Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Page 4 of 12 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10, 11, 12  Next

Go down

Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by profitius on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 5:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continued from this one. http://www.606v2.com/t63658-irish-provinces-news-gossip-thread-2016-17
________________________________


avatar
profitius

Posts : 4077
Join date : 2012-01-25

Back to top Go down


Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 2:09 pm

Anyway...back to serious stuff.  Have any French players Irish grannies?  Whistle

After all, there are a lot of them - they're not getting as much opportunities as they'd like - given the Internationalisation of the top clubs.... and if they're French, they can't be all that bad in natural bedrock instincts and talent.

So, given that the train might be potentially starting to move out of the station now as regards Irish players leaving for France, why don't some of them look for some opportunities to make a name for themselves with Irish Provinces?  Closer to home too than the New Zealanders and South Africans.  Not that I'm against SAs and Kiwis!  I like a smattering of them about the place... even that Joe Schmidt was good for Leinster before he disappeared to wherever he went to.  But surely some French lads have an O' somewhere in their family tree?

SecretFly

Posts : 28544
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 2:16 pm

rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:POM is with Horizon Sports better known for representing golfers (the people Rory McEvoy used be with and who later sued him and won a big payout). POM was their first rugby client (think Sexton is with them now as well). The connection is that POM's partner's father's legal practice (his partner is also a solicitor working in that company) are Horizon's legal advisors and won the case against Rory McIlroy. Other interesting bit is that she has fluent French has some sort of a French legal qualification and has already spent some time working in France. That all points to them going to France. Worth bearing in mind that both Zebo & POM are still living in Cork, have young families and spending a couple of nights a week in Limerick or travelling up and down every day. That isn't a great lifestyle!

I read that one club's offer is double what the IRFU's central contract is. So, with a young family, Anthony Foley's early death, the possibility of a career ending injury, I'd imagine a lot of players with young families find it hard not to try and do everything they can to secure the future of their families.

Sin sounds like Earls is off to Quins as well, any truth in this??

Sounds like Erasmus leaving has started an exodus at Munster.

Earls & Murray are signed up with Ireland until after the next world cup.

I think the exodus has more to do with Nucifora than Erasmus. What I do think might be a problem is the lack of a world class signing (like Jean de Villiers, BJ, Doug Howlett). Munster now ends up with players who didn't make it at their own province. The top Irish lads will move for success as they will want to win something in their club career. What kept players in Munster in the past was that they knew they were in with a chance, now they can't compete.

avatar
Sin é

Posts : 13566
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by BigGee on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 2:57 pm

Maybe Ireland just need to accept the inevitable and let some of their senior players go and earn their market value. Scotland have had to do so on numerous occasions, though our situation, with only two clubs, means that we need to free up spaces for new players, as well as being unable to match the financial offers.

They could of course be a little bit less dogmatic when it comes to selection. The Welsh solution in many ways seems the most pragmatic, with an acceptance of senior payers going once they have reached a certain number of caps and they would still be available for international selection.

Players like POM have surely earned their right to a payday. He is probably at his peak market value just now. Two more years will likely diminish him, as age and injury begin to catch up on him and he may not command the same sums if he wished to go then.

There is also the experience factor, one the Finn Russell referred to as a big part of his decision. Go somewhere else, experience a different culture, both on and off the pitch. It could possibly improve him both as a player and a person and some of that might rub off on the Irish team.

Even in the best case scenarios it will be hard to ever see the celtic league really competing financially with our richer cousins. These dilemmas are unlikely to ever go away, so maybe they need to be faced up to.

BigGee

Posts : 5453
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:08 pm

BeeGee - POM is too good a player and too experienced to let go. He is the one setting standards now in Munster for the younger players. Its madness to let all of that leave.

By the way, one of the offers POM has got from a club in England is as club captain. Anyone know of a club who has their club captain retiring in the near future?

avatar
Sin é

Posts : 13566
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by rodders on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:27 pm

Sin é wrote:
I think the exodus has more to do with Nucifora than Erasmus. What I do think might be a problem is the lack of a world class signing (like Jean de Villiers, BJ, Doug Howlett). Munster now ends up with players who didn't make it at their own province. The top Irish lads will move for success as they will want to win something in their club career. What kept players in Munster in the past was that they knew they were in with a chance, now they can't compete.


I suppose the thing is though that if the IRFU fork out more on salaries for the tip Irish players there is less for marquee signings, so there is logic to what Nucifera is doing.

However the irony is that it is the ability to compete for Europe that is one of the most attractive things for the players to stay, not just playing international rugby.

