Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

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Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 8:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

This is a farce, I know I will get ripped apart for this, but it is becoming a joke, what I have just seen in this first half between Leinster and Cardiff is a joke. How is Isa Nacewa still on the field, then going down like he has just been shot to milk a pen on half time. FFS

Also, do not get me started with the scrum, the young Cardiff boy Kieron Assirati is doing a number on Cain Healy yet the ref is letting Cain Healy get away with murder.

2017, Pro14, nothing changes. Rolling Eyes

Anyway, onto the second half. picard

Oh, just to edit, I forgot to mention Kearnys shoulder tackle when Cardiff were breaking through that was left unpunished by both Brace and Fitzgibbon. Whate a joke. picard

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 29 Sep 2017, 10:26 pm

LordDowlais wrote:You lot seriously need to get a life. OK

The Scottish are moaning about unfair treatment in Dublin, and Irish teams getting the rub of the green, and whats your first responses ? Take a swipe at me. Laugh

What a bunch of losers. picard

Yes - it's strange how your comments attract opprobrium and arguments from fans of every nationality but they're all still in the wrong, or trying to win the internet.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Guest on Fri 29 Sep 2017, 10:29 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Instead he spent his time watching the Leinster v Edinburgh match on 'his mac' so he could let loose more of his anti-Irish rugby diatribe.  

I'm not usually one to stick up for LD but I just had a read through that thread and I see nothing there that is an 'anti-Irish diatribe'. He makes a few comments about Leinster players (e.g. Sexton diving) but so did a number of others. Plenty of people complaining about the ref and about what they perceived to be Leinster getting away with stuff. Even people trying to disguise their ref whinging by saying 'Cockers would be mad' when it is obvious they meant that they are mad but don't want to be called out on 606 for being a ref whinger. Too obvious.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 29 Sep 2017, 10:29 pm

The ref was Ian Davies, yes he is Welsh.

But I find it very amusing that as soon as members, who are not me start moaning about favourable reffing involving a big Irish side start to pipe up, and the remit for the usual members on here is to instantly attack me, even though I have nothing to do with it.

Work that one out. Laugh

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by marty2086 on Fri 29 Sep 2017, 10:29 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Difference being Owens is the best and I don’t ever see complaints about him from any nationality. Heard the guy who reffed Leinster - Edinburgh was crap though - was he Irish?

Well given the Welsh officials only looked at one angle for the Scarlets try with the potential offside and didn't even try to take a look at any others it is a bit suspicious

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 29 Sep 2017, 10:32 pm

Anyway Griff, despite what you think of me, I am going to my favourite place in the world to watch rugby tomorrow EXP.

I cannot wait, my mate used to own the Bridge outside the ground, I have always loved it there, are you going to support Ebbw ?

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Don Alfonso on Fri 29 Sep 2017, 10:34 pm

You're a hypocrite, LD. An unintentionally funny, shrill hypocrite. Next time you yap about Irish officials reffing Irish teams, I'm simply going to post "What about Scarlets v Connacht, LD?" repeatedly until you get bored and annoyed and stop posting.


NB - I won't actually do that. I'll be too busy writing letters to the Pro14 to insist that Scarlets have league points taken off them because they only won because they had an all-Welsh team of officials.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 29 Sep 2017, 10:38 pm

What was the problem the the Scarlets V Connacht game ?

PS I am loving this place tonight. Laugh

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Guest on Fri 29 Sep 2017, 10:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway Griff, despite what you think of me, I am going to my favourite place in the world to watch rugby tomorrow EXP.

I cannot wait, my mate used to own the Bridge outside the ground, I have always loved it there, are you going to support Ebbw ?

I've just defended you. What a bizarre retort!

But to answer you question, why would I go to support Ebbw Vale? I have no ties, knowledge or experience of that town. I've been there (to the town of Ebbw Vale) once in my life when I visited a school through work. Not sure what you mean.


