European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

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European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by George Carlin on Tue 10 Oct 2017, 8:12 am

First topic message reminder :

Right, seeing as it seems nobody else has put up any match threads yet, perhaps we can use this as a general thread for the build up to this year's European club competition.

The first round of Champions Cup matches looks like this:

13/10/2017 19:45 P1
Ulster Rugby  v   Wasps
Kingspan Stadium
BT Sport / beIN Sports More

14/10/2017 13:00 P3
Leinster Rugby  v   Montpellier
RDS Arena
Sky Sports / beIN Sports More

14/10/2017 16:15 P4
Racing 92  v   Leicester Tigers
Stade Yves-Du-Manoir
beIN Sports / BT Sport More

14/10/2017 17:30 P1
Harlequins  v   La Rochelle
The Twickenham Stoop
Sky Sports / beIN Sports More

14/10/2017 17:30 P5
Bath Rugby  v   Benetton Rugby
The Recreation Ground
Sky Sports / beIN Sports More

14/10/2017 19:45 P3
Exeter Chiefs  v   Glasgow Warriors
Sandy Park
BT Sport / beIN Sports More

15/10/2017 14:00 P4
Castres Olympique  v   Munster Rugby
Stade Pierre Fabre
beIN Sports / Sky Sports More

15/10/2017 16:15 P5
RC Toulon  v   Scarlets
Stade Félix Mayol
FR2 / Sky Sports / beIN Sports More

15/10/2017 17:30 P2
Northampton Saints  v   Saracens
Franklin's Gardens
BT Sport / beIN Sports More

15/10/2017 17:30 P2
Ospreys  v   ASM Clermont Auvergne
Liberty Stadium
BT Sport / beIN Sports

We all have our own vested interests but for me the picks of the round are:

- Chiefs v Glasgow: 2nd in the Jeff vs 1st in Pro 12 conference A - both teams playing very well - should be a stormer.

- Toulon v Scarlets: top of Pro 12 conference B, Scarlets are flying and are coming up against an imperfect side that has already lost 3 times this season. Great chance for an away win.

- Saints v Sarries: 1st v 3rd, an English classic, should be absolutely brutal.
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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 9:12 pm

nathan wrote:To be fair, thought they all had a good game.

Still shocked Mallinder chose not to take Lawes off

He was a beast for Saints. I'd have wrapped him in cotton wool after Sarries scored their first second half try.

I suspect Saints will have a lot of defensive drills in the coming week as well because their line speed was poor. Can't give that much time on the ball in the European competition, too many high quality packs about.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by Scottrf on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 10:42 pm

That was absolutely hopeless. Second best in every area, didn't compete at lineout, rucks. No linespeed or intensity in tackling and didn't do anything about Sarries going offside when our 9 picked the ball.

I think we should give up on the Champions Cup now, we are not coming back from 0 points in our opening home game.

And yes rest Lawes ffs. Should have hooked a few at half time but he doesn't have it in him.

No effort and I seriously considered leaving at half time. My friend did shortly after and it's the only time he ever has as a 15 odd year season ticket holder.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by Welly on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:16 am

scary that Isiekwe is only 19 for a lock he looks so comfortable at this level.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 1:03 pm

Agree Welly,
He doesn't look out of place - and is certainly throwing his weight around.
Aside from Chiefs and Sarries it was a fairly poopy first round for the Aviva Prem sides!

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 1:32 pm

Isiekwe's form means Itoje may well be wearing 6 for a while longer this season.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 1:33 pm

propdavid_london wrote:it was a fairly poopy first round for the Aviva Prem sides!
Part of me doesn't want too many Aviva sides going deep in Europe this year. Once the 2018/19 season gets underway, our World Cup squad players have virtually no break until the tournament is over. This is the last year to give our international players the semblance of a reasonable year, and they aren't going to get it at the end, on tour in South Africa in June, or at the start of the 2018/19 season, when we play Australia, South Africa and New Zealand in autumn internationals.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by RugbyFan100 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 2:20 pm

How is this not a yellow card / penalty try?


