Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

[Dolphin Ziggler]

First topic message reminder :

I was erring on the side of "too soon" when wondering whether to start this thread, but then I saw Olly had 12-fingered a "World Cup 2019" thread already and thought I was probably ok.

So, we move away from the West Indies and look at a trip Down Under to my second favourite country in the world; aye, we're heading to Australia for The Ashes.

And for us, there are many things to worry about. The top order hasn't really answered any questions firmly this summer: 3 of the top 5 could arguably count themselves lucky to be selected come November 23rd and a trip to Brisbane. It wouldn't be a surprise, given how things have gone, to see one of those dropped by the time we head to Adelaide for a day-nighter that will give those of us with jobs more of a chance to see some cricket!

There are questions in the bowling attack too, although you could be kind and say there's only one. Who is the other seamer? If Wood stays fit, surely he is the man to bring that real fizz that we'll need? But will he be fit? I know Oliver is sure of Woakes, and I do feel his strength with the bat could be useful with the shaky feeling about so many of the batsmen. One could also argue that it is how hard it is to really nail your colours to any of the options below the starting Xi that really keeps a less than inspiring (but still relatively well-performing) Stuart Broad away from much pressure.

Bayliss has said it's unlikely that any new faces will be picked. but with the amount of players England have got through lately, that still keeps us guessing somewhat.

Second spinner? Back-up wicket keeper? Where does Root bat and how does that change the side?

And what of Australia? I think it is safe to say that neither side is coming in with a classic XI on show. 

As I have confessed, I know by no means as much as pretty much anyone who comes to this part of the site, so enjoy reading and learning as we go. 

Go forth and predict your squad(s), XI(s) and discuss all and sundry whilst the words are meaningless and the rivalry brews.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

We might not be seeing Mr Stokes until next summer me thinks

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

And now we have the slight issue of replacing our all rounder...#bringbackCollingwood #bringbackBopara

[GSC]

Think you almost have to go Plunkett, no Stokes only makes the lack of express pace more glaring.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Think you almost have to go Plunkett, no Stokes only makes the lack of express pace more glaring.

Agree - a Plunkett or Wood (i.e. Pace bowler who can bat a bit), something like

Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Plunkett/Wood/Overton
Broad
Anderson

Seems likely...if Stokes doesn't play

[GSC]

Also someone's clearly been sitting on that video waiting for the best moment. Stokes needs to grow up but some seriously vindictive people out there.

[LionsV2]

I don't see any reason why a personal video should be used against him, truly pathetic state of this country when people get so up in arms about nothing.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I don't see any reason why a personal video should be used against him, truly pathetic state of this country when people get so up in arms about nothing.

I'm weirdly inclined to be on your side here

He's obviously a d1ck is Stokes - but he's not the first one nor will he be the last. Plus the ashes will be a lot more fun if he plays now all this is out

[compelling and rich]

he's taking the p1ss out of a disabled kid, while im certainly not a pc brigadier or neither do i get offended easily. its certainly in bad taste and on back of assaulting someone its always going to garner more attention. stokes is either a full blown idiot or not professional enough to justify what the ecb are paying him. whether he likes it or not he's in a high profile job where part of that job is to try not to be a complete f%ckwit

[Duty281]

We might not be seeing Mr Stokes until next summer me thinks

If he's found guilty of anything by the police, it could be the end of his international career.

[Corporalhumblebucket]

I don't see any reason why a personal video should be used against him, truly pathetic state of this country when people get so up in arms about nothing.

Hmm tbf if this was USA that sort of behaviour might well be enough to get you elected as president. But in UK it sounds like a classic case for a "bringing game into disrepute" charge.

[LionsV2]

he's taking the p1ss out of a disabled kid, while im certainly not a pc brigadier or neither do i get offended easily. its certainly in bad taste and on back of assaulting someone its always going to garner more attention. stokes is either a full blown idiot or not professional enough to justify what the ecb are paying him. whether he likes it or not he's in a high profile job where part of that job is to try not to be a complete f%ckwit

What he does in his private life is his business and nobody elses.

