fact that the WRU couldn't afford that many teams and the English didn't want that many?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by rodders on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 11:38 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Kingshu wrote:When all is say and done, Welsh Rugby is better of in the Pro 14 with 4 professional clubs, and all teams still in the Welsh Prem.
Of course these are all what if's but I think it more likely that Wales would only have had two top tier teams in a Anglo-Welsh league, than the half dozen thriving teams, that some think there would be if it all came about.

chin  hhhmmmmm, I dunno.

Back in the late 90's early 00's Wales had some very competitive club sides. Newport, Swansea, Cardiff, LLanelli, Neath, Pontypridd and perhaps Bridgend and Ebbw Vale would have all been there or there about's.

Except they were all broke apart from Neath and Cardiff, so they were amalgamated to help survive.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 12:02 pm

rodders wrote:Except they were all broke apart from Neath and Cardiff, so they were amalgamated to help survive.

Yes. But what has that got to do with them not being competitive with the English ? At that time, we had teams in Wales that were more than a match for their English counterparts. Also, they were not ALL broke apart from Neath and Cardiff.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 12:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
rodders wrote:Except they were all broke apart from Neath and Cardiff, so they were amalgamated to help survive.

Yes. But what has that got to do with them not being competitive with the English ? At that time, we had teams in Wales that were more than a match for their English counterparts. Also, they were not ALL broke apart from Neath and Cardiff.

Maybe something to do with the fact that if you can't pay the bills you won't be around to compete

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 12:15 pm

marty2086 wrote:Maybe something to do with the fact that if you can't pay the bills you won't be around to compete

marty, I know the history of Welsh rugby thanks. Anyway what has any of this got to do with anything ?

You were waffling on about how great rugby is in the US, now that you have been put to bed on that, you have now decided to have a go at this.

Wales had a fully pro league before regionalism and the Celtic league, we had clubs that were not only a match for the English, but for the French Scottish and Irish as well. Yes we have moved on out of necessity, as have the Irish and the Scots, but it was not because of all bar two Welsh clubs were going broke. There were a number of factors why we needed to move forward. Money just being one point.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 12:25 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Maybe something to do with the fact that if you can't pay the bills you won't be around to compete

marty, I know the history of Welsh rugby thanks. Anyway what has any of this got to do with anything ?

You were waffling on about how great rugby is in the US, now that you have been put to bed on that, you have now decided to have a go at this.

Wales had a fully pro league before regionalism and the Celtic league, we had clubs that were not only a match for the English, but for the French Scottish and Irish as well. Yes we have moved on out of necessity, as have the Irish and the Scots, but it was not because of all bar two Welsh clubs were going broke. There were a number of factors why we needed to move forward. Money just being one point.

Put to bed? Laugh

You mean after you claiming football was a faster growing sport in the US and being proven wrong? Or after you saying the US couldn't compete despite not having a clue what kind of structures they would have? Or showing that the US have similar player numbers to Ireland who have 4 competitive teams never mind the one or two the US would be putting out? I was really put to bed there Rolling Eyes

Now on to Wales, I'll try to break it down for. How competitive were London Welsh in the Championship last season? They had a team to compete but didn't see out the season. No point having the players if you can't afford them, hence the problem with your argument but Im sure you'll put me to bed now.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 12:33 pm

marty2086 wrote:Put to bed? Laugh

You mean after you claiming football was a faster growing sport in the US and being proven wrong? Or after you saying the US couldn't compete despite not having a clue what kind of structures they would have? Or showing that the US have similar player numbers to Ireland who have 4 competitive teams never mind the one or two the US would be putting out? I was really put to bed there Rolling Eyes

Now on to Wales, I'll try to break it down for. How competitive were London Welsh in the Championship last season? They had a team to compete but didn't see out the season. No point having the players if you can't afford them, hence the problem with your argument but Im sure you'll put me to bed now.

marty, you are very tiresome, very sapping, and very annoying on here.

What are you even arguing with me about now ?

You asked me if Wales had a fully professional league before what we have now. I answered that we did, Recwatcher, a fan from England who supports English rugby made this statement.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Twenty five years ago the Welsh league was the equal if not better than anything in England. The clubs eventually got ditched because of the euro competition - it was madness then and hasn't got any better over the years.

Those senior clubs would now probably be in a two league Anglo/Welsh competition by now.

I agreed with him and harked back to the good old days. then you and your Irish friends decided to give me a lesson in Welsh rugby history.

FFS.

The temerity of some of the members on here, who think they are the font of all rugby knowledge is beggars belief.

Only on V2. picard

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 12:36 pm

From the man who said he put me to bed after being repeatedly proven wrong it' quite ironic

Because someone said something you agree with doesn't make it factual you do know that? It also seems your grasp of the history isn't the best if you agree with Recs 'statement'

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 12:47 pm

marty, you claimed that rugby was one of the fastest growing sports in the US, you then skewed your facts to prove yourself right.

When you actually delve into it, rugby is probably about the 6th fastest growing sports in the US, so as I said, yes you are right, it is ONE of the fastest growing sports in the US, but it is nowhere near where it needs to be. I then countered and asked you to consider, that if rugby is so big in the USA, then where is their pro league, why only one team to be put into the Pro14, none of these have been answered.