Last edited by Griff on Fri 29 Sep 2017, 10:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Guest on Fri 29 Sep 2017, 10:41 pm

marty2086 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Difference being Owens is the best and I don’t ever see complaints about him from any nationality. Heard the guy who reffed Leinster - Edinburgh was crap though - was he Irish?

Well given the Welsh officials only looked at one angle for the Scarlets try with the potential offside and didn't even try to take a look at any others it is a bit suspicious

Unfortunately it only adds to the calls for neutral refs. Really can't see what the argument is against it. Just switch them around.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 29 Sep 2017, 10:44 pm

Griff wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Anyway Griff, despite what you think of me, I am going to my favourite place in the world to watch rugby tomorrow EXP.

I cannot wait, my mate used to own the Bridge outside the ground, I have always loved it there, are you going to support Ebbw ?

I've just defended you. What a bizarre retort!

But to answer you question, why would I go to support Ebbw Vale? I have no ties, knowledge or experience of that town. I've been there (to the town of Ebbw Vale) once in my life when I visited a school through work. Not sure what you mean.

I rest my case, Griff. Smile
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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 29 Sep 2017, 10:45 pm

Griff wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Anyway Griff, despite what you think of me, I am going to my favourite place in the world to watch rugby tomorrow EXP.

I cannot wait, my mate used to own the Bridge outside the ground, I have always loved it there, are you going to support Ebbw ?

I've just defended you. What a bizarre retort!

But to answer you question, why would I go to support Ebbw Vale? I have no ties, knowledge or experience of that town. I've been there (to the town of Ebbw Vale) once in my life when I visited a school though work. Not sure what you mean.


Sorry Griff, I did not mean it that way, I did not mean it as a retort. Honesty I did not, perhaps typed words come across differently.

On the Ebbw thing, I thought that perhaps if your were Gwentonian, then perhaps Ebbw Vale were an interest to you. Again, sorry if I offended you by assuming it. OK

Anyway, I love EXP. I even prefere it to Sardis. the place just holds a lot of memories for me. OK

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Guest on Fri 29 Sep 2017, 11:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Griff wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Anyway Griff, despite what you think of me, I am going to my favourite place in the world to watch rugby tomorrow EXP.

I cannot wait, my mate used to own the Bridge outside the ground, I have always loved it there, are you going to support Ebbw ?

I've just defended you. What a bizarre retort!

But to answer you question, why would I go to support Ebbw Vale? I have no ties, knowledge or experience of that town. I've been there (to the town of Ebbw Vale) once in my life when I visited a school though work. Not sure what you mean.


Sorry Griff, I did not mean it that way, I did not mean it as a retort. Honesty I did not, perhaps typed words come across differently.

On the Ebbw thing, I thought that perhaps if your were  Gwentonian, then perhaps Ebbw Vale were an interest to you. Again, sorry if I offended you by assuming it. OK

Anyway, I love EXP. I even prefere it to Sardis. the place just holds a lot of memories for me. OK

Not offended by the Ebbw Vale thing. Just not sure why you think I'm a supporter. Remember, the Gwent thing is made up for rugby. It's not my province in the same way as, for example, Leinster and all within it might be for a Leinsterman. I look out for their results only in the same was as I do for Neath or Cardiff or Swansea. Just to see how they got on. I don't feel an affiliation to them. It's meant to work the other way around. People have affiliations and passions for their town/village, e.g. Newport, Ebbw Vale, Cross Keys, Bedwas, etc. and then they 'come together' to support the over arching provincial team (Dragons). But not necessarily the other way around as....well.... I know nothing about the other clubs really (in the Welsh prem) and have no ties. Just as an Ebbw man or a Bedwas man might feel no need to go and support Newport RFC. If there's another club for me then it would be my village side (Caerleon) who've risen to the dizzy heights of Swalec division 1 east, and I pop along and watch them occasionally, but again there's only a bit of interest. As you once said yourself, LD, people can't be expected to follow lots of teams!

