Deliberate knock downs

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Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 11:39 am



Last night in the Exeter - Glasgow match, Glasgow were on the attack and an Exeter player deliberately knocked the ball down (went backwards) when if the pass had gone to hand, Glasgow would have scored. Had the ball travelled forward last night, could the Exeter player have been penalised, shown a card and possibly have a penalty try awarded for this act?

Is there such a difference in which way the ball goes? It seems that a deliberate knockdown with the ball going backwards is acceptable but a deliberate knockdown with the ball going forward is a penalty and a card.

To me, I see no difference in these as either way the ball bounces could result in potentially stopping try scoring opportunities.

Would really appreciate if someone (with a lot more knowledge of rugby laws than myself) could explain the difference.
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by TJ on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 11:56 am

easy - ball backwards is not an offence. Its the same as a flick on or give and take pass

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by asoreleftshoulder on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 11:57 am

The offense is a deliberate knock on,knocking it back is not a problem,players do this when contesting for a ball in the air .

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:00 pm

I do not see it as easy as that. Both are intentionally knocking the ball down to stop a try scoring opportunity. The direction the ball travels should not determine the outcome of the act in my opinion.
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:02 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:The offense is a deliberate knock on,knocking it back is not a problem,players do this when contesting for a ball in the air .

This, to me, is a different situation. Contesting the ball is a contest, if contesting the ball in the air and it goes forward it is a knock on and not a penalty or a card. It is not deemed deliberate.
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:22 pm

eirebilly wrote:I do not see it as easy as that. Both are intentionally knocking the ball down to stop a try scoring opportunity. The direction the ball travels should not determine the outcome of the act in my opinion.

But it does. As previously mentioned, knocking the ball down is not an offence, knocking it forwards is.

Take another situation - making an interception from an offside position to prevent a try will probably result in a YC and a PT, doing it from an onside position is perfectly valid.


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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by asoreleftshoulder on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:23 pm

eirebilly wrote:I do not see it as easy as that. Both are intentionally knocking the ball down to stop a try scoring opportunity. The direction the ball travels should not determine the outcome of the act in my opinion.
It is as easy as that according to the laws,you can play the ball backwards whenever or however you want once you’re onside.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:47 pm

eirebilly wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:The offense is a deliberate knock on,knocking it back is not a problem,players do this when contesting for a ball in the air .

This, to me, is a different situation. Contesting the ball is a contest
Rugby Union is all about contesting the ball. It's one of the main differences between our code and League. Batting away an opponents pass, to stop it getting where it is intended, is a legitimate way to contest. Like all contests, though, you have to do it legally, so you'll be penalized if the ball goes forward from your hand.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:48 pm

I just do not agree with the laws then as I feel anytime a pass is deliberately knocked down (whether it travel forwards or backwards) interfering with a play that could potentially lead to a try should be seen as cynical play and be penalised.

It is not competing for the ball, it is deliberately stopping a play.


Last edited by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by VinceWLB on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:49 pm

I have been saying it for years.. Knock the ball down or on without an attempt to catch the ball is the same: Deliberate foul play against the spirit of the game that should result in a penalty.

Then again, those that makes rugby rules aren't always the smartest tools in the box.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:51 pm

eirebilly wrote:I just do not agree with the laws then as I feel anytime a pass is deliberately knocked down (whether it travel forwards or backwards) interfering with a play that could potentially lead to a try then that is cynical play and should be penalised.

So you want to add an offence of knocking the ball down? Could open up a huge raft of issues elsewhere (such as tap downs from lineouts, kicks etc). As it is deliberatley knocking the ball backwards is allowed - and is part of the basic structure of the game.

PS you edited your post while I was writing this. I disagree with your second point, knocking a ball backwards allows an onside teammate to compete for it.


Last edited by LondonTiger on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Fuzzy Dunlop on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:52 pm

VinceWLB wrote:I have been saying it for years.. Knock the ball down or on without an attempt to catch the ball is the same: Deliberate foul play against the spirit of the game that should result in a penalty.

Then again, those that makes rugby rules aren't always the smartest tools in the box.

So because they might not agree with your opinion it must be because they're not smart? Do you have the same view of fans who are perfectly happy with players being able to knock the ball backwards?

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Heaf2 on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:56 pm

Knocking it backwards is fine for me ...

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:56 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I just do not agree with the laws then as I feel anytime a pass is deliberately knocked down (whether it travel forwards or backwards) interfering with a play that could potentially lead to a try then that is cynical play and should be penalised.

So you want to add an offence of knocking the ball down? Could open up a huge raft of issues elsewhere (such as tap downs from lineouts, kicks etc). As it is deliberatley knocking the ball backwards is allowed - and is part of the basic structure of the game.

PS you edited your post while I was writing this. I disagree with your second point, knocking a ball backwards allows an onside teammate to compete for it.

I think you may be miss-understanding my point. I have no problems with knocking the ball down in contests (Line-outs and high balls) I simply have an issue with deliberately knocking the ball down to breakdown an attacking play or potential try scoring play. To me, whether on the ball goes forwards or backwards should not have impact. It is a deliberate piece of cynical play and should be penalised. If the laws (ref's) can distinguish between true attempted intercepts and deliberate knock downs then this should not be an issue to me.
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Heaf2 on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 12:59 pm

I think we get it but just don't agree Hug

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 1:09 pm

Anyone watching the Castres - Munster game will just have seen what I mean. Zebo with a deliberate knock-down (not sure if it went forward or not) that cost Castres a try. Penalty awarded but I think a card and a penalty try was the correct outcome.
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 1:36 pm

eirebilly wrote:Anyone watching the Castres - Munster game will just have seen what I mean. Zebo with a deliberate knock-down (not sure if it went forward or not) that cost Castres a try. Penalty awarded but I think a card and a penalty try was the correct outcome.
I didn't see it, but it wouldn't have been a penalty if it was knocked backwards, as that is legal.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by VinceWLB on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 1:38 pm

Heaf2 wrote:Knocking it backwards is fine for me ...

So negative play is fine to you?

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 1:41 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
Heaf2 wrote:Knocking it backwards is fine for me ...

So negative play is fine to you?
What is negative about that? You don't deserve a try if you allow the opposition get their hands on the ball legally.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 1:44 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
Heaf2 wrote:Knocking it backwards is fine for me ...

So negative play is fine to you?
What is negative about that? You don't deserve a try if you allow the opposition get their hands on the ball legally.

So a deliberate knock down when the ball goes forward is only a knock on then as the player got their hands on the ball legally but it went unfortunately forward?
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by marty2086 on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 1:48 pm

eirebilly wrote:I do not see it as easy as that. Both are intentionally knocking the ball down to stop a try scoring opportunity. The direction the ball travels should not determine the outcome of the act in my opinion.

If its deliberate then the player has known what he has wanted to do and played within the rules, not sure what the problem is

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by VinceWLB on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 1:52 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
Heaf2 wrote:Knocking it backwards is fine for me ...

So negative play is fine to you?
What is negative about that? You don't deserve a try if you allow the opposition get their hands on the ball legally.

The problem is when the opposition isn't even trying to grab the ball, just want to spoil the action.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 1:54 pm

marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I do not see it as easy as that. Both are intentionally knocking the ball down to stop a try scoring opportunity. The direction the ball travels should not determine the outcome of the act in my opinion.

If its deliberate then the player has known what he has wanted to do and played within the rules, not sure what the problem is

The problem, as I see it, is in both instances a player has made a calculated decision to knock the ball down to break down an oppositions attack. Whether or not the ball goes forward should not be looked at. It should be seen as deliberate and cynical play.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 1:54 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
Heaf2 wrote:Knocking it backwards is fine for me ...

So negative play is fine to you?
What is negative about that? You don't deserve a try if you allow the opposition get their hands on the ball legally.

So a deliberate knock down when the ball goes forward is only a knock on then as the player got their hands on the ball legally but it went unfortunately forward?
It doesn't go "unfortunately forward". If you are lunging out at the ball when you are facing the opponent's line, then it's almost always going to go forward unless you can catch it. It's a high risk play, and you take the consequences if you can't hang on for the intercept.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by VinceWLB on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 1:55 pm

You see rugby rules changing every year to adapt to the modern, faster game which promote running, positive rugby.
I hope this is one rule that will change in coming years..

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 1:57 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
Heaf2 wrote:Knocking it backwards is fine for me ...

So negative play is fine to you?
What is negative about that? You don't deserve a try if you allow the opposition get their hands on the ball legally.

So a deliberate knock down when the ball goes forward is only a knock on then as the player got their hands on the ball legally but it went unfortunately forward?
It doesn't go "unfortunately forward". If you are lunging out at the ball when you are facing the opponent's line, then it's almost always going to go forward unless you can catch it. It's a high risk play, and you take the consequences if you can't hang on for the intercept.

The action should be looked at, not the result is all I am saying. A deliberate knock down is a deliberate knock down. Its the same as penalising a player for their actions (taking someone out in the air) should be based on the action and not the outcome.
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 1:58 pm

eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I do not see it as easy as that. Both are intentionally knocking the ball down to stop a try scoring opportunity. The direction the ball travels should not determine the outcome of the act in my opinion.

If its deliberate then the player has known what he has wanted to do and played within the rules, not sure what the problem is

The problem, as I see it, is in both instances a player has made a calculated decision to knock the ball down to break down an oppositions attack. Whether or not the ball goes forward should not be looked at. It should be seen as deliberate and cynical play.


I understand your view - but disagree with it. If you knock the ball backwards I do not care whether it is up or down - backwards is the key thing as your team mates can get the ball. If however you deliberately knock it forwards - again I do not care if it is up or down it is an offence that should be penalised and if it prevents a try scoring opportunity carded, and if it stops a try probably being scored Penalty try and yellow card.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 1:59 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
Heaf2 wrote:Knocking it backwards is fine for me ...

So negative play is fine to you?
What is negative about that? You don't deserve a try if you allow the opposition get their hands on the ball legally.

So a deliberate knock down when the ball goes forward is only a knock on then as the player got their hands on the ball legally but it went unfortunately forward?
It doesn't go "unfortunately forward". If you are lunging out at the ball when you are facing the opponent's line, then it's almost always going to go forward unless you can catch it. It's a high risk play, and you take the consequences if you can't hang on for the intercept.

The action should be looked at, not the result is all I am saying. A deliberate knock down is a deliberate knock down. Its the same as penalising a player for their actions (taking someone out in the air) should be based on the action and not the outcome.

The thing is though that deliberate knock down is not an offence.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:00 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
Heaf2 wrote:Knocking it backwards is fine for me ...

So negative play is fine to you?
What is negative about that? You don't deserve a try if you allow the opposition get their hands on the ball legally.

The problem is when the opposition isn't even trying to grab the ball, just want to spoil the action.
Spoiling opposition possession is a central part of the sport.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by marty2086 on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:00 pm

eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I do not see it as easy as that. Both are intentionally knocking the ball down to stop a try scoring opportunity. The direction the ball travels should not determine the outcome of the act in my opinion.

If its deliberate then the player has known what he has wanted to do and played within the rules, not sure what the problem is

The problem, as I see it, is in both instances a player has made a calculated decision to knock the ball down to break down an oppositions attack. Whether or not the ball goes forward should not be looked at. It should be seen as deliberate and cynical play.


It doesn't matter if its deliberate and or cynical, the offence is the ball going forward the cynicism and deliberate nature just affect the scale of the offence

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:02 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
Heaf2 wrote:Knocking it backwards is fine for me ...

So negative play is fine to you?
What is negative about that? You don't deserve a try if you allow the opposition get their hands on the ball legally.

So a deliberate knock down when the ball goes forward is only a knock on then as the player got their hands on the ball legally but it went unfortunately forward?
It doesn't go "unfortunately forward". If you are lunging out at the ball when you are facing the opponent's line, then it's almost always going to go forward unless you can catch it. It's a high risk play, and you take the consequences if you can't hang on for the intercept.

The action should be looked at, not the result is all I am saying. A deliberate knock down is a deliberate knock down. Its the same as penalising a player for their actions (taking someone out in the air) should be based on the action and not the outcome.

The thing is though that deliberate knock down is not an offence.

In the instances I have said I have stated, I believe it should be an offence.
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by marty2086 on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:04 pm

eirebilly wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:
Heaf2 wrote:Knocking it backwards is fine for me ...

So negative play is fine to you?
What is negative about that? You don't deserve a try if you allow the opposition get their hands on the ball legally.

So a deliberate knock down when the ball goes forward is only a knock on then as the player got their hands on the ball legally but it went unfortunately forward?
It doesn't go "unfortunately forward". If you are lunging out at the ball when you are facing the opponent's line, then it's almost always going to go forward unless you can catch it. It's a high risk play, and you take the consequences if you can't hang on for the intercept.

The action should be looked at, not the result is all I am saying. A deliberate knock down is a deliberate knock down. Its the same as penalising a player for their actions (taking someone out in the air) should be based on the action and not the outcome.