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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by Heaf2 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 2:21 pm

Poor officiating ...

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by the-goon on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 4:56 pm

Likely cos murray was sinbinned 2 min before that. Should have been PT and YC.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by TJ on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 8:39 pm

No penalty try for me as there was defence there who might have stopped it - but dead certain yellow card

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by VinceWLB on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 9:44 pm

The thing is there should have been a penalty try earlier on as well when one player was tackled without the ball after a short kick behind the defense.

I would be absolutely furious if i were a Castres fan.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by marty2086 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 9:49 pm

Wssnt a yellow card because the hands were out before the offload and Zebo helped himself by making a tackle too

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 9:51 pm

marty2086 wrote:Wssnt a yellow card because the hands were out before the offload and Zebo helped himself by making a tackle too

The movement of the hand is important not that it's out already. The downward movement as he slaps the ball down should make it an easy yellow card every day of the week. There's no attempt to catch the ball, it's a cynical attempt to stop the pass being completed.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by marty2086 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 9:53 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Wssnt a yellow card because the hands were out before the offload and Zebo helped himself by making a tackle too

The movement of the hand is important not that it's out already. The downward movement as he slaps the ball down should make it an easy yellow card every day of the week. There's no attempt to catch the ball, it's a cynical attempt to stop the pass being completed.

The movement of making a tackle you mean?

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 7:16 am

marty2086 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Wssnt a yellow card because the hands were out before the offload and Zebo helped himself by making a tackle too

The movement of the hand is important not that it's out already. The downward movement as he slaps the ball down should make it an easy yellow card every day of the week. There's no attempt to catch the ball, it's a cynical attempt to stop the pass being completed.

The movement of making a tackle you mean?

No the left hand isn't moving towards the player it's moving directly downwards to intercept the ball. You could argue it's a subconscious reaction but it's not part of leading a shoulder into the tackle or attempting to wrap the man. It's normally a give away when an outside defender makes such a poor upright tackle with his arms spread out like that, they are more interested in blocking the pass than taking man and ball.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by munkian on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 3:55 pm

Boom

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/louw-cited-for-alleged-eye-gouge/

He'll bring some decent biltong and get a 6 weeks knocked off mind.
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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 4:14 pm

marty2086 wrote:Wssnt a yellow card because the hands were out before the offload

Which law number covers this?

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 4:16 pm

VinceWLB wrote:The thing is there should have been a penalty try earlier on as well when one player was tackled without the ball after a short kick behind the defense.

I would be absolutely furious if i were a Castres fan.

Yup. Plus the Copeland non penalty. It was an absolute horror show from the referee.




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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by marty2086 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 5:13 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Wssnt a yellow card because the hands were out before the offload

Which law number covers this?

The ones that cover knock ones and intentional foul play

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by R!skysports on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 5:42 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Wssnt a yellow card because the hands were out before the offload

Which law number covers this?

The ones that cover knock ones and intentional foul play

Ask Sean Matland about that from teh World cup when he was yellow carded against Australia


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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by marty2086 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 5:48 pm

R!skysports wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Wssnt a yellow card because the hands were out before the offload

Which law number covers this?

The ones that cover knock ones and intentional foul play

Ask Sean Matland about that from teh World cup when he was yellow carded against Australia


Erm

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by George Carlin on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 8:51 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Wssnt a yellow card because the hands were out before the offload

Which law number covers this?
DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
12

knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
If a player in tackling an opponent makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward from the ball carrier’s hands, that is a knock-on.
If a player rips the ball or deliberately knocks the ball from an opponent's hands and the ball goes forward from the ball carrier's hands, that is not a knock-on.

EXCEPTION
12

Charge down. If a player charges down the ball as an opponent kicks it, or immediately after the kick, it is not a knock-on even though the ball may travel forward.

Knock-on

DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD


throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward, i.e, if the arms of the player passing the ball move towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

EXCEPTION

Bounce forward. If the ball is not thrown forward but it hits a player or the ground and bounces forward, this is not a throw forward.

Charge down

12.1 The outcome of a knock-on or throw forward
(a)
Unintentional knock-on or throw forward. A scrum is awarded at the place of infringement.

(b)
Unintentional knock-on or throw forward at a lineout. A scrum is awarded 15 metres from the touchline.

(c)
Knock-on or throw forward into the in-goal. If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock-on or throw forward happened.

(d)
Knock-on or throw forward inside the in-goal. If a player of either team knocks-on or throws-forward inside the in-goal, a 5-metre scrum is awarded in line with the place of infringement not closer than 5 metres from the touchline.

(e)
Knock-on or throw forward into touch. When the ball goes into touch from a knock-on or throw forward, the non-offending team will have the option of a lineout at the point the ball crossed the touch line or a scrum at the place of the knock-on or throw forward, or a quick throw in.

(f)
Intentional knock or throw forward. A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm, nor throw forward.

Sanction: Penalty kick. A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored.
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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 9:23 am

I'm still not seeing where in the laws it states that a deliberate knock on is not a yellow card if "the hands are out before the offload".

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by Scottrf on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 9:29 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm still not seeing where in the laws it states that a deliberate knock on is not a yellow card if "the hands are out before the offload".

How is it deliberate if the action occurred before the ball was in motion?

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 9:42 am

Scottrf wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm still not seeing where in the laws it states that a deliberate knock on is not a yellow card if "the hands are out before the offload".

How is it deliberate if the action occurred before the ball was in motion?

Pretty easily. You deliberately stick your arm out where a pass/offload is going to go.

Are you seriously suggesting that Zebo had an itch under his armpit or sudden rigor mortis in that one arm?

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by Scottrf on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 9:54 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm still not seeing where in the laws it states that a deliberate knock on is not a yellow card if "the hands are out before the offload".

How is it deliberate if the action occurred before the ball was in motion?

Pretty easily. You deliberately stick your arm out where a pass/offload is going to go.

Are you seriously suggesting that Zebo had an itch under his armpit or sudden rigor mortis in that one arm?

Well, you can't obstruct someone by standing your ground. Yet you can position yourself where they will run and are just as able to get out of the way.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:01 am

Okay then. I think we're done on this.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by marty2086 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:03 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm still not seeing where in the laws it states that a deliberate knock on is not a yellow card if "the hands are out before the offload".

If your hand is there before the ball is passed its not deliberate, thays why Rolling Eyes

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by munkian on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:09 am

Munster get away with negative play shocker.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:54 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm still not seeing where in the laws it states that a deliberate knock on is not a yellow card if "the hands are out before the offload".

If your hand is there before the ball is passed its not deliberate, thays why Rolling Eyes

It is when your hand then moves down to slap the ball to the floor.

TV the Tigers 15 got yellow carded for flicking the ball up and trying to catch it. If there's any consistency in officiating then that is a yellow card all day for Munster.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by marty2086 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:55 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm still not seeing where in the laws it states that a deliberate knock on is not a yellow card if "the hands are out before the offload".

If your hand is there before the ball is passed its not deliberate, thays why Rolling Eyes

It is when your hand then moves down to slap the ball to the floor.

TV the Tigers 15 got yellow carded for flicking the ball up and trying to catch it. If there's any consistency in officiating then that is a yellow card all day for Munster.

Except Zebo went in for a tackle

I'm not saying it was or wasn't a yellow for Zebo but it is easy enough to see why it wasn't

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 1:14 pm

Not sure on yellow. Seen it go both ways. Blatant penalty try though.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by munkian on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 1:18 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure on yellow. Seen it go both ways. Blatant penalty try though.

Will generally be a yellow if you've given away a penalty try.

Bath were very lucky.
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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 1:43 pm

Didn't see the bath game. Looked a non event from the score. Seen some.moans at performance.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 2:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't see the bath game. Looked a non event from the score.  Seen some.moans at performance.
Bath didn't get a BP at home to Treviso. That could be very significant.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 3:24 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't see the bath game. Looked a non event from the score.  Seen some.moans at performance.
Bath didn't get a BP at home to Treviso. That could be very significant.