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by marty2086 on Sat 30 Sep 2017, 2:53 pm

Griff wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Difference being Owens is the best and I don’t ever see complaints about him from any nationality. Heard the guy who reffed Leinster - Edinburgh was crap though - was he Irish?

Well given the Welsh officials only looked at one angle for the Scarlets try with the potential offside and didn't even try to take a look at any others it is a bit suspicious

Unfortunately it only adds to the calls for neutral refs. Really can't see what the argument is against it. Just switch them around.

I think the decision was made based on technical faults and just threw the head up given the time taken to get there nothing to do with nationality just Owens wanting to keep things flowing

Was just pointing out some of the inconsistancies

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Guest on Sat 30 Sep 2017, 4:18 pm

Hi marty2086 wrote:
Griff wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Difference being Owens is the best and I don’t ever see complaints about him from any nationality. Heard the guy who reffed Leinster - Edinburgh was crap though - was he Irish?

Well given the Welsh officials only looked at one angle for the Scarlets try with the potential offside and didn't even try to take a look at any others it is a bit suspicious

Unfortunately it only adds to the calls for neutral refs. Really can't see what the argument is against it. Just switch them around.

I think the decision was made based on technical faults and just threw the head up given the time taken to get there nothing to do with nationality just Owens wanting to keep things flowing

Was just pointing out some of the inconsistancies

Ok, but you said 'Welsh officials' and the that their actions were 'a bit suspicious'. That's basically an accusation of bias! I've never been one to accuse refs of cheating or bias. I simply don't think they deliberately do or are. But like in many walks of life we try to do things to remove potential for bias, unfairness, etc. Judges are top professionals who I'd like to think would be ultra professional in the court room and would not allow personal factors to influence their decisions. But they still aren't allowed to rule over court cases involving family members. Why, if they're ultra professional and upstanding members of society?! Because it''s that potential for unintended or inherent bias/favouritism, the 'human nature' factor, that we try to control. I just think it's one less thing to beat the ref with if we make them neutral. They get enough stick as it is and have a difficult enough job! Doesn't stop a rubbish ref being a rubbish ref though I suppose, but at least we can be more accurate with our reasoning for incorrect decisions (i.e. the ref's skills rather than his bias)!

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 02 Oct 2017, 12:28 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Difference being Owens is the best and I don’t ever see complaints about him from any nationality.


He's not the best, and he's not without his critics either.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Marshes on Mon 02 Oct 2017, 6:05 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Difference being Owens is the best and I don’t ever see complaints about him from any nationality.


He's not the best, and he's not without his critics either.

I think the line of thinking on refereeing bias is misguided, but if you were trying to make the particular shoe fit, Nigel Owens gave Scarlets an absolutely ridiculous penalty in the closing stages of the game against Connacht in Parc y Scarlets at the weekend right in front of the posts, which gave them a bit of breathing space. He and the TMO also missed a very obvious neckroll from a Scarlets player which he appeared to be looking straight at. It ended up not mattering when Scarlets put the game to bed with a very late try, but just saying if their is an accusation of bias it shouldn't only be applied to Irish refs.

That point may already have been made but just a recent example.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 1:49 am

Pity some moderator doesn't put this topic on the dustheap. Or are there any moderators left at this point?
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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 10:19 am

The moderators are all biased.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Guest on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 10:24 am

Yeah, I mean how can you have a Scottish moderator moderating Scottish posts?! It's just not fair. They may share the same blood line as some of the posters so they're BOUND to take their side!

Shocked Wink Very Happy Yahoo Laugh Doh

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 10:34 am

Don Alfonso wrote:

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Ben Whitehouse, John Hardy (Wales)
Citing commissioner: Paul Thomas (Wales)
TMO: Sean Brickell (Wales)

That is ridiculous to have 5 out of 5 officials from the same country as one of the teams!! I don't see how a competition can have any credibility when this keeps happening.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by marty2086 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 10:38 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Ben Whitehouse, John Hardy (Wales)
Citing commissioner: Paul Thomas (Wales)
TMO: Sean Brickell (Wales)

That is ridiculous to have 5 out of 5 officials from the same country as one of the teams!! I don't see how a competition can have any credibility when this keeps happening.