The thing is though that deliberate knock down is not an offence.

In the instances I have said I have stated, I believe it should be an offence.

While it may be deliberate and cynical it is at least an attempt to regain possession, whereas a deliberate knock forward is an attempt to prevent the opposition from advancing

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by VinceWLB on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:06 pm

I remember years ago it was legal to slap the ball down from the opposition scrumhalf at a scrum. The rule changed. This is very similar to "knock downs" and need to be stamped out of the game, imo.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:07 pm

marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:

In the instances I have said I have stated, I believe it should be an offence.

While it may be deliberate and cynical it is at least an attempt to regain possession, whereas a deliberate knock forward is an attempt to prevent the opposition from advancing

No, a deliberate knock down that goes backwards is also an attempt the opposition from advancing...

As I said earlier, punish the act and not the outcome.
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:15 pm

eirebilly wrote:No, a deliberate knock down that goes backwards is also an attempt the opposition from advancing...
You are also trying to stop the opposition when you charge down a kick, or challenge at a lineout. The defender rarely expects to take the ball cleanly but has the opportunity to spoil opposition ball.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:21 pm

eirebilly - you see a deliberate knock down, and do not care if it is forwards or back. I see a deliberate knock forwards and do not care if it is up or down(the flip side for me is that a deliberate knock backwards is fine - do you view a deliberate knock upwards to be OK?). From that premise we will never agree.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:22 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
eirebilly wrote:No, a deliberate knock down that goes backwards is also an attempt the opposition from advancing...
You are also trying to stop the opposition when you charge down a kick, or challenge at a lineout. The defender rarely expects to take the ball cleanly but takes the opportunity to spoil opposition ball.

I have explained the line out and the competing in the air so wont do it again, you can read back and see my comments on them.

If you feel that a charge down is acceptable (which I do as it is in a contestable position) then surely you are now saying that a deliberate knock down that goes forward should not be a penalty as it is also an opportunity to spoil the opposition ball?
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:26 pm

LondonTiger wrote:eirebilly - you see a deliberate knock down, and do not care if it is forwards or back. I see a deliberate knock forwards and do not care if it is up or down(the flip side for me is that a deliberate knock backwards is fine - do you view a deliberate knock upwards to be OK?). From that premise we will never agree.

I see a deliberate knock up as an attempt to regain the ball (attempted interception).

I see deliberate knock downs that go backwards as fine if it is in an open contest but I see deliberate knock downs that go backwards in an attempt to break an opposition attack as not fine.

Maybe I should use the phrase "deliberate slap down" instead so that people understand my point better.
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:31 pm

eirebilly wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:eirebilly - you see a deliberate knock down, and do not care if it is forwards or back. I see a deliberate knock forwards and do not care if it is up or down(the flip side for me is that a deliberate knock backwards is fine - do you view a deliberate knock upwards to be OK?). From that premise we will never agree.

I see a deliberate knock up as an attempt to regain the ball (attempted interception).

I see deliberate knock downs that go backwards as fine if it is in an open contest but I see deliberate knock downs that go backwards in an attempt to break an opposition attack as not fine.

Maybe I should use the phrase "deliberate slap down" instead so that people understand my point better.

It does not matter how you phrase it - we have a fundamental difference in opinion that cannot be reconciled. I am happy with deliberately slapping the ball backwards, I am unhappy with deliberately slapping the ball forwards. I care about the movement relative to the try lines, I care not a jot about the movement with or against gravity.

At the moment the laws are a reflection of my views. The laws can change and may reflect your view - in which case I will believe they are wrong Very Happy


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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:33 pm

Fair dues LT. Nobody will ever see eye to eye on everything and it would make this place a pretty boring place if we did.

I am still right and you are wrong though Wink thumbsup
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by marty2086 on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:44 pm

[quote="eirebilly"]
marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:

In the instances I have said I have stated, I believe it should be an offence.

While it may be deliberate and cynical it is at least an attempt to regain possession, whereas a deliberate knock forward is an attempt to prevent the opposition from advancing

No, a deliberate knock down that goes backwards is also an attempt the opposition from advancing...

As I said earlier, punish the act and not the outcome.[/quote

By your logic any fumble should be penalised too

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:53 pm

marty2086 wrote:

By your logic any fumble should be penalised too

That is a rather odd assumption to make. Its as if you have read nothing I have written... In what way is a fumble remotely in the same field as a deliberate knock down?

