England vs West Indies - test series thread

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England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

So England have announced that the squad for this series will be announced today....will try to update as soon as it comes out!
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by wisden on Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:43 pm

having to listen to this on TMS, really wish i was home and could actually watch it...

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:45 pm

dummy_half wrote:England need a couple of quick wickets to even bring the draw back into play (and get one while I was writing)

Oh, as for the declaration, we were 8 down and in the first innings we lost the last 3 wickets without adding a run. While Woakes and Broad could have added some useful runs, it certainly wasn't guaranteed, and the chance to get a crack at the Windies last night seemed sensible at the time. If a team gets 320 on the fifth day of a test, perhaps you just have to say 'well played'...

Oh I agree ...but you can just bet some "experts" will be on his case for the call...

New ball and they still need 56 . Miracles , anyone ?

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Duty281 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:47 pm

The light is getting worse.

West Indies do need to engage T20 mode.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by wisden on Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:52 pm

Whats the point of this drinks break...just keep playing!

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:54 pm

dummy_half wrote:England need a couple of quick wickets to even bring the draw back into play (and get one while I was writing)

Oh, as for the declaration, we were 8 down and in the first innings we lost the last 3 wickets without adding a run. While Woakes and Broad could have added some useful runs, it certainly wasn't guaranteed, and the chance to get a crack at the Windies last night seemed sensible at the time. If a team gets 320 on the fifth day of a test, perhaps you just have to say 'well played'...

Have to agree with you dummy - England may have bowled poorly, but the Windies have been magnificent with the bat. Hope and Brathwaite have been superb
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Duty281 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:59 pm

England now deciding to gift Blackwood easy ones and twos.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:00 pm

Shai Hope the first player in first class history to score hundreds in both innings of a first class match at Headingley.

Superb
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Duty281 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:29 pm

So pleased for the Windies. This young team have had a lot of garbage said and written about them, but they have shown a stupendous level of moral courage to complete (as looks likely) one of the great chases in Test history.

Victory looked near impossible this time yesterday.

S Hope and Brathwaite have been awe-inspiring.

Hope the Windies can kick on from this tremendous result.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:34 pm

So where's Moeen's fan club today? Moeen got a hatful against a dreadful South African side, and many on here made him out as the second coming of the late Tony Grieg. Once again on a worn final day pitch Moeen has let England down. Moeen is a pitiful bowler and now is the time to select a proper spinner be it young Mason Crane or back to Adil Rashid.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:35 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Shai Hope the first player in first class history to score hundreds in both innings of a first class match at Headingley.

Superb
I was shocked at this achievement as I just assumed the King of Yorkshire(Sir Geoffrey) would've done it many times with his stick of rhubarb

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Duty281 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:39 pm

Root's declaration coming under scrutiny.

As I indicated at the time, I was surprised. But it wasn't the captain that lost England the game; it was two inspirational batsmen.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by LionsV2 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:44 pm

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:So where's Moeen's fan club today? Moeen got a hatful against a dreadful South African side, and many on here made him out as the second coming of the late Tony Grieg. Once again on a worn final day pitch Moeen has let England down. Moeen is a pitiful bowler and now is the time to select a proper spinner be it young Mason Crane or back to Adil Rashid.

You don't have a clue.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Duty281 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:45 pm

Shai Hope hits the winning runs.

Very fitting.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:46 pm

Magnificent from West Indies - people may look at England but I think today we've seen one of the best chases in test cricket for a very long time. Hope and Brathwaite were brilliant and Jermaine Blackwood is just pure entertainment to watch too - great stuff from them all game!
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:48 pm

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:So where's Moeen's fan club today? Moeen got a hatful against a dreadful South African side, and many on here made him out as the second coming of the late Tony Grieg. Once again on a worn final day pitch Moeen has let England down. Moeen is a pitiful bowler and now is the time to select a proper spinner be it young Mason Crane or back to Adil Rashid.