I don't see what the solution is though, other than pump more investment into the academies and clubs to keep the provinces competitive in Europe.
avatar
rodders

Posts : 24559
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 37

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:39 pm

BigGee wrote:Maybe Ireland just need to accept the inevitable and let some of their senior players go and earn their market value. Scotland have had to do so on numerous occasions, though our situation, with only two clubs, means that we need to free up spaces for new players, as well as being unable to match the financial offers.

They could of course be a little bit less dogmatic when it comes to selection. The Welsh solution in many ways seems the most pragmatic, with an acceptance of senior payers going once they have reached a certain number of caps and they would still be available for international selection.

Players like POM have surely earned their right to a payday. He is probably at his peak market value just now. Two more years will likely diminish him, as age and injury begin to catch up on him and he may not command the same sums if he wished to go then.

There is also the experience factor, one the Finn Russell referred to as a big part of his decision. Go somewhere else, experience a different culture, both on and off the pitch. It could possibly improve him both as a player and a person and some of that might rub off on the Irish team.

Even in the best case scenarios it will be hard to ever see the celtic league really competing financially with our richer cousins. These dilemmas are unlikely to ever go away, so maybe they need to be faced up to.

They are being faced up to though in as much as any of the smaller Nations can face up to them given their circumstances.  But just rolling over and allowing English Clubs and French Clubs to fight it out amongst themselves at the big dining table of European Rugby?  Well, no.  Not in my psyche to just roll over and give the silver service table to the big guns again without a fight.

The Welsh are actually turning the table on their old policy and trying to adopt a version of the Irish program in trying to make money available to coax some of their more foundation style players back to the Regions.  There has been quite a bit of work done there in recent times it seems, going on what the Welsh posters here have been discussing and in the media.

The best way ever to nurture a sport is in the country itself; in schools, in colleges and into clubs and then, here anyway, on to Province and Nation.  Waiting for the scraps (International players) to come back to you when it pleases the big Leagues in England and France is just waving a white flag - and your Nation only becomes an academy for the Big Privately run clubs to pick and choose from.  
No, it's much more preferable just to fight to the end.  And if that means you're buried in the white flag you refused to hoist, then so be it.  What would stop Big English and French superclubs from coming after even your less established hopes for the future anyway?  If money grows on trees then money grows on trees.  What would stop them gunning for our academy players if you gave up the fight for your cornerstone players so easily?

Rugby in Ireland is still growing.  I still think even its popularity is still growing.  It hasn't levelled off yet.  The academies are churning out a new class of fitter, faster and more technically savvy player every year.  The Provinces are still fighting reasonably hard in Europe.  The IRFU have a good enough head on their shoulders and we will - and they should - try to weather this storm for longer.  

We already have in this country an example of throwing in the towel in sporting terms and it's called The Football League of Ireland.  Most Irish football fans watch Manchester and Liverpool and Sunderland etc etc etc at the weekend and the media is full of the Premier league in England; yet  there is our own national league, always struggling for money, support and viability.  And there we are too choosing English based players to play for us when I firmly believe that there has to be more naturally skilled players playing in our own National league.  But they don't get looked at, they're sneered at by the International coaches that come to coach us.  The 'best' is always with the big leagues in England because well......... well............ yeah, that's the best Leagues, innit? Shocked .  
So what happens?  We suffer twice.  No national League worth a schidt in terms of support and investment.  No International side worth a schidt in player quality terms.  No, BeeGee; giving in is no solution at all and probably just suicide.


Last edited by SecretFly on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

SecretFly

Posts : 28544
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:42 pm

rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
I think the exodus has more to do with Nucifora than Erasmus. What I do think might be a problem is the lack of a world class signing (like Jean de Villiers, BJ, Doug Howlett). Munster now ends up with players who didn't make it at their own province. The top Irish lads will move for success as they will want to win something in their club career. What kept players in Munster in the past was that they knew they were in with a chance, now they can't compete.


I suppose the thing is though that if the IRFU fork out more on salaries for the tip Irish players there is less for marquee signings, so there is logic to what Nucifera is doing.

However the irony is that it is the ability to compete for Europe that is one of the most attractive things for the players to stay, not just playing international rugby.

I don't see what the solution is though, other than pump more investment into the academies and clubs to keep the provinces competitive in Europe.
 
Kidnapping Denis O'Brien and telling him his country needs more....as in all of it...every cent!

SecretFly

Posts : 28544
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by BigGee on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 3:56 pm

Sin é wrote:BeeGee - POM is too good a player and too experienced to let go. He is the one setting standards now in Munster for the younger players. Its madness to let all of that leave.




