PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

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PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 30 Aug - 16:48

First topic message reminder :

1).After Sunday's thriller on Long Island, the boys move up the Interstate towards Boston and the TPC Boston for the Dell Technologies Championship, Round 2 of the FedeX Cup Play-Offs. The crowds will be larger and louder than last weekend, but anyone's guess as to whether they will see a better finish than the Jordan/Dustin Duel. Best of the year? Ahead of Garcia and Rose??
Last year Mickelson's duels with Stenson and Garcia spoiled us, but the Northern Trust was certainly pretty good.

2).With so many ructions, actual and speculated, to the Tour schedules, it's becoming increasingly tricky to discern fact and fiction but there is enough chat to suggest this could be the end of the four-tournament Play Off structure, with the Boston date being the likeliest to miss out. If this tournament, the former DeutscheBank Championship, is not replaced, it seems likely that the Tour Championship will be brought forward a week, or possibly two, for 2018. Bound to be scuttlebutt on this as tournament coverage starts in earnest this week. And: Remember, the Dell action begins on Friday and runs through Monday, Labor Day in these here parts.

3).As compelling as last week's Northern Trust finale was, there was muttering among the twittering pros about the value of #18 at Glen Oaks as a play-off hole.
Wes Bryan tweeted:
"If you fly it 315 yards then you have a 100-yard wide fairway on 18 . . . . . . It's a shame that it ended because of a long drive contest in the play-off."
Whilst Poults echoed that:
"Shame play-off hole had to be the worst hole of the golf course . . . . 18th hole suited five guys in the field. Congrats DJ, unlucky Jordan."
All of which makes DJ's play in regulation down the right-hand side of the fairway, well into the rough and blocked out, even more bizarre.

4).In all the chatter about the role of caddies, it's difficult not to like DJ's partnership with his brother - in their case, the caddie's role seems to be not much more than carry the bag and listen to Dustin talk his options through. No sense of anything other than self-recrimination, no regrets, from DJ; just go find it and hit it again. Seems to suit him well, perhaps a refreshing contrast to the interminable debates between Spieth and Greller?
Watching the contrast between Furyk/Fluff and Rory/JP earlier this year was instructive.
Furyk double-checked every yardage personally, engaged Fluff in virtually every single shot however long or short. But never any sense that 100% responsibility laid w/Furyk.
Whilst Rory seemed to leave all the yardages to JP, left him out almost 100% around and on the greens.

5).pga.com listed the most difficult courses on Tour this season (prior to the Play-Offs):
9).TPC San Antonio (Valero Texas Open)
8).Bay Hill
7).Colonial
6).Erin Hills (US Open)
5).TPC Sawgrass (Players)
4).TPC Avenel (Quicken Loans)
3).Birkdale
2).Augusta National
1).Quail Hollow (PGA)
No explanation as to whether there's some calibration for quality of fields, say for San Antonio, Colonial & Avenel, but interesting nevertheless.

6).Dustin Johnson and Rory will both be going for their league-leading fifth Play-Off win this week.
Others with multiple wins are:
3: Woods
2: Vijay Singh, Villegas, Mickelson, Stenson, Horschel, Day. Which means that 56% of Play Off events have been won by just 8 golfers.

7).This week sees the first of four web.com Tour Finals (WTF's) tournaments with the top 25 aggregate money-winners not otherwise exempt earning Tour cards for 2017/2018.
We'll keep track of these events, especially the Europeans led by Seamus Power.
But other notables include:  
Ben Crane, Mahan, Scott Hend, Ishikawa, Summerhays, Tringale, Johnson Wagner, Uihlein, and Robbie Castro who finished 22nd in last year's FedEx ranking, with all the exemption bennies that bestowed. That's the second time he's pulled that trick, tough to do!

8).It looks as if the venue for the Houston Open, the GC of Houston, has been comprehensively inundated by Hurricane Harvey. Quite how extensive the damage might be can only be guessed at, but now Houston has a schedule spot without a sponsor and, quite possibly, a home course. New Orleans was similarly afflicted after Katrina, but they relocated to English Turn for one year, keeping an event which was thought at the time to be therapeutic to the community. Hoping Houston, the City and the tournament, can bounce back following the devastation - best wishes to robopz and anyone reading in SE Texas, SW Louisiana. Shovelling three feet of snow somehow doesn't feel quite so bad.

9).The top 70 in FedEx Points following the Dell Technologies Championship move on to Chicago in two weeks' time. Snedeker, Holmes and Piercy have already hung up their clubs for the season - others at risk of bowing out this week include:
Ryan Moore, Bubba, Adam Scott, Rafa C-B, and Branden Grace.

