Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

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Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 10 Sep 2017, 7:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

I was erring on the side of "too soon" when wondering whether to start this thread, but then I saw Olly had 12-fingered a "World Cup 2019" thread already and thought I was probably ok.

So, we move away from the West Indies and look at a trip Down Under to my second favourite country in the world; aye, we're heading to Australia for The Ashes.

And for us, there are many things to worry about. The top order hasn't really answered any questions firmly this summer: 3 of the top 5 could arguably count themselves lucky to be selected come November 23rd and a trip to Brisbane. It wouldn't be a surprise, given how things have gone, to see one of those dropped by the time we head to Adelaide for a day-nighter that will give those of us with jobs more of a chance to see some cricket!

There are questions in the bowling attack too, although you could be kind and say there's only one. Who is the other seamer? If Wood stays fit, surely he is the man to bring that real fizz that we'll need? But will he be fit? I know Oliver is sure of Woakes, and I do feel his strength with the bat could be useful with the shaky feeling about so many of the batsmen. One could also argue that it is how hard it is to really nail your colours to any of the options below the starting Xi that really keeps a less than inspiring (but still relatively well-performing) Stuart Broad away from much pressure.

Bayliss has said it's unlikely that any new faces will be picked. but with the amount of players England have got through lately, that still keeps us guessing somewhat.

Second spinner? Back-up wicket keeper? Where does Root bat and how does that change the side?

And what of Australia? I think it is safe to say that neither side is coming in with a classic XI on show. 

As I have confessed, I know by no means as much as pretty much anyone who comes to this part of the site, so enjoy reading and learning as we go. 

Go forth and predict your squad(s), XI(s) and discuss all and sundry whilst the words are meaningless and the rivalry brews.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by LivinginItaly on Thu 14 Sep 2017, 2:44 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:#hameedwatch

31 not out off 117 balls at lunch

#hameedwatch update

53 not out off 157 balls

Out now for 62.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 7:25 pm

Not much for me to add at the moment.  Other than to agree very strongly with several others that it's a strength not a weaknesses if good batsmen are batting "too low" in England's order. Think how many times over the years England have been frustrated by failure to bowl out the lower order of other teams - can't imagine those countries' selectors puzzling over how they can best weaken their lower middle order! If we have to keep batting Broad at No 10 for the rest of his career - good!

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 21 Sep 2017, 11:40 am

#hameedwatch

DISASTER.

He has taken a blow to the hand and is retiring hurt. Eek
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Duty281 on Thu 21 Sep 2017, 3:28 pm

Finn 8/79 against Lancashire in a tight chase...enough for him to force his way into the selectors' thinking.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 21 Sep 2017, 3:48 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:#hameedwatch

DISASTER.

He has taken a blow to the hand and is retiring hurt. Eek

Lancs confirm he has a fractured finger on his right hand.

That may spell the end of his ashes chances
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 9:39 am

Squad to be revealed next Wednesday
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by dummy_half on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 9:53 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:#hameedwatch

DISASTER.

He has taken a blow to the hand and is retiring hurt. Eek

So does this mean Jennings will be back in as the back up opener, or do we now look at Hales as a potential back-up for the entire top order?

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 10:46 am

dummy_half wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:#hameedwatch

DISASTER.

He has taken a blow to the hand and is retiring hurt. Eek

So does this mean Jennings will be back in as the back up opener, or do we now look at Hales as a potential back-up for the entire top order?

I'm not sure, because Jennings has gone back to Durham and had a horrible time of it. Scores of 0, 16, 17, 13, 6 and he's currently 7* - can they really pick him when he's so clearly not in form?
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by alfie on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 11:56 am

Surely they couldn't pick Jennings ? The RSPCA would not allow him to be thrown to the Australian fast bowlers at the Gabba...

Robson ? Browne ? What about your Other Surrey Opener ?

Hopefully Cook and Stoneman will form an unbreakable pairing. But they do need a spare - to serve as a number three alternate also.

Hales may well travel ; but I think he - and we - would prefer he did so as a potential five.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 4:27 pm

Just heard on the radio - Middlesex have announced that Toby Roland Jones has a stress fracture of the lower back and misses their last Championship match of the season next week.

Nothing apparently said about how long it will, or is expected to, take him to recover but that is clearly is not good news for England. [Particularly, as I'm not convinced about Woakes' fitness.]

Ashes squad expected to be announced on Wednesday next week.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 4:33 pm

There's no way he'll recover from a stress fracture of the back in time for the Ashes - such a shame for the poor bloke
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 6:04 pm

I think now TRJ is out you take guys like Finn/Plunkett as drinks carriers and let youngsters like Porter, Overton, Curran etc play with the Lions - not much point it being the other way round

After watching Jack Leach play twice this year he shouldn't anywhere near the squad
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Duty281 on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 6:20 pm

England's chances being hit even further, then.

Get on the 8/13 for Australia to win; an absolute gold-plated gift of epic proportions.

Advance Australia fair, indeed...

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by alfie on Sat 23 Sep 2017, 5:50 am

Australia are always very hard to defeat at home ; but this Australian team is nothing special : they are still beatable.

It is a huge pity TRJ won't , presumably , be an option. But in truth most people probably had an attack of Anderson Broad Woakes Stokes and Ali as the likely number one choice anyway.

Get the batting right (OK : calls for one or two players to grow on tour !) and the job can still be done.

Finn and Plunkett now looking quite likely , with Wood still doubtful. At least they have experience of the conditions...

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by sirfredperry on Sat 23 Sep 2017, 10:31 am

Seen a bit of Steve Finn this season and he's not been all that special. However, he has just taken eight in an innings (albeit on a dodgy track), does have pace and has toured Australia before. He'll probably get the nod.
   All the county cricket I've seen this season has been Div 1 stuff. Frankly, the bowling has not been great. One who did impress me, though, was Porter of Essex.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 24 Sep 2017, 1:31 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:#hameedwatch

DISASTER.

He has taken a blow to the hand and is retiring hurt. Eek

Lancs confirm he has a fractured finger on his right hand.

That may spell the end of his ashes chances

Latest doesn't sound great.

Lancs have stated today that Hameed suffered a fracture of the middle finger of his right hand and underwent surgery the next day. They add that he will be monitored on a regular and ongoing basis until he recovers full function and returns to batting. No expected date is given although he's clearly out of their final Championship match starting tomorrow.

Mrs Bat (who knows more about these things) thinks it must have been pretty bad to require surgery so soon. Tape and time normally being the way.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by alfie on Sun 24 Sep 2017, 2:00 pm

Given the troubles he's had coming back from the first hand injury ( he seems to be making a habit of this ! Was it Nasser Hussain who used to always get finger injuries?). I'd reckon they will tell him to put his feet up until next summer.
Pity ; but Australia might have come too early for him anyway this time. He's young enough that he'll have plenty of time to make his mark - which I still believe he will.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 8:24 am

Suggestions Vince and Craig Overton will be the surprise squad selections - Finn to miss out for Overton and Ball to replace TRJ

Overton impressed me when I saw Somerset play Essex in august - very Broad-esque imo
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by dummy_half on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 1:48 pm

Alfie

You're right that Nasser was a bad one for breaking fingers - tended to play quite low especially back foot defensive shots so anything that bounced tended to get his bottom hand. I think Robin Smith broke a few fingers too - mainly of the point fielder Wink

Is Plunkett not seen as a viable red ball option? He's been bowling so well in the ODI stuff and his style should suit Aussie conditions - a good pace, hits the deck and gets bounce and a bit of seam movement. Would surely be a handy back up to Broad at least. If Wood is fit I'd have him in the squad but we will still need another seamer for cover / squad rotation and I'm not persuaded that the likes of Ball or Finn (as now bowling)

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by alfie on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 2:58 pm

Hi dummy_half

I like Plunkett. He does look the type that might do well on Australian pitches - and if it were up to me I'd probably take him , with TRJ and possibly Wood injury non-starters.
He's been around for a while : looked lively on debut (around 2006 ?) but rather lost his way...his actual Test figures aren't much . But you could argue he is a rather better bowler now - certainly he seems very reliable in limited overs matches.
Assuming no Wood I'd imagine the last two spots are between Finn , Plunkett, Overton and Ball. Just possibly Porter ?


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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by dummy_half on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 3:57 pm

Alfie

Wood is playing in Durham's game this week, so provided he comes through safe he has to be considered fit for selection.

Porter would be the form pick but obviously has no history at international level. My perception is that he's not quick enough for Australian conditions and relies on lateral movement (same can be argued for Coad from Yorkshire, who is probably one or two further down the pecking order). I can't see the selectors going there in preference to those who have played for England in either Tests or ODIs in the last few months.

Plunkett's test career, such as it's been, hasn't been outstanding, but neither is it disastrous, and it's certainly arguable that he's a better bowler now than 5 years ago. He has though played little red ball cricket over the last couple of seasons. I'd certainly have him well in the discussions for 5th / 6th seamer, especially given that he's a half decent lower order batsman too.

My feeling is that Plunkett probably should make the squad as a back up - I'd have more confidence calling him into the side at short notice than I would Finn or Ball, especially as part of a 4 seamer + 1 spinner attack. Tell him to go out and just bowl quick and straight, like he does in the ODIs.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 4:19 pm

Tom Westley was out for 13 this morning, caught off the glove. Worse possible news for him though is that he's gone to hospital for an X-ray on his right thumb.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by LivinginItaly on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 4:32 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Tom Westley was out for 13 this morning, caught off the glove. Worse possible news for him though is that he's gone to hospital for an X-ray on his right thumb.

Looking on the bright side it could help the selectors decision making!!!

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 5:31 pm

Jack Leach is going to take a bagful this week

Be smart and remember his performance on an actual wicket at The Oval last week

Product of Somerset deciding to produce worse wickets than you get in the sub continent
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 5:44 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Jack Leach is going to take a bagful this week

Be smart and remember his performance on an actual wicket at The Oval last week

Product of Somerset deciding to produce worse wickets than you get in the sub continent

+1.

Of him and Dom Bess, the latter was Somerset's more effective spinner at the Oval last week.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Afro on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 6:19 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Jack Leach is going to take a bagful this week

Be smart and remember his performance on an actual wicket at The Oval last week

Product of Somerset deciding to produce worse wickets than you get in the sub continent

Oval wicket is almost the opposite though, batsmans paradise. Number of Surrey draws is testament to that.

I would judge Leach on more than this week and last. He's been quality for a while now.
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 7:48 pm

When I saw him at Essex he was also poor - Bess looked a lot better player to my (albeit untrained) eye
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 9:24 pm

What are the thoughts on Vince? Seems to push Hales out of some people's thinking?

I don't know much of Overton, but would like Ball to go. Do they have to have a limit on the squad? Can they only take a certain amount? Can't see why you don't take Plunkett and Wood, unless they don't wanna travel with less hope

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Afro on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 9:46 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:When I saw him at Essex he was also poor - Bess looked a lot better player to my (albeit untrained) eye

He's not good enough for England as some have been calling for, but horses for courses he has taken plenty of wickets at Taunton. Not as good away from there this year tbh.

Bess could be a contender for England in the future, but I would go for Rashid at the moment.
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Afro on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 9:47 pm

Overton looks made for Aussie pitches and would be good cover for Broad. With him, his brother and Gregory we could have a really high quality seam attack in a couple of years
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 25 Sep 2017, 9:59 pm

Afro wrote:Overton looks made for Aussie pitches and would be good cover for Broad. With him, his brother and Gregory we could have a really high quality seam attack in a couple of years

Agree with this - Overton reminded me a bit of Broad - tall, seemed to hit the pitch hard, and get movement off the seam. He's also got a little bit of edge too him, he wants to get into the batsmen. I like that in a tall seam bowler. He's also a fairly handy lower order bat too!

There was talk of Jamie Overton being in the plans for the winter before he broke down early this season, which has obviously put pay to any ideas they had their.
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Afro on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 9:28 am

Jamie is a bit quicker, and more a bowler, whereas Craig is more an allrounder who plays proper cricket shots whereas Jamie is a hitter.

Remains to be seen if Jamie continues to suffer from problems with his back. Same for Gregory
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by VTR on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 9:31 am

All I want to know is who the 2% of people on the BBC poll are that didn't include Joe Root in their team!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41366988


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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Afro on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 9:37 am

VTR wrote:All I want to know is who the 2% of people on the BBC poll are that didn't include Joe Root in their team!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41366988


Laugh That was my first thought too. Same with Ben Stokes!
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Afro on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 9:38 am

VTR wrote:All I want to know is who the 2% of people on the BBC poll are that didn't include Joe Root in their team!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41366988


I've just worked it out. Only one person took the survey, and it was David Warner
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by alfie on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 11:44 am

Had a few laughs at the "survey". But I guess most of the highest rated dozen will go so "the wisdom of the masses" was not that far off...

Squad out tomorrow , they say : but there seem to be a lot of unsettled matters - fitness issues complicating the picture.

I note that Wood is playing for Durham at the moment - and glad to see it. But even if he comes through the match OK I am not sure that would constitute enough evidence that his body is going to stand up to a tour of Australia. At his best , Wood might be a force. But we've seen none of that this season ; so I'm inclined towards Plunkett who at least seems guaranteed to be up to bowling fast come the Gabba...

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by alfie on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 11:52 am

As for the batting spots : throw a dart at the board ? Westley no sure thing , and apparently an injury now...Ballance uninspiring , Jennings surely unselectable , Malan still a bit to prove and Hales offering promise but with a bit of a record of not delivering...
Hope they get lucky with the picks.

As for spin I still reckon Dawson is more likely to travel as cover for Moeen rather than any of the more "exotic" candidates . The Lions will be a better place for the likes of Crane Leach Rashid ... Virtually no chance of England playing two spinners in Australia so why take them to bowl in nets ?

And if Foakes hasn't earned his spot over Buttler I give up.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Afro on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 12:08 pm

Afro wrote:
VTR wrote:All I want to know is who the 2% of people on the BBC poll are that didn't include Joe Root in their team!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41366988


I've just worked it out. Only one person took the survey, and it was David Warner

Just realised that doesn't work..... Erm

50 people took the survey, and one of them was David Warner makes much more sense
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 12:35 pm

Hales and Stokes not at nets today and rumours of an ECB statement coming soon...........
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by GSC on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 12:42 pm

Either they've had a fight and/or they went out on the lash.
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Afro on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 12:46 pm

Or they've got together and are coming out as a couple
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 12:48 pm

Maybe they've suspended their twitter accounts?
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 1:22 pm

Stokes was arrested and released without charge after a scuffle in Bristol early hours of Monday morning - Hales just giving witness statements it seems

Never dull with Ben around!
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by GSC on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 1:27 pm

What a prat.
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 1:34 pm

Police essentially say he lamped someone

Silly boy
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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by VTR on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 4:25 pm

Afro wrote:
Afro wrote:
VTR wrote:All I want to know is who the 2% of people on the BBC poll are that didn't include Joe Root in their team!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41366988


I've just worked it out. Only one person took the survey, and it was David Warner

Just realised that doesn't work..... Erm

50 people took the survey, and one of them was David Warner makes much more sense

I think they had 150,000 responses. So it's David Warner, plus 2,999 others!

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by JDizzle on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 9:06 pm

Gossip: Foakes, Vince, Overton, Crane, Ballance all in.

No Wood, Hales or Westley.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by JDizzle on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 9:08 pm

Full squad - apparently:

Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root (capt), Malan, Ballance, Stokes, Bairstow (wkt), Foakes (wkt), Moeen, Crane, Woakes, Broad, Anderson, Ball, C.Overton.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 9:33 pm

Wood must be fitness, and I think that guarantees a place in the XI for Woakes.

Shame about Hales, would have liked to have seen that.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

Post by JDizzle on Tue 26 Sep 2017, 9:54 pm

Yeah, Hales can count himself hard done by. He has his flaws, but I don't see it with Ballance - he looks like a walking wicket against top class pace attack.

The reports on Wood were England didn't fancy taking anyone less than 100%. Which I can understand, the last thing they want it is him breaking down first morning at the Gabba in searing heat and leaving two seamers + Stokes.

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Re: Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

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