England vs West Indies - test series thread

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England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 10 Aug 2017, 4:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

So England have announced that the squad for this series will be announced today....will try to update as soon as it comes out!
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 2:30 pm

Interesting that theyve left Woakes out. Lack of cricket may be a thing. But the reports were that the pitch would favour pace over conventional swing , and hes the nearest thing to a fast bowler England have. Lack of cricket may play into that, and the notion of him replacing Malan in a 5 man seam attack was silly. TRJ made the most of his chance so I guess youc ant begrudge him retaining a place, but looking ahead to Aus I just dont see him making the grade.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by dummy_half on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 3:03 pm

Can't really drop TR-J after 2 matches when he took 9 wickets in the first one. OK, it may to some extent have been unfamiliarity helping him be successful, but he did bowl really well in helpful conditions.

Not convinced Woakes is the closest to a fast bowler we have in the squad (I'd reckon Broad is the quickest when he gets cranked up), but it may have been worth including him in place of either Broad or Anderson - after all, it isn't like they have anything to prove prior to the Ashes squad being picked. If he doesn't play in the Tests, then why bother putting him back in the squad so soon?

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by VTR on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 5:04 pm

I think it's a good idea to have Woakes in the squad even if he hasn't been selected. He's been able to train under lights, with the pink ball etc, so if one of the bowlers goes down injured tomorrow he is ready to step in. Also, it reintegrates him with the team as he is likely first choice once fully fit. Seems like good man-management to me.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 5:14 pm

I would imagine they're being careful with him too - don't ever want to push a side strain too far.
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by JDizzle on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 7:07 pm

Think if Broad and Anderson were to be rested in this series, then it would always be later in the series. As they've never played a Day/Night test before, they will need the experience before the Ashes.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 11:20 am

Im going to massively disagree that Broad is anywhere near a quick bowler these days. At his prime he could push over 90, but he usually keeps the pace well down now. From the Hawkeye stats Stokes and Woakes usuaully average a few mph faster.
Theres still a gap between these guys and someone like Starc though. 

(Sidenote does anyone know where the full hawkeye data is now accessed on cricinfo or have they just stopped licensing it?)

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 1:19 pm

I'd say it makes sense not to throw Woakes in. I say this as it would have been his first game back for a fair few months (at test level) AND this is a day-night test. Too much of an ask I'd say. Keep the team settled and build up a winning lead in the series then integrate Woakes into the side. That is what I would say.
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 1:37 pm

As I think England will win this series fairly comfortably I think key issues for them will be selection-wise and hoping Stoneman turns out to be the opener they are look for. Also they will hope TRJ will continue his bright start and that Malan can nail down some form.

England win the toss and will bat so it is road map time.

England will want to get off to a good start early on and bat through the afternoon session to reach tea on around no worse than 80 for 1. In the second session they'd hope to kick on to reach tea around 200 for 3 (no worse than 3 down). Then consolidate in what could be tricky night conditions to close at around 300 for 5.

West Indies will have different aspirations. They'd hope to make inroads through England's inconsistent top order to reach tea reducing England to around 75 for 3. In the evening session have England toiling around 170 for 5 and then in the night session use the conditions to reduce England to around 260 for 8.
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 1:38 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:As I think England will win this series fairly comfortably I think key issues for them will be selection-wise and hoping Stoneman turns out to be the opener they are look for. Also they will hope TRJ will continue his bright start and that Malan can nail down some form.

England win the toss and will bat so it is road map time.

England will want to get off to a good start early on and bat through the afternoon session to reach tea on around no worse than 80 for 1. In the second session they'd hope to kick on to reach tea around 200 for 3 (no worse than 3 down). Then consolidate in what could be tricky night conditions to close at around 300 for 5.

West Indies will have different aspirations. They'd hope to make inroads through England's inconsistent top order to reach tea reducing England to around 75 for 3. In the evening session have England toiling around 170 for 5 and then in the night session use the conditions to reduce England to around 260 for 8.