Whilst at the close of play on Monday, the first ten players for each Presidents Cup Team will have been identified:
For the US, DJ, Spieth, Thomas, Berger, Fowler, Koepka, Kisner are assured of a place. They're followed by Kuchar (#8), Reed, Hoffman, Chappell, Harman, Dufner, Woodland.
International: Matsuyama, Day, Scott, Louis, Charl, Leishman, Grace, Vegas, Si Woo Kim (all look certs), with Hadwin vulnerable in 10th place.
Two Captain's choices each to be named later.

10).And, in Europe, the first points-scoring event for the Ryder Cup gets underway in the Czech Republic on Thursday. If the RC Team was to be picked today, I'd go with the current Top 12 eligible on the R2D:
Fleetwood, Sergio, Rahm, Rafa, Noren, Molinari, Rose, Fish, Rory, Wiesberger, Pieters, Stenson. They're followed by Jordan Smith and Alex Levy (would love to see him take the "next step").

The US have been accumulating points already and the leading 12 hoping to continue to MAGA are:  
Koepka, Thomas, Spieth, Kooch, DJ, Fowler, Harman, Reed, Haas, Hoffman, ZJ, Chappell.

The last four FedEx Play-Off tournaments have been won by Rory, DJ, Rory, DJ . . . . . .. Rory's already won twice at TPC Boston and  Fingers Crossed he keeps this sequence going.


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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 4 Sep - 16:04

GPB,
You made a gratuitous comment about Southgate's MC and tried to apply it to the difference between two Tours. Understand your target but your arrows rather missed the point. Peterson and Langley are good comparisons, and I would add Jon Curran who's very much in the same Southgate boat.

Like Ned, I hope that Pelley does something to redress the balance which, in my mind anyway, is best done by improving from the bottom up, make the regular schedule more compelling for those below the top level. Too big a gap right now between the 7M events and the also-rans.

Hadwin has pretty much sewn up the outstanding International Presidents Cup spot; Charlie Hoffman probably needs to finish ahead of Kevin Chappell to take the last US Team position, but Reed and Kuchar are still vulnerable if someone else catches fire this afternoon.


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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by datagolf on Mon 4 Sep - 16:28

kwinigolfer wrote:GPB,
I know you think I'm stupid, but I explained months ago why I thought the datagolf stuff is seriously flawed.  

Kwini,

Our "study" is really not making any grand claims. The facts (and this part really is indisputable) are that, of the 40 or so players who have played frequently on both the US and Euro tours since 2010, their performance against the field is 1 stroke better on the Euro Tour (i.e. they beat the Euro fields by 1 stroke more than the US fields, on average). From this, you can draw your own conclusions.

My only interpretation of how this is possible is that Euro fields are weaker. The assumption that gets me to that conclusion is that the players in our sample perform roughly the same when they play on either Tour (I don't see why this wouldn't be the case...). If Rory beats US fields by 2 strokes on average, but the SAME Rory beats Euro fields by 3 strokes on average, I can only assume that the average player in a Euro field is worse, assuming my sample size is large enough.

Do you have another hypothesis? And again, this needs to explain a result that was obtained with a fairly large and representative sample, and so a theory specific to 1 or 2 players will not suffice.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Mon 4 Sep - 16:59

Kwini: I don't think Peterson, Langley, and Curran ever got to as high as 50th in the FEX rankings late in the season, let alone 20th like Southgate is.

In 2014 Siem was ranked pretty high in the RtD (7th) and then in 2015 he tried the WTF. Missed the first three cuts and WDed in the 4th one when he had no chance to advance.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 4 Sep - 17:44

data,

Let's hope we're not talking at cross-purposes here.

I would never dispute the depth of the PGA Tour in comparison to the ET.
But your conclusions seemed somehow to be interpreted as the best European Tour players are inferior and I would say b0ll0cks to that.
My argument (friendly debate?) with others has been that the ET players build their years around the Majors and perform better in the Majors relative to run-of-the-mill events than American Tour players.
I am firmly of the opinion that "double-dippers" mail it in on some events on the PGA Tour that they're just playing to make up the numbers. I wouldn't say that Rory is a case in point, but would definitely say some others are, Stenson a good example, some South Africans, Cabrera in his heyday, Westwood etc, their record in Majors seems to bear that out. Even Poulter has a better record in big events than he ever does in "regular" Tour events.
I'm not sure if you concur with that or not, but I would say the records speak for themselves.

