Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

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Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 10 Sep 2017, 7:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

I was erring on the side of "too soon" when wondering whether to start this thread, but then I saw Olly had 12-fingered a "World Cup 2019" thread already and thought I was probably ok.

So, we move away from the West Indies and look at a trip Down Under to my second favourite country in the world; aye, we're heading to Australia for The Ashes.

And for us, there are many things to worry about. The top order hasn't really answered any questions firmly this summer: 3 of the top 5 could arguably count themselves lucky to be selected come November 23rd and a trip to Brisbane. It wouldn't be a surprise, given how things have gone, to see one of those dropped by the time we head to Adelaide for a day-nighter that will give those of us with jobs more of a chance to see some cricket!

There are questions in the bowling attack too, although you could be kind and say there's only one. Who is the other seamer? If Wood stays fit, surely he is the man to bring that real fizz that we'll need? But will he be fit? I know Oliver is sure of Woakes, and I do feel his strength with the bat could be useful with the shaky feeling about so many of the batsmen. One could also argue that it is how hard it is to really nail your colours to any of the options below the starting Xi that really keeps a less than inspiring (but still relatively well-performing) Stuart Broad away from much pressure.

Bayliss has said it's unlikely that any new faces will be picked. but with the amount of players England have got through lately, that still keeps us guessing somewhat.

Second spinner? Back-up wicket keeper? Where does Root bat and how does that change the side?

And what of Australia? I think it is safe to say that neither side is coming in with a classic XI on show. 

As I have confessed, I know by no means as much as pretty much anyone who comes to this part of the site, so enjoy reading and learning as we go. 

Go forth and predict your squad(s), XI(s) and discuss all and sundry whilst the words are meaningless and the rivalry brews.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 10:23 am

With the Aussie selections its seems theyve gone very much with form at the moment and made it clear to the squad  that they wont accept coasting and poor form. It does seem like this is a short term (panic?) selection for this series, but it should also act as a kick to the likes of Renshaw whos had a woeful Shield season. The comeptition for places maybe isnt that great but it doesnt mean they can just retain places regardless of performances.
S Marsh isnt a great cricketer by any stretch, but his record stacks up against the others whove been tried and hes scoring runs at the moment. Same too with Neville...maybe short term picks but they are the ones setting the bar of expectation that the men in hadnt been reaching.
The lack of an all ropunder is a big issue for the balance of the side...but one they were always going to face. Theres been a succession of players picked who simply werent good enough as bowlers and pretty medicore bats that havent given that balance, just left both disciplines short. With only 4 bowlers the expectation has the be that Aus will push for "results" wickets and short games, fast pitches that enable Starc to blow England away in the first 10 overs. England just dont have a proper fast or proper tall bowler to exploit tha in the way Aus can...but if they can get to 100 overs plus its going to put a very heavy load on the senior Aus bowlers that could tell over the series.
This is where the point about a top 3 that can occupy the crease comes in. Cook Strauss Trott used to get critisized for being too stodgy but England would kill for them in their prime right now (KP and Root at 4 5 would be a dream). As it is the openers look about as solid as they have since then, but the number 3 remains a distcinctly dodgy position with Vince shoehorned in through a lack of options.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by alfie on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 11:44 am

Must admit to being slightly surprised at the Australian selection...though I remember suggesting a few weeks back that a recall for S Marsh was not impossible (though he wouldn't have been my choice )
Paine was a keeper I expected to be a regular for Australia - six or seven years ago ! Not sure he is the ideal man to bring in now though : week or two back he couldn't even get in his State side...
I reckon he will be sound enough with the gloves but I am not sure he is quite a Haddin with the bat - let alone a Gilchrist.

Bancroft has been churning out runs in the Shield so the temptation to pick him for the out of form Renshaw was understandable and may prove a fine move - though you never know how a new player will take to Test Cricket (hence the term "Test")

All up it looks a slightly unbalanced squad with no real fifth bowling option ; but given the bowling is the strength of the team they should be OK barring injury.

I do have to say though that when you look at the two teams and count the numbers of actual proven Test players on each side it seems a little odd that the majority of posters have all but conceded the series to Australia in advance. Given they are at home it isn't unreasonable they should start favorites ; but I really don't think it would take much in the way of a few breaks going England's way to see that change.
When things go wrong for touring teams in Australia they can easily get steamrolled ; but if England can get a half decent start I see no reason why this shouldn't be a pretty close series.