[Corporalhumblebucket]

he's taking the p1ss out of a disabled kid, while im certainly not a pc brigadier or neither do i get offended easily. its certainly in bad taste and on back of assaulting someone its always going to garner more attention. stokes is either a full blown idiot or not professional enough to justify what the ecb are paying him. whether he likes it or not he's in a high profile job where part of that job is to try not to be a complete f%ckwit

What he does in his private life is his business and nobody elses.

I think those days are long gone - and rightly so - if what someone does in their private life is massively damaging to the integrity and reputation of the national team. Guess the public are broad minded and will recognise, for example, that personal relationships can break down in a messy way. But if, for example, it's clear that an international cricketer is mocking a disabled child that is certainly deserving of a substantial suspension and/or other suitable punishment.

[VTR]

Sadly for Mr Stokes his private life isn't that once it's all over the Internet. The fight was bad enough and now it's lead to someone digging out this video it's hard to see him facing anything other than a very long suspension.
That could then send him down the T20 league route and I'm now wondering if we'll ever see him in an England shirt again

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

He'll play for England again - and I really wouldn't bet against it being in Australia. I think we're forgetting how crucial he is to all England sides - there's a little more leeway and room for reconciliation when you're one of, if not the best all rounder in the world.

It may not be "right" - but that's what i think it'll be.

[compelling and rich]

he's taking the p1ss out of a disabled kid, while im certainly not a pc brigadier or neither do i get offended easily. its certainly in bad taste and on back of assaulting someone its always going to garner more attention. stokes is either a full blown idiot or not professional enough to justify what the ecb are paying him. whether he likes it or not he's in a high profile job where part of that job is to try not to be a complete f%ckwit

What he does in his private life is his business and nobody elses.

did you work for the bbc in the 80's by any chance?

[ShahenshahG]

I don't think anyone dug out this video, reckon it was sitting on their bedside table until the ashes. Stokes just gave them the opportunity for a double tank

[Pal Joey]

I don't think anyone dug out this video, reckon it was sitting on their bedside table until the ashes. Stokes just gave them the opportunity for a double tank

Most likely a cardboard box in the attic or garage, Shah.

As Alfie has already noted, I would much prefer that our blokes played the best possible England XI. If he doesn't make it then we would all feel a bit robbed. I was actually quite looking forward to see Stokes take on the quicks and have a go at our batsmen with the ball. I reckon he is the one player in your side that could make a significant contribution to the overall performance of the team. He leads by example when he is on fire. He seems so at home here judging from some of his performances on the last Ashes tour - and since then. England needs him and so does Test cricket.

I can only shake my head like you guys and think: what on earth was he doing/thinking and how did such a situation get so out of hand?

It was very embarrassing for us when Warner gave Joe a slap or two in the bar during the last Ashes tour. There have been plenty of other silly episodes from both sides over the years but this one seems to be on another level... and now this mocking video, which could be the final nail.

Anyway, let's see what eventuates. Maybe bring him over but place him on a strict curfew and alcohol ban for the duration?

[wisden]

Any aussies on here? if so what do you think your side will line up like?

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The man above you is!

I can see him coming in after two tests. And I'd be replacing him with Plunkett for now, hoping that him and Woakes can add the bonus runs that need to replace Stokes's

[JDizzle]

Be interesting to see how Moeen goes this winter. Bowling off-spin in Australia is hard and I think they'll get men back on the hook and pepper him with the short ball when he bats. That won't be a secret so he better be prepared!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Be interesting to see how Moeen goes this winter. Bowling off-spin in Australia is hard and I think they'll get men back on the hook and pepper him with the short ball when he bats. That won't be a secret so he better be prepared!

He'll boss it cos he's Moeen and he's boss

[ShahenshahG]

Be interesting to see how Moeen goes this winter. Bowling off-spin in Australia is hard and I think they'll get men back on the hook and pepper him with the short ball when he bats. That won't be a secret so he better be prepared!