Now, there have been other players who've embarked on a PGA Tour career and not made it, for whatever reason, injury in the case of Hansen, Karlsson, one or two others.
Or because of daft scheduling, Ferrie, Fisher, Lowry, Johnston.
Jimenez preferred Europe and Bjorn might have opted out too, not sure. Kaymer of course also. While DC's efforts over here were disrupted, and understandably so.
Others have flat out not made the Tour grade, Gonzo the most glaring recent example.
Anyway, my point is that sheer numbers don't tell the whole story.


GPB,
With regard to Southgate and Siem, you seem to forget that they don't get a WTF opportunity because of their ET career; it's because of their play in PGA Tour-recognized tournaments, whether Majors, WGC's or in events where they had sponsor invites.
The prize-funds on the ET are all over the place, whereas they're much more uniform on the BIG Tour - that's why I chose Curran, only 15 months removed from a Memorial Play-Off loss, not to mention medical issues in his background. Similarly Southgate is in his exalted R2D position because of runner-ups in Rolex events.


Meanwhile, Jason Day doesn't care, especially if he goes -4 for his final five holes. That'd get him a smooth 59.


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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by NedB-H on Mon 4 Sep - 17:57

Siem is a much better example all round. Between 2013 and 2015 he had a top ten at Pebble Beach, and top 20s at the US, Texas and Canadian Opens, all as a non-member. So the guy can clearly play at that level. Equally at times he's struggled to keep his Euro card, so clearly a big form player. I would think he's one of 30/40 Euro players capable of making a go of the US when both in form and fully focussed. Southgate isn't someone on my list.

If anything GPB's argument is back to front. I agree 20th in the R2D should be able to compete on the Web.com. Southgate being 20th is a false position though which shows the weakness of the current Tour. His season is built on a 2nd at the Irish Open followed by 6th at the Open in a little burst of form. Those are his only two top tens, take them out and he's about 180th. Illustrates perfectly Kwini's point about the gap between big and small events, particularly when you base your system on earnings.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Mon 4 Sep - 17:59

So ET players put their nose to the grindstone in 2 Million Euro tournaments while they mail it in 6 Million dollar PGATournaments.

Thats interesting.  Financially suspect.

Sorry, just don't find that to be a compelling argument.

Kwini, I think your dismissal of the analysis to be results driven and if the results were the other way, you would be trumpeting them.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 4 Sep - 18:28

That's not my point GPB and I'm pretty sure you know it.

They only play the ET events they want to, typically home tournaments and bigger ones. But they play plenty of your $6M events because they have to.

For instance, Kaymer is an obvious one because he has three wins in the USA - 2 x Majors and The Players. One runner-up: WGC MatchPlay.
Then there's King Louis and his PGA Tour record:
One win: The Open
Six 2nds: The PGA, The Players, WGC MatchPlay, US Open, The Open, The Masters, DeutscheBank.


I don't think they put quite as much effort into the other 240 PGA Tour events they've played, the run-of-the$6mill'ers. Do you?

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by raycastleunited on Mon 4 Sep - 18:36

datagolf wrote:
My only interpretation of how this is possible is that Euro fields are weaker. The assumption that gets me to that conclusion is that the players in our sample perform roughly the same when they play on either Tour (I don't see why this wouldn't be the case...). If Rory beats US fields by 2 strokes on average, but the SAME Rory beats Euro fields by 3 strokes on average, I can only assume that the average player in a Euro field is worse, assuming my sample size is large enough.

I have a question: are all the players competing on both tours European? Because your interpretation only works if a load of US tour players like Spieth, DJ etc, compete regularly on the Euro tour and then demonstrate superior results.

Your assumption that players perform the same on either tour is flawed. Am certain that it takes many years for overseas players to feel as comfortable on a foreign tour as their home tour.

Having said that, we all know the PGA tour has the deepest pool of talent and all the best players gravitate towards it.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 4 Sep - 18:40

NedB-H wrote:Siem is a much better example all round. Between 2013 and 2015 he had a top ten at Pebble Beach, and top 20s at the US, Texas and Canadian Opens, all as a non-member. So the guy can clearly play at that level. Equally at times he's struggled to keep his Euro card, so clearly a big form player. I would think he's one of 30/40 Euro players capable of making a go of the US when both in form and fully focussed. Southgate isn't someone on my list.

If anything GPB's argument is back to front. I agree 20th in the R2D should be able to compete on the Web.com. Southgate being 20th is a false position though which shows the weakness of the current Tour. His season is built on a 2nd at the Irish Open followed by 6th at the Open in a little burst of form. Those are his only two top tens, take them out and he's about 180th. Illustrates perfectly Kwini's point about the gap between big and small events, particularly when you base your system on earnings.


Without micro-checking, GPB could just as easily have chosen Grillo rather than Siem; no-one knew who he was when he runnered up in Puerto Rico. He thus earned a WTF spot, won and then won his first PGA Tour event as a new Member. Now he's likely a Captain's pick away from the Presidents Cup, all transcending his promising early career on the E.T.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Mon 4 Sep - 18:53

raycastleunited wrote:

I have a question: are all the players competing on both tours European? Because your interpretation only works if a load of US tour players like Spieth, DJ etc, compete regularly on the Euro tour and then demonstrate superior results.

Your assumption that players perform the same on either tour is flawed. Am certain that it takes many years for overseas players to feel as comfortable on a foreign tour as their home tour.

Having said that, we all know the PGA tour has the deepest pool of talent and all the best players gravitate towards it.

The players all played 40 rounds each on non co-sanctioned European and PGATour events. No WGCs or Majors counted.

And some of the players were not European. Grace, Sterne, Lahiri, Els etc. were some of players analyzed. There were no Americans on the list because there were no Americans that played 40 rounds on both the European Tour and PGATour. (Koepka didn't make the analysis, not sure why). Grillo did, and he averaged 1.34 strokes better than avg on the EuroT (140 rounds) and 0.63 strokes better than avg on the PGAT (107 rounds).

If you mouse over the spots on the chart in the article, you will see the detail behind each data point. Player, scoring against the Average and number of rounds

http://datagolf.ca/2017/02/


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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 4 Sep - 19:07

Spieth going crazy.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Shotrock on Mon 4 Sep - 21:38

GPB - Great data. Nothing (should) devastate an opinion like a number.

Kwin - You seem to be taking a victim mentality here. Bring cash, get the best players. Basic business.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 4 Sep - 21:42

Shotrock wrote:GPB - Great data. Nothing (should) devastate an opinion like a number.

Kwin - You seem to be taking a victim mentality here. Bring cash, get the best players. Basic business.


Don't think you've been following.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Shotrock on Mon 4 Sep - 21:46

Said Kwin - "The handcuffs from PGA Tour HQ are the real impediment discouraging American golfers to play other Tours"

Wrong.

The real handcuffs are the purses.

You must understand that much.


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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 4 Sep - 22:04

McLaren wrote:Just read pea brain smashed his putter.  thumbsup
picard Are you talking about Garcia?
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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Shotrock on Mon 4 Sep - 22:10

Navy -

http://deadspin.com/sergio-garcia-smashed-his-putter-in-anger-then-sank-a-1799367212

Pea Brain = Garcia.

What a tool.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 4 Sep - 22:11

Shotrock wrote:Said Kwin - "The handcuffs from PGA Tour HQ are the real impediment discouraging American golfers to play other Tours"

Wrong.

The real handcuffs are the purses.

You must understand that much.



I responded to that, in a fairly rational way, I thought. What was so deserving of your typically patronising response six+ hours later? Good lord.


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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 4 Sep - 22:13

Shotrock wrote:Said Kwin - "The handcuffs from PGA Tour HQ are the real impediment discouraging American golfers to play other Tours"

Wrong.

The real handcuffs are the purses.

You must understand that much.

Not shooting specifically at you SR, but Christ almighty, what is this? My d!ck's bigger than yours? Rolling Eyes
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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Shotrock on Mon 4 Sep - 22:17

Navy - Holy Cow ... blame the US Tour "handcuffs" for the ET inability to attract players? Good grief ... again, talk about victim mentality ... get off your wallet FFS! Wink

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Mon 4 Sep - 22:20

kwinigolfer wrote:
Shotrock wrote:Said Kwin - "The handcuffs from PGA Tour HQ are the real impediment discouraging American golfers to play other Tours"

Wrong.

The real handcuffs are the purses.

You must understand that much.



I responded to that, in a fairly rational way, I thought. What was so deserving of your typically patronising response six+ hours later? Good lord.


Careful Kwini, people might confuse you with Spieth the Redeemer.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Shotrock on Mon 4 Sep - 22:24

Kwin - Didn't realize there was a time limit to responses. Gotta check the "rules"!

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 4 Sep - 22:27

Shotrock wrote:Navy - Holy Cow ... blame the US Tour "handcuffs" for the ET inability to attract players? Good grief ... again, talk about victim mentality ... get off your wallet FFS! Wink


Ridiculous, Why don't you respond to my answer, not just echo something totally out of context? No-one disputes the BIG MONEY ON THE EFFING GINORMOUS TOUR MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN. But there's more to it than that and that's what I tried to suggest. Pity you never try reasoning.

super,
See the lower case lord . . . . . . .

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Shotrock on Mon 4 Sep - 22:42

Why don't you try to articulate how not bringing more money than the US tour can offer would not be a remedy to attracting more and better players to the "European" tour?

Did I respond in time?