I accept that it is devastating to contemplate losing a player like POM who is the beating heart of the side. Us Glasgow fans have just gone through that with Finn Russell. We may well lose Johnny Gray this time around as well and I am sure Hoggy will be gone at the end of this contract cycle. We did very well and almost broke the bank to hang onto him last time.

If you want to keep him though, then surely you have to pay the going rate. The going rate for FR was somewhere between £600,000 and £800,000 pa depending on which account you believe. Dobson, the SRU CEO was quite open that we could not even get close to that. Hoggy is the best paid Scottish player, probably on around £350,000 pa if rumours are to be believed, so no wonder we wished him well on his journey.

Even if you break the bank for a player as influential as POM, where does that leave you with the rest of your squad. Firstly every other influential player will now use that as their yardstick for negotiation and it may well effect your ability to spend on other non-native players, marquees or not. In the longer term, that may do you more harm than good.

There is no easy answer to this. I really do wish that clubs like Munster and Glasgow could compete financially with the richer leagues and keep our star players but I suspect that as time goes by we will struggle with that. There is going to be a time in every players career when they think that the sacrifices they have made means that they want to secure their future and money will talk.

On the more positive side and I realise that this applies more to Glasgow, where younger players can get limited chances, it can allow the next generation to come through and become the stars of tomorrow. It also gives me an excuse to watch the French leagues and cheer on my favourite players!

BigGee

Posts : 5453
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by rodders on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 4:16 pm

I think we are already at the breaking point. The IRFU are breaking the bank to squeeze together 300k plus for player who can easily make double in France, soon it will be treble.

It is game over for the pro game, similar to soccer there will be 2-3 marquee leagues where the top clubs and players will reside France, England and Japan and the rest will be also rans.

Ireland and Scotland's future is outside Europe and competing with the SA franchises.
avatar
rodders

Posts : 24559
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 37

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by BigGee on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 4:40 pm

rodders wrote:I think we are already at the breaking point. The IRFU are breaking the bank to squeeze together 300k plus for player who can easily make double in France, soon it will be treble.

It is game over for the pro game, similar to soccer there will be 2-3 marquee leagues where the top clubs and players will reside France, England and Japan and the rest will be also rans.

Ireland and Scotland's future is outside Europe and competing with the SA franchises.  

You are a bit more pessimistic than I am about it. I think the Pro14 is still doing ok, with the SA sides a good addition and will add more value as they get better established. I want to see a good competitive league that gives good rugby and (for me) highlights Scottish players. Losing a few top players to richer leagues now and again, should not effect that.

As many clubs have found out in England and France have found out, throwing money at a club does not guarantee success, nor does it create a balanced league. The English and French leagues are no more balanced than ours is, maybe even worse.

If the Welsh clubs can ever get their act together and the Italians (though that is less obvious) we could have a very competitive league. The Welsh will get their eventually as if they do not, it is going to eventually effect their international side. Their players will also be less and less keen to stay and play in non-competitive teams as well, when they have other options.

BigGee

Posts : 5453
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 7:49 pm

I’d be with Fly on this one. The day I’m waiting for with great glee is when the English and French clubs keel over with debt and realize that BT etc is not going to pay any more.

It’ll be interesting to see if France in the shape of the FFR keeps to its RWC2023 promise to reduce its intake of foreign players and “save World Rugby”.

Pay POM what he’s worth taking into account what staying in Ireland means to him and his family. If he’s determined to go no matter what then he goes. The back rower production line seems to be working fine. And if Conan/Heaslip hog the No 8 shirt, then it’s going to become a battle between him and Stander for the No 6 shirt anyway.

English club needing a captain? Where would you put a permanently grumpy, irascible, fighting to the last backrower with a similar culture to Munster?

Replace Yeandle at Exeter?
Youngs at Leicester?
Pat Lam’s cousin at Bristol?
Launchbury at Wasps?
Willi Heinz at Gloucester where a certain Welsh flanker will be departing for Dragons next season?
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 6023
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 67
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 7:53 pm

I posted elsewhere I fear the damn is close to bursting

Zebo away
POM thinking about it
Henderson making noises that no central contract next summer and he could be off
Also hearing Stander may not get a central contract next summer

Being offered double what you get in Ireland may become simply too tempting for many
In spite of what some on 606v2 claim we are struggling to match the English for salaries and are miles behind the French

When you look at the existing central contract it really is laughable
Anyone got a list of existing central contract and end dates - at a rough guest 1/2 of them are a waste of money

geoff999rugby

Posts : 3928
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 8:08 pm

It is probable that the POM situation is just part of the ongoing negotiations. Having said that the two year deal is clearly not good enough for him. Who can blame him given the treatment to DR and Zebo and the IRFUs penchant for handing out long term central contracts to a number of individuals who probably don’t deserve them.