How long have you had this waiting in the wings Nathaniel? Wish we had a dreadful side containing the likes of Amla, De Kock, Du Plessis and Elgar...
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:49 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:So where's Moeen's fan club today? Moeen got a hatful against a dreadful South African side, and many on here made him out as the second coming of the late Tony Grieg. Once again on a worn final day pitch Moeen has let England down. Moeen is a pitiful bowler and now is the time to select a proper spinner be it young Mason Crane or back to Adil Rashid.

How long have you had this waiting in the wings Nathaniel? Wish we had a dreadful side containing the likes of Amla, De Kock, Du Plessis and Elgar...
They can't play spin since Ashwin and Jadeja rip them to shreds last year. Moeen is a pathetic 'spinner'.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:50 pm

LionsV2 wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:So where's Moeen's fan club today? Moeen got a hatful against a dreadful South African side, and many on here made him out as the second coming of the late Tony Grieg. Once again on a worn final day pitch Moeen has let England down. Moeen is a pitiful bowler and now is the time to select a proper spinner be it young Mason Crane or back to Adil Rashid.

You don't have a clue.
Clearly got more of a clue than you. Moeen has no bottle when he's expected to win England a match in the fifth day

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by LionsV2 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:51 pm

Pathetic spinners don't take over 20 wickets in a series.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:54 pm

LionsV2 wrote:Pathetic spinners don't take over 20 wickets in a series.
Moeen has so you're wrong again. Moeen throws the ball and hopes for the best. Continually let's the side down. A fluke series against a poor South Africa side doesn't mask that

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by LionsV2 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:55 pm

I can't take you seriously, goodbye.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:38 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Chase bowled Woakes caught #Cranetrain

Possibly my favourite wicket ever

Just as well for you - and us! - that it wasn't Ansari doing the commentary. Very Happy

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by KP_fan on Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:53 pm

--This defeat will be hard on young captain Root in his early days...and will test his confidence and personality in games to come
He is bound to be subjected to....

" OMG he lost to No. 10 test side in the world
Lost with 320 runs to play on last day
lost scoring nearly 500 runs
lost declaring, showing-off forced positivity....
etc etc

"

--He didn't lose for declaring, but rather because his captaincy is not tight....in my view
There are too many subtle variables and strategy points...that a captain has to keep tight control on bowlers, which end to bowl, field placement weaknesses of batsmen, mind games, motivating bowlers, intensity of fielding and attacking...etc etc
Some take time to get a grip on all these & others do not have the skills to handle all of this...

we do not know which of the two is the case with Root yet......despair on face and in body language was quite evident and he needs to get control on not showing it very soon. The dropping of catches and lapses in the field has also something to do with captain's facial expression and body language

--If he loses Ashes pressure will build on him as a captain.....and pressure multiplies exponentially if batsman captain, loses batting form

--Bowling was a problem for Eng......Woakes medium pace lacking sting doen't do justice to a side with so many capable fast medium bowlers....and Stokes bowled only 5 overs....why?
Steady and solid as Broad and Anderson are....they don't have a 4th and 5th gear....like Starc, Rabada, Shami will go flat out in dire situations to produce a game changing spell of sheer pace.

--And i called out on this forum a few times....talent is not a problem for WI...never was....
Shy Hope never had a 100 and got one in each inning and I think it would have been a world record if same two batsman of a side had gotten 100 in each inning..
Bravo brothers, Gayle, Jerome Taylor, Andre Russel, Benn , Peeramul, Shilingford are all international  quality players not even in the squad.

good final test to look out for
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by VTR on Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:59 pm

A good wake up call before the Ashes. Still think England will take the series 2-1. Quite pleased any time Mr Warne comes up with a ridiculous declaration idea now, this not even ridiculous example can be rammed back down his throat

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:43 pm

alfie wrote:Ashes selection still has a lot of room for debate.  But certainly Stoneman and Malan did themselves no harm here : I'd be surprised if they didn't both make the party now.
Westley will be sweating though.  Will he get another chance at Lord's ?  It is a pity that arguably the most important spot - the number three - is the one that looks least likely to be settled over this series : the alternate choices (Hales , Ballance , Livingstone ?) all looking more suited to batting lower down. What wouldn't England give for a Trott...
One option would see a "third opener" - ie  Hameed , coming in...but more on that later.  My gut feel is Westley will get one more shot at the position ; but he'd need to adjust his game quickly...

Hi Alfie and all - first up, I was at the Oval today and so haven't yet seen one ball of today's Test (got the highlights recorded but won't be able to watch until Mrs Bat and Bat Girl 2 have devoured Bake Off! Rolling Eyes ). However, I still wouldn't be critical of Root's declaration. That's even with me having said last night that I would not have declared when Root did.

If possible, I would probably have batted all the overs last night and then 3 overs this morning. That would have allowed us to further pile on the runs and keep their openers guessing as to when they would be batting with minimum time to prepare. That perhaps sounds rather clever, particularly in the light of what actually happened. However, I would still emphasise that Root's decision was understandable and certainly not daft or overly reckless. Most posters gave us between a 70 and 95% chance of winning. The fact we lost clearly raises issues but it doesn't prove that he made the wrong call. My smart arse approach could just as easily have backfired and seen the West Indies hold out for a draw with time running out when they were 9 down and still some way short of their target.

Anyway, moving on to possible contenders for the Ashes as seen in Surrey's match today against Middlesex. Toblerone Jones had a decent day ending up with a first innings fourfer and has surely - in the light of his recent performances and today's loss - booked himself a flight to Australia. Foakes batted sensibly and effectively for 70 odd (personal highlight: a lovely cover drive for four, cover fielder was then moved back to the rope and the next ball he pushed the ball to where the fielder had been for a single - a sad git like me applauded the second shot more Wink ). He must also be in with a shout of an Ashes tour. Middlesex's radio commentator thought Roy (a valuable innings but suckered out by a part-timer) and Robson (he saw the visitors safely to stumps in the 6 overs he batted tonight and made a 50 yesterday) would also be in the mix for the Ashes; not so sure, myself - I feel Roy is very much seen as a white ball batter by the selectors, don't know enough about Robson this year. Finn was erratic and expensive but picked up a couple of wickets late on - pretty typical and not good enough imo. A wild card - although one that has been around for a while - and a better one imo would be Meaker. He's bowling really fast this summer and, as often said by the Surrey faithful, he makes things happen. He also batted with impressive restraint and maturity.

Finally, back to today's play in the Test. If someone bowled poorly or even dreadfully today, that means ... he bowled poorly or dreadfully today. It doesn't mean he is a poor or dreadful bowler. It doesn't get ignored but it is just a part of making a meaningful and rational assessment of the player. A proper assessment needs to take all aspects into consideration. I am sure those who have been watching Tests since the war will understand.

EDIT and PS: It was very remiss of me not to congratulate Holder and all his West Indies team on a fantastic victory. I very much hope it soon leads to many more - although preferably not in the next match! Smile Hopefully, this win and others will lead to greater interest and proper investment in Test cricket throughout the West Indies. I don't need msp to tell me that the current team is a long, long way from that of Lloyd, Richards, Holding, etc, etc and realistically always will be but tonight, at least, I'm encouraged and, despite England's defeat, pleased. A better West Indies is better for all of us.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:45 pm

On very little sleep I am reluctant to comment extensively yet , but :

Echo guildford's congratulations to West Indies - it showed a lot of character as well as skill. England may have taken them too lightly this time - don't think they will again !

Re Moeen : Nathaniel's criticism is ridiculous. Sure he had a bad day : and I do think his somewhat fragile confidence sometimes suffers when he feels he is "expected" to do the business on a fifth day. But it doesn't make him a bad bowler. No-one thinks he is a Swann let alone a Warne - but he is a perfectly respectable spin option in an attach necessarily based around seamers. And the nominated alternatives are speculative at best...

Agree with KP_fan about Root. Declaration was fine (although the alternative view suggested by guildford was equally viable) and shouldn't be condemned just because it didn't pay off. But I thought his handling of the team on the last day was poor and agree his body language even quite early in the day was worrying. I have no idea why Stokes bowled so little ...

Whoever influenced the selection of a clearly underdone Woakes wants shooting. Did England no good (useful runs apart) and certainly did nothing for the bowler's confidence - and now leaves them with a problem selecting for Lord's. I know he's way better than that but do they take the risk he will produce in the next match , with the series on the line ? The third seamer is important - especially if Stokes has some reason for not bowling extensively - as the main two bowlers (apart from lacking the extra gear alluded to by KP_fan) are no longer in the first flush of youth and cannot be both stock and strike bowler in the same day.

Food for thought for Team England . While West Indies can break out the rum Whisky Ale - or whatever they want...

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by sirfredperry on Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:40 am

Can't understand why England, having produced a terrific effort to save the match, then promptly handed it back to Windies with a stupid and, yes, disrespectful declaration.
   Stupid in that it gave Windies a chance of victory. Stupid in that England were already 1-0 up in the series and didn't have to take a chance.
   Disrespectful, in that they thought they would be too good for the Windies who would not get the runs.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by guildfordbat on Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:02 am

sirfredperry wrote:Can't understand why England, having produced a terrific effort to save the match, then promptly handed it back to Windies with a stupid and, yes, disrespectful declaration.
   Stupid in that it gave Windies a chance of victory. Stupid in that England were already 1-0 up in the series and didn't have to take a chance.
   Disrespectful, in that they thought they would be too good for the Windies who would not get the runs.

Sir Fred - I would have preferred to have heard these comments from you on Monday night. I said then and again last night what I would have done in Root's shoes. My approach was very different from the one that Root took but I still regard what he did at the time (which is so key) as understandable. Certainly not stupid or disrespectful.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:12 am

Bit harsh on that declaration Sir Fred.  For years everyone has moaned about Strauss and Cook being too conservative with their declarations ...and as soon as someone takes an - apparently small - risk and suffers defeat you want to kick him to death ?
Consider : only two last day chases of anything like 300 have ever been made in  Tests at Headingley : oddly enough , both after captains declared ! Root joins Yardley and Gilchrist as captains who underestimated their opponents - or overestimated their own bowlers.
Of course it was a risk ; given the scoring rate throughout the match had been around what was required : but up until Moeen and Woakes went ballistic late in the day it had generally been assumed - on here as much as anywhere - that anything over 250 made England favorites . Is it any wonder England were confident ?  
Did they need to declare ?  Maybe not : a full day might well have been enough to dismiss a team that lost nineteen wickets in a day only a few days earlier.  But most cricketers will agree batting teams hate having to survive for a few overs on the penultimate evening after being run all over the park all day - the chances of grabbing an early break were not inconsiderable. With hindsight we can certainly say the risk wasn't worth the reward but I'm not sure it was that obvious in advance.

Guess it comes down to personal style. : do you always make defeat impossible before you try for victory ? Or are you prepared to back yourself to win ...
OK : this time it failed. Just might be another time that same attitude fashions a win - if it isn't strangled by fear of failure.

People will disagree - fair enough. But condemning it as stupid is a bit OTT in my book.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:13 am

Ha ...slow typist me ...I see you got there first guildford Smile

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by sirfredperry on Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:19 am

G'Bat. Didn't comment earlier as I was on a cricket tour (we lost all three matches!). I was amazed on Monday night at the declaration. To have fought so hard for so long to retrieve a likely losing situation and then to say, in effect, "Hey we've almost saved the game, but, yer know, let's give ourselves a chance to lose it" - well that's just plain daft.
   If England had been one down in the series then, yes, it would have been a good declaration.
   But it was also daft of Root to say England lost it on the first two days. He seemed to have conveniently forgotten that a lot of hard work had - almost - retrieved the lost situation.
   My disappointment at an Eng defeat is somewhat assuaged (can you assuage a disappointment) by Bangla's thrilling win against Aus.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:56 am

Hey Sir Fred

You say that it would have been a good declaration if England had been one down in the series ? Why ?
Surely the only criterion for judging a declaration should be the likelihood of gaining a result ? If the better way to win was to bat on - as guildford suggested - then that would have applied just the same one down as one up : I do not think there was any element of "dangling a carrot" in this decision ; it was purely to maximize the time to get the wickets .
We aren't going to agree on this. I'm not sure I'd have declared ; but I can see why Root did.

Agree his press conference didn't address the true issues. Though I think what he ought to have admitted to was rather mishandling his attack and tactics over the course of the last day...I think he was rather taken aback by the unexpected strength of the tourists's batting and didn't have a plan B. Reckon that was where England lost it ; not so much on the timing of the declaration.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by guildfordbat on Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:12 am

Sir Fred - ok, fair enough as to when you commented but I don't think you should condemn Root for his belief that England could win - the apparently dominant position we were in late on Monday was more relevant than the mess we'd been in and got out of earlier, surely? - and how he went about trying to make that happen with the declaration (as covered more in Alfie's post).

I'll emphasise once more that Root's choice wasn't mine. However, there was more than one choice open to him with varying risks and chances of success. If he definitely chose the wrong option, we can only say that now with hindsight.

PS and Edit: slow typing now from me plus a phone call enables Alfie to nip in and get ahead! Smile

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:48 pm

Getting right away from the declaration...did anyone ask Root why Stokes only bowled five overs ?

I know those five were quite expensive ; but if I recall correctly that was when England were straining - perhaps too much ? - for wickets and rather neglecting cover. Would have thought he'd have been a better bet than Moeen to come on just as Blackwood came to the crease - with the game still just about alive.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by KP_fan on Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:48 pm

alfie wrote:Getting right away from the declaration...did anyone ask Root why Stokes only bowled five overs ?

I know those five were quite expensive ; but if I recall correctly that was when England were straining - perhaps too much ? - for wickets and rather neglecting cover.   Would have thought he'd have been a better bet than Moeen to come on just as Blackwood came to the crease - with the game still just about alive.

i read in the telegraph that he acknowledged having relied too much on Broad and Anderson....and having under bowled Stokes
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:34 pm

KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:Getting right away from the declaration...did anyone ask Root why Stokes only bowled five overs ?

I know those five were quite expensive ; but if I recall correctly that was when England were straining - perhaps too much ? - for wickets and rather neglecting cover.   Would have thought he'd have been a better bet than Moeen to come on just as Blackwood came to the crease - with the game still just about alive.

i read in the telegraph that he acknowledged having relied too much on Broad and Anderson....and having under bowled Stokes

That's nice. Question remains : why ? Stokes is vice captain , for heaven's sake - and not exactly a man lacking in self confidence...
Something not quite right there.

In fact I'd have said far from too much reliance on Broad and Anderson Root was too confident that Moeen was his trump card - rather overlooking the history of this ground.

In 1948 (I've heard - was a bit too young to attend Smile ) Yardley was hopeful his then youthful spinner Jim Laker would do the trick against Australia ; declared and saw the Aussies dismember his side and run down 400. Fifty odd years later stand-in skipper Gilchrist relied on the great Shane Warne to back his declaration against a struggling England team - but along came Mark Butcher...

You learn from history or get to repeat it....

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by sirfredperry on Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:20 am

I see Bayliss has joined Root in - crazily IMHO - reckoning England lost the match on the first two days.
   This is complete tosh and I repeat that both Root and Bayliss have completely overlooked the fact that England were within around half an hour or 20 runs or so of saving the match on the fourth evening.
   You can bet your life that Root, one up against Australia with one to play, would never have contemplated such a declaration.
   Yardley, at Leeds in 1948, was desperate for a win against Aus who were already ahead in the series. Gilchrist in 2001 had already clinched the Ashes before handing England the win, albeit with a terrific innings from Mark Butcher.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:47 pm

Think you are rather overlooking my point there , Sir Fred. The common narrative is that in each case the declaring captain thought a declaration wise because he believed the pitch had worn to the point where his spinnerwould be decisive on day five.

This is generally a sound enough belief ; but it seems Headingley has a habit of confounding such expectations. The pitch in this case certainly aided Moeen far less than almost anyone thought yesterday. I recall suggesting the other day that there might be less there for the spinner than conventional wisdom decreed - but even I admit to thinking - after Chase gained apparent assistance over Sunday/Monday - that this time the "worn pitch" theory might apply. But no...

I really feel this was the main reason for Root's confidence in going with an early close - far more than any implied disregard for the quality of West Indies batting.

More seriously it was a reason he used Moeen too much in strategic moments on Tuesday.

But I see we aren't going to agree about The Declaration. So be it...clearly Bayliss and Root are of a different philosophy to yourself and I suppose we will just have to see how it works in future cases as I doubt they'll be swayed too much by one reverse.
Personally I'd be a bit more pragmatic , I think but maybe I'm just getting old Smile

As to the press conference of course Bayliss is basically correct in saying the first two days cost England as they were the reason West Indies were in charge of the game in the first place despite losing the toss. But he is deliberately ignoring the fact that England had wrested back control due to a fine second innings effort... Reason I think is he doesn't want to talk about the fact that England - principally Root - did make a bit of a mess of the last innings . I'm sure they are discussing it in private.

The concern for me is that England were so poor on the last day - and that Root seemed to freeze a bit under unexpected pressure : I think this is far more significant than any error of judgement over the
timing of a declaration ; and I hope he learns from it , rather than just
electing to temper his natural attacking instincts.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by sirfredperry on Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:26 pm

Alfie. Good points. It must be remembered that Root is an extremely inexperienced captain and someone a bit longer in the tooth would probably have handled things better on the last day.
   Middx fans, and many others too, will remember a certain Joe Root (captaining Yorks)  setting Middx 470-odd to win at Lord's only to see the Londoners chase it down!

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:58 pm

sirfredperry wrote:Alfie. Good points. It must be remembered that Root is an extremely inexperienced captain and someone a bit longer in the tooth would probably have handled things better on the last day.
   Middx fans, and many others too, will remember a certain Joe Root (captaining Yorks)  setting Middx 470-odd to win at Lord's only to see the Londoners chase it down!

As a Middlesex lad myself I did indeed recall that ! I did wonder if the memory of that came back to haunt him early Tuesday , when I first noticed his rather anxious body language...

The Bayliss-Root combination is interesting : I have reservations about it as I suspect the coach is himself a little inclined to fix bayonets and charge rather than take a more measured approach ; and Root may be the sort of fellow who could use a handbrake rather than a co-driver yelling faster faster...

That key middle session - once the early overs had yielded no breakthrough - cried out for some restriction of the scoring. We all know how hard it is to slow the rate later in an innings when the chasing team has victory in its sights ...yet somehow England still seemed to believe they just had to keep doing what they were and a mistake would come.. When they did eventually -well after tea - slow things down , it led to the wicket of Chase...but too late. Once Blackwood was away it was game over...

Admittedly Blackwood might easily have got out - he took a couple of wild swipes early on - and the game might well have turned then. But that only happened because scoring had been slowed for a few overs : had it all happened a couple of hours earlier who knows ? Sometimes you have to defend to attack : I think Root was too slow to grasp this ; and I'm concerned Bayliss didn't (apparently) have any input when he should have.

Anyway it's all done now. Challenge is to come back at Lord's ; and that might not be that easy now the tourists have some confidence up. One thing England must do is learn how to bowl at Hope and Brathwaite : they seemed to give them far too many risk free runs in both innings and need to work on this - certainly the analysts have plenty of data to work with over the next week Smile

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by dummy_half on Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:49 pm

A few thoughts in the aftermath -

Engalnd definitely made it hard for themselves by underperforming on days 1-3, and by selecting a very rusty Woakes.

Chase got some turn and variable bounce, but mainly from the footmarks with little assistance from the body of the pitch. It was an unusual wicket in that it seemed to get easier for batting on days 4 and 5, but it was never a pitch with real demons - England's poor first innings came as a combination of batting errors and good genuine fast bowling from Gabriel aided by Roach.

The number of dropped catches was staggering, including some very simple chances for players at this level. Would probably have been a 3.5 day test had the easy chances been taken.

Broad's bowling form is nothing to write home about at the moment, and with a half-fit Woakes as well, there was too much emphasis on Jimmy and Moeen, especaiily given that Headingley is not a spinner's wicket.

Windies played really well (bar the fielding / catching) by their standards, England did not other than the 2nd innings batting, and so the right team won.

I find the fact that Shai Hope is the first batsman to score two centuries in a first class match at Headingley quite staggering given the quality of batsmen who have played there since 1899 - Sutcliffe, Hutton, Boycott and several other very good players. It's not as though Yorkshire batsmen haven't achieved this elsewhere - 20 times in total Yorkshire batsmen have achieved this, including 7 times at other Yorkshire grounds (5 in Scarborough).

Regarding the declaration, I think the correctness or otherwise (without being wise after the event) depends on whether you look at it in the context of the individual game or the series. There is a case that one up in a three match series you just bat as long as you can in the day 4 situation and try to not leave an even mathematically possible scenario - 360 to chase down in 80 overs requires a difference mindset than 320 in 95.

To just try and win the match as a one-off, declaring when Root did was a reasonable call. You generally don't expect any team to chase down in excess of 300 on the last day, and with one that has been as low on confidence as the Windies have been recently, it looks a reasonably safe declaration

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:44 pm

A player I was surprised was discarded so quickly, Ben Duckett, doing bits in the county championship again today. Didn't have a great time of it in the tests, but did well in the one day series in Bangladesh (and did make a 50 on horrible turning pitches).

I'd personally like to see him given another chance at some point
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:12 pm

They've dropped Sir Chris
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:14 pm

#hameedwatch

5 not out off 48 balls at lunch against Essex. Magnificent
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by wisden on Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:56 pm

No suprise about Woakes, he's looked out of rhthym with the ball, no suprise as hasn't played a game..im happy with the selection

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:56 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:#hameedwatch

5 not out off 48 balls at lunch against Essex. Magnificent

#hameedwatch update

11 not out off 100 balls. Sensational
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:59 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:#hameedwatch

5 not out off 48 balls at lunch against Essex. Magnificent

#hameedwatch update

11 not out off 100 balls. Sensational

50 consecutive dot balls now. Incredible. What a guy
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by dummy_half on Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:12 pm

Hameed has had a flurry of runs and is now up to 32 off 51 overs...

To be fair, given his opening partner was out first ball and they've been behind the 8 ball all innings (92-6 at fall of the last wicket), a battling performance like this has some justification.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:45 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:#hameedwatch

5 not out off 48 balls at lunch against Essex. Magnificent

#hameedwatch update

11 not out off 100 balls. Sensational

#hameedwatch update

79 off 225 balls. Edging closer to a flight to Brisbane
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by KO-KING on Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:39 pm

Big fan of hameed, he's the long term solution I reckon, he doesn't seem phased by the occasion, which can't be said of many others recently

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:25 am

Pleased to see Hameed back in runs. Sounds like a heck of a battle to get going in this match (11 off 100 balls !) but he came through and got a score which goes a long way towards stamping his ticket for Australia.
He needs to carry on displaying form now ; but I think they like him and will take him if he gives them any sort of justification.

Makes sense to go back to TRJ for the must win final Test : Woakes clearly wasn't ready at Headingley. Ironically if Roland-Jones had played then Woakes might have been in line to come back for this one - when he might have been readier !

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

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