Deliberate knock downs

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Go down

Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 11:39 am

First topic message reminder :



Last night in the Exeter - Glasgow match, Glasgow were on the attack and an Exeter player deliberately knocked the ball down (went backwards) when if the pass had gone to hand, Glasgow would have scored. Had the ball travelled forward last night, could the Exeter player have been penalised, shown a card and possibly have a penalty try awarded for this act?

Is there such a difference in which way the ball goes? It seems that a deliberate knockdown with the ball going backwards is acceptable but a deliberate knockdown with the ball going forward is a penalty and a card.

To me, I see no difference in these as either way the ball bounces could result in potentially stopping try scoring opportunities.

Would really appreciate if someone (with a lot more knowledge of rugby laws than myself) could explain the difference.
avatar
eirebilly

Posts : 23138
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 47
Location : Holland

Back to top Go down


Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 5:38 pm

I said above that the prime example of what I mean was in the Exeter - Glasgow game last night Rugby Fan.

I fully understand that it is within the rules but I feel the rules should be changed. I do not think that a ball falls randomly forward I just do not see why a deliberate knock down that goes forward is deemed a penalty and possible yellow card when the same action with the ball going backwards is not. It is the same offense just punished differently by the outcome.
avatar
eirebilly

Posts : 23138
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 47
Location : Holland

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 6:14 pm

eirebilly wrote:I said above that the prime example of what I mean was in the Exeter - Glasgow game last night Rugby Fan.
Sure, but can you tell us where it happened in the match, so we can look at it?

Rugby Fan

Posts : 4724
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by hawalsh on Sun 15 Oct 2017, 6:33 pm

The ball going down is not the offence, the ball going forward is the offence.  The only aspect that the vertical trajectory can come into play with, is once the forward offence has been committed, and is the degree of the offence.

You're saying that you want to create a new law that penalises the ball being knocked down, but have accepted that the ball is legitimately knocked down in other areas of the game, so want to make it contingent on a competitive element.

Even if that was something people wanted to pursue, that would present real difficulty in effective exclusive codification and referee judgement.

If the incident in the the Exeter match you're highlighting is the one I'm thinking of, then the ball was knocked backwards and then regathered before Glasgow.  With your new law, that could surely be argued as a competitive winning of the ball.

I think that if you wanted to stop this kind of legitimate intervention, you would have to try and think of a more clearly definebale element than the competitve nature.

Also, what would happen if the player hit the ball up/flat and backwards?  A chasing player intervening in the middle of a pass after catching up with a breakout play for instance.  The same outcome on the attacking play, but no offence, or would you try and make the law include all backward motion?

hawalsh

Posts : 334
Join date : 2011-08-28

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 9:19 am

I thought the Simon Zebo knock down was a dead cert try.

There should have been a pen try and a yellow card. No matter which way the ball went afterwards.

LordDowlais

Posts : 12021
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Scottrf on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 9:47 am

eirebilly wrote:I said above that the prime example of what I mean was in the Exeter - Glasgow game last night Rugby Fan.

I fully understand that it is within the rules but I feel the rules should be changed. I do not think that a ball falls randomly forward I just do not see why a deliberate knock down that goes forward is deemed a penalty and possible yellow card when the same action with the ball going backwards is not. It is the same offense just punished differently by the outcome.
Because it's not the same action. Knock on is an offense because the ball isn't allowed to go forward from your hands, not because you're knocking it rather than catching it.

A pass that goes forward isn't allowed, a pass that goes backward is. Is that the same action?

A tackle that is high is a penalty, a tackle that isn't high is not a penalty.

Knocking a ball backwards is just a way to get possession to your team, it isn't negative play. It's a central part of lineouts and competing for a loose ball.

Scottrf

Posts : 13766
Join date : 2011-01-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 10:17 am

Scottrf wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I said above that the prime example of what I mean was in the Exeter - Glasgow game last night Rugby Fan.