Why?

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:05 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Ben Whitehouse, John Hardy (Wales)
Citing commissioner: Paul Thomas (Wales)
TMO: Sean Brickell (Wales)

That is ridiculous to have 5 out of 5 officials from the same country as one of the teams!! I don't see how a competition can have any credibility when this keeps happening.

Totally agree. 100%

clap clap

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Pete330v2 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:14 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'd take a full set of competent Welsh officials when we're playing a Welsh side 100% of the time over the likes of Mike Adamson or Dan Jones.
Ben Whitehouse and Nigel Owens are the kind of referees that allow the players and the flow of the game to decide the outcome which is how it should be and if they were reffing every game we play against a Welsh side for the rest of the season I'd be more than pleased. It's the quality of officiating we need looked at, not neutrality.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by marty2086 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:22 am

Pete330v2 wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'd take a full set of competent Welsh officials when we're playing a Welsh side 100% of the time over the likes of Mike Adamson or Dan Jones.
Ben Whitehouse and Nigel Owens are the kind of referees that allow the players and the flow of the game to decide the outcome which is how it should be and if they were reffing every game we play against a Welsh side for the rest of the season I'd be more than pleased. It's the quality of officiating we need looked at, not neutrality.

Whitehouse is still a bit hit and miss for me but does look like he will develop into a quality ref

The two reasons Id love to see neutral officials is to shut up unthinking idiots who use it to bitch and moan and to stop Clancy and Lacey ever reffing an Ulster game again

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:24 am

Pete330v2 wrote:It's the quality of officiating we need looked at, not neutrality.

I also agree with this as well. The trouble is, some of the weaker, less competent refs, will always favour the bigger side, or the home side.

In saying that, I do not rate Nigel Owens as much as others do.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:30 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Ben Whitehouse, John Hardy (Wales)
Citing commissioner: Paul Thomas (Wales)
TMO: Sean Brickell (Wales)

That is ridiculous to have 5 out of 5 officials from the same country as one of the teams!! I don't see how a competition can have any credibility when this keeps happening.

Why?

The same reason you wouldn't get Nigel Owens refereeing Wales at test level.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:31 am

marty2086 wrote:

The two reasons Id love to see neutral officials is to shut up unthinking idiots who use it to bitch and moan and to stop Clancy and Lacey ever reffing an Ulster game again

That's gloriously ironic.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by marty2086 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:31 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Ben Whitehouse, John Hardy (Wales)
Citing commissioner: Paul Thomas (Wales)
TMO: Sean Brickell (Wales)

That is ridiculous to have 5 out of 5 officials from the same country as one of the teams!! I don't see how a competition can have any credibility when this keeps happening.

Why?

The same reason you wouldn't get Nigel Owens refereeing Wales at test level.

And whys that?

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Scottrf on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:32 am

Even if I don't think there's likely to be purposeful bias, the perception of bias is bad for credibility.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by marty2086 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:33 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

The two reasons Id love to see neutral officials is to shut up unthinking idiots who use it to bitch and moan and to stop Clancy and Lacey ever reffing an Ulster game again

That's gloriously ironic.

Not ironic, given that this thread was setup basically complaining that a Welsh team lost because of a conspiracy, Lacey and Clancy are two refs that Ulster just can never seem to get the right side of and its frustrating even though we have something like a 70% win ratio with the two of them which is more than most Irish refs

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:37 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Ben Whitehouse, John Hardy (Wales)
Citing commissioner: Paul Thomas (Wales)
TMO: Sean Brickell (Wales)

That is ridiculous to have 5 out of 5 officials from the same country as one of the teams!! I don't see how a competition can have any credibility when this keeps happening.

Why?

The same reason you wouldn't get Nigel Owens refereeing Wales at test level.

And whys that?

To ensure 100% impartiality, and ensure 0% conflict of interest.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by marty2086 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:38 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Ben Whitehouse, John Hardy (Wales)
Citing commissioner: Paul Thomas (Wales)
TMO: Sean Brickell (Wales)

That is ridiculous to have 5 out of 5 officials from the same country as one of the teams!! I don't see how a competition can have any credibility when this keeps happening.

Why?

The same reason you wouldn't get Nigel Owens refereeing Wales at test level.

And whys that?

To ensure 100% impartiality, and ensure 0% conflict of interest.

And why wouldn't they be impartial and why would there be a conflict?

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:39 am

Accusations of bias still obviously exist at international level as well. So where people will point at it now and say we ensure there is no bias others will say yes there is. There will always be these accusations from some as they want an external factor for their teams struggles.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:44 am

Griff wrote:
Hi marty2086 wrote:
Griff wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Difference being Owens is the best and I don’t ever see complaints about him from any nationality. Heard the guy who reffed Leinster - Edinburgh was crap though - was he Irish?

Well given the Welsh officials only looked at one angle for the Scarlets try with the potential offside and didn't even try to take a look at any others it is a bit suspicious

Unfortunately it only adds to the calls for neutral refs. Really can't see what the argument is against it. Just switch them around.

I think the decision was made based on technical faults and just threw the head up given the time taken to get there nothing to do with nationality just Owens wanting to keep things flowing

Was just pointing out some of the inconsistancies

Ok, but you said 'Welsh officials' and the that their actions were 'a bit suspicious'. That's basically an accusation of bias! I've never been one to accuse refs of cheating or bias. I simply don't think they deliberately do or are. But like in many walks of life we try to do things to remove potential for bias, unfairness, etc. Judges are top professionals who I'd like to think would be ultra professional in the court room and would not allow personal factors to influence their decisions. But they still aren't allowed to rule over court cases involving family members. Why, if they're ultra professional and upstanding members of society?! Because it''s that potential for unintended or inherent bias/favouritism, the 'human nature' factor, that we try to control. I just think it's one less thing to beat the ref with if we make them neutral. They get enough stick as it is and have a difficult enough job! Doesn't stop a rubbish ref being a rubbish ref though I suppose, but at least we can be more accurate with our reasoning for incorrect decisions (i.e. the ref's skills rather than his bias)!

Given the whole thread is based on a clear implication by LD of Irish bias the response makes sense.
Having said that I am with you I do not accuse refs of cheating or of bias.
Lets be honest the are poor Welsh referees in this league, there are poor Irish referees in this league and the Scots and the Italians struggle to get referees of any standard at all.
We need to continue to improve referring standards wherever possible.
We are not alone, I watch a lot of the Aviva games on BT and some of their refs are pretty ropey as well

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 12:10 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:To ensure 100% impartiality, and ensure 0% conflict of interest.

I am so glad I am not the only one who thinks this. Again you are spot on.

Be careful though, or you will start getting accused of all sorts by the usual brigade on here. Laugh

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by marty2086 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 12:17 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Griff wrote:
Hi marty2086 wrote:
Griff wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Difference being Owens is the best and I don’t ever see complaints about him from any nationality. Heard the guy who reffed Leinster - Edinburgh was crap though - was he Irish?

Well given the Welsh officials only looked at one angle for the Scarlets try with the potential offside and didn't even try to take a look at any others it is a bit suspicious

Unfortunately it only adds to the calls for neutral refs. Really can't see what the argument is against it. Just switch them around.

I think the decision was made based on technical faults and just threw the head up given the time taken to get there nothing to do with nationality just Owens wanting to keep things flowing

Was just pointing out some of the inconsistancies

Ok, but you said 'Welsh officials' and the that their actions were 'a bit suspicious'. That's basically an accusation of bias! I've never been one to accuse refs of cheating or bias. I simply don't think they deliberately do or are. But like in many walks of life we try to do things to remove potential for bias, unfairness, etc. Judges are top professionals who I'd like to think would be ultra professional in the court room and would not allow personal factors to influence their decisions. But they still aren't allowed to rule over court cases involving family members. Why, if they're ultra professional and upstanding members of society?! Because it''s that potential for unintended or inherent bias/favouritism, the 'human nature' factor, that we try to control. I just think it's one less thing to beat the ref with if we make them neutral. They get enough stick as it is and have a difficult enough job! Doesn't stop a rubbish ref being a rubbish ref though I suppose, but at least we can be more accurate with our reasoning for incorrect decisions (i.e. the ref's skills rather than his bias)!

Given the whole thread is based on a clear implication by LD of Irish bias the response makes sense.
Having said that I am with you I do not accuse refs of cheating or of bias.
Lets be honest the are poor Welsh referees in this league, there are poor Irish referees in this league and the Scots and the Italians struggle to get referees of any standard at all.
We need to continue to improve referring standards wherever possible.
We are not alone, I watch a lot of the Aviva games on BT and some of their refs are pretty ropey as well

Missed that myself but it was partially tongue in cheek

I haven't seen much Super Rugby this year but historically the level of officiating there makes Adamson seem competent

Never forget the Waratahs game a few years ago, think it was them that asked if there was time before the first half was up to kick to touch and were told they could by Rohan Hoffman. They kick to touch and he blows for half time picard

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 12:19 pm

Of course it is better to have neutral referees to prevent any perception of bias or cheating.
However I do not accept that Welsh referees referring Welsh teams or Irish referees referring Irish teams are biased or cheating.
That is deeply insulting and totally unfair.
The issue is many of them are not good enough but that is a different problem.

We will continue to see Welsh and Irish refs referring their countrymen until the Scots and Italians pull their weight in supplying referees.
It is a logistical inevitability

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by marty2086 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 12:19 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:To ensure 100% impartiality, and ensure 0% conflict of interest.

I am so glad I am not the only one who thinks this. Again you are spot on.

Be careful though, or you will start getting accused of all sorts by the usual brigade on here. Laugh

Well considering it doesn't do either you mightn't want to latch on to yet another incorrect opinion

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Scottrf on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 12:20 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Of course it is better to have neutral referees to prevent any perception of bias or cheating.
However I do not accept that Welsh referees referring Welsh teams or Irish referees referring Irish teams are biased or cheating.
That is deeply insulting and totally unfair.
The issue is many of them are not good enough but that is a different problem.

We will continue to see Welsh and Irish refs referring their countrymen until the Scots and Italians pull their weight in supplying referees.
It is a logistical inevitability

Honestly, this pretty much settles the thread.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by marty2086 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 12:21 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Of course it is better to have neutral referees to prevent any perception of bias or cheating.
However I do not accept that Welsh referees referring Welsh teams or Irish referees referring Irish teams are biased or cheating.
That is deeply insulting and totally unfair.
The issue is many of them are not good enough but that is a different problem.

We will continue to see Welsh and Irish refs referring their countrymen until the Scots and Italians pull their weight in supplying referees.
It is a logistical inevitability

You've forgotten the South Africans now too who should have a few competent refs

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Pete330v2 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 12:49 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
To ensure 100% impartiality, and ensure 0% conflict of interest.


You get that with a competent professional referee.
You might get the perception, from a few, of impartiality and a conflict of interest but as long as it remains just a minority perception and not an actual reality then we're fine.
It's the utter clampits that we need rid of, the ones who are ruining matches because they are inept.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 12:50 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Of course it is better to have neutral referees to prevent any perception of bias or cheating.
However I do not accept that Welsh referees referring Welsh teams or Irish referees referring Irish teams are biased or cheating.
That is deeply insulting and totally unfair.
The issue is many of them are not good enough but that is a different problem.

We will continue to see Welsh and Irish refs referring their countrymen until the Scots and Italians pull their weight in supplying referees.
It is a logistical inevitability

But it can be averted. That is the whole point. The league is saving a few thousand quid by keeping Welsh refs in Wales, Irish refs in Ireland etc. When instead they should be swapped.

It's unacceptable for example, to have an entire group of officials officiating a team from their nation in this day and age.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 12:51 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:RugbyFan100 wrote:
To ensure 100% impartiality, and ensure 0% conflict of interest.


You get that with a competent professional referee.
You might get the perception, from a few, of impartiality and a conflict of interest but as long as it remains just a minority perception and not an actual reality then we're fine.
.

So why do we bother having neutral officials at all, in professional sport?

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by marty2086 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 12:59 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:RugbyFan100 wrote:
To ensure 100% impartiality, and ensure 0% conflict of interest.


You get that with a competent professional referee.
You might get the perception, from a few, of impartiality and a conflict of interest but as long as it remains just a minority perception and not an actual reality then we're fine.
It's the utter clampits that we need rid of, the ones who are ruining matches because they are inept.

You can't guarantee it though, everyone thinks bias is clear cut but its not. It can be a player giving too much lip and the ref getting annoyed with him and then favouring the opposition without realising

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 1:16 pm

A issue comes if there's a ref who supports one of the teams involved. Hence I'd never ref england but could anyone else.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by Pete330v2 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 1:24 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:RugbyFan100 wrote:
To ensure 100% impartiality, and ensure 0% conflict of interest.


You get that with a competent professional referee.
You might get the perception, from a few, of impartiality and a conflict of interest but as long as it remains just a minority perception and not an actual reality then we're fine.
.

So why do we bother having neutral officials at all, in professional sport?

Do they ensure neutral refs in all professional sport? If Man Utd are playing Chelsea do they only select referees who support neither side? Do they even know who the refs support?
Honest question.

In the Pro14 we have a tiny pool of referees who have to be spread very thinly. We have very little coming from Scotland and Italy and one of the Scottish refs is an Ulsterman who is always overly harsh on Ulster to fight perceptions of bias. The Pro14 has to work with what's there unless we want an even lower level of referees officiating the games as if it weren't bad enough. That leads to some refs having to referee matches involving their fellow countrymen. It doesn't mean they are supporters of either side in fact I've never met a Munster man that supported Leinster or visa versa.
Are the Welsh the same or does everyone simply support the Welsh sides against everyone else? Honest question again.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 1:26 pm

You name who you support in the English football prem. Jeff winter couldn't ref boro but could take charge of Leeds Newcastle etc.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by marty2086 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 1:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You name who you support in the English football prem. Jeff winter couldn't ref boro but could take charge  of Leeds Newcastle etc.

There was the issue of Kevin Friend when Spurs and Leicester were going for the title, he lives in Leicester and has been to some of their games with family. He doesn't take charge of Leicester games but wasn't allowed to take charge of one of Spurs final games that season

Think he actually supports Bristol City though

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 1:55 pm

Do Champions Cup rugby fixtures have referees officiating teams from their own country? (Excusing the likes of JP Doyle)

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 1:55 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Of course it is better to have neutral referees to prevent any perception of bias or cheating.
However I do not accept that Welsh referees referring Welsh teams or Irish referees referring Irish teams are biased or cheating.
That is deeply insulting and totally unfair.
The issue is many of them are not good enough but that is a different problem.

We will continue to see Welsh and Irish refs referring their countrymen until the Scots and Italians pull their weight in supplying referees.
It is a logistical inevitability

But it can be averted. That is the whole point. The league is saving a few thousand quid by keeping Welsh refs in Wales, Irish refs in Ireland etc. When instead they should be swapped.

It's unacceptable for example, to have an entire group of officials officiating a team from their nation in this day and age.

That is isn't true.

There have been weeks when only Welsh and Irish referees have been available and some games had to be reffed by someone from the same nation as one of the teams.
In addition referees are not necessarily available to get to all destinations but can make matches close to home.
This becomes even more relevant with the Saffers joining.

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Re: Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.

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