England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

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England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 10:52 am

First topic message reminder :

I missed the Chiefs game on the weekend - did Slade have a good one?
Seems like he is starting to focus on 13 - I do wonder if that is a directive from RFU.
12 is quite well stocked with Teo and hybrid 12's in Farrell, Lozowski.
After Saints demolition - Is Piers Francis still in the mix for some people?
Joseph I am sure will come back into the mix.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 4:38 pm

Any news on Hughes citing for a forearm to the back of Marcus Smiths head?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 4:39 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Any news on Hughes citing for a forearm to the back of Marcus Smiths head?

That was the later review.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by BamBam on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 4:40 pm

Tea and biscuits are currently being consumed following the strain of making judgements in the Hartley/Marler cases

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by nathan on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 4:54 pm

Genge is also fit to play, ankle is fine

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 4:56 pm

If EJ names his squad tomorrow he should immediately withdraw the whole squad from playing the prem fixtures this weekend and wrap them in cotton wool. No hardcore physical training sessions please Eddie - we cant afford any more injuries

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 25 Oct 2017, 8:26 pm

Hughes gets 2 weeks.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 7:16 am

So he's cleared for the AI then...

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 8:29 am

Does a ban mean you cant play a game? Or does it also include training with the squad?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:06 am

propdavid_london wrote:Does a ban mean you cant play a game? Or does it also include training with the squad?

These are purely match bans - so unlike for a drugs ban the players can train with their team.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:17 am

Right - So EJ is unlikely to drop Marler from the squad then.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:21 am

propdavid_london wrote:Right - So EJ is unlikely to drop Marler from the squad then.


Depends. While it is a 3 week ban, they have chosen to ignore the "off week" it seems, so he would be unavailable for the first two tests.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:25 am

Backs

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Inside backs
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins) *
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards

Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Front row
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:27 am

18 year-old Marcus Smith (Harlequins) and 20 year-old Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) included as apprentices in the England squad. Both players won’t be named in match day squads but will be involved in England’s training and preparation for the three-match series.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:29 am

propdavid_london wrote:Right - So EJ is unlikely to drop Marler from the squad then.

I think it will depend on the appeal.

As things stand, Marler will only be free to play Samoa. If he wants to have a look at Genge starting, does he really need Marler for the bench? If the Ban stands as it is then I could see him dropping Marler. Sinckler is in the same boat, but Jones hasn't started Sinckler yet, so he might keep him around. I'd say Jones is pretty comfortable with what Marler can offer so there isn't the same need to experiment.

The twist though, is that Hughes is banned for 2 weeks and doesn't miss any England games, whilst Marler is banned for 3 weeks, but misses 2 England games. The panel discounted the weekend 4th-5th for Marler, but didn't for Hughes. That may change and if it does, I reckon Jones will be much more likely to keep Marler on.



EDIT seeing the previous post now, do you think if Marlers becomes available for 2 tests he will call him back in? Can he do that?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:31 am

So Hughes plays at 8 for all the games, with Simmonds most likely coming off the bench.

The other big comment....6 LOCKS!!!! So some of them are covering the back row.

Robshaw, Curry and Underhill are fighting for the two starting spots.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:34 am

GF,

I found it interesting that the RFU statement broke the players down as they did. By Full Backs I assume they mean back 3, then in the pack we have Front Row and Back Five.

With Lawes and Itoje playing 6 for club this season - perhaps they are being viewed as cover there, however I hope 6 locks is more a reflection of a desire to rest these two guys from at least some of the games.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:36 am

Injury attrition rate being what it is at the moment - you may well want to have an extra experienced prop to call on if needed.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:37 am

Brown, May, Slade, Farrell, Daly, Ford, Youngs, Vunipola, Hartley, Cole, Itoje, Kruis, Robshaw, Underhill, Hughes.

That's my guess for Argentina.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:38 am

England squad in full:

Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Marcus Smith (Harlequins) *, Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Forwards: Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *, Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs).

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:38 am

propdavid_london wrote:Injury attrition rate being what it is at the moment - you may well want to have an extra experienced prop to call on if needed.

As it is they have named 3 LHs in the squad (along with 3 hookers and 2 THs) which means the chances of Marler being called up for the last game are slim. Interesting that the extra cover in teh front row is for positions where we have starting Lions.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:39 am

propdavid_london wrote:England squad in full:

Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Marcus Smith (Harlequins) *, Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Forwards: Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *, Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs).

Is this any different to the squad posted higher up? Run

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:40 am

LondonTiger wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Injury attrition rate being what it is at the moment - you may well want to have an extra experienced prop to call on if needed.

As it is they have named 3 LHs in the squad (along with 3 hookers and 2 THs) which means the chances of Marler being called up for the last game are slim. Interesting that the extra cover in teh front row is for positions where we have starting Lions.

He did call up 4 LH and only 2 TH for the last 6N.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:41 am

Please give Lawes some time off.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:41 am

cascough wrote:Brown, May, Slade, Farrell, Daly, Ford, Youngs, Vunipola, Hartley, Cole, Itoje, Kruis, Robshaw, Underhill, Hughes.

That's my guess for Argentina.

I would be surprised to see Watson and Lawes left out.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:42 am

Scottrf wrote:Please give Lawes some time off.

I agree. Same with Itoje - but I expect both to feature in the first game at least.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:43 am

LondonTiger wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:England squad in full:

Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Marcus Smith (Harlequins) *, Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Forwards: Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *, Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs).

Is this any different to the squad posted higher up? Run
No, I am just having a slow morning.....

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:45 am

Why is Dunn still there? Its the only name that I don't really get!

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:46 am

LondonTiger wrote:
cascough wrote:Brown, May, Slade, Farrell, Daly, Ford, Youngs, Vunipola, Hartley, Cole, Itoje, Kruis, Robshaw, Underhill, Hughes.

That's my guess for Argentina.

I would be surprised to see Watson and Lawes left out.

I worked on the (possibly foolish, now that I think about it) presumption that he would pick May. I can't see him dropping Brown, so it becomes a shootout between Daly and Watson. Could go either way if the rest is correct, but ultimately I'd be more surprised if he left Daly out.

As for Lawes, this wouldn't surprise me at all. Jones is no respecter of form if it doesn't fit his particular requirements. Jones has repeatedly mentioned how he sees Itoje and Kruis as his best scrummaging locks, and with both available (and Steve Borthwick as coach) I'd pencil those two in. For me, Lawes only starts if he benches/drops Robshaw. And again, that would be a bigger surprise to me.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:46 am

I guess we'll see if Simmonds perceived (by myself aswell) size issues are a factor or not.

We could end one game with a back row of

6 Underhill
7 Curry
8 Simmonds

That'd barely be over 6' and 16st...tiny for a back row (but still explosive)

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:47 am

propdavid_london wrote:Why is Dunn still there? Its the only name that I don't really get!

Im still jurys out on Ewell aswell im afraid.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 9:59 am

With Taylor and LCD both out I can see how Dunn scrapes in. Exciting looking squad all in all.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by BamBam on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:00 am

Hooker is probably the only position where the U20s haven't had a standout recently

Walker looked very good but has he had any game time for Bath?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:07 am

Wouldn't Yeandle be a better option at hooker. He always seems to put in a cracking shift and solid at all the key jobs...

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:11 am

Ah and no Haskell! Just realised!

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:13 am

I always thought that Yeandle of Chiefs put in a good shift. Obviously isn't what Eddie is looking for!
EJ might just be biding his time till Taylor or LCD come back from injury.
The Quins no.2's haven't been firing at all and/or injured.
Thought Jack Singleton was the up and coming from U20's......

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:14 am

And Thacker obviously doesn't fit into Eddies plan at all.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:27 am

Does Thacker even fit into Leicesters plan?? He's just too small!

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Cumbrian on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:30 am

BamBam wrote:Hooker is probably the only position where the U20s haven't had a standout recently

Walker looked very good but has he had any game time for Bath?

He signed on for a Bath and got a serious injury almost straight away, scuppered most of last season. Shame because I reckon he could have played himself into a good position for this squad. Still, he is only 21 and has a lot of time on his side.
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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by TightHEAD on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:42 am

Haskell has left the building.
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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:44 am

Lets hope Care and Youngs are available for the World Cup...

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:44 am

Walker has featured in most of Bath's games this season - 3 starts and 4 bench appearances.

The injuries that ruled him out of JWC 16 and then meant 16/17 season was spent with the physio came at a bad time - but yes he is young.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:52 am

Is Eddie making a statement about his lack of approval on the reaction to 'water-squirt' incident?
Or is it simply a case of Hask is not on form and Underhill needs a decent test?
GF - I agree that Ewells is a drop from the other locks in the squad.
He seems to do the basics well but isn't a stand out, sort of a modern day Attwood. I am sure I have also seen him packing down for Bath at some point in the back row!

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Cumbrian on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:54 am

My initial thoughts on the squad are that it looks quite fresh and exciting. Ther are opportunities there for young lads to go out and make a name for themselves. It is also an incredibly young set of forwards with the following all being 22 or under!

Tom Curry
Charlie Ewels
Nick Isiekwe
Maro Itoje
Zach Mercer
Sam Simmons
Sam Underhill
Ellis Genge


That is not to say the rest of the forwards are exactly getting on either. Only Chris Robshaw, Matt Mullan, Dan Cole and Dylan Hartley are over 30. Three of them are front rowers and for props that means they are entering their prime.

However, there are a few areas of slight concern for me. The fact that there are only two tightheads (one of whom should really be having some time off). There is also no power runner in the midfield like Te'o or Burrell to offer an alternative.
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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:55 am

propdavid_london wrote:Is Eddie making a statement about his lack of approval on the reaction to 'water-squirt' incident?
Or is it simply a case of Hask is not on form and Underhill needs a decent test?
GF - I agree that Ewells is a drop from the other locks in the squad.  
He seems to do the basics well but isn't a stand out, sort of a modern day Attwood.  I am sure I have also seen him packing down for Bath at some point in the back row!
Haskell's just too limited. No way is Jones thinking about that incident IMO.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by yappysnap on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:57 am

Was it Piers Francis that played 10 on the weekend for Saints? If so he’s barely premiership level at the moment, needs a lot of work. Is he usually a 10 or just shuffled there because of injuries?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Cumbrian on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:59 am

Haskell has also been dogged with poor form/ long term niggling injury for a while now. At 32 (with his style of play) I believed it was only a matter of time until he was phased out and I believe that is what we are seeing here.
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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 11:00 am

I think Underhill is the younger version of Haskell. Same role...and huge defence.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 11:01 am

More a 12. Did reasonably well over the summer but can't see him sticking around with england for long.

I was a bit on the fence with Ewells but he did well in Argentina. He's young enough that he should.be improving quite a lot so will be interesting to see if he's still favoured over isiekwe.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 11:03 am

yappysnap wrote:Was it Piers Francis that played 10 on the weekend for Saints? If so he’s barely premiership level at the moment, needs a lot of work. Is he usually a 10 or just shuffled there because of injuries?

It was. He played Super Rugby at 10 for half a season so I think 'barely premiership level' is a bit silly.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Cumbrian on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 11:04 am

I think Underhill is like Haskell, but with more game awareness. He has far more nous at the break down too. He doesn't simply seem to rely on hitting everything as hard as possible, he can jackal too.
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