I fully understand that it is within the rules but I feel the rules should be changed. I do not think that a ball falls randomly forward I just do not see why a deliberate knock down that goes forward is deemed a penalty and possible yellow card when the same action with the ball going backwards is not. It is the same offense just punished differently by the outcome.
Because it's not the same action. Knock on is an offense because the ball isn't allowed to go forward from your hands, not because you're knocking it rather than catching it.

A pass that goes forward isn't allowed, a pass that goes backward is. Is that the same action?

A tackle that is high is a penalty, a tackle that isn't high is not a penalty.

Knocking a ball backwards is just a way to get possession to your team, it isn't negative play. It's a central part of lineouts and competing for a loose ball.

The difference is, that whether you have a real chance to catch the ball or not. Just like the tackle, it was the same in the Toulon V Scarlets game yesterday, Tadhg Beirne was penalised for catching the outside half after a charge down, even though he was commited, he never really had any chance so there was no need for him to dive at the player like he did, result, penalty.

Simon Zebo did not have a hope in hell of intercepting the ball for his "knock down", so why should that go unpunished ?

LordDowlais

Posts : 12021
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 11:25 am

LordDowlais wrote:Simon Zebo did not have a hope in hell of intercepting the ball for his "knock down", so why should that go unpunished ?
It didn't go unpunished. A knock-on is a scrum offence but the referee awarded a penalty. He could, and probably should, have given Zebo a yellow but that's not the fault of the law book.

It wasn't a random outcome that the ball went forward. Zebo wasn't in the right position to knock the ball back. If he had been, then it would have been good anticipation rather than good luck. Still, it's risky just to slap the ball back so close to your line. Jesse Mogg did that yesterday and Leinster immediately pounced on it to score.

Rugby Fan

Posts : 4724
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Fuzzy Dunlop on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 11:48 am

I doubt there's gonna be any changing of minds in this thread. Exactly like LT pointed out, we're dealing with a fundamental difference of opinion rather than something like a disagreement over an interpretation of a law.

I'm firmly in the camp that think a player should be able to deliberately slap the ball down as long as it goes backwards, and I'm someone who usually stands out for how harshly I like deliberate knock ons to be punished.

Fuzzy Dunlop

Posts : 608
Join date : 2013-10-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:05 pm

eirebilly wrote:I just do not agree with the laws then as I feel anytime a pass is deliberately knocked down (whether it travel forwards or backwards) interfering with a play that could potentially lead to a try should be seen as cynical play and be penalised.

It is not competing for the ball, it is deliberately stopping a play.

I'd disagree and use two examples to explain why I come up with a different response.

The first being a lineout, when someone is lifted to compete defending in the lineout they could choose to bat the ball down to their own scrum half. In competing for the ball they might knock it on. But even in a lineout if someone deliberately batted the ball forward that could be deemed a professional foul and penalised. The first instance to me is good play but as you'd describe is a deliberate batting down of a ball, the second is a fair contest and a scrum, the third is a deliberate act of foul play and could be penalised.

The second is a kick-restart or up-n-under. The player from the kicking team could do any of those three actions again, compete by batting the ball back to his players, compete but knock it on, or deliberately knock the ball on.

Even taking the premise that
interfering with a play that could potentially lead to a try should be seen as a cynical play and be penalised
would mean that any interception by a defender should be seen as a cynical play and be penalised.

thebandwagonsociety

Posts : 2323
Join date : 2011-06-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by RugbyFan100 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:16 pm

I totally agree with Eirebilly here. I've said it a few time that it is cynical and the player makes no attempt to catch the ball. It's a negative disruption to the attacking team.

However...try writing a law that captures this negative play. I can't see how you do it.

If a defender jumps up in his in goal area and slaps down an up and under by the opposition, resulting in the ball going backwards to his team mate who clears it via a touchline kick....we all say what a magnificent piece of defensive skill. But under Eirebilly's proposition - that would be illegal.