On top of that Sin touched on a point concerning the change in Munster to a limerick only base for the players. Regardless of the Cork v Limerick thing the logic behind it is cracked. The majority of the players coming through from schools/clubs are from Cork which has always been the case. They are now expected to spend the majority of their time in what is generally regarded as a hole of a city. When it comes to Pom with family he might as well go abroad.

Geen sport voor watjes

Posts : 526
Join date : 2015-11-13

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 8:24 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:I posted elsewhere I fear the damn is close to bursting

Zebo away
POM thinking about it
Henderson making noises that no central contract next summer and he could be off
Also hearing Stander may not get a central contract next summer

Being offered double what you get in Ireland may become simply too tempting for many
In spite of what some on 606v2 claim we are struggling to match the English for salaries and are miles behind the French

When you look at the existing central contract it really is laughable
Anyone got a list of existing central contract and end dates - at a rough guest 1/2 of them are a waste of money

R Kearney 2018
K Earls 2019
R Henshaw 2019
J Payne 2018
Bowe 2018
Sexton 2019
Murray 2019
Heaslip 2019
O’Brien 2019
O’Mahony 2018
Toner 2020
Best 2018
Healy 2019
McGrath 2019

I reckon Payne, Bowe will be dropped. Best & Kearney extended until end RWC 19 like the rest.
Furlong, Henderson, Stander (if O’Mahony goes), Ringrose are likely candidates for Category As.


avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 6023
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 67
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 8:39 pm

Stander is negotiating with Munster for his contract - he seemingly isn't getting a central contract. CJ won't leave as he is just eligible for Irish citizenship as he is in Ireland five years now.
avatar
Sin é

Posts : 13566
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 10:17 pm

They will have to give a CC to Henderson otherwise he will be off.

When is Furlong due for renewal ?

geoff999rugby

Posts : 3928
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 10:22 pm

The list of CC proves my point 5 of those players don't make the first XV

geoff999rugby

Posts : 3928
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 10:25 pm

I've never been overly interested in the details of this thing.... but just how many players are on a central contract?  By Pot's list, it seems there are 14?  Not even symbolically a full team?  Does that number go up and down or do they strictly keep it to a certain number?

Maybe it should be 23... to symbolically at least cater for everyone in a matchday squad?

ps. it's a tough juggling act for the IRFU, trying to balance the funds and pick the right players for the right duration in terms of contracts.  The risks are there that centrally contracted players go off the boil or get injured.  Nobody likes to see any players that have served their country then treated like dirt or like old work horses if they get injured or past it.  But everyone still seems to think only competitive players in contention for real and frequent bouts at International should get one of these contracts.  So how do you do that if not by having a much more ruthless contract that factors in players going off and contracts being killed prematurely?  

Another minefield!  This ain't easy.

SecretFly

Posts : 28544
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 10:48 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:They will have to give a CC to Henderson otherwise he will be off.

When is Furlong due for renewal ?

Geoff - Trimble’s Cat A was a two-year one ending in June 2017. Oddly, I can see no mention of an extension with IRFU or Ulster, but clearly he has a contract of some sort - whether Cat A or B.

I’d agree that Henderson has moved into the category of “likely to be picked” and with potentially Payne and Bowe coming off IRFU books and onto Ulster’s, it would also make sense. I think Furlong is a shoo-in for CC at his renewal in June 2018. And is likely worth his weight in gold. €500k? And/or maybe a Leinster commercial deal top-up.
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 6023
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 67
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 10:51 pm

SecretFly wrote:I've never been overly interested in the details of this thing.... but just how many players are on a central contract?  By Pot's list, it seems there are 14?  Not even symbolically a full team?  Does that number go up and down or do they strictly keep it to a certain number?

Maybe it should be 23... to symbolically at least cater for everyone in a matchday squad?

ps. it's a tough juggling act for the IRFU, trying to balance the funds and pick the right players for the right duration in terms of contracts.  The risks are there that centrally contracted players go off the boil or get injured.  Nobody likes to see any players that have served their country then treated like dirt or like old work horses if they get injured or past it.  But everyone still seems to think only competitive players in contention for real and frequent bouts at International should get one of these contracts.  So how do you do that if not by having a much more ruthless contract that factors in players going off and contracts being killed prematurely?  