Now, you are trying to tell me how it was during the 90's in Welsh rugby when at the time you must have been what ? 10 years old ? I was there, I was supporting and watching, during the late 90's I was a season ticket holder at Pontypridd. I remember epic European games against the Leicesters and Wasps, Toulose, Bath's of this world.

I also remember the league games, where our teams would have to go and play the likes of Dunvant and Treorchy and put cricket scores on them after watching very high standard games between the better teams, this is why we needed change, along with being more professional and needing more money.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by Kingshu on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 1:27 pm

LordDowlais wrote:marty, you claimed that rugby was one of the fastest growing sports in the US, you then skewed your facts to prove yourself right.

When you actually delve into it, rugby is probably about the 6th fastest growing sports in the US, so as I said, yes you are right, it is ONE of the fastest growing sports in the US, but it is nowhere near where it needs to be. I then countered and asked you to consider, that if rugby is so big in the USA, then where is their pro league, why only one team to be put into the Pro14, none of these have been answered.

Now, you are trying to tell me how it was during the 90's in Welsh rugby when at the time you must have been what ? 10 years old ? I was there, I was supporting and watching, during the late 90's I was a season ticket holder at Pontypridd. I remember epic European games against the Leicesters and Wasps, Toulose, Bath's of this world.

I also remember the league games, where our teams would have to go and play the likes of Dunvant and Treorchy and put cricket scores on them after watching very high standard games between the better teams, this is why we needed change, along with being more professional and needing more money.

I don't know why a Pro league is so important, Argentina are and were a good side with no domestic pro league, and have only recently added a Pro team.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 1:32 pm

LordDowlais wrote:marty, you claimed that rugby was one of the fastest growing sports in the US, you then skewed your facts to prove yourself right.

When you actually delve into it, rugby is probably about the 6th fastest growing sports in the US, so as I said, yes you are right, it is ONE of the fastest growing sports in the US, but it is nowhere near where it needs to be. I then countered and asked you to consider, that if rugby is so big in the USA, then where is their pro league, why only one team to be put into the Pro14, none of these have been answered.

Now, you are trying to tell me how it was during the 90's in Welsh rugby when at the time you must have been what ? 10 years old ? I was there, I was supporting and watching, during the late 90's I was a season ticket holder at Pontypridd. I remember epic European games against the Leicesters and Wasps, Toulose, Bath's of this world.

I also remember the league games, where our teams would have to go and play the likes of Dunvant and Treorchy and put cricket scores on them after watching very high standard games between the better teams, this is why we needed change, along with being more professional and needing more money.

Not sure what facts I skewed exactly but nice of you to tell me I did it to prove I was right then turn round and say I was indeed right

Not only was the pro league question answered a number of times, you know why there isn't a league

As for the only no one team, no one knows if there will be one or two. The answers the same as to why there are 4 in Ireland, 4 in Wales, 2 in Scotland and 2 in Italy. It's called sustainability plus they need to walk before they can run

As for the whole what you know about Welsh rugby because you were there, any copper will tell you eye witnesses are the least reliable. Then again there is this

Graham Henry wrote:It was right to reject this paltry offer. What was proposed wasn't British, just a few Welsh clubs in a predominantly English league which would have been no good to anyone

So much for all those Welsh teams being competitive in an Anglo Welsh league when half them weren't welcome

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 1:37 pm

Kingshu wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:marty, you claimed that rugby was one of the fastest growing sports in the US, you then skewed your facts to prove yourself right.

When you actually delve into it, rugby is probably about the 6th fastest growing sports in the US, so as I said, yes you are right, it is ONE of the fastest growing sports in the US, but it is nowhere near where it needs to be. I then countered and asked you to consider, that if rugby is so big in the USA, then where is their pro league, why only one team to be put into the Pro14, none of these have been answered.

Now, you are trying to tell me how it was during the 90's in Welsh rugby when at the time you must have been what ? 10 years old ? I was there, I was supporting and watching, during the late 90's I was a season ticket holder at Pontypridd. I remember epic European games against the Leicesters and Wasps, Toulose, Bath's of this world.

I also remember the league games, where our teams would have to go and play the likes of Dunvant and Treorchy and put cricket scores on them after watching very high standard games between the better teams, this is why we needed change, along with being more professional and needing more money.

I don't know why a Pro league is so important, Argentina are and were a good side with no domestic pro league, and have only recently added a Pro team.

Because in LDs head not being able to sustain a league of 10/12 teams means you obviously cant sustain one team.

This is the guy who argued because of the Eagles ranking it obviously means they cant compete in the Pro14 because Ireland are 4th in the world and the Provinces have Irish test players in them.

Don't forget that US sports are solely American and don't have teams from outside America and everything is sponsored isn't that right LD? By the way since we are chasing up unanswered questions can you tell me who sponsors the World Series and where the Blue Jays play?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 2:11 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:Twenty five years ago the Welsh league was the equal if not better than anything in England. The clubs eventually got ditched because of the euro competition - it was madness then and hasn't got any better over the years.