RugbyFan100

Posts : 802
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by RugbyFan100 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I thought the Simon Zebo knock down was a dead cert try.

There should have been a pen try and a yellow card. No matter which way the ball went afterwards.


RugbyFan100

Posts : 802
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Scottrf on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:20 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:If a defender jumps up in his in goal area and slaps down an up and under by the opposition, resulting in the ball going backwards to his team mate who clears it via a touchline kick....we all say what a magnificent piece of defensive skill. But under Eirebilly's proposition - that would be illegal.
And if the ball comes loose and a player knocks it back towards a team mate I say great anticipation and workrate. I don't see it as negative.

Scottrf

Posts : 13766
Join date : 2011-01-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:27 pm

I think that I must not be making myself very clear here. I am not against players slapping the ball in competition, Line outs or high takes.

I am against the deliberate slap down of passes when players are not in any position to complete an intercept. It is quite easy to distinguish these as players are already getting penalised (carded in some situations) when the ball goes forwards off a deliberate slap down. For me, I would like to see this if players also do this and the ball goes backwards as it directly infringing with play.

Again (as I have said numerous times) I must stress, this is only for situations involving passes from attacking teams being slapped down deliberately and not any other aspect of the game. It is very clear to see when it happen, thankfully not a hell of a lot but is very clear all the same.

Punish the act and not the outcome of the act.

I really hope I make myself clear this time.

As for Zebo on the weekend, should have been a penalty try and yellow card for him.
avatar
eirebilly

Posts : 23138
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 47
Location : Holland

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by RugbyFan100 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:30 pm

Scottrf wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:If a defender jumps up in his in goal area and slaps down an up and under by the opposition, resulting in the ball going backwards to his team mate who clears it via a touchline kick....we all say what a magnificent piece of defensive skill. But under Eirebilly's proposition - that would be illegal.
And if the ball comes loose and a player knocks it back towards a team mate I say great anticipation and workrate. I don't see it as negative.

Exactly. The only thing I can think of writing into the laws is that a "slapping of the ball backwards with no attempt to catch the ball from an opposition pass, is a penalty." But that's weirdly specific, and I don't think World Rugby would ever consider it as it would make for some contentious decisions.

RugbyFan100

Posts : 802
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:30 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I thought the Simon Zebo knock down was a dead cert try.

There should have been a pen try and a yellow card. No matter which way the ball went afterwards.


Many people on here see this as being acceptable if the ball goes backwards. Result, no try, no penalty and a piece of deliberate and cynical play gets applauded...
avatar
eirebilly

Posts : 23138
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 47
Location : Holland

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Scottrf on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:30 pm

eirebilly wrote:I think that I must not be making myself very clear here. I am not against players slapping the ball in competition, Line outs or high takes.

I am against the deliberate slap down of passes when players are not in any position to complete an intercept. It is quite easy to distinguish these as players are already getting penalised (carded in some situations) when the ball goes forwards off a deliberate slap down. For me, I would like to see this if players also do this and the ball goes backwards as it directly infringing with play.

Again (as I have said numerous times) I must stress, this is only for situations involving passes from attacking teams being slapped down deliberately and not any other aspect of the game. It is very clear to see when it happen, thankfully not a hell of a lot but is very clear all the same.

Punish the act and not the outcome of the act.

I really hope I make myself clear this time.

As for Zebo on the weekend, should have been a penalty try and yellow card for him.

I think people bring up the other examples because that's the same act (knocking a ball back). Your problem is with a specific incidence of the act. How would the law look?

Scottrf

Posts : 13766
Join date : 2011-01-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by RugbyFan100 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:33 pm

Thoughts on this:

RugbyFan100

Posts : 802
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:40 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:Thoughts on this:

That is where my argument does fail somewhat but sadly I do have to say that at the end of the day, that would have to be seen as cynical play under what I have described.

Thanks RugbyFan100, that is the best counter argument proposed on this thumbsup
avatar
eirebilly

Posts : 23138
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 47
Location : Holland

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by RugbyFan100 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:41 pm

No worries, I think it shows how difficult it is to police, because any such instance will be subjective and reliant on semantics etc.

RugbyFan100

Posts : 802
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:42 pm

Scottrf wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I think that I must not be making myself very clear here. I am not against players slapping the ball in competition, Line outs or high takes.

I am against the deliberate slap down of passes when players are not in any position to complete an intercept. It is quite easy to distinguish these as players are already getting penalised (carded in some situations) when the ball goes forwards off a deliberate slap down. For me, I would like to see this if players also do this and the ball goes backwards as it directly infringing with play.

Again (as I have said numerous times) I must stress, this is only for situations involving passes from attacking teams being slapped down deliberately and not any other aspect of the game. It is very clear to see when it happen, thankfully not a hell of a lot but is very clear all the same.

Punish the act and not the outcome of the act.

I really hope I make myself clear this time.

As for Zebo on the weekend, should have been a penalty try and yellow card for him.

I think people bring up the other examples because that's the same act (knocking a ball back). Your problem is with a specific incidence of the act. How would the law look?

To me, lineouts and competitions for the ball in the air are up for grabs as no team is in true possession. An attacking team passing the ball is in full possession of the ball and it is a deliberate act to stop the game.
avatar
eirebilly

Posts : 23138
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 47
Location : Holland

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Scottrf on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:44 pm

eirebilly wrote:To me, lineouts and competitions for the ball in the air are up for grabs as no team is in true possession. An attacking team passing the ball is in full possession of the ball and it is a deliberate act to stop the game.

A deliberate act to gain possession, not stop the game. But we are going round in circles a bit.

Scottrf

Posts : 13766
Join date : 2011-01-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Heaf2 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:45 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:Thoughts on this:

Nothing wrong with that for me.

Heaf2

Posts : 234
Join date : 2017-09-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Fuzzy Dunlop on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:46 pm

eirebilly wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I thought the Simon Zebo knock down was a dead cert try.

There should have been a pen try and a yellow card. No matter which way the ball went afterwards.


Many people on here see this as being acceptable if the ball goes backwards. Result, no try, no penalty and a piece of deliberate and cynical play gets applauded...

If Zebo was able to knock that backwards it'd require an insane level of athleticism that should be rewarded by preventing the pass getting to the man. In fact, it's very unlikely that he'd be able to slap it backwards without being in a position in which a straight up interception is easier, which is why I suspect you won't find many clips of passes being slapped backwards where the defender is not facing his own touchline.

Fuzzy Dunlop

Posts : 608
Join date : 2013-10-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:46 pm

eirebilly wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I thought the Simon Zebo knock down was a dead cert try.

There should have been a pen try and a yellow card. No matter which way the ball went afterwards.


Many people on here see this as being acceptable if the ball goes backwards. Result, no try, no penalty and a piece of deliberate and cynical play gets applauded...

TBH if he knocks it backwards the ball is regathered by the attacking winger and a try is scored.

As it was (and first time I have seen this) Zebo is in no position to knock it backwards, thus I agree it should be a YC and a PT as it is a deliberate knock on. If he is in a position to knock it back, he probably intercepts instead and runs to the other end.

LondonTiger

Posts : 17222
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:47 pm

Beaten by Fuzzy Very Happy

LondonTiger

Posts : 17222
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Heaf2 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:52 pm

Agree with the above - Munster got off lightly there ...

Heaf2

Posts : 234
Join date : 2017-09-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by eirebilly on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 12:56 pm

Lads, its just me getting a bit annoyed with the amount of deliberate and cynical play entering the game and going seemingly unpunished.

Its like the play acting, milking of penalties and players asking referee's to card fellow professionals. Maybe I am too hypercritical thumbsup
avatar
eirebilly

Posts : 23138
Join date : 2011-02-09
Age : 47
Location : Holland

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Pete330v2 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 2:23 pm

If something is legal how can it be cynical Wink

Pete330v2

Posts : 3361
Join date : 2012-05-04

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 2:51 pm

I think we can all agree that the ref got the Zebo incident wrong, and that there are a lot of grey area's with this. I would suggest that the incident in the Ireland and France clip is not even negative or cynical, in fact it was a positive move to win possession back.

LordDowlais

Posts : 12021
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by VinceWLB on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 9:58 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
If a defender jumps up in his in goal area and slaps down an up and under by the opposition, resulting in the ball going backwards to his team mate who clears it via a touchline kick....we all say what a magnificent piece of defensive skill. But under Eirebilly's proposition - that would be illegal.

It's interesting you brought that up, a good few years back i remember a similar situation when a player slapped the ball backward out of play after an up and under in the in goal area. Referee deemed that cynical play and at least a penalty (if not yellow card + pen try, can't quite remember..) was given.

Now if that was deemed cynical, i'm sure a slap down on a pass can also be deemed a cynical offense, yes, even under the current regime.

VinceWLB

Posts : 3687
Join date : 2012-10-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 10:22 pm

VinceWLB wrote:It's interesting you brought that up, a good few years back i remember a similar situation when a player slapped the ball backward out of play after an up and under in the in goal area. Referee deemed that cynical play and at least a penalty (if not yellow card + pen try, can't quite remember..) was given.
Deliberately throwing, or batting the ball out of play has been a penalty for a long time. Nothing to do with the direction the ball goes.

Rugby Fan

Posts : 4724
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by VinceWLB on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 10:32 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:It's interesting you brought that up, a good few years back i remember a similar situation when a player slapped the ball backward out of play after an up and under in the in goal area. Referee deemed that cynical play and at least a penalty (if not yellow card + pen try, can't quite remember..) was given.
Deliberately throwing, or batting the ball out of play has been a penalty for a long time. Nothing to do with the direction the ball goes.

Thanks for clarifying that up. So how come a deliberate slap down isn't deemed a cynical offense as well. Similarly to the player slapping the ball out of play, this just serve the purpose of ruining the action without trying to catch or do anything with the ball!

VinceWLB

Posts : 3687
Join date : 2012-10-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Heaf2 on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 11:41 pm

Because play can continue as in the example posted by RF100 ...

Heaf2

Posts : 234
Join date : 2017-09-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Guest on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 8:47 am

I've watched that clip above over and over and (perhaps because of the small size) struggle a bit to see Zebo knock the ball forward. It almost looks like the other Munster play dislodges the ball in the tackle. Although I've seen another clip that shows Zebo's contact a bit clearer, could it be that the ref also thought the other player dislodged the ball in the tackle? Did he go to the TMO?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 9:05 am

Griff wrote:I've watched that clip above over and over and (perhaps because of the small size) struggle a bit to see Zebo knock the ball forward.  It almost looks like the other Munster play dislodges the ball in the tackle.  Although I've seen another clip that shows Zebo's contact a bit clearer, could it be that the ref also thought the other player dislodged the ball in the tackle?  Did he go to the TMO?
It did go to the TMO but, if the ref had thought the ball was dislodged in the tackle, then he would not have awarded a penalty.

Rugby Fan

Posts : 4724
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Guest on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 10:25 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Griff wrote:I've watched that clip above over and over and (perhaps because of the small size) struggle a bit to see Zebo knock the ball forward.  It almost looks like the other Munster play dislodges the ball in the tackle.  Although I've seen another clip that shows Zebo's contact a bit clearer, could it be that the ref also thought the other player dislodged the ball in the tackle?  Did he go to the TMO?
It did go to the TMO but, if the ref had thought the ball was dislodged in the tackle, then he would not have awarded a penalty.

Cheers RF. Apologies I haven't seen the game. Just the clips above. Did not know a penalty was given.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Pete330v2 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 11:58 am

VinceWLB wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
If a defender jumps up in his in goal area and slaps down an up and under by the opposition, resulting in the ball going backwards to his team mate who clears it via a touchline kick....we all say what a magnificent piece of defensive skill. But under Eirebilly's proposition - that would be illegal.

It's interesting you brought that up, a good few years back i remember a similar situation when a player slapped the ball backward out of play after an up and under in the in goal area. Referee deemed that cynical play and at least a penalty (if not yellow card + pen try, can't quite remember..) was given.

Now if that was deemed cynical, i'm sure a slap down on a pass can also be deemed a cynical offense, yes, even under the current regime.

Slapping a ball back to a team mate isn't illegal, slapping the ball into touch is. If it's an illegal act it's a cynical way of stopping your opponents to gain any advantage. If it's within the laws it's not cynical.
I believe the player who slapped the ball out that time was Tommy Bowe, he was yellow carded for it just moments before half time in that game. Who was it against????

Pete330v2

Posts : 3361
Join date : 2012-05-04

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 12:17 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:

Slapping a ball back to a team mate isn't illegal, slapping the ball into touch is. If it's an illegal act it's a cynical way of stopping your opponents to gain any advantage. If it's within the laws it's not cynical.
I believe the player who slapped the ball out that time was Tommy Bowe, he was yellow carded for it just moments before half time in that game. Who was it against????

Whether a piece of "cynical" play is against the laws is subjective. One person might see it as intelligent play. One person might not. But you can still be cynical and legal I'd wager.

Soccer players taking the ball into the corner of the pitch to waste a few seconds when their team is winning 1-0 is cynical. It's not against the laws though.

I'm sure there are examples in rugby. Keeping the ball tight? Going for an impossible penalty kick to posts instead of kicking to for touch when in you're own half to waste time? It's a matter of opinion really.

RugbyFan100

Posts : 802
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 12:54 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:I believe the player who slapped the ball out that time was Tommy Bowe,

Unless you are on about a separate incident, then I was at the game when Justin Marshal done it whilst playing for Ospreys. He along with Tommy Bowe were jumping against a Cardiff Blues player in the in goal area, and Justin Marshal slapped the ball over the dead ball line.

The ref gave a pen try and a yellow for Justin Marshal.

LordDowlais

Posts : 12021
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 1:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:I believe the player who slapped the ball out that time was Tommy Bowe,

Unless you are on about a separate incident, then I was at the game when Justin Marshal done it whilst playing for Ospreys. He along with Tommy Bowe were jumping against a Cardiff Blues player in the in goal area, and Justin Marshal slapped the ball over the dead ball line.

The ref gave a pen try and a yellow for Justin Marshal.

Unlike this incident that was never punished by the "best referee in the world". Earls was probably lucky the ball didn't go straight out of play.


RugbyFan100

Posts : 802
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 1:37 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:...Whether a piece of "cynical" play is against the laws is subjective. One person might see it as intelligent play. One person might not. But you can still be cynical and legal I'd wager...
That's true, but the best way to support the idea that knocking down a pass legally is a cynical bit of play would be to have an example.

eirebilly thinks there was such an incident in the Exeter Glasgow match. If you are reading this billy, then can you point out roughly when it took place? The full match is on YouTube (for now) in the two parts below:






Rugby Fan

Posts : 4724
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 2:30 pm

I think the incident Billy's referring to came quite early in the first half, when Glasgow made a break and Henry Slade knocked a pass backwards (he may have regathered the ball himself afterwards). He'd been beaten and was facing his own tryline.

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 22558
Join date : 2011-02-01
Age : 39
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Pete330v2 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 2:41 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:

Slapping a ball back to a team mate isn't illegal, slapping the ball into touch is. If it's an illegal act it's a cynical way of stopping your opponents to gain any advantage. If it's within the laws it's not cynical.
I believe the player who slapped the ball out that time was Tommy Bowe, he was yellow carded for it just moments before half time in that game. Who was it against????

Whether a piece of "cynical" play is against the laws is subjective. One person might see it as intelligent play. One person might not. But you can still be cynical and legal I'd wager.