Especially in that group. You would think that Bath need something out of Fridays game against Scarlets to have a chance, although early days, I reckon Scarlets bonus point in Toulon could prove to be crucial.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 3:48 pm

But from a perspective of Bath being lucky?

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 3:56 pm

marty2086 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm still not seeing where in the laws it states that a deliberate knock on is not a yellow card if "the hands are out before the offload".

If your hand is there before the ball is passed its not deliberate, thays why Rolling Eyes

It is when your hand then moves down to slap the ball to the floor.

TV the Tigers 15 got yellow carded for flicking the ball up and trying to catch it. If there's any consistency in officiating then that is a yellow card all day for Munster.

Except Zebo went in for a tackle

I'm not saying it was or wasn't a yellow for Zebo but it is easy enough to see why it wasn't

We'll have to agree to disagree on that because from what I saw he's got his eyes on the ball and is more focused on blocking that than he is making a tackle. The movement of his left hand to slap the ball down is in the incriminating movement.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 4:12 pm

Just saw this, OMG.

marty2086 wrote:Except Zebo went in for a tackle

No he didn't. His arm was outstretched with the intention of blocking the pass.


formerly known as Sam wrote:from what I saw he's got his eyes on the ball and is more focused on blocking that than he is making a tackle. The movement of his left hand to slap the ball down is in the incriminating movement.

This 100%. That is exactly as I saw it.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 5:13 pm

Zebo should have been carded, if there hadn't been a card just before he would have been.

Having said that anyone complaining Zebo was in some way unsporting needs to wise up - any winger worth his salt would have done the same - not his fault the ref bottled it

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by whocares on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 9:03 pm

Maybe we can agree that this discussion on the ref (non) decision has been flogged to death and that we can now move on to round 2 perhaps ? Smile
Just saying really. It is sometimes a bit sad that we can spend 90% of the time discussing referee decisions as opposed to more positive things that also happen in a rugby game.
Thoughts on the coming weekend game ? Maybe not many tasty match ups but the likes of Glasgow-Leinster, Montpelier - Exeter , wasps-Quins or La Rochelle-Ulster could go either way?

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by marty2086 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 9:25 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Just saw this, OMG.

marty2086 wrote:Except Zebo went in for a tackle

No he didn't. His arm was outstretched with the intention of blocking the pass.

Yes they were out and then he tackled the player, try watching it

It gave the ref an out

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:30 pm

whocares wrote:Maybe not many tasty match ups but the likes of Glasgow-Leinster, Montpelier - Exeter , wasps-Quins or La Rochelle-Ulster could go either way?

4 home favourites but none are certainties

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by Heaf2 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:50 pm

whocares wrote:Maybe we can agree that this discussion on the ref (non) decision has been flogged to death and that we can now move on to round 2 perhaps ? Smile
Just saying really. It is sometimes a bit sad that we can spend 90% of the time discussing referee decisions as opposed to more positive things that also happen in a rugby game.
Thoughts on the coming weekend game ? Maybe not many tasty match ups but the likes of Glasgow-Leinster, Montpelier - Exeter , wasps-Quins or La Rochelle-Ulster could go either way?

it seems not Whistle

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by George Carlin on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 6:22 am

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by nahiean.sa on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 10:28 am

The welsh side will be looking to break down a sturdy Bath Rugby team
that didn't concede a point last weekend in their 23-0 win over Benetton Rugby.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by munkian on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 10:30 am

nahiean.sa wrote:The welsh side will be looking to break down a sturdy Bath Rugby team
that didn't concede a point last weekend in their 23-0 win over Benetton Rugby.

With more than a little help from the ref.

They'll be missing Louw now too - but only for three weeks Rolling Eyes
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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 10:41 am

More inconsistency between panels then.

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 1:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:More inconsistency between panels then.

https://gifballs.wordpress.com/2017/10/19/consistent-inconsistency-a-modern-history-of-the-eye-gouge/

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

Post by marty2086 on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 2:02 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:More inconsistency between panels then.

I've seen the same panel be inconsistent so theres no hope

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Re: European Rugby Champions Cup 2017 - Round 1

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