So you're saying the batting team will want to score runs without losing wickets, and the bowling team will want to take wickets without conceding runs?
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 1:41 pm

No Gabriel for WI is a bit of a surprise - no Bishoo either, so they're obviously not expecting it to turn much
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 1:42 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:As I think England will win this series fairly comfortably I think key issues for them will be selection-wise and hoping Stoneman turns out to be the opener they are look for. Also they will hope TRJ will continue his bright start and that Malan can nail down some form.

England win the toss and will bat so it is road map time.

England will want to get off to a good start early on and bat through the afternoon session to reach tea on around no worse than 80 for 1. In the second session they'd hope to kick on to reach tea around 200 for 3 (no worse than 3 down). Then consolidate in what could be tricky night conditions to close at around 300 for 5.

West Indies will have different aspirations. They'd hope to make inroads through England's inconsistent top order to reach tea reducing England to around 75 for 3. In the evening session have England toiling around 170 for 5 and then in the night session use the conditions to reduce England to around 260 for 8.

So you're saying the batting team will want to score runs without losing wickets, and the bowling team will want to take wickets without conceding runs?

Just a guideline of what both teams will be striving for in my opinion. Sorry if you have a problem with that. Won't bother in future.
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 1:48 pm

Have to say, no Shannon Gabriel for the WI a bit of a surprise. I know he didn't go that well at Derby, but still... Also no Bishoo, so WI go in with Chase as their sole spin option and four seamers.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 1:54 pm

I've been around long enough to know the game comes with no guarantees but do have some hopes that Stoneman will justify his selection. Anyway, glad we have won the toss and bat. Certainly looking forward to the start.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:00 pm

Likely a good toss to win. Suns out but the weathers patchy and theres a fair bit of damp in the air. Could be some early movement as well as pace in the pitch. Not a given for Stoneman to make easy runs

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:10 pm

Roach is bowling what they used to call "looseners"

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:13 pm

Hopes reach so high, then fade and die.

Until second dig anyway. Wink

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:14 pm

That was what you define as a "Jaffa" from Mr Roach
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:17 pm

Sigh. And so it goes on.

Hameed at 2 for Aus then?

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:19 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:That was what you define as a "Jaffa" from Mr Roach


Roach rather seems to have got his act together for the second over after looking like the broken version of Harmisson.


Runs still coming easily though from the other end.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:24 pm

Not a fan of this T20 stuff...when does the test start

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:25 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:As I think England will win this series fairly comfortably I think key issues for them will be selection-wise and hoping Stoneman turns out to be the opener they are look for. Also they will hope TRJ will continue his bright start and that Malan can nail down some form.

England win the toss and will bat so it is road map time.

England will want to get off to a good start early on and bat through the afternoon session to reach tea on around no worse than 80 for 1. In the second session they'd hope to kick on to reach tea around 200 for 3 (no worse than 3 down). Then consolidate in what could be tricky night conditions to close at around 300 for 5.

West Indies will have different aspirations. They'd hope to make inroads through England's inconsistent top order to reach tea reducing England to around 75 for 3. In the evening session have England toiling around 170 for 5 and then in the night session use the conditions to reduce England to around 260 for 8.

So you're saying the batting team will want to score runs without losing wickets, and the bowling team will want to take wickets without conceding runs?

Just a guideline of what both teams will be striving for in my opinion. Sorry if you have a problem with that. Won't bother in future.

That would be preferable
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:38 pm

Pretty disappointed with Stoneman and Westley. Technically poor for the highest level. Foot work isn't up to scratch at all.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by VTR on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:39 pm

I don't mind the road-maps but they are a bit generic, almost always batting side wants to add 300-5, bowling side wants 260-8.

I think you need to stick your neck on the line with some bold stuff e.g. Windies will want to get into England's new caps and have them 50-5, 150ao. Varying it depending on the conditions

As for the actual match, England look keen to resume their approach of always being 50-3 and letting the lower middle order bail things out

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:46 pm

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Pretty disappointed with Stoneman and Westley. Technically poor for the highest level. Foot work isn't up to scratch at all.

You've seen Stoneman bat for 6 balls and come to this conclusion - they should really get you on the selection committee eh
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:48 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Pretty disappointed with Stoneman and Westley. Technically poor for the highest level. Foot work isn't up to scratch at all.

You've seen Stoneman bat for 6 balls and come to this conclusion - they should really get you on the selection committee eh
I'm a member at the Oval, but thanks for your concern. This Windies is hardly going to scare many opponents is it...

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by VTR on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:53 pm

Nathaniel - member at the Oval...........since 1945

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 2:57 pm

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Pretty disappointed with Stoneman and Westley. Technically poor for the highest level. Foot work isn't up to scratch at all.

The Sky commentators being pretty sympathetic. Especially to Stoneman - ''absolute ripper'' per Ward.

Also pointing out in the case of Westley that whilst he missed a straight one, he was probably undone by the previous couple of balls swinging away. That's worth bearing in mind for those (Alfie?) only seeing the highlights if the build up isn't shown.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 3:07 pm

Tbf Olly thats 6 more balls than Bayliss had seen him for

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by LionsV2 on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 3:12 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Tbf Olly thats 6 more balls than Bayliss had seen him for

Smile

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 3:13 pm

Couple of things evident though....if the WeSt Indies bowlers had any consitency then England could be in a much bigger hole by now.
Those runs Cook plundered early might prove vwry handy.
There seems the be plenty in it to reward good seam bowling which must encourage Englands quartet.

As it is though once again they are left relying on Cook and Root to rebuild from a poor start.


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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by dummy_half on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 3:31 pm

Was looking back over the last few tests to see what the scores were when Root has been coming in, For the SA series they were:

T1: 17, 139
T2: 3, 28
T3: 64, 92
T4 92, 30

Oddly, my perception has been that it's been even worse than the numbers show, but it does seem that this summer Root has been in half the time with less than 40 on the board...

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Duty281 on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 3:41 pm

Fine start from England. The new ball wreaks havoc, so for England to only lose two is decent enough.

Now power on. Centuries for these two...

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 3:44 pm

OK missed the first hour but not totally astonished to see Cook and Root at work already...

Stoneman apparently got a good ball early on ? Happens to everyone (haven't seen it yet , going on comments) Pity as it would have been good to see him bat for a bit and get a proper idea but hey it's only one innings. Westley ?

These two putting the loose ball away nicely : good run rate.

Edit : just saw the Stoneman dismissal : yeah. That would have got through a lot of batsmen. Think we can disregard that innings for assessment purposes...

And in defence of Craig and his road maps : 1st day is obviously going to be pretty samey ; but as the match goes on they are generally more interesting and make a conversation starter so I've no issue with them .

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 3:58 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Pretty disappointed with Stoneman and Westley. Technically poor for the highest level. Foot work isn't up to scratch at all.

The Sky commentators being pretty sympathetic. Especially to Stoneman - ''absolute ripper'' per Ward.

Also pointing out in the case of Westley that whilst he missed a straight one, he was probably undone by the previous couple of balls swinging away. That's worth bearing in mind for those (Alfie?) only seeing the highlights if the build up isn't shown.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 3:58 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Im going to massively disagree that Broad is anywhere near a quick bowler these days. At his prime he could push over 90, but he usually keeps the pace well down now. From the Hawkeye stats Stokes and Woakes usuaully average a few mph faster.
Theres still a gap between these guys and someone like Starc though. 

(Sidenote does anyone know where the full hawkeye data is now accessed on cricinfo or have they just stopped licensing it?)

I find Cricinfo virtually unusable these days for any but the most basic functions...

Why they meddled with a perfectly good system is completely beyond me Headscratch

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 4:03 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Pretty disappointed with Stoneman and Westley. Technically poor for the highest level. Foot work isn't up to scratch at all.

The Sky commentators being pretty sympathetic. Especially to Stoneman - ''absolute ripper'' per Ward.

Also pointing out in the case of Westley that whilst he missed a straight one, he was probably undone by the previous couple of balls swinging away. That's worth bearing in mind for those (Alfie?) only seeing the highlights if the build up isn't shown.

Yes thanks for that guildford - I did see your comment but was wondering how he had been playing before that...I haven't yet even picked up how long he was in...Nathaniel wasn't impressed , I see Smile

After being caught behind the wicket against SA , was he playing any differently , technically , today ?

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 4:05 pm

alfie wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Im going to massively disagree that Broad is anywhere near a quick bowler these days. At his prime he could push over 90, but he usually keeps the pace well down now. From the Hawkeye stats Stokes and Woakes usuaully average a few mph faster.
Theres still a gap between these guys and someone like Starc though. 

(Sidenote does anyone know where the full hawkeye data is now accessed on cricinfo or have they just stopped licensing it?)

I find Cricinfo virtually unusable these days for any but the most basic functions...


Why they meddled with a perfectly good system is completely beyond me Headscratch

Thanks, Alfie. I've been meaning to have a good moan about that for a while. thumbsup

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by dummy_half on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 4:09 pm

Cook's rather late lunch will taste a bit better thanks to the single in the last over taking him to 50. Decent start from Chef, scoring at 4 an over and reaching his 50 in a relatively short (in terms of overs) session where he had the minority of the strike.

Let's hope Captain and ex-Captain can restart their innings after the break.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 4:37 pm

Alfie - Westley lasted longer than Stoneman but still really next to no time! Didn't see him bat against South Africa.

Craig - on the daily roadmaps, happy to see them continue although - in line with VTR's post - maybe try to make them more match specific (eg, which batsmen or bowlers will be looking to boss the day and how) and end up putting your own head on the block by saying which way you think the day will end up. Don't worry about making any complete howlers - you're not a proper poster until you've done that! thumbsup

Olly - you seemed uncharacteristically grumpy earlier. Tractor run over your foot? Wink

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by msp83 on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 4:45 pm

Since Root and Cook are set, can't where would the next wicket come for the West Indies. The pink ball would have already gone soft going by earlier player observations, nothing in the air to help the bowler. They are not playing Bishoo the rist spinner. By the time the new ball will be available, England would have had enough for an innings win against this West Indies club level batting lineup.
Said it last year when India were playing a 4 match series against the West Indies. Anything beyond 2 tests against them by any side including Zimbabwe would be an absolute travesty!

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by msp83 on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 4:47 pm

Said that, in certain moments, somewhere from deep inside, somehow I keep hoping against hope, that they would turn things around, somewhere, somehow...

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by alfie on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 4:47 pm

Perhaps Olly is annoyed because Woakes was left out ?

Though I see he was counseling care in returning him from injury earlier ...as his agent he probably had some input into the decision Smile

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by msp83 on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 4:51 pm

By the way, why did they take lunch now? Like in the UAE, tea and then a longer dinner time would have made greater sense?

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 5:00 pm

alfie wrote:Perhaps Olly is annoyed because Woakes was left out ?

Though I see he was counseling care in returning him from injury earlier ...as his agent he probably had some input into the decision Smile

Yeah but remember that Olly was also Ansari's agent. Took his 10% and that was that! Wink

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by eirebilly on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 5:40 pm

I want to comment but do not want to posters curse either batsmen Very Happy
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 5:52 pm

Go for it, Billy! You can always blame msp if the wheels come off - according to him, we've got enough already! Wink

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by eirebilly on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 6:00 pm

Actually very surprised by the Windies bowling Guildford. Thought they were a much better unit than this.
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 6:09 pm

Billy - yeah, very inconsistent. Do feel for Stoneman - so much dross bowling but he gets a complete beauty on debut early on.

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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by eirebilly on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 6:13 pm

No innovation from the Windies attack. This is just all too easy for England. Will be interesting to see what the ball does when it gets dark, right now that seems to be the only hope the Windies have...

Stoneman did fall to a great ball guildord so he can feel slightly unlucky as that was pretty much the only serious ball the Windies have bowled.
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Re: England vs West Indies - test series thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 17 Aug 2017, 6:30 pm

Roach is bowling well, but the rest have been poor. Joseph has been abysmal. Makes the decision to drop Gabriel all the more baffling
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