Those senior clubs would now probably be in a two league Anglo/Welsh competition by now.
Being competitive in a completely different era means absoulstly nothing. Sure Dundalk (Irish football club) played Real Madrid in a European QF 30+ years ago and look at where the respective clubs are now. The Welsh teams had do what they did in order to stay competitive. If the Welsh can't get behind a great club like the Scarlets what chance does any club have?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by Kingshu on Sat 23 Sep 2017, 12:39 pm

http://m.sarugbymag.co.za/?postslug=/#sa-to-get-two-new-franchises

Looks like SA are planning on having 8 professional teams with 4 in the Pro 14. As mention earlier It'll most likily be the Currie cup teams Griquas and Pumas.

I suspect in 2020 they will enter them but i suspect the one will go to Super Rugby and one to Pro 14 and one of the established Super Rugby teams will move to Pro 14.

I Think that the western teams will be Pro 14 and eastern teams Super rugby to keep derbies. Ie Pro 16 SA teams would be Griquas, Cheetahs, Kings and Stormers, but that's speculation as I don't know if Stormers expressed and interest but Sharks have, that could change if Cheetahs do well and get money from entering Champions cup as well.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 23 Sep 2017, 2:55 pm

Kingshu wrote:http://m.sarugbymag.co.za/?postslug=/#sa-to-get-two-new-franchises

Looks like SA are planning on having 8 professional teams with 4 in the Pro 14. As mention earlier It'll most likily be the Currie cup teams Griquas and Pumas.

I suspect in 2020 they will enter them but i suspect the one will go to Super Rugby and one to Pro 14 and one of the established Super Rugby teams will move to Pro 14.

I Think that the western teams will be Pro 14 and eastern teams Super rugby to keep derbies. Ie Pro 16 SA teams would be Griquas, Cheetahs, Kings and Stormers, but that's speculation as I don't know if Stormers expressed and interest but Sharks have, that could change if Cheetahs do well and get money from entering Champions cup as well.

That's consistent with what's been said by Roux to date. Stormer and Sharks both expressed interest according to previous reports. Using the Anglowelsh comp as a stepping stone to a league in 2020 makes sense. Does this mean the suggested involvement of the Irish and Scottish clubs to create a proper B&I Cup during test windows has been dropped?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by Recwatcher16 on Sat 23 Sep 2017, 7:45 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:Twenty five years ago the Welsh league was the equal if not better than anything in England. The clubs eventually got ditched because of the euro competition - it was madness then and hasn't got any better over the years.

Those senior clubs would now probably be in a two league Anglo/Welsh competition by now.
Being competitive in a completely different era means absoulstly nothing. Sure Dundalk (Irish football club) played Real Madrid in a European QF 30+ years ago and look at where the respective clubs are now. The Welsh teams had do what they did in order to stay competitive. If the Welsh can't get behind a great club like the Scarlets what chance does any club have?

Reminiscing with a Welshman appears to have touched a nerve with some Irish fans on here, when it had nothing to do with them. They seem to believe they know best for Welsh clubs too - curious.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LordDowlais on Sat 23 Sep 2017, 8:15 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:Reminiscing with a Welshman appears to have touched a nerve with some Irish fans on here, when it had nothing to do with them. They seem to believe they know best for Welsh clubs too - curious.

chin

Yes curious indeed.

Welcome to the world of some of our average Irish members on here and their constant craving to always be right. Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sat 23 Sep 2017, 8:16 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:Twenty five years ago the Welsh league was the equal if not better than anything in England. The clubs eventually got ditched because of the euro competition - it was madness then and hasn't got any better over the years.

Those senior clubs would now probably be in a two league Anglo/Welsh competition by now.
Being competitive in a completely different era means absoulstly nothing. Sure Dundalk (Irish football club) played Real Madrid in a European QF 30+ years ago and look at where the respective clubs are now. The Welsh teams had do what they did in order to stay competitive. If the Welsh can't get behind a great club like the Scarlets what chance does any club have?

Reminiscing with a Welshman appears to have touched a nerve with some Irish fans on here, when it had nothing to do with them. They seem to believe they know best for Welsh clubs too - curious.
Or "the irish" are giving an opinion, just like you are?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by Guest on Sat 23 Sep 2017, 9:19 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:Reminiscing with a Welshman appears to have touched a nerve with some Irish fans on here, when it had nothing to do with them. They seem to believe they know best for Welsh clubs too - curious.

chin

Yes curious indeed.

Welcome to the world of some of our average Irish members on here and their constant craving to always be right. Rolling Eyes

Relax, LD. You're coming across as anti-Irish. Cool yer jets boy.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Post by marty2086 on Sat 23 Sep 2017, 11:55 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:Reminiscing with a Welshman appears to have touched a nerve with some Irish fans on here, when it had nothing to do with them. They seem to believe they know best for Welsh clubs too - curious.

chin

Yes curious indeed.

Welcome to the world of some of our average Irish members on here and their constant craving to always be right. Rolling Eyes

Laugh

Thats from the guy who claims he puts people to bed

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