England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

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England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 10:52 am

First topic message reminder :

I missed the Chiefs game on the weekend - did Slade have a good one?
Seems like he is starting to focus on 13 - I do wonder if that is a directive from RFU.
12 is quite well stocked with Teo and hybrid 12's in Farrell, Lozowski.
After Saints demolition - Is Piers Francis still in the mix for some people?
Joseph I am sure will come back into the mix.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 11:07 am

On haskell

"I had a good chat to Haskell on Saturday, " said head coach Jones.

"At the moment he's just not playing well enough, but the door isn't shut to him. He's been a great servant to English rugby and I'm sure he can regain his form."

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 11:13 am

He also mentions that yarde hasn't scored enough tries for harlequins over solomona at sale for inclusion. We want a try scorer on the right wing.

Though I prefer solomona not sure I buy the reasoning.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by TightHEAD on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 11:19 am

Underhill will tackle all day long, but with ball in hand I don't think he'll excite Eddie. But then again as long as he doesn't run into posts he'll be an improvement on Haskell.
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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 11:20 am

How about this for the first test?

1 Mako (40 mins, then Genge)
2 Hartley (40 mins then George)
3 Cole (40 mins then Williams)
4 Kruis
5 Launchbury / Isiekwe
6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Hughes

9 Youngs
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Slade
14 Solomana
15 Watson

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 11:21 am

I still think Curry offers more alround game than Underhill. However Underhill seems to have insane power which is what Eddie will want.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 11:35 am

I agree with what someone said above - we need a bit more solidity in the centres. A good few games were won last season with T'eo coming off the bench and adding real directness and physicality in the midfield.
Who will do that from this squad? Joseph, Slade, Francis, Daly are all good defenders (don't know about Francis yet) but they don't bring that change in game that Eddie has liked from his finishers...

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 12:06 pm

Jim Hamilton says Genge is known for going off-gameplan sometimes during a match. He gave an example of a call going up, when everyone is expected to do one thing, and Genge will end up doing something entirely different.

It's not clear whether Hamilton thought that was down to forgetfulness, ignorance, or an attempt to improvise. I've never heard that about him, but I'd be interested to know if Tigers supporters know of this.

Unless it's improvisation which always comes off, then it's probably a quality Genge needs to lose (if he indeed has it), to make an impact in a team run by Jones.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by yappysnap on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 12:38 pm

He really wasn’t very good. Didn’t look like he knew how to play 10 tbh, certainly looked shoe horned into that position. Half a season in SR isn’t a great cv either.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 1:04 pm

yappysnap wrote:He really wasn’t very good. Didn’t look like he knew how to play 10 tbh, certainly looked shoe horned into that position. Half a season in SR isn’t a great cv either.
Half a season at 10. With playing 12 before that. SR is a step above Prem.

You're judging him on a game in wet conditions, back from injury in a side with a number of changes.

He already has 2 assists for England btw.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by TightHEAD on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 3:24 pm

Roko deserved a run out.
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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 3:45 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Roko deserved a run out.

Instead of whom?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by lostinwales on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 3:57 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Roko deserved a run out.

Instead of whom?

My thoughts. We have some very good wings

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 8:22 pm

I agree with the idea of resting laws, he has had too many games in recent times, but to drop him instead of resting him is daft. He has might have been playing 6 this season for Saints, but he hasn't dropped off on form despite the games and last season was probably the best lock in the NH, way ahead of Kruis, both this year and last. Even Gatland recognised that! Oh, just remembered he preferred a certain knackered Welshman over both to start, so probably not a good recommendation.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Exiledinborders on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He also mentions that yarde hasn't scored enough tries for harlequins over solomona at sale for inclusion. We want a try scorer on the right wing.

Though I prefer solomona not sure I buy the reasoning.
It is an odd comment considering his refusal to pick Wade or Ashton over the last couple of seasons.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 10:08 pm

Can I just ask to those who've seen him more.