Another minefield!  This ain't easy.

I think its very tough on the Provinces - for example, a rake of players who are not on central contracts get injured on Ireland duty and the Provinces have to carry that cost. Fortunately for Munster, POM was on a central contract when he picked up a serious injury at the World Cup, similarly for Paul O'Connell and Jamie Heaslip who also picked up an injury while playing for Ireland. Munster are fairly screwed at the moment because Tommy O'Donnell got injured in Ireland camp, Chris Farrell got injured against Argentina, neither of whom are on central contracts. Fortunately, Keith Earls (who got injured in Ireland camp) is on a CC.

I just hope there is additional finance made available to the Provinces when players who are not on CCs get injured, particularly when they are on tackle bag holding duty.
avatar
Sin é

Posts : 13566
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 10:59 pm

SecretFly wrote:I've never been overly interested in the details of this thing.... but just how many players are on a central contract?  By Pot's list, it seems there are 14?  Not even symbolically a full team?  Does that number go up and down or do they strictly keep it to a certain number?

Maybe it should be 23... to symbolically at least cater for everyone in a matchday squad?

ps. it's a tough juggling act for the IRFU, trying to balance the funds and pick the right players for the right duration in terms of contracts.  The risks are there that centrally contracted players go off the boil or get injured.  Nobody likes to see any players that have served their country then treated like dirt or like old work horses if they get injured or past it.  But everyone still seems to think only competitive players in contention for real and frequent bouts at International should get one of these contracts.  So how do you do that if not by having a much more ruthless contract that factors in players going off and contracts being killed prematurely?  

Another minefield!  This ain't easy.

Fly - the number has gone up and down over the last decade - as high as 23 at one point, down to 10 a few years later. If Trimble is still in there, it’s 15 currently.

There’s no criteria published but here’s one rugby agent’s take on it in May 2016:

David McHugh, an agent for four of the players (Kearney, O'Brien, Ryan and Toner) on the list, believes there has been a reassessment within the union of what gets the most value for money. He said:

"It is not that they are paring them down or trying to fill 23 spots... What warrants a national contract is a consistent, starting position in the national team.

"I'm assuming that the mind-set is there are 13 [now 14] players in the professional game that they presume are starters, spread out across the provinces....

"Ian Madigan wasn't offered a national contract despite being involved in the last 25-odd games. Dave Kearney was not offered a national contract. So, the criteria that makes you that starting 15 player is at the IRFU's discretion."
McHugh added, "If you are a nationally contracted player, playing in the national team, you are not available for a lot of games. So [it comes down to] what value your province puts on you to what value the national team puts on you.

"If the national team don't want to contract you, then the province has a value they can pay to. 'Well you are worth this to us because you'll play 18 games for us as opposed to 26'."


avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 6023
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 67
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 11:04 pm

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I've never been overly interested in the details of this thing.... but just how many players are on a central contract?  By Pot's list, it seems there are 14?  Not even symbolically a full team?  Does that number go up and down or do they strictly keep it to a certain number?

Maybe it should be 23... to symbolically at least cater for everyone in a matchday squad?

ps. it's a tough juggling act for the IRFU, trying to balance the funds and pick the right players for the right duration in terms of contracts.  The risks are there that centrally contracted players go off the boil or get injured.  Nobody likes to see any players that have served their country then treated like dirt or like old work horses if they get injured or past it.  But everyone still seems to think only competitive players in contention for real and frequent bouts at International should get one of these contracts.  So how do you do that if not by having a much more ruthless contract that factors in players going off and contracts being killed prematurely?  

Another minefield!  This ain't easy.

I think its very tough on the Provinces - for example, a rake of players who are not on central contracts get injured on Ireland duty and the Provinces have to carry that cost. Fortunately for Munster, POM was on a central contract when he picked up a serious injury at the World Cup, similarly for Paul O'Connell and Jamie Heaslip who also picked up an injury while playing for Ireland. Munster are fairly screwed at the moment because Tommy O'Donnell got injured in Ireland camp, Chris Farrell got injured against Argentina, neither of whom are on central contracts. Fortunately, Keith Earls (who got injured in Ireland camp) is on a CC.

I just hope there is additional finance made available to the Provinces when players who are not on CCs get injured, particularly when they are on tackle bag holding duty.

Player insurance covers a lot of the injuries/cover cost at both provincial and central level. I was talking with one of the Leinster player’s parents recently at a game and Heaslip’s name came up due to recently signed contract and his subsequent injury. They said insurance covered it so it wasn’t a cost to carry.
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 6023
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 67
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 11:10 pm

Does that kick in for both long and short term injury? If it includes short term injury (couple of games), it must cost a packet!
avatar
Sin é

Posts : 13566
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 11:21 pm

All good info that I should have been au fait with years ago... but I is lazy Wink Thanks Pot and others for the synopsis.

SecretFly

Posts : 28544
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 11:22 pm

Sin é wrote:Does that kick in for both long and short term injury? If it includes short term injury (couple of games), it must cost a packet!

I don’t know Sin, tbh. It’s probably a version of Keyman insurance. I had it in my company for myself and a couple of others so that if we were out of work for an extended period our salaries were covered. Came in very handy too when I ended up out of work for four months at one stage.

Yes it costs a packet but given the business they’re in it makes sense and a necessary cost. If you look at the IRFU accounts for last couple of years, you’ll see insurance costs have risen substantially.
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 6023
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 67
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 11:27 pm

I want to hike around the full Australian coastline for charity (Rest and Recuperation Fund for SecretFly)...it should take me 15 years if I don't rush myself too much. So Pot? Would that Keyman Insurance handle it? Whistle

SecretFly

Posts : 28544
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 11:29 pm

SecretFly wrote:I want to hike around the full Australian coastline for charity (Rest and Recuperation Fund for SecretFly)...it should take me 15 years if I don't rush myself too much.  So Pot?   Would that Keyman Insurance handle it?  Whistle

Errr.. can you get a certificate from your - err- ‘doctor’?
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 6023
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 67
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 11:38 pm

Very Happy

Anyway, I'm off again now until probably the 6N. You guys have a good Christmas and New Year and don't fight too much in here. I know we'd all like more Welshman back on the site to kick the shi........ to chat with.... Whistle ... but hold yisser tempers, they'll be back pronto when 6N hits.

SecretFly

Posts : 28544
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 28 Nov 2017, 11:50 pm

Before you go, here’s some food for thought on what our moneyed neighbours are now contemplating due to their mad rush to drive up everything.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/28/premiership-reduced-10-teams-player-strike
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 6023
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 67
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by rodders on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 10:14 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

On top of that Sin touched on a point concerning the change in Munster to a limerick only base for the players. Regardless of the Cork v Limerick thing the logic behind it is cracked. The majority of the players coming through from schools/clubs are from Cork which has always been the case. They are now expected to spend the majority of their time in what is generally regarded  as a hole of a city. When it comes to Pom with family he might as well go abroad.

laughing
avatar
rodders

Posts : 24559
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 37

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by marty2086 on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 10:25 am

Pot Hale wrote:Before you go, here’s some food for thought on what our moneyed neighbours are now contemplating due to their mad rush to drive up everything.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/28/premiership-reduced-10-teams-player-strike

That could be both good and bad for the IRFU, it'll reduce squad sizes and the need for NEQ players but when it a club does sign a NEQ player it may mean they can pay more

marty2086

Posts : 10255
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 32
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Wed 29 Nov 2017, 3:48 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:I posted elsewhere I fear the damn is close to bursting

Zebo away
POM thinking about it
Henderson making noises that no central contract next summer and he could be off
Also hearing Stander may not get a central contract next summer

Being offered double what you get in Ireland may become simply too tempting for many
In spite of what some on 606v2 claim we are struggling to match the English for salaries and are miles behind the French

When you look at the existing central contract it really is laughable
Anyone got a list of existing central contract and end dates - at a rough guest 1/2 of them are a waste of money

R Kearney 2018
K Earls 2019
R Henshaw 2019
J Payne 2018
Bowe 2018
Sexton 2019
Murray 2019
Heaslip 2019
O’Brien 2019
O’Mahony 2018
Toner 2020
Best 2018
Healy 2019
McGrath 2019

I reckon Payne, Bowe will be dropped.  Best & Kearney extended until end RWC 19 like the rest.
Furlong, Henderson, Stander (if O’Mahony goes), Ringrose are likely candidates for Category As.


R Kearney 2018 - 31
K Earls 2019 - 30
R Henshaw 2019 - 24
J Payne 2018 - 32
Bowe 2018 - 33
Sexton 2019 - 32
Murray 2019 - 28
Heaslip 2019 - 33 (almost 34)
O’Brien 2019 - 30
O’Mahony 2018 - ?
Toner 2020 - 31
Best 2018 - 35
Healy 2019 - 30
McGrath 2019 - 28

The above is indicative ages. Kearney and Best taken to the RWC.
We'd need to secure Furlong, Henderson who are prime candidates.
An argument could be made towards Carbery and Stockdale.

Even if the pot of money available stayed as it is Payne & Bowe money combined probably just about covers Furlong.
Heaslips money (plus something) is probably needed for Henderson. Then more will be needed for a Carbery/Stockdale.

The above contracts look like pushes through to the RWC. Heaslip shouldn't have been renewed when he was already into his 30s (plenty of backrow options on a value for money angle). Toner and Best were (and are for Best) critical options in positions lacking sufficient depth so makes sense stretching the ages there particularly for Best.

Anybody getting a contract past 2019 it needs to be for players that should still be key by 2023. So keeping McGrath, Murray, Henshaw and at a stretch Toner (so pun intended. though his money probably goes to Henderson).

thebandwagonsociety

Posts : 2368
Join date : 2011-06-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 30 Nov 2017, 9:49 am

Would not mind betting Toner and Henderson will be the only players with a CC that goes beyond the World Cup and even then only till 2020.

I wonder if a whole re-evaluation of the system is under consideration ?


geoff999rugby

Posts : 3928
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by marty2086 on Thu 30 Nov 2017, 10:05 am

I think it's more the person administering it that needs re-evaluating, he really seems to be pretty poor at it




marty2086

Posts : 10255
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 32
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 30 Nov 2017, 10:15 am

Good point a lot of those guys may say this stage in my career, no World Cup for 4 years lets cash it

Earls, Murray, Healy, SOB, McGrath could all be interested in the big bucks
Henderson to follow in 2020, or earlier if he doesn't given Henderson a CC this coming summer

Too late for Heaslip or Best

geoff999rugby

Posts : 3928
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 9:43 am

Worth reading

Gordon D'Arcy

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gordon-d-arcy-irfu-has-to-pay-peter-o-mahony-what-he-wants-1.3316877

A more pointed observation
http://rugbylad.ie/the-deluded-leinster-view-on-peter-omahony-cj-stander-with-ireland-needs-to-stop/

geoff999rugby

Posts : 3928
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by marty2086 on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 1:47 pm

Eddie O'Sullivan wrote:Looking at the logjam that Leinster have, I wonder why James Lowe was brought in at all.

If you look at the players they have now, they have Isa Nacewa, Fergus McFadden, Adam Byrne, Barry Daly, Jordan Larmour, Jack Kelly, Ian Fitzpatrick, Hugo Keenan.

Lowe is 25-years-of-age, he’s not some 30-year-old, 50-cap All-Black, who’s going to bring a huge, vast wealth of experience from playing with the All Blacks. He’s as young as the lads around him and it’s a complete logjam in their wing positions.

It’s a funny signing in that if you’re a young winger at Leinster, you’d wonder where your future lies


marty2086

Posts : 10255
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 32
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by BamBam on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 1:48 pm

I thought Lowe was intended as a project player

BamBam

Posts : 14252
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 29

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by marty2086 on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 1:50 pm

He's capped by the Maoris are they not NZs second team?

marty2086

Posts : 10255
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 32
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by BamBam on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 1:53 pm

Don't quote me, but I think the U20s are their second team

BamBam

Posts : 14252
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 29

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 5:51 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Eddie O'Sullivan wrote:Looking at the logjam that Leinster have, I wonder why James Lowe was brought in at all.

If you look at the players they have now, they have Isa Nacewa, Fergus McFadden, Adam Byrne, Barry Daly, Jordan Larmour, Jack Kelly, Ian Fitzpatrick, Hugo Keenan.

Lowe is 25-years-of-age, he’s not some 30-year-old, 50-cap All-Black, who’s going to bring a huge, vast wealth of experience from playing with the All Blacks. He’s as young as the lads around him and it’s a complete logjam in their wing positions.

It’s a funny signing in that if you’re a young winger at Leinster, you’d wonder where your future lies

Lowe was signed before Barry Daly and Larmour really made their breakthrough. Isa is in his last season, McFadden isn't good enough, Kelly, Fitpatrick and Keenan may not make it as professional rugby players let alone play for Leinster.

Are these ridiculous comments going to come out every time a NIQ player is signed?

LeinsterFan4life

Posts : 5135
Join date : 2012-03-13
Age : 28
Location : Meath

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 7:06 pm

You could add in both Kearneys having long term injury problems around the time Lowe was being signed as well.

How is Lowe preventing POM from staying at Munster?

Stander will attract attention from all clubs with his performances. It is amazing to think that he was on the verge of retiring from professional rugby in SA and going to work on the farm as he was considered too small. It was a last chance roll of the dice to head to Munster and make a go at being a pro-rugby player on last time.

But a player's career is short and if he wants the extra cash then he should go after the extra cash. Same goes for POM, Sexton, SOB, Healy, Best, Aki, any of them.

SOB and Heaslip shouldn't be on central contracts. Neither should Toner in reality as there were enough potential options coming through in Dillane, Henderson and the tail of D Ryan should have shown enough depth at the position.

Any player that wants a fresh central contract better get into the queue in front of Henderson and Furlong as there won't be any spare cash once those two get sorted.

thebandwagonsociety

Posts : 2368
Join date : 2011-06-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 8:00 pm

The only way their is no spare cash will be because their is a lot less of it.
Putting CJ, POM and Henderson on a central contract this coming summer would not be a significant financial strain for the IRFU

Bowe and Payne will free up enough to pay for Henderson and half of that required for CJ.
POM just needs to be offered what he gets now.

Given we have about 6/7 players who will be off CC in 2019 the small increase, to tied us over, is no big deal.

As I say this smacks of less cash being put into CCs


geoff999rugby

Posts : 3928
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 08 Dec 2017, 2:16 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Eddie O'Sullivan wrote:Looking at the logjam that Leinster have, I wonder why James Lowe was brought in at all.

If you look at the players they have now, they have Isa Nacewa, Fergus McFadden, Adam Byrne, Barry Daly, Jordan Larmour, Jack Kelly, Ian Fitzpatrick, Hugo Keenan.

Lowe is 25-years-of-age, he’s not some 30-year-old, 50-cap All-Black, who’s going to bring a huge, vast wealth of experience from playing with the All Blacks. He’s as young as the lads around him and it’s a complete logjam in their wing positions.

It’s a funny signing in that if you’re a young winger at Leinster, you’d wonder where your future lies

Lowe was signed before Barry Daly and Larmour really made their breakthrough. Isa is in his last season, McFadden isn't good enough, Kelly, Fitpatrick and Keenan may not make it as professional rugby players let alone play for Leinster.

Are these ridiculous comments going to come out every time a NIQ player is signed?

Indeed. Leinster went looking for a player for their back three last season as they knew Kirchner contract was coming to an end and wouldn't be renewed, Luke Fitzgerald got injured and had to retire, and Nacewa is in his 35th year. Lowe is 25 this year. He has a history of juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, and as he himself admits breaks down regularly. Nonetheless he had a brilliant season for Chiefs last season. He's coming in as a NIQ player since Gibson Park is their nominated special project player. Lowe's contract will finish in May 2020. He wouldn't be residency qualified until mid-November 2020. If Larmour, Daly, Byrne et al all develop nicely, then Lowe may not get a renewal and that will be that. He may break down again, in which case he's also out of the picture. If his contract was renewed, then it would likely be Six Nations 2021 that would be his first opportunity. At that point, the new Irish coach will want to be bedding down his RWC 2023 squad at which Lowe would be 31 if he were to play.

Doesn't look a likely prospect.
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 6023
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 67
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by theslosty on Fri 08 Dec 2017, 2:34 am

Some talk of TOH to Munster. Would be good move for him but have to feel sympathy for Connacht.
avatar
theslosty

Posts : 837
Join date : 2012-05-01
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 08 Dec 2017, 5:12 am

Who pushed out billy?

mikey_dragon

Posts : 7294
Join date : 2015-07-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri 08 Dec 2017, 9:08 am

theslosty wrote:Some talk of TOH to Munster. Would be good move for him but have to feel sympathy for Connacht.

Also talk of TOH to Ulster

geoff999rugby

Posts : 3928
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri 08 Dec 2017, 10:19 am

DOC has publically expressed concern that ROG may have been in Munster recently to tempt POM away

geoff999rugby

Posts : 3928
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Intotouch on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 1:12 am

Tempt him away where Geoff? The Crusaders? That'd be something new to see. The player drain to the south begins....

Intotouch

Posts : 533
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : Usually Dublin

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 1:40 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
theslosty wrote:Some talk of TOH to Munster. Would be good move for him but have to feel sympathy for Connacht.

Also talk of TOH to Ulster

Jeez, Connacht are getting trashed every time they develop a player of substance. Aki will be surrounded by mediocrity which doesn’t bode well for his international test chances if he’s not playing alongside quality all the time.

You’d also wonder how players such as Healy, Adeolokun and Buckley might do if they had a better squad around them. The path to the Sportsground must be sprouting weeds it’s travelled so little in comparison to the others.
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 6023
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 67
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish provinces NEWS and GOSSIP thread part 2

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 4 of 12 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10, 11, 12  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum