Ulster Rugby 2017-18

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Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 12 Oct 2017, 2:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

Rory Best (hamstring)
Marcell Coetzee (knee)
Craig Gilroy (back)
Chris Henry (larynx)
Rob Lyttle (shoulder)
Al O'Connor (concussion)
Jared Payne (headaches)
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Nick Timoney (ankle)
Schalk van der Merwe (shoulder)

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by clivemcl on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 4:10 pm

If it’s Carberry on loan for rest of season and Supoaga next season id be over the moon.


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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Artful_Dodger on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 4:13 pm

Just been told Sopoaga is out of contract with the Highlanders in August, so its conceivable that we could have him lined up for next season.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by theslosty on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 4:25 pm

Sopoaga sounds fanciful but Carbery is even more unlikely surely... how silly would Leinster look giving him away if Sexton (or Rob Kearney) gets a knock before e.g. a crucial European semi-final?
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Don Alfonso on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 7:28 pm

Dalton out with throat infection. Shame.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Pete330v2 on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 7:35 pm

The lima Sopoaga rumour is obviously just that, rumour and conjecture but it the one name that would make some sense. I'd gladly take The Beaver but if we were looking for someone for the next couple of seasons the younger man would make more sense. Who knows......well Bryn does.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by neilthom7 on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 7:39 pm

If you don't want to get very angry with the IRFU for forcing out a player who loves this place then you probably shouldn't watch this interview. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42467388

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Pete330v2 on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 7:51 pm

neilthom7 wrote:If you don't want to get very angry with the IRFU for forcing out a player who loves this place then you probably shouldn't watch this interview. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42467388

That makes dust be in my eyes Sad Sad Sad Sad

Almost as sad is how Ulster are performing right now, we're gash

Ludik has a fair bit of cash on the Connacht win by the looks of it

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Artful_Dodger on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 7:53 pm

Ludik is not a 13.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by clivemcl on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 8:09 pm

Is tonight the night where we all realise why all Kiss hasn’t been picking Cave and Trimble?

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Redman on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 8:27 pm

Cave certainly. Nelson too. Why on earth is he booting the ball long at 39:50 when you’re behind and you’ll be playing into the wind in the second half.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Pete330v2 on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 8:43 pm

We are officially the 4th Irish Province. Can we now receive the same favourable treatment that Connacht had when they were utter tom-kite?

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 8:44 pm

All a bit quiet
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 8:48 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:We are officially the 4th Irish Province. Can we now receive the same favourable treatment that Connacht had when they were utter tom-kite?

No problem.  

1. Please send any worthwhile players to other provinces.
2. Reduce your budget in line with our expectations, not yours.  
3. Replace all your SA players with Nz/Fiji players.
4. Wait five years. We’ll be in touch.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 8:54 pm

Connacht usually reserve that type of frenzy for Leinster. Bit of a beating in all possible ways.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 8:57 pm

Jeez lads. That’s a bit of a shambles

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Pete330v2 on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 9:07 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:We are officially the 4th Irish Province. Can we now receive the same favourable treatment that Connacht had when they were utter tom-kite?

No problem.  

1. Please send any worthwhile players to other provinces.
2. Reduce your budget in line with our expectations, not yours.  
3. Replace all your SA players with Nz/Fiji players.
4.  Wait five years.  We’ll be in touch.  

1. The only worthwhile player we have is a Leinster/Connacht reject.
2. We could reduce our budget my ejecting the expensive, injured players.
3. Have you seen our SA players? Bring on the change.
4. We'll be waiting 20 years if this continues.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by wolfball on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 9:08 pm

At the match with my young Munster playing brother in law and we can’t believe the softness of the Ulster pack. So delighted how we are playing but it’s shocking how little fight Ulster are putting up.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 9:16 pm

Can’t believe TOH hasn’t had a chance in an Irish jersey.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Redman on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 9:35 pm

If we’re going to send kids teams to lose then can we send proper kids teams? Cave, Nelson, Warwick, Herbst, Ludek, Reidy and Ross were all dreadful. At least the likes of McPhillips, Jones and Lyttle looked like they were trying. Same for Gilroy, Henderson and Cooney.

Just seems like the squad mentality was “we’re going to lose this one and that’s ok because the coaching ticket have sent that message.” Young players still treated it as a chance, Gilroy and a few others are playing for the Ireland squad come February but the rest ???

I’ve said it before. Ulster are not a professional organisation. A professional club would be docking wages for that performance.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by The Great Aukster on Sat 23 Dec 2017, 10:11 pm

Congratulations to Connacht. A hardened focused team against a soft clueless one.

Bryn had better deliver a decent 10 because he is NOT going to be forgiven for signing Schalk... when Warwick went off the scrum disintegrated.
Andrew had one of his worst games, and worryingly Herbst had pretty much his usual game. Diack was yet again underwhelming and Henderson was the only forward to come away with any credit. Even then Hendo looked lethargic and unwilling to join the maul defence - surely that isn't a Gibbes tactic? Reidy put himself about but the backrow were lightweight and overpowered by the Connacht lads.

Moore and Murphy might be on their way but Ulster need at least three more forwards before they stand a chance to cover their normal injury rate. If Ulster had too many Test call-ups (two or three) they would be looking at losing games like this by 50.


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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 12:28 am

clivemcl wrote:Is tonight the night where we all realise why all Kiss hasn’t been picking Cave and Trimble?

No disrespect Clive but if you think Cave and Trimble are the problem you don't have a bloody clue

Lets start with 2 joke LH's
A TH brought in to enhance Ireland who isn't even good enough to start for Ulster
A 6 who is quite frankly a total waste of space

A back three player playing at 10
A 13 playing at 12
A back three player playing at 13
A winger playing at 15
I know this is a bit left field but what about playing players in their best position

Well down Jones, McPhillips and Lyttle you all should have been starting.
McPhillips was much better than I expected and fair play to him

vDM was and always has been a total pudding - a disgrace

My overall opinion is Kiss - 'for God sake go !!!!!'

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Artful_Dodger on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 12:51 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
clivemcl wrote:Is tonight the night where we all realise why all Kiss hasn’t been picking Cave and Trimble?

No disrespect Clive but if you think Cave and Trimble are the problem you don't have a bloody clue

Lets start with 2 joke LH's
A TH brought in to enhance Ireland who isn't even good enough to start for Ulster
A 6 who is quite frankly a total waste of space

A back three player playing at 10
A 13 playing at 12
A back three player playing at 13
A winger playing at 15
I know this is a bit left field but what about playing players in their best position

Well down Jones, McPhillips and Lyttle you all should have been starting.
McPhillips was much better than I expected and fair play to him

vDM was and always has been a total pudding - a disgrace

My overall opinion is Kiss - 'for God sake go !!!!!'

The more and more you look at it, the more and more bizarre Kiss's rotation in the backline becomes. Ludik at 13 was bemusing, he had no appreciation what was happening around him, no appreciation of space or reading of the game, that is not a criticism of the always solid Ludik, but a criticism of him being played out of position. There was bombed try when Ludik broke the Connacht line but sent the ball to the outside instead of an obvious ball inside and that was long before the game was gone. Didn't we sign this guy as a fullback, despite the fact that he has played on the wing a lot as well.....

To have an absolutely solid 15 like Ludik at outside bloody centre while by far your most dangerous wing finds himself at 15......the mind boggles.


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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Redman on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 4:09 am

Ulster's problem is structural.  And that comes from Logan on down.  

I'm not going to argue that Logan has been a tremendous success commercially.  I was at The Stoop and then Ravenhill a week later.  The difference isn't even funny (... maybe if you're a Quins fan).  We're leading the way in terms of being a professional commercial outfit.  The problem is we're lagging behind almost everyone in terms of basic rugby structure.

At the top we have a CEO who has no sense for the game.  A brief history ... Humphreys was turned down for the Nucifora role in 2014.  He left in June 2014 for Gloucester.  
2014/2015 and after a bit of farting around we've been "given" an IRFU coach as a gift on an interim basis, but he's had to return to Ireland duties to prepare for as Defence Coach in September/October 2015 World Cup (which went a bit Poopie because our Defence was awful).  All the while we lost our highly successfully Defence coach to Gloucester and Doak is made acting Director of Rugby for a period, and then demoted but still gets to keep the Head Coach title.  2014/15 ebbs away to nothing because we're in transition .....
2015/16 I'm not sure anything happened.  I can remember almost nothing of note.  BUT WE'RE IN TRANSITION!!!
2016/17 a New Dawn!  Ohhhh but wait, our coaching ticket is a mess because it turns out our Forwards Coach isn't on speaking terms with our Backs Coach (or was that Head Coach?).   I'm not sure how that situation snuck up on people, but it did and it takes us till February 2017 to announce that neither of them will be with Ulster next season.  Kiss's call and probably a good one infairness, but a season too late.  2016/17 ebbs away to nothing because, again, we're in transition .....
2017/18 a New New Dawn!  In comes Jono Gibbs, Peel and Dunden.  A fresh start.  But it appears our defence is starting to creak.  But wait ... our defence has been getting progressively worse since Johnny Bell left in .... 2014.  2.5 ****ing seasons ago???  Who's the current Defence Coach?  Our ****ing Director of Rugby.

And here we find ourselves.  Our Director of Rugby.  The man who should be overseeing the entirety of rugby development in Ulster, a province (not a country remember) of around 2.1 million people, from U10s to the Senior Professional Team, is doubling as our Defence Coach of 40 ish players.  THAT IS NOT YOUR ****ING JOB!  YOU'VE BEEN IN THE JOB FOR 2.5 YEARS, IT'S TIME TO REALISE YOU NEED HELP!

The sad thing is I actually think there's been positives from this season over last.  We've picked youth, we've managed the squad, we've made some hard decisions ... parts of that are impressive and brave strategic calls.  Jones, Dalton, Rea, McBurney, Hall and others wouldn't have been picked if Clarke was still there.  Picking the team to play Connacht today was a brave call.  I don't mind losing games.  It showed appreciation of the fixture schedule and understanding that we need to rotate the squad.  In previous years we have not done this ...  and yet we're only as strong as our intrinsic blindspots.  And Kiss seems to be blind to the fact he can't manage Ulster and default back to his comfort blanket of being a Defence Coach (and that's giving him ****ing huge leeway in assuming the game hasn't passed him by and he still is much of a Defence Coach - Ireland vs Argentina, we were a disgrace).  

To stress the point, the team we picked today isn't the issue.  Losing today isn't the issue.  Not addressing the issue of our defence, which has been getting progressively worse for 2 years, is the issue

The game of Rugby moves so quickly now that we can't "wait and see" for another 6-18months while Logan looks at spreadsheets and Profit & Loss Accounts.  

Kiss needs to :
a) Say to Logan he's a Director of Rugby and they need a dedicated Defence Coach, while giving Day to Day responsibilities to Jono Gibbs as Head Coach (while putting pressure on the Head Coach to play youngsters and develop the squad)
b) Resign from the DoR post and concentrate as a Defence Coach (preferably not at Ulster).  

This decision needs to be made before 31st January 2018.


Last edited by Redman on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 4:20 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Standulstermen on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 5:31 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
clivemcl wrote:Is tonight the night where we all realise why all Kiss hasn’t been picking Cave and Trimble?

No disrespect Clive but if you think Cave and Trimble are the problem you don't have a bloody clue

Lets start with 2 joke LH's
A TH brought in to enhance Ireland who isn't even good enough to start for Ulster
A 6 who is quite frankly a total waste of space

A back three player playing at 10
A 13 playing at 12
A back three player playing at 13
A winger playing at 15
I know this is a bit left field but what about playing players in their best position

Well down Jones, McPhillips and Lyttle you all should have been starting.
McPhillips was much better than I expected and fair play to him

vDM was and always has been a total pudding - a disgrace

My overall opinion is Kiss - 'for God sake go !!!!!'

They aren’t the major issue Geoff but they are done at this level. From that team tonight I wouldn’t want to see the following again in a white shirt

Cave, Warwick, Andrew(time for McBurney), Herbst, VDM, Ross, Nelson (Anscombe had his card marked right). I know there are more but it’s too depressing.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by clivemcl on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 7:26 am

Geoff, you obviously have more knowledge than I do, but you are a condescending ars5hole.

You interpreted my comment as a post match analysis when in fact it was made half way through the first half. It was not a comment about the only players playing badly but a comment in response to two players whom posters had questioned their absence from team sheets.

The fact you are somewhat in the know does not give you license to belittle others. I’d be quite happy to forgo the insight you bring to this group if you insist on being a smart ars5.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 11:39 am

Sorry Clive didn't mean to offend - mixture of disgust at a totally unprofessional performance and a few beers.
So for that I apologise

Having said that Cave and Trimble being absent has absolutely nothing to do with the mess that is Ulster rugby.



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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 11:43 am

Standulstermen wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
clivemcl wrote:Is tonight the night where we all realise why all Kiss hasn’t been picking Cave and Trimble?

No disrespect Clive but if you think Cave and Trimble are the problem you don't have a bloody clue

Lets start with 2 joke LH's
A TH brought in to enhance Ireland who isn't even good enough to start for Ulster
A 6 who is quite frankly a total waste of space

A back three player playing at 10
A 13 playing at 12
A back three player playing at 13
A winger playing at 15
I know this is a bit left field but what about playing players in their best position

Well down Jones, McPhillips and Lyttle you all should have been starting.
McPhillips was much better than I expected and fair play to him

vDM was and always has been a total pudding - a disgrace

My overall opinion is Kiss - 'for God sake go !!!!!'

They aren’t the major issue Geoff but they are done at this level. From that team tonight I wouldn’t want to see the following again in a white shirt

Cave, Warwick, Andrew(time for McBurney), Herbst, VDM, Ross, Nelson (Anscombe had his card marked right). I know there are more but it’s too depressing.

I think you are being unfair on a few players - our defensive set up is a joke.
If it wasn't Cave would still be worth it as backup 13 to Marshall and should be used as such.
Whether we like it or not he is still our second best 13 and by some considerable distance (forget Payne he ain't coming back)

Andrew is a good prospect and has better darts than Best or Herring.
His scrummaging isn't that bad - it is the clowns either side of him that are a problem

Nelson was awful but he is playing out of position - he is a decent back three player.
The way Anscombe treated him remains out of order

Somebody else you haven't mentioned who has gone downhill this year is Reidy - been very poor in 75% of his games


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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 11:50 am

Redman a lot of truth in what you speak.

Talking to someone last night, who everyone who goes to Ravenhill would instantly recognise, and was told that there is an
obsessive culture at Ulster about staying on message and doing the right thing.

If anyone manager, player, staff speak it almost has to be cleared by the 'thought police' before they open their mouths.
Creates an atmosphere that is repressive and one where most are afraid to speak.
Not good

Noticeable to me how much more relaxed, behind the scenes, both La Rochelle and Harlequins appeared



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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by clivemcl on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 12:06 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Sorry Clive didn't mean to offend - mixture of disgust at a totally unprofessional performance and a few beers.
So for that I apologise

Having said that Cave and Trimble being absent has absolutely nothing to do with the mess that is Ulster rugby.



All good Geoff. Merry Christmas! OK

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 12:21 pm

I think you are underestimating the effect on all the staff and players of the Olding and Jackson situation, both psychologically and player wise. Losing Jackson (& Pienaar) just when Jackson was coming into his prime also must be very difficult. UR's hands are tied because besides not knowing what the outcome of the trial will be, they can't recruit a fulltime replacement at this stage (and no one would be attracted there because they wouldn't know if Jackson will be back or not).

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 12:30 pm

Certainly not helpful but we have problems that go beyond that issue.

Merry Christmas to you Clive and to all other regular posters here

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by clivemcl on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 1:05 pm

Sin é, I reckon Jackson’s future at Ulster may already have been decided upon regardless of the trial outcome. Just going off what people have said.

I wouldn’t be excited by anyone no matter what the big name is if it were only a short term. Ulster won’t turn this season around regardless of who we sign. I only care who will be in the 10 shirt for 2018/19 season and beyond.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by eirebilly on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 1:34 pm

Just a stupid question here. Now that Pienaar has left, how long does he have to be away (is there a time limit before Ulster can resign him or will he not be allowed to play for Ulster again)? Its obvious he loves the place.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 1:40 pm

I don't believe you will ever see Jackson, Olding or Pienaer in an Ulster shirt ever again
Those ships have sailed and we need to move on

I can see Pienaer wanting to be a coach - I Hope Ulster have the forsight to take him up on it.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Standulstermen on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 8:25 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
clivemcl wrote:Is tonight the night where we all realise why all Kiss hasn’t been picking Cave and Trimble?

No disrespect Clive but if you think Cave and Trimble are the problem you don't have a bloody clue

Lets start with 2 joke LH's
A TH brought in to enhance Ireland who isn't even good enough to start for Ulster
A 6 who is quite frankly a total waste of space

A back three player playing at 10
A 13 playing at 12
A back three player playing at 13
A winger playing at 15
I know this is a bit left field but what about playing players in their best position

Well down Jones, McPhillips and Lyttle you all should have been starting.
McPhillips was much better than I expected and fair play to him

vDM was and always has been a total pudding - a disgrace

My overall opinion is Kiss - 'for God sake go !!!!!'

They aren’t the major issue Geoff but they are done at this level. From that team tonight I wouldn’t want to see the following again in a white shirt

Cave, Warwick, Andrew(time for McBurney), Herbst, VDM, Ross, Nelson (Anscombe had his card marked right). I know there are more but it’s too depressing.

I think you are being unfair on a few players - our defensive set up is a joke.
If it wasn't Cave would still be worth it as backup 13 to Marshall and should be used as such.
Whether we like it or not he is still our second best 13 and by some considerable distance (forget Payne he ain't coming back)

Andrew is a good prospect and has better darts than Best or Herring.
His scrummaging isn't that bad - it is the clowns either side of him that are a problem

Nelson was awful but he is playing out of position - he is a decent back three player.
The way Anscombe treated him remains out of order

Somebody else you haven't mentioned who has gone downhill this year is Reidy - been very poor in 75% of his games

I don’t think it’s unfair Geoff I think it’s ruthless. Cave is a shadow of his former self. I was looking at the tackles he missed last night and they were his bread and butter. He isn’t the future nor is he our best back up to Marshall imo.

Nelson is an awful 10. He is a missed tackle waiting to happen in any position though. I’m not absolving Anscombe in his treatment of him but the sentiment that he wasn’t up to it is spot on. Andrew is a ruthless call. He’s grand but he’s never going to be good enough for first choice. Time to invest in McBurney and not just bringing him in when we are down two men and a BP try away in Galway.

Kane looks stagnant to me like Warwick was before he began regressing badly. We need to be more honest about some of our own prospects imo. A lot of them just aren’t tough enough which in fairness is something I can’t say about Jones or AoC. Leinster seem to produce forwards with a bit of mongrel if nothing else. Our lads are soft

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 10:39 am

Just lost a very long post censored


Kane and Andrew are fine and as much fighters as AOC and Jones
Nelson is a back three player he should be judged there not hung out to dry by crap coaching
Cave is in decline so are Trimble, Bowe and Henry
Who do you see as the best cover this year, and even more so next at both 12 and 13

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by clivemcl on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 10:44 am

If somebody like Allen steps away from pro rugby, has there ever been history of somebody coming back and being decent after a year or more away? With Payne and Cave potentially being done and Olding gone... surely Allen would be worth a squad shirt?


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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 10:45 am

Technical question I have a PDF laying out in detail where I think we are squad wise - anyone know how up load it here for others to see

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 10:48 am

clivemcl wrote:If somebody like Allen steps away from pro rugby, has there every been history of somebody coming back and being decent after a year or more away? With Payne and Cave potentially being done and Olding gone... surely Allen would be worth a squad shirt?

It is very very difficult to do
I also understand Allen not interested - has a career and enjoying playing rugby for fun

In the table I hope to post what it does illustrate is that our best, and indeed only, centre cover next year (if Cave leaves) is Patterson

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 11:01 am

Maybe I'll post the table I have position by position
First some assumptions
I have based it on a squad of 42
It assumes Piatau, Payne, Coetzee, Bowe, Cave, Diack, Jackson and Olding will not be with us next year.
Players categories into 5 ratings
1st teamer - happy to see them play
Good backup
Squad player - will do a job but have some weaknesses
Good youngster - show potential to be a real asset
Surplus - simply not good enough
Some of the more developed youngsters will be a higher category
The more developed Academy players have been included in the lists

TH (need 4)
1st teamer - Moore
Good backup - Herbst, Ah You, Kane
Good youngster - O'Toole
Surplus - Simpson

Assessment - the addition of Moore means we are ok at TH

Hooker (need 4)
1st teamer - Best, Herring
Good backup - Andrew
Good youngsters - McBurney

Assessment - fine our strongest forward position

LH (need 4)
Good backup - McCall
Squad cover - Black
Good youngster - O'Hagan
Surplus - vDeMerwe, Warwick

Assessment - problems as no adequate starter. The rumours of asking about Dooley (at Leinster) need to be pushed and
the thought of dropping Black needs to be reversed. The pudding that is vDM makes both of these vital

More to follow - there are some truly alarming issues in the backrow and at 10,12,13


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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by clivemcl on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 11:03 am

You got a Google account Geoff? You can upload to Google Docs and then share with us the link.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 11:35 am

Cave's best position was 13, when he was at the height of his powers. He has never been the quickest, but is increasingly found out in attack and defence as Ulster try to play a wide game. Experience is great but it is questionable how effective as cover he actually is.
Patterson hasn't had much exposure, so why was Arnold not retained? Is it another case of keeping the old head rather than invest in youth?
McCloskey was unearthed when Ulster had a centre crisis, and it is surely better to move on than persist with a temporary sticking plaster like Cave or Allen. If it was Leinster surely Hume or Curtis would already have been tried?

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 11:56 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Technical question I have a PDF laying out in detail where I think we are squad wise - anyone know how up load it here for others to see

Geoff. You can host the pdf as an image at http://tinypic.com/. Once you upload then it’ll provide you with a URL to copy and paste using the image link item in the posting menu that you see when you post on here. (3rd icon to the left of the You Tube icon).

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Standulstermen on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 12:15 pm

My issue with using cave is that he has diminished so far he isn’t light years ahead of the alternatives. Aukster mentioned Hume (he has been injured hasn’t he) but Ludik is still a better option than cave imo.

Geoff
Of the LHs you mention I agree in keeping black out of him, Warwick and VDM but for me he should be behind the others. Is O’Hagan not already 25 odd? I know that’s young in prop terms but we would need to find out soon. Rea Sr is a similar age and despite him being lauded we didn’t see him till this year.

I’m not down on Andrew I just think he has a ceiling and we don’t know how good McBurney could be. I’m going to disagree on Nelson. I think he’s a turnstyle in defence but I fully concede he hasn’t been helped. Kane I remain to be convinced on. Warwick at least broke through when he held up Healy on the TH side. I don’t recall
Kane having as impressive a performance. Christ I would kill for a prop of Tom Courts quality

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 12:26 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Cave's best position was 13, when he was at the height of his powers. He has never been the quickest, but is increasingly found out in attack and defence as Ulster try to play a wide game. Experience is great but it is questionable how effective as cover he actually is.
Patterson hasn't had much exposure, so why was Arnold not retained? Is it another case of keeping the old head rather than invest in youth?
McCloskey was unearthed when Ulster had a centre crisis, and it is surely better to move on than persist with a temporary sticking plaster like Cave or Allen. If it was Leinster surely Hume or Curtis would already have been tried?

When Arnold left we didnt know we were going to be without Payne and Olding.
In addition it was a case him leaving to get game time rather than Ulster releasing him

As to moving on I can agree but my argument re Cave is simple there is nobody to move onto - the only centre cover definitely at the club next year is Patterson and a youngster not yet ready Butler.
There is no one else
Centre just might be our biggest issue next year.

For me Ludik in the centre is as dumb as Nelson at 10.
Call me old fashioned but I like players playing in their best position
I do not think it is fair to say Cave is found out in defence (he made more tackles than anyone else (11 to15) against Connacht and by some margin.
They were all found out playing with a weak backrow, a 15 playing 10 and employing a total useless and dumb drift defence which is so open to a weak inside shoulder

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Standulstermen on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 12:32 pm

Taking opinion out of it, is there any chance he will re-sign given he has only started one game? I don’t see him being here

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 12:48 pm

Ludik has been fine at OC before, but he had a shocker last Saturday. According to espn stats, Cave made 10 tackles and missed 3, Ludik made 11 and missed 2. Even Herbst made 11 and missed 1, Hendo 16/1, and Timoney 12/2. It's not about one game though, the overall pattern isn't good when he has been more regular.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 6:40 pm

I've seen different stats.
ESPN aren't the most reliable

Whether or not Cave stays depends, I believe, on whether or not Kiss stays.
If Kiss goes my money is on him leaving, if he goes I reckon Cave will re sign.
Ludik has played better at OC than Connacht (he could hardly have been worse), by the same token Nelson has been ok at 10 in some games. Neither looks comfortable at 13 or 10 respectively and both are considerably better elsewhere.
By the same token Bowe has been poor defensively at 13.

I'll go back to my analysis above for the backs

Centre (need 5)
1st teamer - Marshall, McCloskey
Surplus - Patterson

Assessment - we have a near void after the starting two.
Some here have clearly implied we don't need Cave but given the above I have to disagree
Don't get me wrong I do accept, like others, he is in decline but Centre could easily become the position above all else where we are short of numbers next year.

The Academy has only 2 players - Butler and Hume.
Not seen Hume but Butler doesn't look ready to me.

The irony is Arnold was 6th in the pecking order when he left - how times have changed

Back Three (need 5)
1st teamers - Ludik, Stockdale, Gilroy
Good backup - Trimble, Lyttle
Squad player - Nelson
Surplus - Owens, Busby

Assessment - Fine good cover as well

Will do other positions later

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Pete330v2 on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 7:13 pm

This is fascinating reading Geoff even if it's a bit depressing at times. Is there no way you could send it through to UR as a warning because they haven't historically been very good at seeing that kind of thing coming.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 11:44 pm

To continue

Lock (need 5)
1st teamers - Henderson, Treadwell
Good backup - O'Connor
Squad player - Browne
Good youngster - Dalton, Regan

Assessment - Fairly good, bit too reliant on Henderson but youngster are very promising

Backrow (need 6)
1st teamer - Murphy
Good backup - Timoney, Henry
Squad player - Reidy, Deysel
Good youngster - Rea, Hall, Jones, Dunleavy
Surplus - Ross

Assessment - Ideally 2 front liners short but Henderson ability to play in backrow, Henry experience and Timoney can only get better
Also excited by some of the youngsters potentials means 1 more top backrower will do.
Effectively we need Coetzee back or if not fit he has to be cut lose and replace with a player of equivalent standing

One thing I will say is Willie Anderson has been given responsibility to bring on players for positions 4 to 8 and it seems to be being to
be getting some results

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

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