Simmonds is a runner that much is obvious. But what's the rest of his game like. His ruckng, his tackling etc etc

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Gwlad on Thu 26 Oct 2017, 11:13 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Hartley cited again, this has to be the end of him now surely, what a donut. Rolling Eyes

Citing dismissed thumbsup

but he's done as skipper and hooker anyway

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 27 Oct 2017, 2:24 am

Seems Marler will now be available for Australia if Jones wants him. Main argument for including him would be to rest Mako.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41771309

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Fri 27 Oct 2017, 8:50 am

Gwlad wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Hartley cited again, this has to be the end of him now surely, what a donut. Rolling Eyes

Citing dismissed thumbsup

but he's done as skipper and hooker anyway

Why do you keep saying things that can be proven as nonsense so soon after you post them? Most idiots try to hide it.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 27 Oct 2017, 9:10 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:He also mentions that yarde hasn't scored enough tries for harlequins over solomona at sale for inclusion. We want a try scorer on the right wing.

Though I prefer solomona not sure I buy the reasoning.
It is an odd comment considering his refusal to pick Wade or Ashton over the last couple of seasons.


Well for the most part he seems to have picked outside backs with a wider range of skills than just out and out try scorers...not to say that he likes of Watson, May , Daly and Nowell arent strong attacking players; but they have a lot more to their game than that.
I guess with Wade (and Aston) and Slomomona you arent getting a lot else from them, so if they are going to get into the side then they need to be exceptionaly strong in that area and in good form. If all you bring to the table is try scoring dont be surprised to be judged on that.
It could just be a throw away comment of course, but perhaps also reveals that he doesnt bother watching too much club rugby and instead picks up on whos doing well at any given time and what hes seen or had reported to him from the wider coaching staff. In fairness theres probably not a great deal between these guys, and if theres one space going which are you going to pick.
Or it might be that he couldnt be bothered to answer a boring question in a press conference in excruiciating detail only to find his commenst distilled down to a misleading soundbite for a cheap headline. Who knows.

Does anyone feel that Wade and Ashton were genuinely unfiraly overlooked either the last two years (on evidence at the time or hindsight), or that either deserves a place in the sqaud now? (Leaving Solomanas nationality out of it)
Personaly I feel Wade has been a touch unfortunate to not get more caps through the last few years but I dont see it as massively controversial that he hasnt ...arguably more so under Lancaster than now given the relative strength of the wing options England currently have.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by TightHEAD on Fri 27 Oct 2017, 9:15 am

lostinwales wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Roko deserved a run out.

Instead of whom?

My thoughts. We have some very good wings

Brown.

Move Watson to FB.
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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Fri 27 Oct 2017, 9:38 am

Gooseberry wrote:It could just be a throw away comment of course, but perhaps also reveals that he doesnt bother watching too much club rugby

I'm not sure. If we have a game which doesn't clash, he's almost always at the Gardens.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 27 Oct 2017, 9:41 am

Gooseberry wrote:Does anyone feel that Wade and Ashton were genuinely unfairly overlooked either the last two years
I think Ashton was unfairly banned, which contributed to Jones leaving him out. Ashton was selected but had to be replaced when he was unavailable. After that, Ashton concluded Jones had moved on, and went to France.

Worst thing to happen to Wade was being called up to the Lions by Gatland, and missing out on game time in Argentina in 2013. Jones showed he was willing to look at one of the Premiership finishers by trying Roko (briefly). Hard to say who he should have left out to give Wade a try. May is currently showing how a player can look like he is developing his game. Suspect other wing contenders need to be doing the same.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by nlpnlp on Fri 27 Oct 2017, 11:59 pm

Wade has been out of form this season and dropped by Wasps before coming 'back to form' against Harlequins in the ECC. Wade is a player that you would need to build your backline around to compensate for his weaknesses. Likewise Ashton had some good strengths, but big weaknesses. Sometimes the team is better having players who are good in lots of things rather than players who are excellent in one or two and average in two or three.

It is the same with Cipriani - he is very good at some things, but less good at others. The last 2 or 3 coaches have gone with Farrell or Ford over Cipriani. It is about making the best out of the whole team and not one or two individuals.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 28 Oct 2017, 12:26 pm

Wales and England are training together before the AI s apparently. Scrums and lineouts with owens reffing.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Cumbrian on Sat 28 Oct 2017, 12:49 pm

I read about that too and on the surface it seems a good idea, but we are running precariously low on fit/in form tight heads. I hope it isn't too full-blooded.
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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 28 Oct 2017, 4:03 pm

Elliot Daly hasn't come out for the second half against Saints. Knee causing him some discomfort.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 28 Oct 2017, 4:19 pm

Matt Mullan has gone off, looking in some pain too.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 28 Oct 2017, 4:50 pm

Piers Francis had to be helped off the field minutes before the end. That's three England squad doubts in one game.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 29 Oct 2017, 3:37 pm

HIA for Watson. We'll see if he comes back.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 29 Oct 2017, 4:03 pm

Watson came back on but Underhill has been replaced. TV shows him icing his shoulder.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sun 29 Oct 2017, 4:11 pm

Awesome move from Falcons, great turnover by Tigers

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by kingelderfield on Sun 29 Oct 2017, 7:44 pm

These coming autumn internationals look as if they're going to provide a far greater challenge than was previously expected. Injuries, suspensions, Lions exhaustion and general fatigue will test EJ and his coaches and all the depth of our playing resources.

We may lose to Oz? We may not, but as always one players loss is another's opportunity and this testing of resources is bound to throw up another rough diamond or two. Either way if managed correctly it should help us in the broader WC preparation allowing us to refine and focus our game plan and selection requirements.

Separately the right wing and more broadly back 3 selection is becoming quite a defining specter. Wade's *inability, Solomona's defense, Yarde's tantrums, Brown's demise and Daly's form and injury (plus Watson's HIA?) will require a lot of head scratching to redress.

My preference; May (the clown has hit a genuine seam of form), Watson and Wade

Obviously our backs lack size but hopefully they'll make this up with pace and guile;

Youngs, Ford, Wade/Solomona, Farrell, Joseph/Slade, May & Watson

Edit; Nowell is injured?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by lostinwales on Sun 29 Oct 2017, 8:40 pm

Nowell has a bust cheekbone. Wade won't get a look in, sorry. He hasn't been on any kind of form this season although I appreciate he's starting to get some tries now. Roko has more chance (and has also been on form).

Sounds like Watson could really do with a break, because he just seems to be going from one injury to another at the moment. We are just lucky they have not been significant ones. He is important going forward and I don't want to see him broken.

Solomona isn't small, just useless in defense. Attack however... No team is going to want to see a Solomona/ May wing combo, although they will fancy their chances attacking Solomona's wing.

As for the AI. Who knows. I'd like to think we can win them all. Oz just had a great victory but
1) we are at home 2) we mostly raise our game vs the SD's 3) they have plenty of issues with players missing, for the right reasons (Folau) or because of injuries.

The injuries we have are what they are. Mostly we have cover, and at least on the flanks we have options including the Curry twins. I really want Underhill to do well, but am getting concerned that he's made of glass.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by kingelderfield on Sun 29 Oct 2017, 9:01 pm

The made of Glass description is one I too have used and is beginning to appear apt. Lets hope we're wrong.

Actually having seen the Oz win it has to be said it was the AB's worst performance of the year, or in fact for many years.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Sun 29 Oct 2017, 9:40 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Roko deserved a run out.

Instead of whom?

My thoughts. We have some very good wings

Brown.

Move Watson to FB.

Nah, not happening. None of the other options provide what Brown does.

I know Brown is easy to dislike, and there are clearly things he doesn't do as well other players, but there're plenty of things he does excellently that are clearly of great value. Even if you don't rate Brown, it should be obvious by now that the guy picking the team does. Would be absolutely amazed if Jones drops Brown.

On a wider note, how much do we think Jones will actually experiment and/or rest his Lions? I have a suspicion that's just another ploy to keep his preferred team on it's toes.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by lostinwales on Sun 29 Oct 2017, 11:09 pm

Oh I have always liked Brown and what he brings to the game, not least how he gets the players around him working.

He's not getting any younger though, and I don't know if he's going to be good enough in 2019.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 8:41 am

He will turn 34 a couple of weeks before the tournament starts, which to be honest, is a year older than I thought he was. Pace isn't a big asset for him now, and he is very durable, so I could see him being a similar player in 2019. It is a worry though that we don't have like for like or even similar backup for him.




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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 8:53 am

Brown will stay put for the moment - current injuries for Nowell and Daly mean Watson will start on the Wing.
Unless Eddie plans on pulling in Alex Goode then I cant see anyone else in the 15 shirt.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 8:54 am

What does Brown offer at the moment that Goode doesn't?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 9:00 am

Well, for starters he is in the squad.
Brown offers generally a bit more physicality, aggression and solidity in defence.
That's not to say that Goode doesn't have those qualities but Brown offers a bit more dog.

There is another possibility why Jones will keep Brown - and that's the lack of a physical player in the mid-field. No Teo to straighten the line and play the power game means you need someone out there for the hard yards - and Brown will give you more of that than Goode. (despite a drop in form)

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by munkian on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 9:02 am

propdavid_london wrote:Well, for starters he is in the squad.
Brown offers generally a bit more physicality, aggression and solidity in defence.  
That's not to say that Goode doesn't have those qualities but Brown offers a bit more dog.

There is another possibility why Jones will keep Brown - and that's the lack of a physical player in the mid-field.  No Teo to straighten the line and play the power game means you need someone out there for the hard yards - and Brown will give you more of that than Goode. (despite a drop in form)

He does ?
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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 9:03 am

Farrell offers perhaps a bit more physicality (edginess) than a lot of 10/12's too, but not necessarily the hard running lines.
Simmonds if he gets a chance may well pop up in the midfield and offer the physical edge (from no.8) and Hughes hits the line from the midfield too.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 9:04 am

Munkian - discount recent Quins games where the whole team cant number up in defence!

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 9:11 am

With farrell and possibly slade starting these matches the main reason for Goode really disappears. I think for at least one match injuries permitting we will see solomona may and Watson though. For me at the moment that's probably the one with most potential to be extremely good. Not to say we haven't got quite a few really good.wingers fighting it out.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by beshocked on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 9:12 am

Brown was at his best in 2014 but has slowly declined year on year.

I just don't think he's making the same amount of ground he used to which makes it even more obvious about his inability to pass the ball.


He's not as good as he used to be. I think he's a selfish player to be honest and in a team game that's not good.



Goode won't be an option as long as Jones continues to have an extra playmaker in the centres though.

If Ford or Farrell picks up a long term injury though he could become an option as an extra playmaker in the backline.

Of course there are others like Slade,Lozowski who Jones could look to but still inexperienced at international level.


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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by kingelderfield on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 9:19 am

Drop Brown now and get on with the future. Time waits for no coach, but does make a slow coach slower.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 9:40 am

So is everyone agreed that the best future option at 15 for England is Watson?
Who is the backup?
Mallinder?
Max Malins?
Haley

Goode and Watson are the only other 15s in the prem that have had international experience.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 9:41 am

Will Eliot Daly be considered a 15 eventually or remain a utility 13/wing?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by BamBam on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 9:42 am

Goode has thankfully been put out to pasture

Give Watson first crack after Brown, he plays there successfully for club and has all the attributes to be a top class international FB (although I do think he needs to be more consistent with his kicking)

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 9:57 am

munkian wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Well, for starters he is in the squad.
Brown offers generally a bit more physicality, aggression and solidity in defence.  
That's not to say that Goode doesn't have those qualities but Brown offers a bit more dog.

There is another possibility why Jones will keep Brown - and that's the lack of a physical player in the mid-field.  No Teo to straighten the line and play the power game means you need someone out there for the hard yards - and Brown will give you more of that than Goode. (despite a drop in form)

He does ?

i think his defence is excellent, but not just because of decent first up tackling. His positioning is good, and his breakdown work is really great. So often he makes a last ditch tackle and then slows the ball or even turns it over. Really valuable to have that in your side. My point with Brown is he's different to other options. Clearly Eddie likes what he brings and there's no-one challenging that.

People are suggesting players to replace Brown who they think are better than Brown, but it's not that simple. Clearly Eddie likes what Brown brings. So you need to find someone who brings those same things AND a little bit more if you want to replace him. I'm not seeing anyone. Nowell is the closest for me. Don't think he's played a great deal of fullback though.

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