Soccer players taking the ball into the corner of the pitch to waste a few seconds when their team is winning 1-0 is cynical. It's not against the laws though.

I'm sure there are examples in rugby. Keeping the ball tight? Going for an impossible penalty kick to posts instead of kicking to for touch when in you're own half to waste time? It's a matter of opinion really.

So if a team gets a penalty with only a few minutes on the clock and their outhalf purposefully takes all the time allowed to take the kick, is that cynical despite being in the laws?

Pete330v2

Posts : 3361
Join date : 2012-05-04

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Pete330v2 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 2:49 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:I believe the player who slapped the ball out that time was Tommy Bowe,

Unless you are on about a separate incident, then I was at the game when Justin Marshal done it whilst playing for Ospreys. He along with Tommy Bowe were jumping against a Cardiff Blues player in the in goal area, and Justin Marshal slapped the ball over the dead ball line.

The ref gave a pen try and a yellow for Justin Marshal.

No it was an international, something tells me it was Ireland v Wales and it was right on the stroke of half time. I've tried searching for it but can't find the actual incident.

Pete330v2

Posts : 3361
Join date : 2012-05-04

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 2:52 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:

Slapping a ball back to a team mate isn't illegal, slapping the ball into touch is. If it's an illegal act it's a cynical way of stopping your opponents to gain any advantage. If it's within the laws it's not cynical.
I believe the player who slapped the ball out that time was Tommy Bowe, he was yellow carded for it just moments before half time in that game. Who was it against????

Whether a piece of "cynical" play is against the laws is subjective. One person might see it as intelligent play. One person might not. But you can still be cynical and legal I'd wager.

Soccer players taking the ball into the corner of the pitch to waste a few seconds when their team is winning 1-0 is cynical. It's not against the laws though.

I'm sure there are examples in rugby. Keeping the ball tight? Going for an impossible penalty kick to posts instead of kicking to for touch when in you're own half to waste time? It's a matter of opinion really.

So if a team gets a penalty with only a few minutes on the clock and their outhalf purposefully takes all the time allowed to take the kick, is that cynical despite being in the laws?

No. Not really, as he might have taken all the time anyway at any stage in the match.

It is cynical however, if he attempts the kick at goal on his own 22. That's just my opinion.

RugbyFan100

Posts : 802
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 2:54 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:I believe the player who slapped the ball out that time was Tommy Bowe,

Unless you are on about a separate incident, then I was at the game when Justin Marshal done it whilst playing for Ospreys. He along with Tommy Bowe were jumping against a Cardiff Blues player in the in goal area, and Justin Marshal slapped the ball over the dead ball line.

The ref gave a pen try and a yellow for Justin Marshal.

No it was an international, something tells me it was Ireland v Wales and it was right on the stroke of half time. I've tried searching for it but can't find the actual incident.

Ah OK. Fair enough. I cannot remember that one. OK

LordDowlais

Posts : 12021
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 2:56 pm

It's this:

I can see Eirebilly's point. It is cynical but within the laws unfortunately.


RugbyFan100

Posts : 802
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 2:59 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I think the incident Billy's referring to came quite early in the first half, when Glasgow made a break and Henry Slade knocked a pass backwards (he may have regathered the ball himself afterwards). He'd been beaten and was facing his own tryline.

Had a quick flick through the early stages but couldn't see it. Slade did get penalized for a deliberate knock-on, which gave Glasgow the field position for their first try.

Rugby Fan

Posts : 4724
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 2:59 pm

He's run a blocking line on an attacker and got in the way. Some may not expect a player to do that...I would!

No 7&1/2

Posts : 15341
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 3:13 pm

I don't have a problem with it. I'm sure he's not obliged to just watch the ball go past him.

Luckless Pedestrian

Posts : 22558
Join date : 2011-02-01
Age : 39
Location : Newport

Back to top Go down

Re: Deliberate knock downs

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum