England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

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England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 23 Oct 2017, 11:16 am

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Well this is interesting, England want world rugby to do something about the Celtic nations "poaching" their young talent. It's not as if England have not had it both ways though, with players like Ben Morgan and Sam Underhill being two that were forged in Wales before crossing back over the Severn:-

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/england-want-to-tackle-poaching-of-their-academy-products-cbvrbvj5h

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-ask-world-rugby-help-13796209

When I was reading this I had a lot of sympathy for England in this respect, but when I did a little digging I found some quite interesting articles, yes the RFU want to stop other countries taking players that they develop, but England are not as squeaky clean as they like to think they are:-

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/89379984/england-revealed-as-the-home-of-the-poacher

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/10/rugby-residency-rules-changed-pacific-island-exodus

After reading this, I have had a thought, that the fallout could be that a rugby player would have to declare their international intentions at a very young age.

Looking at one of those articles, Scotland would be at an instant disadvantage, I do not think this would be fair on any player, to have to nail his patriotism to the mast before you are at an age to make a responsible decision, yet that is a path we might have to go down if the RFU get their way.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by marty2086 on Tue 24 Oct 2017, 4:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:As an example of this topic marty. Yes do try to keep up.

Except that wasn't the issue raised but I'll be sure to check parameters for discussions with you in future Rolling Eyes

Not like it's still relevant, England benefitted from the development work done by the SARU with in the discussion, so apparently you can poach a 19 year old and not a 26 year old? Who knew

Same could be said of Ben Te'o, Leinster and the IRFU spent time and money getting him over from League and converting him and England benefit

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 24 Oct 2017, 4:52 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, my point is, and always has been, which I have stated on this debate numerous times, that the RFU are being hypocrites.

In what way? Which players of recent times have played for an Int U20 side and then crossed to play for England? I honestly can't think of any.

:cough: BRAD BARRITT :cough:

Decent example, I could probably give you that one. I don't think he was poached by the RFU though, and he wasn't exactly young when capped. It's not that easy because it's not something we really do, having such a huge pool of players.

LD, I'm really unsure what you're going on about. What proof do you have of this? I imagine most countries do some kind of scouting in neighbouring countries to some extent anyway, as there's a strong chance the players with have links to other nations.

I imagine you get the Scots crossing to he North of England to watch games and similar with the Welsh in the Bath/Gloucester area.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 24 Oct 2017, 4:59 pm

And in the wider point marty you're right. Wr should be reviewing all of this and looking at a wider scale than they do 17 to 23 and with more compensation.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 24 Oct 2017, 5:00 pm

And also seeing as you were being a bit of a silly billy marty as even you acknowledged barritt didn't play for the u20s so check the parameters eh.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by marty2086 on Tue 24 Oct 2017, 5:01 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, my point is, and always has been, which I have stated on this debate numerous times, that the RFU are being hypocrites.

In what way? Which players of recent times have played for an Int U20 side and then crossed to play for England? I honestly can't think of any.

:cough: BRAD BARRITT :cough:

Decent example, I could probably give you that one. I don't think he was poached by the RFU though, and he wasn't exactly young when capped. It's not that easy because it's not something we really do, having such a huge pool of players.

So it's just the proactive recruitment by unions you want challenged?

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by marty2086 on Tue 24 Oct 2017, 5:02 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And also seeing as you were being a bit of a silly billy marty as even you acknowledged barritt didn't play for the u20s so check the parameters eh.

Bit hard to play for a team that didn't exist, the u20s replaced the u21s and u19s

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 24 Oct 2017, 5:04 pm

Yup but parameters need to be met marty. I'd be very happy to see a much broader coverage of his with much higher and appropriate compensation.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by marty2086 on Tue 24 Oct 2017, 5:06 pm

Well then can you verify that u21 qualifies as the second team within the realms of this discussion prior to 2008? Whistle

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 24 Oct 2017, 5:10 pm

Yup but the realms of this discussion focus on instances where unions have targeted players to play for them. Didn't happen in that case. But I'd be more than happy for cases like that to be compensated which it isn't at present and at a much higher level than when compensation is applied. Only fair.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 24 Oct 2017, 5:18 pm

I was trying to think of an RFU involvement if I'm honest, I perhaps worded it wrongly. A similar to case to Moriarty is what I'm trying to think of but less likely due to us not picking players outside of England.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by True-Raven on Tue 24 Oct 2017, 11:08 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I was trying to think of an RFU involvement if I'm honest, I perhaps worded it wrongly. A similar to case to Moriarty is what I'm trying to think of but less likely due to us not picking players outside of England.

Jonny Williams was first picked for Wales under 16s before going on to play for England Under 18s and under 20s

Harry Randall played for wales under 16s before playing for England’s under 20s

Must have been union involvement as they switched countries, probably others too

Not saying there’s anything wrong with it but you’re all naive if you don’t think the RFU, clubs in England and schools in England aren’t encouraging players outside England to enter their system/pathway

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by lostinwales on Tue 24 Oct 2017, 11:35 pm

True-Raven wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I was trying to think of an RFU involvement if I'm honest, I perhaps worded it wrongly. A similar to case to Moriarty is what I'm trying to think of but less likely due to us not picking players outside of England.

Jonny Williams was first picked for Wales under 16s before going on to play for England Under 18s and under 20s

Harry Randall played for wales under 16s before playing for England’s under 20s

Must have been union involvement as they switched countries, probably others too

Not saying there’s anything wrong with it but you’re all naive if you don’t think the RFU, clubs in England and schools in England aren’t encouraging players outside England to enter their system/pathway

As a matter of interest do we know how Welsh or English these two players are?

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 5:24 am

lostinwales wrote:
True-Raven wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I was trying to think of an RFU involvement if I'm honest, I perhaps worded it wrongly. A similar to case to Moriarty is what I'm trying to think of but less likely due to us not picking players outside of England.

Jonny Williams was first picked for Wales under 16s before going on to play for England Under 18s and under 20s

Harry Randall played for wales under 16s before playing for England’s under 20s

Must have been union involvement as they switched countries, probably others too

Not saying there’s anything wrong with it but you’re all naive if you don’t think the RFU, clubs in England and schools in England aren’t encouraging players outside England to enter their system/pathway

As a matter of interest do we know how Welsh or English these two players are?

Good pick up Raven. A bit of research......Williams was born and raised in Reading but has a Welsh father, played for England since U17 level.

Randall was born in Slough but moved to Wales at the age of 4. He played Wales U18 but then moved college to Hartbury and was selected for England. He claims in an interview he was born in England and is English, take what you want from that I guess.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by True-Raven on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 6:46 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
True-Raven wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I was trying to think of an RFU involvement if I'm honest, I perhaps worded it wrongly. A similar to case to Moriarty is what I'm trying to think of but less likely due to us not picking players outside of England.

Jonny Williams was first picked for Wales under 16s before going on to play for England Under 18s and under 20s

Harry Randall played for wales under 16s before playing for England’s under 20s

Must have been union involvement as they switched countries, probably others too

Not saying there’s anything wrong with it but you’re all naive if you don’t think the RFU, clubs in England and schools in England aren’t encouraging players outside England to enter their system/pathway

As a matter of interest do we know how Welsh or English these two players are?

Good pick up Raven. A bit of research......Williams was born and raised in Reading but has a Welsh father, played for England since U17 level.

Randall was born in Slough but moved to Wales at the age of 4. He played Wales U18 but then moved college to Hartbury and was selected for England. He claims in an interview he was born in England and is English, take what you want from that I guess.

I have no issue with them changing nations or how Welsh/English they are.

I was only stating that the rfu must have been involved in the change of pathway from the Welsh system to the English as they started in the Welsh age group.

Like I said all nations will look to strengthen their team just its hypocritical of the RFU to complain to World Rugby when they are no different to other unions

I knew Randall was born in England to English parents but it’s a similar situation to moriarty just moriarty made the switch later down the pathway

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 7:17 am

Again though these 2 aren't covered by the current compensation system.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:19 am

To be fair, it's not just the RFU that are poaching our youngsters, Ireland have been doing it, James McCarthy has recently been poached by Ireland after coming through the Welsh age grade system, and more recently Luke Hamilton has been poached by Scotland.

Also, I am sure Ireland poached two other youngsters who came through the Welsh age grade system a few years ago as well. I will try and remember who they were.

It seems Wales has the most to complain about. Very Happy

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:22 am

LordDowlais wrote:It seems Wales has the most to complain about. Very Happy

Don't they always Wink

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:25 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:It seems Wales has the most to complain about. Very Happy

Don't they always Wink

Very Happy

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:30 am

Also, I do remember Callum Sheedy and Rory Bartle were suspiciously pulled out of the Wales U20's squad during a 6N campaign a few years ago before Wales were due to play France.

Both these players were contracted to English clubs, but for some reason, they pulled out, now I wonder why that would have happened ? chin

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Scottrf on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:31 am

LordDowlais wrote: McCarthy has recently been poached by Ireland...Hamilton has been poached by Scotland.

Hmmm. Have Poland also poached Kowalski and Spain poached Garcia?

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:34 am

Scottrf wrote:
LordDowlais wrote: McCarthy has recently been poached by Ireland...Hamilton has been poached by Scotland.

Hmmm. Have Poland also poached Kowalski and Spain poached Garcia?

Why have you left out their first names ?

And what has what you wrote got to do with anything ?

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by cakeordeath on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:36 am

Scottrf wrote:
LordDowlais wrote: McCarthy has recently been poached by Ireland...Hamilton has been poached by Scotland.

Hmmm. Have Poland also poached Kowalski and Spain poached Garcia?

Hamilton, whose father is Scottish has been "poached" by us thumbsup Erm

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Scottrf on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:40 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
LordDowlais wrote: McCarthy has recently been poached by Ireland...Hamilton has been poached by Scotland.

Hmmm. Have Poland also poached Kowalski and Spain poached Garcia?

Why have you left out their first names ?

And what has what you wrote got to do with anything ?

To increase the emphasis. I just found the names of the people you chose to focus on amusing.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by marty2086 on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:42 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I was trying to think of an RFU involvement if I'm honest, I perhaps worded it wrongly. A similar to case to Moriarty is what I'm trying to think of but less likely due to us not picking players outside of England.

Was Moriarty pursued by the WRU or did they ask if he was interested in a call up? Im sure the RFU has conversations like that with guys like Barritt, it's not poaching it's just preventing the embarrassment of calling a guy up only for them to say thanks but no thanks

Was he ever close to the England team prior to Wales selecting him?

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:43 am

LordDowlais wrote:Also, I do remember Callum Sheedy and Rory Bartle were suspiciously pulled out of the Wales U20's squad during a 6N campaign a few years ago before Wales were due to play France.

Both these players were contracted to English clubs, but for some reason, they pulled out, now I wonder why that would have happened ? chin

I seem to recall it was because they didn't want to become non-EQ as they thought they would struggle to a contact with the AP side they were with. This is fair enough imo, if Wales wanted them so much they could have offered them to play for one of the regions I guess.

I am as patriotic as any Welshman,” Bartle said last year. “I still sit in front of the TV screaming when Wales are playing like everyone else. I still love my country and enjoyed every single second of being involved in the Welsh camp. Going forward sometimes you have to put your head over your heart because this is potentially a profession until I am 35.

“At the tender age of 18, I don’t want to burn any bridges. Being an EQP makes an enormous difference to whether you get a contract or not. On top of that, with the numbers of overseas players involved clubs don’t want their academy products taking up extra space.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:45 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:if Wales wanted them so much they could have offered them to play for one of the regions I guess.

he might have got that if he was not offered a lucrative scholarship in England.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:48 am

cakeordeath wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
LordDowlais wrote: McCarthy has recently been poached by Ireland...Hamilton has been poached by Scotland.

Hmmm. Have Poland also poached Kowalski and Spain poached Garcia?

Hamilton, whose father is Scottish has been "poached" by us thumbsup Erm

Yes but we are using the RFU's mandate, that they were put through another countries development pathway and has cost that union money, only for another country to reap the benefits.

Every one is a victim of this, it would seem. But only one union are complaining.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:49 am

marty2086 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I was trying to think of an RFU involvement if I'm honest, I perhaps worded it wrongly. A similar to case to Moriarty is what I'm trying to think of but less likely due to us not picking players outside of England.

Was Moriarty pursued by the WRU or did they ask if he was interested in a call up? Im sure the RFU has conversations like that with guys like Barritt, it's not poaching it's just preventing the embarrassment of calling a guy up only for them to say thanks but no thanks

Was he ever close to the England team prior to Wales selecting him?

I've just read something on this actually.

He was initially a FB playing in Wales before moving to Hartbury where they converted him to the backrow. He was then capped at U18 and U20 levels.

Pursued/asked if he was interested in a call-up is a thin line.

As far as we know Moriarty had no intention of ever playing for England(he's mentioned this since) and was just using the system to improve as a player. If this is the case then you can understand why the RFU are annoyed, they've spent money on a player for no reason.

I'm not defending the RFU here, I think this goes in both ways. I can see why they want some kind of protection and I think the other RU's should jump on this too.

If every nations 2nd string were the U20's this would really help weed this kind of thing out, just my opinion of course.


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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:51 am

Well LD, everyone should compain....and perhaps they will. Rather than mudslinging at each other suggesting one nation is worse than the other, they should come up with something to prevent or at least put people off the idea.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:54 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:If every nations 2nd string were the U20's this would really help weed this kind of thing out, just my opinion of course.

Yes, I agree with this, also, I think stricter rules should be applied to scouts, from all countries tempting teenage talent into another unions player pool. No kid should have to worry about his future because of his nationality.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by BamBam on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:55 am

Don't see why U20 shouldn't be the team to tie players to a country

Means every player from every country is tied in at the same age, and if countries choose to run A teams that is their own choice

If players are late developers and haven't been selected for the U20s, then the Union can't really have much claim to them at that point and the current rules apply

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:56 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well LD, everyone should compain....and perhaps they will. Rather than mudslinging at each other suggesting one nation is worse than the other, they should come up with something to prevent or at least put people off the idea.

I would not say complaining is the answer though.

If any union is worried about another country reaping the benefits of it's development pathway, then perhaps that union should impose stricter rules on the scouts from said country.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Scottrf on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:57 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well LD, everyone should compain....and perhaps they will. Rather than mudslinging at each other suggesting one nation is worse than the other, they should come up with something to prevent or at least put people off the idea.

It's the players choice though which academy they go to, which club they sign for, which nation they play for. Without getting into legally grey areas, I think compensation is the best compromise.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Scottrf on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:58 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well LD, everyone should compain....and perhaps they will. Rather than mudslinging at each other suggesting one nation is worse than the other, they should come up with something to prevent or at least put people off the idea.

I would not say complaining is the answer though.

If any union is worried about another country reaping the benefits of it's development pathway, then perhaps that union should impose stricter rules on the scouts from said country.

You mean not putting people called Hamilton or McCarthy through a Welsh Academy?

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by ebop on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 10:59 am

Anyone ever heard of Hadleigh Parkes?

Me neither

http://m.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41729676
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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 11:24 am

Scottrf wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well LD, everyone should compain....and perhaps they will. Rather than mudslinging at each other suggesting one nation is worse than the other, they should come up with something to prevent or at least put people off the idea.

I would not say complaining is the answer though.

If any union is worried about another country reaping the benefits of it's development pathway, then perhaps that union should impose stricter rules on the scouts from said country.

You mean not putting people called Hamilton or McCarthy through a Welsh Academy?

What has their names got to do with it ?

Seriously, if you want to troll, then you must at least try and be a bit more clever with it, otherwise you just make yourself look look a complete tool.


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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Scottrf on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 11:27 am

Names suggest ancestry, just so you know.

I'll try to be 'more cleverer' though Laugh

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by BamBam on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 11:34 am

I think Scott's point is that McCarthy and Hamilton are stereotypically Irish/Scottish names

For Wales to claim them as their own then act shocked that they may have stronger roots in Ireland/Scotland seems rather silly

Kowalski and Garcia were stated for emphasis ...

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 11:43 am

James McCarthy was born in Newport, Wales, and has gone through the age grade systems in Wales, Luke Hamilton was born in Camarthen, Wales and has gone trough the age grade systems in Wales.

McCarthy and Hamilton are quite popular surnames in this country.

This is the exact thing that the RFU are complaining about, nobody is doing anything wrong here though, but only one union is complaining.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by lostinwales on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 12:13 pm

Yeah lets not list all the Wales players born in England then.

This whole thing seems to have blown up out of all proportion

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 12:54 pm

lostinwales wrote:Yeah lets not list all the Wales players born in England then.

This whole thing seems to have blown up out of all proportion

OMG. Why are people not getting this ?

It's not about about where they were born. steam

It's about who's system/pathway they have been through, and how much resources they have had afforded to them.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by lostinwales on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 1:11 pm

No it seems to be about
1) WOL creating a story from next to nothing
2) RFU questioning where they stand when it comes to investing in players who won't play for England.
3) Any excuse to kick off a 'aren't England awful'/England Wales thread, which in turn tends towards using increasingly esoteric selections of players to try and prove one point over another.

As for the RFU position, they would be stupid not to ask the question. It doesn't mean they will get an answer that they or anyone else will like, or indeed that the status quo should change.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 1:52 pm

lostinwales wrote:3) Any excuse to kick off a 'aren't England awful'/England Wales thread, which in turn tends towards using increasingly esoteric selections of players to try and prove one point over another.

You see, I take serious offence to these types of accusations, and as I have said to another English member on this thread, it seems that it is only our English members, certain ones, who want to lead this debate in that direction to suit their point of view.

Please read above to a reply I posted yesterday regarding these types of accusations. OK

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 1:58 pm

And here is what I said yesterday, just in case you cannot be bothered to look:-

LordDowlais wrote:I promise, and I mean this sincerely, I am not trying to turn this into a Wales V England "thing".

It seems it is you who is trying to convince yourself and others that I am, to try and justify your point of view. I am not trying to make it about anything more, and that is the last I am saying regarding that accusation.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 2:03 pm

Yeah ld doesn't want this england vs wales rubbish which is why he didn't start the thread with a ridiculous example of underhill and Morgan.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by lostinwales on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 2:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah ld doesn't want this england vs wales rubbish which is why he didn't start the thread with a ridiculous example of underhill and Morgan.

Worth adding that the likes of Wayne, True-Raven etc have been able to add to the discussion without triggering angry responses.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Scottrf on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 2:14 pm

To be honest, I think LordDowlais has been pretty reasonable too.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Poorfour on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 2:18 pm

Scottrf wrote:To be honest, I think LordDowlais has been pretty reasonable too.

I found his response to my post particularly gracious- thanks LD.

I think that lock in at U20 would be a reasonable rule. That way, players know what they are getting into.

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 2:24 pm

The RFU are ever so slightly embarrassing themselves here. Bemoaning the poaching of their players when they actively recruit from Wales and Scotland.

I've heard countless stories from some of my mates who play with borders clubs of how private school scouts (from England) prowl around the U18 and U20 borders matches in Scotland offering free places to young Scottish rugby players, to develop their game within the English rugby system.

It's hardly surprising however when some of these Scottish players who, despite have been given tremendous opportunities within the English academies still chose to represent Scotland is it?
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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 2:28 pm

Like who ruggerradge?

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Re: England want to tackle poaching of their academy products

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