He'll boss it cos he's Moeen and he's boss

I reckon he will get about 80 wickets because the aussies will be distracted by Nathan masturbating furiously in the background in anticipation of Moeen getting slaughtered

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Aussies aren't distracted by public masturbation unless you go a bit anal with it too.

Their equality vote results are around the 15th, could be an interesting political story to go alongside the series.

And, aside from that, who are BT's commentary team?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I wouldn’t be surprised if BT just pickup Channel 9’s feed tbh - I haven’t seen anything about them sending a comms team out there ala Sky

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Bloody BT. I suppose it's not a bad thing if you consider they hired Humphreys for the football.

Stephen Mulhern would be top of their list

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

It’s completely unrelated but I went to see Swanny/Blowers show tonight and it was top class - really good fun. If it’s near you soon I’d recommend going!

Interesting Swann was talking about his end of the test career and told Cook/Flower he couldn’t play the 1st test as he’d lost all feeling in his hands/fingers, and he still doesn’t have feeling in three fingers, due to his numerous elbow surgeries. He said the decision to retire mid series was brought on by him dropping his newborn daughter out of his arms and not even realising it cos he didn’t feel it...scary!

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

James Pattinson out of the Ashes series with yet another spine injury. Could be the end of him as international cricketer. Guess we won't be facing the 4 man pace battery...every cloud...in all seriousness sorry for the boy.

[LionsV2]

Time for the police to pull their finger out as it seems Strauss is willing to have Stokes go if the situation is dealt with in time, if he were a normal bloke on the street he'd have been cautioned without charge and it all be done with by now.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

James Pattinson out of the Ashes series with yet another spine injury. Could be the end of him as international cricketer. Guess we won't be facing the 4 man pace battery...every cloud...in all seriousness sorry for the boy.

Huge shame for him - but this is the problem with the Aussie pace men - they’re extremely fragile. It’s part of the reason why I think England have a real shot and proclamations of a 5-0 loss are well wide if the mark

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

James Pattinson out of the Ashes series with yet another spine injury. Could be the end of him as international cricketer. Guess we won't be facing the 4 man pace battery...every cloud...in all seriousness sorry for the boy.

Huge shame for him - but this is the problem with the Aussie pace men - they’re extremely fragile. It’s part of the reason why I think England have a real shot and proclamations of a 5-0 loss are well wide if the mark

Can't see any scenario where 5-0 is a realistic possibility to be brutally honest. Australia batting revolves 95% around Steven Smith and David Warner, if we get bot cheaply Australia will struggle to post 250. Guys like Handscombe and Renshaw seem decent prospects, but Khawaja, Maxwell and Wade are hardly gonna send fear down the spines of our bowlers. If we get Australia 20-2 they'll crumble

[alfie]

Interesting the range of views on likely results this Ashes series...

The dreaded 5-0 defeat still seems to be on the minds of a lot of England fans - and a number of pundits. Was listening to Dobell , Butcher and a few others discussing the tour in the light of Stokes' likely absence and was a little struck by the readiness to accept that Australia are unbeatable at home, even if England were at full strength. Didn't seem to be much consideration of Australian weaknesses ...and they do have a few. I guess the 2013 experience lingers...

Would be foolish to overlook the problems England have : top order batting is undeniably fragile , and for all Moeen's improvement they cannot match the locals in variety of attack : whatever combination of three fast bowlers and Lyon starts will have an advantage over England's basically right arm fast-medium x 4 plus modest spin.
But as some Aussie players have already acknowledged , the England middle order batting could be a huge weapon. Get in against an old ball and the Stokes Bairstow Moeen Woakes combination might make hay...or it might have until the Bristol fracas. Remove the first name and it isn't quite as fearsome...

Brisbane is the key , I think. Australia are so accustomed to sweeping opponents aside there that if England could somehow surprise them - or even escape with a "good" draw as in 2010 , it might knock their confidence for six. Means getting the right combination in place and firing from the off is vital ; they need to use the warm ups efficiently.
The big danger is that a heavy defeat at the Gabba tends to start a bit of an avalanche which is hard to stop with Tests so close together...as we saw last time. That (along with the fact that few draws are played in Australia these days ) is why five nil defeats can happen ; though I think last time around there were other factors at work - surprise loss of , first Trott and then Swann , team disharmony. I think it less likely this time even though the team is on paper an inferior outfit.

Do hope this Stokes business can be sorted. It has the potential to hang over the party like a dead albatross if it isn't resolved quickly , whether or not he actually ends up playing a part. Which would be a pity as I do feel there is a competitive series on offer , albeit between two teams each short of absolute top class.

[JDizzle]

It’s completely unrelated but I went to see Swanny/Blowers show tonight and it was top class - really good fun. If it’s near you soon I’d recommend going!

Interesting Swann was talking about his end of the test career and told Cook/Flower he couldn’t play the 1st test as he’d lost all feeling in his hands/fingers, and he still doesn’t have feeling in three fingers, due to his numerous elbow surgeries. He said the decision to retire mid series was brought on by him dropping his newborn daughter out of his arms and not even realising it cos he didn’t feel it...scary!

On a similar note, there was an excellent programme on BBC4 on Monday evening called 'Race and Pace' charting the history of West Indian overseas players in the Lancashire leagues. Only half and hour long, but should be on iPlayer and is worth a watch.

[Jetty]

Aussies aren't distracted by public masturbation unless you go a bit anal with it too.

Their equality vote results are around the 15th, could be an interesting political story to go alongside the series.

And, aside from that, who are BT's commentary team?

Greg James, Swann, Vaughan and Pietersen

[Gooseberry]

Would be foolish to overlook the problems England have : top order batting is undeniably fragile , and for all Moeen's improvement they cannot match the locals in variety of attack : whatever combination of three fast bowlers and Lyon starts will have an advantage over England's basically right arm fast-medium x 4 plus modest spin.
But as some Aussie players have already acknowledged , the England middle order batting could be a huge weapon. Get in against an old ball and the Stokes Bairstow Moeen Woakes combination might make hay...or it might have until the Bristol fracas. Remove the first name and it isn't quite as fearsome...

It would be but its Stokes that really made the difference there. Without him the next best they really have is Plunkett comin in at 9 and everyone else bumping up a spot. Should either he or Woakes get injured (which theres a fair chance) then really they are stuck with the same problem Aus have ...either you go with a short attack and rely on a lot of part time overs or you have no batting depth. Lets not forget the number 5 spot is hardly nailed down either, theres only 2 proven specialist bats in the side. Bairstows test batting form hasnt been great of late either, although hes really shown his ability in the one dayers.

Stokes was also the one England guy the Aussies really respected and know thrives in the kind of intense competitive atmosphere they like to create. His agression of course is also whats got him into so much trouble. Hes an enormous loss and one of the 3 key players for england. Theres noone that can step in a give the same balance to England and depth to their batting without seriously comprimising the bowling depth....and with two aging seniors theres no chance they will go with just 3 seamers.

The chances of his situation getting resolved before the tour is pretty much zero, and it will almost certainoly result in some kind of conviction given the severity of what happened. Even if it somehow got through trail before the tour, and assuming his lawyers and priveldge is enough to avoid jail, I can't see how they could select him in the short term.


Aus have their top and middle order issues too of course. So I dont think they are significantly if at all stronger with the bat despite Englands problems. The bowling though is surely the key difference, combine that with the relative morale and home advantage its hard to see past Aus. 5-0 whitewash ... Id be very dissapointed if it was and it would be down to more than just Stokes if that happened. But I really struuggle to see England winning unless the Aussie pace bowler continue to drop like flies.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Aussies aren't distracted by public masturbation unless you go a bit anal with it too.

Their equality vote results are around the 15th, could be an interesting political story to go alongside the series.

And, aside from that, who are BT's commentary team?

Greg James, Swann, Vaughan and Pietersen

Swann and KP on the same team?? That should be interesting considering how disparaging KP was in his book about Swann, and let’s say Swann wasn’t the most complimentary of KP on his tour on Tuesday night either....

[Duty281]

5-0 is a strong possibility, if Australia win the first test.

This is a mentally weak England side, led by an inexperienced captain.

With Ben Stokes not going (let’s face it; he won’t be), England will be going to the Gabba with about seven quality players.

4/7 that Australia win - get your life savings, pawn your jewellery and electrical items, remortgage your house etc. etc. and lump it all on Australia. England have about as much chance in this series as I do of striking a double-century at Lord’s.

[VTR]

Well Freddie Flintoff says we're sending our "best ever" team which includes our "best ever" bowler and "best ever" batsman. I think he's been drinking again

[Dolphin Ziggler]

If you think England have seven quality players then I'd back them if I were you. Australia don't.

[Gooseberry]

If you think England have seven quality players then I'd back them if I were you. Australia don't.

Im not sure Anderson in Aus counts as quality, he averages 38. That bumps them to 6, and no genuinely threatening spinner or paceman.

[Duty281]

If you think England have seven quality players then I'd back them if I were you. Australia don't.

Australia have about eight or nine. And home advantage.

4-1 or 5-0 to the home side; can’t see any draws in this series!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

eight or nine?? I'd be intrigued to know who they are!

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

eight or nine?? I'd be intrigued to know who they are!

TBH in home conditions Australia’s team is pretty decent. Even someone like Khawaja averages 60 odd on the flat pitches down under...

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Stokes departure for the Ashes delayed until some resolution is reached with the ongoing case. Bairstow, Plunkett and Ball fined as a result of the same incident. Disappointed that Stokes could now actually miss out

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Stokes departure for the Ashes delayed until some resolution is reached with the ongoing case. Bairstow, Plunkett and Ball fined as a result of the same incident. Disappointed that Stokes could now actually miss out

Sounds to me like they’re waiting on the police to make their call - you can’t really fly him out and then him find out he has a court hearing or something and has to fly back. The fact they haven’t ruled him out yet suggests to me he’ll play some part...

[Gooseberry]

Stokes departure for the Ashes delayed until some resolution is reached with the ongoing case. Bairstow, Plunkett and Ball fined as a result of the same incident. Disappointed that Stokes could now actually miss out

Sounds to me like they’re waiting on the police to make their call - you can’t really fly him out and then him find out he has a court hearing or something and has to fly back. The fact they haven’t ruled him out yet suggests to me he’ll play some part...

...if the PCS decide theres no case to answer which in light of the video would be a massive surprise.
I do think they are doing absolutely the fair and right thing though ...not prejudging that. Once its resolved they can fairly assess whether an actual suspension is required or not.

What I dont see happening is this quickly getting resolved with him convicted and given a slap on the wrist then flown out the next day to play in a test.

From an Englands chances perspective Im dissapointed hes not going. From a contextual point of view I cant see how he could, and the chances of this resolving in a way that wouldnt draw huge and justifiable heat are slim

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Finn going, somewhat fitting if you consider our depth of options.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

If stokes doesn’t play I’d imagine Overton will play and bat at 9, with Bairstow/Ali/Woakes all moving up one in the order.

[alfie]

If stokes doesn’t play I’d imagine Overton will play and bat at 9, with Bairstow/Ali/Woakes all moving up one in the order.

Logical.

Interesting that Finn - as well as Ball - is considered a better bet than Plunkett with the red ball in Australia. Not certain I'd agree ; though he did have a couple of decent games in 2010.

Not convinced they've given up on Stokes yet : think we still have to wait on the police action. My main fear is that all the uncertainty is going to weigh on the team ; and they really don't need any additional pressure. A quick resolution - either way - would be nice ; but we can't really expect the law to arrange itself around the cricket team's priorities...

[guildfordbat]

Plunkett only played two Championship matches for Yorks in 2017. I don't know why that was but it won't have helped his case for inclusion in the squad.

[Duty281]

eight or nine?? I'd be intrigued to know who they are!

Settled top and middle order, that averages highly in Australia. Excellent pace attack suited to the Australian wickets. Tidy off-spinner.

No contest.

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