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by marty2086 on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:55 pm

eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

By your logic any fumble should be penalised too

That is a rather odd assumption to make. Its as if you have read nothing I have written... In what way is a fumble remotely in the same field as a deliberate knock down?


Because you claim the direction the ball travels doesn't matter, why should a player who happens to fumble forward be penalised and not one who fumbles backwards?

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 2:59 pm

marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

By your logic any fumble should be penalised too

That is a rather odd assumption to make. Its as if you have read nothing I have written... In what way is a fumble remotely in the same field as a deliberate knock down?


Because you claim the direction the ball travels doesn't matter, why should a player who happens to fumble forward be penalised and not one who fumbles backwards?

Seriously, read what I have written and the context my point has been made and actually try to understand what I am saying.
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by marty2086 on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 3:10 pm

eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

By your logic any fumble should be penalised too

That is a rather odd assumption to make. Its as if you have read nothing I have written... In what way is a fumble remotely in the same field as a deliberate knock down?


Because you claim the direction the ball travels doesn't matter, why should a player who happens to fumble forward be penalised and not one who fumbles backwards?

Seriously, read what I have written and the context my point has been made and actually try to understand what I am saying.

I have, Im merely pointing out the foolishness off it

Its already been pointed out that slapping the ball away at the lineout happens all the time, you claim thats different well sometimes sh!t happens

Lealiifano on Friday night saw the ball bounce out of his hands when he put it down short of the line, it bounced forward before coming back towards Ulster. Why is that an offence when if it is a few degrees difference its straight up and not an offence?

Why is a knocking accidentally competing for a high ball?

How many players try slapping the ball backwards but fail? Why punish someone if they execute a slap down properly to regain possession?

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Guest on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 3:13 pm

Accidental offside when a player bumps into a teammate and is adjudged to have led to obstruction of the opposition, resulting in a penalty against in front of their own posts - that's a law I dislike! Seems overly harsh for an often innocuous piece of play. But laws are laws I guess Wink

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 3:19 pm

Marty, again you fail to see the context of what is being said.

I think I have made my points very clear (very sorry you do not seem able to read in context) and many others have responded with their points which I do not agree with but I can respect them as they actually counter what I say.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by marty2086 on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 3:25 pm

No billy I have countered it, you just refuse to acknowledge it. I have highlighted numerous circumstances where the mere fall or bounce of the ball determines offence or not but that seems beyond you

It's clear what you don't like, the act itself but it's in limited circumstances you don't like it as there are occasions where its not cynical but a genuine attempt to retrieve possession.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 4:20 pm

marty2086 wrote:No billy I have countered it, you just refuse to acknowledge it. I have highlighted numerous circumstances where the mere fall or bounce of the ball determines offence or not but that seems beyond you

It's clear what you don't like, the act itself but it's in limited circumstances you don't like it as there are occasions where its not cynical but a genuine attempt to retrieve possession.

I honestly cant see anything that you have countered except that you think it is ok and that you assume that my logic is that fumbles should be penalised when I have clearly provided instances and context in my points. The other point you made (re Ulster game) so far wide of the mark as to what I am saying that I can only assume that I have not made myself clear enough for you to understand.

Anyways, you have your opinion and I have mine.
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Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 5:22 pm

It think it would help, billy, if you could find a video of the kind of knock back you think should be penalized. I know that's not an easy request, because you are reliant on something you remember being on YouTube. Still, if you do happen upon one, then please post it.

To me, it seems like you think the direction a ball goes when it's knocked down is random, so you can't see why an act should be treated differently just for the rub of the green.

I don't think it is particularly random. If a defender is facing the opponent's try line when he lunges for a ball, then it's no mean feat if he can knock the ball backwards towards his own tryline. It's also good skill if he can actually catch it. The easiest thing to do, if he can get a hand to the ball, at all, is knock it forward. That's an illegal act, and, to make sure more players don't take that risk when they know they have a slim-to-zero chance of controlling the ball, it's a penalty offence, rather than just a scrum.

Consider the other direction. An attacker makes a break, and passes to a team mate. Meanwhile, a defender has raced back to get between the two players, reads the pass, and lunges at the ball. He's facing his own tryline, so contact with the ball will probably propel it backwards. It's not an offence under the laws and I wouldn't ever want to see that penalized.

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Re: Deliberate knock downs

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