Of course : getting a half decent start at the dreaded Gabba is easier said than done Smile

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 12:21 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Brisbane Times reports this is the likely Aussie squad for the 1st Test

Warner
Bancroft
Khawaja
Smith
Handscomb
S Marsh
TIM PAINE
Starc
Cummins
Hazlewood
Lyon

with Jackson Bird as 12th man.

TIM PAINE??? He last scored a Sheffield Shield century in 2006! And no Renshaw?? Shaun Marsh at 6???

If they're expecting to get through this series with only 3 seamers, my word...england might have more of a chance than i expected!

That's the squad the Aussies have gone with plus a 13th in Chadd Sayers. I hadn't heard of Sayers before today but apparently he's a 30 year old seamer  who can get movement under lights and so is likely to come under most consideration for the second Test which is a day-nighter on his home ground. If he does play then, it would seem a very much horses for courses selection. Nothing wrong with that but it does perhaps suggest there aren't too many other younger players with presumably a longer and more meaningful Test future hammering on the door.

The likely eleven for the first Test as flagged by Olly could do the business but seems some way short of those strength in depth Australian Test sides I can recall from both the recent and more distant past. I take Goose's point that their players need to display form and consistency in their Sheffield Shield  performances (I'm glad that tournament is still respected and its importance viewed highly unlike our own County Championship) to be sure of keeping their places. However, selectors do as well need at times to show confidence in and loyalty towards a quality player when he's in a temporary spell of poor form. I don't know enough about the players available to Australia to make a proper call about this squad selection but I do wonder if they've quite got it right.

The balance of the side also concerns me. In line with Olly and Goose's comments, the absence of a fifth bowler (in the Watson mode and as Mitch Marsh was mistakenly hoped to be) could be a problem for the hosts. If there is no one to properly fill that role, I fully accept that you shouldn't attempt to deal with it by the Pringle method (ie including someone at 6 who cannot bat or bowl) and that you really have to live with it for now. However, it is a problem and a solution should definitely be looked for.

PS and Edit:  Some similar themes here to Alfie's post which I hadn't seen when writing.


Last edited by guildfordbat on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 12:28 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Added PS.)

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by alfie on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 7:44 am

Probably fair to say the last day at Townsville didn't go entirely to script.

At first glance this was something of a setback for England : no result , no wickets for ages against a bunch of youngsters...cue the "toothless attack" headlines ...good old BBC will be right in Smile

But I note that nearly all of the last day bowling was entrusted to Moeen and Crane : first innings destroyer Woakes hardly used. (I guess it ought to kill any notion of two spinners stone dead anyway : a good thing too - Aussies feast on visiting spinners at home . Unless they are absolute superstars )

Suspect the flat pitch , warm conditions , and lack of any real incentive conspired to flatten them a bit : which is slightly disappointing in view of Root's stated desire to win all their games.  But I'm not sure it proves much about how they will go in Brisbane .

Certainly Moeen needed the bowl . Ideally he'd have had more by now but it is what it is.  The tricky one is Overton : he has decent figures on tour ; but comments I'm hearing suggest the management still fancies Ball despite his lack of lead up bowling - or indeed any imposing Test record.  Don't get me wrong : I think Ball looks a prospect . But I wouldn't say he's one who is ready to play a major role on a tour of Australia at this stage , especially on a hugely limited lead in ; and I'd be looking to see what Overton can do at least in this first game (despite his inability to survive even a few balls when batting )

Hope Broad has had the overs in his legs he needs : suspect he , Jimmy , and Woakes are going to have to do most of the damage at least in Brisbane. The other two seem to be fairly well tuned so if Moeen and Overton/Ball can at least supply a measure of control the bowling prospects don't look too bad...provided the batting doesn't fall in a heap.

First Test is always a tough one ; but judging by local reaction to the Australian selection the questions aren't limited to the touring team this time...

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Gooseberry on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 8:01 am

Yeah the only thing tintake from that last day is that England were more concerned with protecting the quicks than they were wiyh getting more batting time.

Ball vs Overton ....it could come down to Ball being a shade quicker. Englands attack really lacks bite, and Ball is the more senior of the two. But honestly I dont think either exactly stand out as "must pick" or potential stars of the tournament. Decent players but filler.
I completely agree on the two spinners thing. Picking Crane would be back to having a guy in the side whos only going to get used when things have already gone wrong....i just dont see Cook turning to him 20 overs into the first innings. Hes not that good a strike bowler and the aussies would relish in taking him on. Sure that can lead to sloppy wickets but Moeen already fills the "draw mistakes" role.
Its useful to know they have a plan C especially if Moeen gets injured but Malan and Root offer change options in the game. Crane is simply not good enough to justify messing the team balance up to shoehorn in.
England are short of truely threatening bolwers and will just have to make the best of the 4 seamers and moeen. Woakes does seem increasingly likely to take the opening strike bowlers role, hes had quite a gradual rise but is looking increasingly important to englands hopes.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by jimbohammers on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 9:05 am

Cook won't be turning to him that's for sure Goose....

Warm up match drawn. If you read BBC and other media you would think its crisis time! It was clearly a very flat wicket and clearly they have tried to prepare a pitch completely different to one they will face next week. Overreaction is ridiculous.

Id have Overton over Ball. At least for the first test anyway. He's had more overs under his belt and has taken wickets.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 9:59 am

The media have been a disgrace in the warm up, the BBC headline was “Malan century but England stutter” - we scored 515!! If we can stutter to that every time we’ll be doing alright!
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 10:45 am

guildfordbat wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Barring injury I am certain it'll be

Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Overton
Broad
Anderson

in Brisbane on 23rd November. Not a bad XI that for my money.

Olly - yep, agreed. I'm happy to stake your life on that being the team. Wink

Olly - with all the Overton or Ball talk, I'm getting a bit worried for you, pal. Very Happy

Was it a bad day at the office or merely a restful one? Maybe both? We'll have to see.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 11:30 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:The media have been a disgrace in the warm up, the BBC headline was “Malan century but England stutter” - we scored 515!! If we can stutter to that every time we’ll be doing alright!

Yes and it was laughable listening to the BBC report on Breakfast time actually saying they were lucky to escape with a draw? I don't know what they are on but it isn't condusive to smart reporting.
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 11:58 pm

So there’s rumours Stokes will be flying out to Aus soon

He also today put up an Instagram story at durham cricket where he is peeling stickers off loads of bats and running in off his full run up....
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by alfie on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 6:22 am

Interesting rumors , Olly. Have seen nothing myself but then I am not plugged in to all the wonderful modern methods of social connectedness Smile

If your Sources are correct it will add to the excitement around what I think anyway is a potentially intriguing series.

And no doubt have Australian conspiracy theorists calling for an investigation into Somerset and Avon Police Smile

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 12:03 pm

alfie wrote:Interesting rumors , Olly.  Have seen nothing myself but then I am not plugged in to all the wonderful modern methods of social connectedness Smile

If your Sources are correct it will add to the excitement around what I think anyway is a potentially intriguing series.

And no doubt have Australian conspiracy theorists calling for an investigation into Somerset and Avon Police Smile

Alfie - Olly is so well connected he'll probably hear before Stokes! Wink

All I've seen are press reports that a police decision is likely this week.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by James100 on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 12:11 pm

For some perspective on Stokes rumours, Mike Selvey on twitter -

"I think people are jumping the gun re Stokes. Lot to get through before he gets the all -clear."

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 4:18 pm

Taking nothing away from Olly's social connections but online press reports today seem to downplay Stokes' chances of getting out to Australia anytime soon.

Even if the police don't pursue charges, it seems he'll then face an investigation by the ECB into the Bristol incident. The ECB have apparently delayed this so as not to potentially prejudice any criminal case. I can understand that although the ongoing failure to reach a final decision is bl**dy frustrating for all.

Meanwhile, Ball is said to be ahead of Overton in the pecking order and expected to play in the first Test although Crane hasn't yet been ruled out of contention.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by alfie on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 11:24 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Taking nothing away from Olly's social connections but online press reports today seem to downplay Stokes' chances of getting out to Australia anytime soon.

Even if the police don't pursue charges, it seems he'll then face an investigation by the ECB into the Bristol incident. The ECB have apparently delayed this so as not to potentially prejudice any criminal case. I can understand that although the ongoing failure to reach a final decision is bl**dy frustrating for all.

Meanwhile, Ball is said to be ahead of Overton in the pecking order and expected to play in the first Test although Crane hasn't yet been ruled out of contention.

You have got to be joking about Crane ! The Aussies eat mediocre - or just inexperienced - leg spinners for breakfast. If England go in with three seamers plus two spinners (who couldn't bowl out a bunch of youthful fringe first class bats just the other day ) on a typical Gabba pitch ; well I really will start to believe Bayliss is using the tour as a development class instead of trying to win the Ashes...

Feel for Overton a bit ; but if they really think Ball is a better bet he must be showing them something serious in the nets !

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 11:56 pm

Hi Alfie - Nick Hoult (who happens to be one of the cricket pundits that Olly follows on twitter) has been talking up Crane's chances in The Telegraph. That said, he still puts Ball ahead for the opening Test, particularly with the chance of some rain about.

It's also suggested by Hoult that Bairstow will stay at number 7 in the order with Moeen leapfrogging to 6. Hmmm.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by dummy_half on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 7:26 am

Don't mind the suggestion of keeping YJB at 7, where he has batted really well in the last couple of years. Moeen has said he wants a chance to bat higher up, and so it's an opportunity to prove himself in a position where regular runs are needed (I think at 8 he gets a slightly easy ride for some failures).

Woakes is certainly good enough to bat at 8 (I actually quite liked Aggers suggestion of him opening, as he appears to have sound technique - OK, with Stoneman having come in, that option isn't needed at the moment).

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by LionsV2 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 8:06 am

Nathan Lyon, what a clown.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by sirfredperry on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 8:35 am

LionsV2 wrote:Nathan Lyon, what a clown.
Just when you thought Australia had finally finished talking ahead of the First Test we have this nonsense from Lyon. Given Aus's extraordinary selections and their patchy form of late, they should be keeping quiet and letting their cricket do the talking.
   The England team are no great shakes, particularly without Stokes and Aus are favourites at Brisbane. But I just wonder whether we might see a 1986-87-type surprise this weekend.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by GSC on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 8:37 am

All this trash talking feels a bit half hearted to me. It's all a bit unnecessary, it's cricket at the end of the day not football
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by GSC on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 9:00 am

It is good to see Warner taking a strong stance on drunken fights during a night out though.
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 9:28 am

If Moeen is being picked as a part time spinner he should bat higher yes. But picking Crane as others have pointed out seems ridiculous. Even bringing him on tour at all was a stretch.
Is he a significantly better wicket taking threat or significantly more economical that Moeen? At this level on these pitches Id doubt that. And losing a seamer means increased load on the 3, with the series in mind youd have to be sure you were really gaining a lot form sticking a non batting specialist spinner in. Crane is a long way from a Shane Warne at this point and it seems frankly bonkers.
With Stokes there would be more flexibility for a 6th bowler and to include him.
Englands experiements with playing endless bowlers and multiple sinners have pretty much universally ended in failure, but the confussion ovcer what to do with Moeen continues.
If the doenst trust himself and the team dont want him as a frontline spinenr then thats a real problem for me. He has to bat in the top order to justify a place in that case, and his record as a batsman only earns him that based on the failures of others. 
Then we get into the Bairstow argument ... hes the third best batsman England have...but has made better scores down the order. England are going to have a longer tail than usual in thsi test though. After Woakes theres not a great deal of batting, whereas Bairstow coming in at 7 with Moeen and Woakes after him meant he had good support to build an innings with. Coming in at 7 with just Waokes and then some pretty average batters (espcially if Ball or Crane get in) means theres a risk of him getting stranded and having to look to hog the strike rather than playing balls on merit.
Personaly Id rather see at 6 with Moeen 7 as the sole spinner.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 9:56 am

I agree with the majority here - Bairstow has to be at 6, with Moeen at 7 and Woakes 8. As much as I like Moeen, it'd be an utter nonsense for him to be batting ahead of YJB, especially because as Goose rather crucially notes, we'd only really have Woakes below him to offer support. YJB is our second best bat (I'd say he's better than Cook atm), to have him constantly left stranded and shepherding the tail is a complete waste of his ability!

As for Lyon's comments - remember when all the Aussies were going to become more sombre and cut out all this nonsense when Phil Hughes died three years ago because "cricket is just a game"? Looks like they took that seriously. Utter idiots

As for the Ball/Overton debate - it might be harsh on Overton, but if Ball is fully fit I can see the logic. The deciding factor in the debate we would've thought might have been Overton's extra ability with the bat, but seeing as he's currently on three ducks in a row, it's a straight shootout between their bowling ability - and to be honest there's not much difference either way in their bowling. By all accounts Ball was bowling well before his injury too.
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by LionsV2 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 10:06 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
As for Lyon's comments - remember when all the Aussies were going to become more sombre and cut out all this nonsense when Phil Hughes died three years ago because "cricket is just a game"? Looks like they took that seriously. Utter idiots

My thoughts exactly, I can understand the mouthing of when it comes to Rugby or Football but it just comes across as childish when it's Cricket.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by compelling and rich on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 10:06 am

the more the aussies keep talking the more confident im becoming. their currently the small dog that has to yap at everything because their nervous. still expecting a tough series and the aussies are still favorite purely through their attack but feeling now it will be tight at least

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by The Loaded Dog on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 11:15 am

LionsV2 wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
As for Lyon's comments - remember when all the Aussies were going to become more sombre and cut out all this nonsense when Phil Hughes died three years ago because "cricket is just a game"? Looks like they took that seriously. Utter idiots

My thoughts exactly, I can understand the mouthing of when it comes to Rugby or Football but it just comes across as childish when it's Cricket.

Ditto.

I'm surprised to hear Lyon talk like that. Thought he was a bit more of an old fashioned, quiet and respectful character. It makes me very ashamed that they have to carry on in this juvenile manner in order to get some sort of 'advantage' over England.

I would have thought the best way would have been to keep a low profile, work hard in the nets, don't give anything away to the press... and just get out there and perform as required. This sort of behaviour can only heap a lot more unnecessary pressure on themselves should things not go to script on the field.
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by alfie on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 11:16 am

guildfordbat wrote:Hi Alfie - Nick Hoult (who happens to be one of the cricket pundits that Olly follows on twitter) has been talking up Crane's chances in The Telegraph. That said, he still puts Ball ahead for the opening Test, particularly with the chance of some rain about.

It's also suggested by Hoult that Bairstow will stay at number 7 in the order with Moeen leapfrogging to 6. Hmmm.

Hmm indeed. Moeen's figures at six are pretty awful ; but that may be a statistical anomaly . Could also consider Woakes at six - I like his technique - if they want to keep YJB at his apparently preferred seven. Not sure it matters all that much , they're all capable enough bats. (I don't worry about Bairstow being left with the tail : he bats quite well with the tail - which is a handy skill to have)

I reckon any talk of Crane is just trying to confuse the Aussies Smile

Don't think Bayliss is completely nuts.

If Ball does play , on zero match evidence , he will be on notice to produce something ! I actually liked what I saw of him in his debut Test ; but he really hasn't shown anything concrete yet.

Be a nice time for him to do so...

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by alfie on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 11:22 am

Like the Dog , I was bemused to see Lyon of all people quoted trash talking like that.
Always had him down as a man who lets his actions speak for him.

Is this a "plan" ? If it is , whose (silly) idea is it ? Can't see the point : all you do with this is give your opponent extra motivation ...unless they are so cowed already that they are ready to fold ; in which case you don't need it anyway...

Subtracts a bit from the essential dignity of Test Cricket , I think.

But maybe I'm just hopelessly old fashioned...

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by The Loaded Dog on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 11:54 am

Yeah alfie. I always loved watching that Bradman speech on the docks in '48... such a gentleman and full of dignity and respect for the opposition. He even got a hearty applause from the media of the day.

I think the shift in manners occurred some time in the 70s or 80s when dress standards became more loose* and there was a corresponding emergence of more aggressive players spurred on by the media and the prospect of more money in the professional era.

It's one thing to be confident in one's ability but somehow it transgressed into over-confidence, crude arrogance and just sheer plain nastiness.
Add some generous amounts of ignorance and stupidity and you have what we are experiencing today by certain unlikable characters.

*  I blame Thommo for starting it. The Australians are more responsible for this sort of vulgar and crass behaviour.
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 12:22 pm

I think that they’re having a laugh with the media (and apparently the public too) who get suckered in. The Aussies I know find it all quite funny, and all the 5-0 stuff is always with a smile.

What I think he’s saying is we want to really beat them. Seems about as dry as most Aussies I’ve met

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by superflyweight on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 12:45 pm

There seems to be a lot of harking back to what happened on the last tour and the claim that the fear of pace bowling 'retired' a few of the English players.  It seems a pointless thing to bring up given that the bowler who did all the damage has gone and that England's batting line up has changed.  

The issue with Johnson wasn't just pace, it was pace allied with an action that meant that when he was on form, the batsmen couldn't see the ball all the way through that action.  That's what spooked them.  

As fast as they are, the same issue doesn't apply with Starc and Cummins.  The batsmen might still get done by pace, but fear shouldn't come into it.  

Brett Lee and Shoaib Akhtar didn't spread the kind of panic that the Australians are predicting.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 3:20 pm

alfie wrote:Like the Dog , I was bemused to see Lyon of all people quoted trash talking like that.
Always had him down as a man who lets his actions speak for him.

Is this a "plan" ?  If it is , whose (silly) idea is it ?  Can't see the point : all you do with this is give your opponent extra motivation ...unless they are so cowed already that they are ready to fold ; in which case you don't need it anyway...

Subtracts a bit from the essential dignity of Test Cricket , I think.

But maybe I'm just hopelessly old fashioned...

Alfie - maybe you are but I'm pleased to say you are not totally on your own. Two months ago to the day, I went to Surrey's End of Season Awards Night. Kumar Sangakkara won almost every award going and delivered a speech which I then described as rousing, humbling and humorous.

In what was during Sanga's penultimate first class game, he particularly emphasised the importance of each player leaving the club in a stronger position than when that player joined. He referred very eloquently to the legacy of the club and each player being a torch bearer of that legacy. It was actually quite emotional, even for an old grouch like me, and all the more so for being so clearly heartfelt.

Whilst Sanga was talking about Surrey, his comments could have related to any county or international side. Why I like him so much is that, as here, he so often sets the perfect example in what he does and says. I only hope more will take note.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by dummy_half on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 3:34 pm

GB

The difference is that Sanga is an eloquent gentleman. Lyon and Warner...well, let's just say that I can't see either being invited to give a Cowdrey lecture

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 4:05 pm

Dummy,

Sure but even for the less eloquent there's something to be said for keeping your mouth shut and letting people think you're a fool instead of opening your mouth and proving it.

Like others here, I'm actually surprised to see Lyon involved in this sort of thing. I thought he was above that.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 4:21 pm

I do think you may all be being played here.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by dummy_half on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 5:19 pm

GB

I don't disagree at all - I've always thought it a stupid act to give your opponents their team talk material. I remember Austin Healey being mouthy against the Aussies during a Lions tour, and the guy he criticised (iirc, Justin Harrison, who he called 'a plank') coming up with a match-saving bit of play in the deciding match.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by LionsV2 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 5:55 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I do think you may all be being played here.

Not really, whatever the excuse is doesn't make the comments at all acceptable.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by The Loaded Dog on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 6:48 am

Jake Ball has got the nod ahead of Overton and it looks like Moeen will bat at 6, Bairstow at 7.

Glenn Maxwell has been called up to cover for either Warner (who should be OK) and Shaun Marsh who apparently hurt his back (again?) today at training.
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 9:29 am

OK at least the daftest team selection possible hasnt happened. Im not overly keen on Ball, certainly his international record to date doesnt suggest hes anythuing special...but if hes going to do it it should be on the quicker bouncier wickets and he should exploit them better than Overton whos more of a home series bowler to me. 
Arguments regarding Moeen and Birstow are above, but really as with the 4th seamer its a marginal call. Moeen is good enough to bat 6, and England will have significantly better bats in the lower middle than Aus regardless.

Both of these are side issues really, for England things really hinge on the top 5 being capable of making runs. Stoneman and Malan have shown form, Cook and Root are good enough. Theres hope they will do better than the more experienced lot did last time around.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by dummy_half on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 10:34 am

Gooseberry wrote:OK at least the daftest team selection possible hasnt happened. Im not overly keen on Ball, certainly his international record to date doesnt suggest hes anythuing special...but if hes going to do it it should be on the quicker bouncier wickets and he should exploit them better than Overton whos more of a home series bowler to me. 
Arguments regarding Moeen and Birstow are above, but really as with the 4th seamer its a marginal call. Moeen is good enough to bat 6, and England will have significantly better bats in the lower middle than Aus regardless.

Both of these are side issues really, for England things really hinge on the top 5 being capable of making runs. Stoneman and Malan have shown form, Cook and Root are good enough. Theres hope they will do better than the more experienced lot did last time around.

This is key, together with our seamers getting enough out of these Aussie wickets. I'm probably more concerned about Broad's form than the Ball / Overton decision.

Moeen and YJB at 6/7 is also really a coin toss - both have shown themselves well capable of batting with the tail and adding those quick 75-100 runs in partnerships with 9-11. My thought is that moving Moeen two spots up and leaving Bairstow at 7 appeared less disruptive than shuffling both up 1 spot.

Obviously, should Stokes become available, both the 6/7 batting and 4th seamer questions become moot. Newspapers weem to be split on whether thisis looking likely in the foreseeable future, with the main concern how long any ECB investigation might take if the police / CPS don't press charges.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 10:38 am

LionsV2 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I do think you may all be being played here.

Not really, whatever the excuse is doesn't make the comments at all acceptable.

Acceptable? Bit delicate, arent you?

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by LionsV2 on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 10:42 am

It's cricket not WWE.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by jimbohammers on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 11:09 am

The Loaded Dog wrote:Jake Ball has got the nod ahead of Overton and it looks like Moeen will bat at 6, Bairstow at 7.

Glenn Maxwell has been called up to cover for either Warner (who should be OK) and Shaun Marsh who apparently hurt his back (again?) today at training.

Quite surprised at Ball ahead of Overton. (Also buggars me for your prediction game, LD!)

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by alfie on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 11:56 am

With all the chatter around it is hardly a surprise.

It does seem a little illogical though given his lack of match practice and Overton's reasonably decent record in the warm ups. Not as if he has a fantastic Test record : average of 114 at the moment ; and not with the bat Smile

Hopefully they know what they're doing.

My Queensland contacts tell me there could be some rain about this week. But not expected to limit the playing hours by much - though it might help England's bowlers a bit.

Tomorrow no more talk...

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 11:58 am

If Warner wakes up with his dicky neck, are Australia really going to bat Maxwell as an opener? Maxwell has an abundance of talent but I’ve never really seen him willing to deviate from his hero or zero batting style.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by The Loaded Dog on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 12:13 pm

jimbohammers wrote:
The Loaded Dog wrote:Jake Ball has got the nod ahead of Overton and it looks like Moeen will bat at 6, Bairstow at 7.

Glenn Maxwell has been called up to cover for either Warner (who should be OK) and Shaun Marsh who apparently hurt his back (again?) today at training.

Quite surprised at Ball ahead of Overton. (Also buggars me for your prediction game, LD!)

I left a post for you on that thread, jimbo... you need to select someone else. Still plenty of time. Quite dark here now though Wink
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by The Loaded Dog on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 12:23 pm

alfie wrote:

My Queensland contacts tell me there could be some rain about this week.  But not expected to limit the playing hours by much - though it might help England's bowlers a bit.

Tomorrow no more talk...

Yes, the latest weather news is for a 'weak' La Nina from December north of Sydney all the way up the east coast of Qld. The weather here is also a bit unsettled now unlike for you down south right now. 2-3 degrees below average, more humid so it doesn't feel cold (unless you're from Qld!)

Funny... we had quite hot (high 20s to high 30s) dry weather in Sept/Oct (1.2mm rain in 75 days or so) but things changed about 2-3 weeks ago.

Even though there is rain expected on most days in and around Brisbane I don't think it will be too much.
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 1:00 pm

Okay here are my thoughts ahead of the Ashes Series.

It was and is a big blow for England to lose Stokes - there can be no denying that. However, I am very surprised by the amount of pundits predicting a heavy series win for Australia and Aussie crickets sounding off. That over-confidence may come back to bite them very hard.

England go into the Ashes Series having to regroup after the loss of Stokes but they do go in on a good vein of form and with real motivation - much of that provided by Australian cricketers pre-series comments. To me it is clear Australia are somewhat in disarray. They have not been in anything like great form for sometime, the selectors have made some very odd selections and are being panned for it and there are a lot of new faces in the team still finding their way in test cricket.

I can see England coming out of the series with a 2-1 win - maybe even 3-1. Enjoy the series everyone.
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Duty281 on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 1:09 pm

Final thoughts ahead of the series: England to get absolutely smashed in Brisbane and Perth, where they have an atrocious record at both grounds, as part of a 5-0 thumping.

Root's team might squeeze out a victory in a probable low-scoring test at Adelaide; that certainly seems to be their best chance.

I can't see many of the tests going into the fifth day, unless weather plays a part.

Should be a good series. I hope BT Sport do a decent job of it. And I hope I'm wrong about the result!

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 5:45 pm

Predictions:

A lot of people are going to be terribly offended by words

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