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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 4 Sep - 23:10

kwinigolfer wrote:
Shotrock wrote:Disagree with that Kwin! The "real impediment" is the lack of money.

The US tour can put all the handcuffs they want on players, but if the ET offered significantly larger purses the mercenaries would come in droves, and leave the US tour stumbling. Competing for the same players at the same time? Bring cash.


Not so true any more for the Rolex events.
And never true for appearance money.

"If the ET offered significantly larger purses the" PGA Tour would just up the ante, almost as if they've kept a glass ceiling on purses for ever, not allowing tournaments to outbid each other on a regular basis, cartel-like and completely understandable. But you know darn well that at least a dozen, probably more like 20, could easily offer $2M or more to their winners. Sure, there might be slightly more interest, but no chance it would "leave the US tour stumbling".

Shotrock,

This was my original response. Not sure why you wouldn't have responded, why you just go off on an entirely irrelevant, patronising tangent.
It would be crazy for the ET to enter an arms race, much more important they develop properly from the ground up. 'Course, you've told us a gazillion times no-one except you and the Tour understand business . . . . . .
I reckon the Tour understands business so well they'll make damn sure that it can always offer more money, at least for the foreseeable future. No-one in Europe should have a problem with that.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Shotrock on Mon 4 Sep - 23:27

Kwin - Stay on tangent here. How do you know how far the US would "up the ante"? ... no conjecture, just pure math ...

At some point, if the ET ponies up the money, the US sponsors will throw their arms up and say uncle. They will move onto bowling, or some crazy extreme sport. Simple as that.

Get to that number. If you can't get that number THAT'S the reason why the ET isn't getting better players.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 4 Sep - 23:28

In other news, imagine Stricker will choose Hoffman & Mickelson as his Captain's picks.
Would think Price would take Grillo, but what about the 12th man? The Asian du jour most likely. I'd take Ben An but anyone's guess really.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 4 Sep - 23:30

Shotrock wrote:Kwin - Stay on tangent here. How do you know how far the US would "up the ante"? ... no conjecture, just pure math ...

At some point, if the ET ponies up the money, the US sponsors will throw their arms up and say uncle. They will move onto bowling, or some crazy extreme sport. Simple as that.

Get to that number. If you can't get that number THAT'S the reason why the ET isn't getting better players.


I imagine the Tour has got oodles of loot up their sleeves, it might not be your grandfather's Tour, but there's a yuuuge untapped reserve of cash for the right events - and the others still offer purses that European sponsors won't get close to.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by pedro on Mon 4 Sep - 23:34

Shotrock wrote:Why don't you try to articulate how not bringing more money than the US tour can offer would not be a remedy to attracting more and better players to the "European" tour?

Did I respond in time?



The ET may not offer higher purses but it sure offers higher taxes..

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Tue 5 Sep - 0:56

Vardon (and Nelson) Trophy Race

68.800 Jordan
68.945 Rickie
69.269 Rory (cannot win Vardon, not enough rounds, but can win the Nelson award)
69.315 J.T.
69.359 Hideki

4 players have won over $8 Million this year, (JT, Jordan, Dustin, Hideki). JT and Jordan are nearly guaranteed to win 9+ Million if they play both BMW and TC.

I don't think there has ever been more than 2 players to win $8+ Million.

Thomas has virtually clinched the PGAofA PoY award. Unless Spieth wins both BMW and Tour Championship)

J.T. has 106 pts (30 for the PGA, 40 for 4 regular wins, 20 pts for leading the money list and 16 pts for being third in Vardon trophy)

Spieth has 88 pts (30 for winning the Open, 20 for 2 regular wins, 20 pts for leading the Vardon, 18 for 2nd in money)

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 5 Sep - 10:01

Shotrock wrote:Navy - Holy Cow ... blame the US Tour "handcuffs" for the ET inability to attract players? Good grief ... again, talk about victim mentality ... get off your wallet FFS! Wink
picard I don't give a damn which Tour is bigger. I just find the "My d!ck's bigger than yours" mentality somewhat pathetic.
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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 5 Sep - 10:04

pedro wrote:
Shotrock wrote:Why don't you try to articulate how not bringing more money than the US tour can offer would not be a remedy to attracting more and better players to the "European" tour?

Did I respond in time?



The ET may not offer higher purses but it sure offers higher taxes..
Good. It's part of how you have a decent social structure in place.
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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 5 Sep - 10:05

GPB wrote:Vardon (and Nelson) Trophy Race

68.800 Jordan
68.945 Rickie
69.269 Rory (cannot win Vardon, not enough rounds, but can win the Nelson award)
69.315 J.T.
69.359 Hideki

4 players have won over $8 Million this year, (JT, Jordan, Dustin, Hideki). JT and Jordan are nearly guaranteed to win 9+ Million if they play both BMW and TC.

I don't think there has ever been more than 2 players to win $8+ Million.

Thomas has virtually clinched the PGAofA PoY award.  Unless Spieth wins both BMW and Tour Championship)

J.T. has 106 pts (30 for the PGA, 40 for 4 regular wins, 20 pts for leading the money list and 16 pts for being third in Vardon trophy)

Spieth has 88 pts (30 for winning the Open, 20 for 2 regular wins, 20 pts for leading the Vardon, 18 for 2nd in money)
Thomas is having some year now isn't he? Major talent.
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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by I'm never wrong on Tue 5 Sep - 13:25

On Poulter's Twitter feed he said he was aiming to get into the Tour Championship. I think it will be a bit of a stretch. Roughly, what will he need to do in the next tournament to get there? Don't need to be precise. Thanks.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Tue 5 Sep - 14:44

I'm never wrong wrote:On Poulter's Twitter feed he said he was aiming to get into the Tour Championship. I think it will be a bit of a stretch. Roughly, what will he need to do in the next tournament to get there?  Don't need to be precise. Thanks.

Last year, a player needed 1600+ pts to make the Tour Championship, and IJP would need a solo third to get to that point level

However the points are more top heavy this year so I think a Solo 6th or better should be enough for him to advance to Tour Champ. I would give it a 60% chance of advancing. Solo 5th would probably be a 90% chance

He is 387 pts behind #23 Russell Henley, and solo 6th is worth 400 pts.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by I'm never wrong on Tue 5 Sep - 15:00

Thanks GPB. That's exactly what I was looking for.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Tue 5 Sep - 15:37

PGA Tour handcuffing players?  Actually that's TRUE...  

IMO the PGA Tour is fairly accommodating to top dual tour international players coming to the PGAT with the only real requirement being the 15 event minimum.  A top player who qualifies for the 8 big co-sanctions has to play only 7 other events. Of course it gets more difficult to the international player who doesn't make a lot of the BIG-8 or doesn't qualify deep into the FE playoffs.

But the real handcuffs are the OTHER way, in making it very difficult for American's (either north or south Americans) to dual tour on the Euro Tour.   The problem is getting enough Conflicting Event Releases (CER's) from the PGA Tour to play a reasonable schedule on the Euro Tour.   A PGA Tour player gets 3 automatic CER's for playing 15 PGAT events, then 1 more for each 5 events he plays thereafter.  So a guy playing 25 events on the PGAT can get 5 conflicting event releases.   That's enough to make his minimum 5 ET events... but that's about all. Otherwise that 25 event PGAT player has to play on PGAT off weeks to play more than 5. There are very few off weeks, and the December ET events are mostly pretty weak.

IMO the appearance fees available from primarily the Middle East along with more of these $7 mil Rolex events will tempt more current full time PGAT guys to try a ET schedule.  But few are likely to maintain it beyond a year or two.  Other than the few who can command really big appearance fees, unless players just want to "see the world", there's no real reason for PGAT guys to go the other way.

Bottom line: IMO the future of the ET's potential strength is keeping more of it's "homegrowns" from running off to the PGAT plus getting their share of the better "rest of the world" players and holding on to them better once they get them.  IMO the direction the ET is going with these Rolex events is a strong step in that direction.  But it'll take a while to see if it's really effective or not.  

The other thing in the ET's favor is dual touring is DAMN HARD, even for a lot of those really top-tier players. Effectively, most find the best way to long term dual tour on the PGAT is to relocate their home base to the states and be prepared to play more than the 15 event minimum if necessary.  That's a tough choice to leave their home, and now with maybe more money in premium events on the ET... fewer will feel the need.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 6 Sep - 1:28

robopz wrote:PGA Tour handcuffing players?  Actually that's TRUE...  

IMO the PGA Tour is fairly accommodating to top dual tour international players coming to the PGAT with the only real requirement being the 15 event minimum.  A top player who qualifies for the 8 big co-sanctions has to play only 7 other events. Of course it gets more difficult to the international player who doesn't make a lot of the BIG-8 or doesn't qualify deep into the FE playoffs.

But the real handcuffs are the OTHER way, in making it very difficult for American's (either north or south Americans) to dual tour on the Euro Tour.   The problem is getting enough Conflicting Event Releases (CER's) from the PGA Tour to play a reasonable schedule on the Euro Tour.   A PGA Tour player gets 3 automatic CER's for playing 15 PGAT events, then 1 more for each 5 events he plays thereafter.  So a guy playing 25 events on the PGAT can get 5 conflicting event releases.   That's enough to make his minimum 5 ET events... but that's about all. Otherwise that 25 event PGAT player has to play on PGAT off weeks to play more than 5. There are very few off weeks, and the December ET events are mostly pretty weak.

IMO the appearance fees available from primarily the Middle East along with more of these $7 mil Rolex events will tempt more current full time PGAT guys to try a ET schedule.  But few are likely to maintain it beyond a year or two.  Other than the few who can command really big appearance fees, unless players just want to "see the world", there's no real reason for PGAT guys to go the other way.

Bottom line: IMO the future of the ET's potential strength is keeping more of it's "homegrowns" from running off to the PGAT plus getting their share of the better "rest of the world" players and holding on to them better once they get them.  IMO the direction the ET is going with these Rolex events is a strong step in that direction.  But it'll take a while to see if it's really effective or not.  

The other thing in the ET's favor is dual touring is DAMN HARD, even for a lot of those really top-tier players. Effectively, most find the best way to long term dual tour on the PGAT is to relocate their home base to the states and be prepared to play more than the 15 event minimum if necessary.  That's a tough choice to leave their home, and now with maybe more money in premium events on the ET... fewer will feel the need.



Thanks robo,
Agree with pretty much all of that.
Just spent the day in Shotrock's hometown, was hoping he'd be around to continue the discussion!

Much more important, how ya doin'? Have spent most of the day clearing out a mold-infested house, probably should be condemned, that was first flooded 2 years ago - can't imagine what the Greater Houston area is going through.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 6 Sep - 13:05

Captains' Choices for Presidents Cup to be announced this evening.
I'll go for Charley Hoffman as he only missed out by a fraction of a point (to Kevin Chappell) and expect Stricker to take Phil, though he's back in 15th place in the qualifying ranks.
And Grillo and the Asian du jour for Nick Price, probably Tanihara, who's 12th in points, but I would have thought Ben An or Lahiri (poor record in 2015 PC) would be a good long-term choice, especially given their US experience.


Kinda nice story about "Captains' Picks" of years gone by from pgatour.com:

http://www.pgatour.com/long-form/2017/09/03/the-presidents-cup-is-here.html

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by raycastleunited on Wed 6 Sep - 14:43

robopz wrote:PGA Tour handcuffing players?  Actually that's TRUE...  

IMO the PGA Tour is fairly accommodating to top dual tour international players coming to the PGAT with the only real requirement being the 15 event minimum.  A top player who qualifies for the 8 big co-sanctions has to play only 7 other events. Of course it gets more difficult to the international player who doesn't make a lot of the BIG-8 or doesn't qualify deep into the FE playoffs.

But the real handcuffs are the OTHER way, in making it very difficult for American's (either north or south Americans) to dual tour on the Euro Tour.   The problem is getting enough Conflicting Event Releases (CER's) from the PGA Tour to play a reasonable schedule on the Euro Tour.   A PGA Tour player gets 3 automatic CER's for playing 15 PGAT events, then 1 more for each 5 events he plays thereafter.  So a guy playing 25 events on the PGAT can get 5 conflicting event releases.   That's enough to make his minimum 5 ET events... but that's about all. Otherwise that 25 event PGAT player has to play on PGAT off weeks to play more than 5. There are very few off weeks, and the December ET events are mostly pretty weak.

IMO the appearance fees available from primarily the Middle East along with more of these $7 mil Rolex events will tempt more current full time PGAT guys to try a ET schedule.  But few are likely to maintain it beyond a year or two.  Other than the few who can command really big appearance fees, unless players just want to "see the world", there's no real reason for PGAT guys to go the other way.

Bottom line: IMO the future of the ET's potential strength is keeping more of it's "homegrowns" from running off to the PGAT plus getting their share of the better "rest of the world" players and holding on to them better once they get them.  IMO the direction the ET is going with these Rolex events is a strong step in that direction.  But it'll take a while to see if it's really effective or not.  

The other thing in the ET's favor is dual touring is DAMN HARD, even for a lot of those really top-tier players. Effectively, most find the best way to long term dual tour on the PGAT is to relocate their home base to the states and be prepared to play more than the 15 event minimum if necessary.  That's a tough choice to leave their home, and now with maybe more money in premium events on the ET... fewer will feel the need.

Thanks Robo, that's really interesting.

If I was advising a top US pro, I'd suggest:
1. A GB&I "swing" in July and play Irish, Scottish and then the Open. 3 consecutive weeks of links golf, big purses equivalent to the PGA tour.
2. One of the middle east events in Jan/Feb as they pay big appearance fees and have a decent field. Although the travelling would be horrendous to get from Hawaii / California to Abu Dhabi and then get back for Pebble or Riviera.
3. Finally, I'd suggest an early November event like Turkish open or Nedbank, on the way back from the WGC in China. Again, good appearance fees.

Otherwise there's not really much incentive to take up the CERs. Why travel half way round the world to play a $2m event when there is a $7m event going on much closer, and one where you have a greater chance of winning because you can prepare properly and don't have to fight jet lag.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Wed 6 Sep - 14:59

Interesting article.

He discusses 2011 US team picks, but never mentions that Couples picked Woods who was 29th in the standings.

And the article includes Adam Scott's admission that being picked in 2009 helped turned his career around. Yet, two years ago, IIRC Adam Scott expressed with parts of the Presidents Cup.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Wed 6 Sep - 15:57

Anyone think this is going to turn out well for the USGA?

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2017/9/6/erin-hills-fallout-shinnecock-hills-to-be-narrowed-after-res.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 6 Sep - 17:20

Hadn't read anything about a Shinnecock update - not sure why anyone thinks 60-yard-wide fairways on a relatively short course are consistent with anyone's idea of good Championship golf unless there's something else to defend the course (e.g. wind on links courses).
Beats me why they went with that set-up idea in the first place - it fits the PGA Tour agenda but not what we've come to expect from the USGA.
Or what we see at most of the clubs we belong to.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 6 Sep - 22:42

So, Charley Hoffman & Phil Mickelson for the US Team.
Emiliano Grillo and Anirban Lahiri for the Internationals.

Flyover images of Liberty National make it look as if it's matured a bit from what I recall - hopefully it'll be an appropriate venue for what, after all, is one of the Tour's two flagship events.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by pedro on Wed 6 Sep - 23:13

Can't argue with the US picks.
But maybe Price will get grillo'ed over Lahiri? Although for PR reasons it can't be that bad to have an Indian on the team, now that they already have a Japanese and a Korean.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 6 Sep - 23:16

pedro wrote:Can't argue with the US picks.
But maybe Price will get grillo'ed over Lahiri? Although for PR reasons it can't be that bad to have an Indian on the team, now that they already have a Japanese and a Korean.
And a Hero

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Thu 7 Sep - 15:40

Wot: No Tournaments?

Nope, The Tour understands(?) quite clearly that it's good business acumen not to showcase the web.com Finals when the Tour has an off-week. Shame as these are pretty good tournaments deserving their share of the spotlight, but presumably the business gurus at Ponte Vedra HQ fancied matching the web Tour Championship with the Presidents Cup.

So, no notes from the Ballwasher this week, but well worth noting that there's been quite the turnover in US Team Golf from Ryder Cup '16 to Presidents Cup '17.

Spieth, DJ, Kuchar, Reed, Mickelson, Fowler and Koepka remain.
Zach Johnson, Jimmy Walker, Ryan Moore, Sneedeker and Holmes are out and I'd think it's even money that these might have competed in RC or PC for the last time.

Justin Thomas, Berger, Hoffman, Kisner and Chappell are in so that's a significant changing of the guard in just 12 months.

Have to say that Nick Price looked pretty resigned to his fate during the Golf Channel broadcast showcasing the respective Captain's Choices. Suffice to say that Matsuyama and the three Aussies (collectively 20 wins, 29 losses and 9 halves) have to bring their "A+" games to Liberty National and the Saffers have to maintain their form from Korea. Otherwise, the web.com Finals will be more compelling viewing.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by NedB-H on Thu 7 Sep - 19:21

Might not be any top level US golf this week but the Web.com qualifying school is under way. Three courses worth of pre-qualifiers last week and three more this week, including Funk Jr, -1 and well inside the cut line, and Jimenez Jr, not quite matching the old man at +7.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by pedro on Thu 7 Sep - 19:51

Can't imagine the Presidents Cup will be anywhere near exciting. The Internationals are in for a steamrolling as usual. Only highlight would be if the POTUS showed up for a ceremonial teeshot and knocked out one of the bababooeys in the baying mob of imbeciles with a wayward drive.

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Thu 7 Sep - 21:04

NedB-H wrote:Might not be any top level US golf this week but the Web.com qualifying school is under way. Three courses worth of pre-qualifiers last week and three more this week, including Funk Jr, -1 and well inside the cut line, and Jimenez Jr, not quite matching the old man at +7.

Ned,
Did you see that Ty Tryon is back at it??!!
Pleased to see Gavin Hall through comfortably

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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by McLaren on Fri 8 Sep - 14:39

Remember when ty was on the EA golf game? It was crazy hype.
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Re: PGA Tour: Boston TPC Party: Notes from the Ballwasher

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