England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

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England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 10:52 am

First topic message reminder :

I missed the Chiefs game on the weekend - did Slade have a good one?
Seems like he is starting to focus on 13 - I do wonder if that is a directive from RFU.
12 is quite well stocked with Teo and hybrid 12's in Farrell, Lozowski.
After Saints demolition - Is Piers Francis still in the mix for some people?
Joseph I am sure will come back into the mix.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 12:35 pm

Harry Williams - Or is he a TH?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 12:39 pm

Nathan Catt maybe?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by beshocked on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 12:47 pm

Could Beno Obano come into contention?

On a similar note Nick Auterac seems to have disappeared off the radar.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 1:03 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Harry Williams - Or is he a TH?

In the squad as the second TH

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 1:15 pm

Catt was briefly involved last year so may be on the radar.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Poorfour on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 1:17 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Harry Williams - Or is he a TH?

In the squad as the second TH

Though from what I have seen his scrummaging more closely resembles a large sack of potatoes falling over. Very good in the loose, though.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Cumbrian on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 1:45 pm

We'd be running short of potential loose heads if another one had to be called up. Aside from the ones mentioned there is possibly Val Rapava Ruskin or Ross Harrison?
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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by lostinwales on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 2:34 pm

beshocked wrote:Could Beno Obano come into contention?

On a similar note Nick Auterac seems to have disappeared off the radar.

I think Auterac has turned into a bit of a sick note. Certainly seems to have missed a lot of the last couple of seasons.

Still, as long as the injuries are fixable props have more time to come good than most other positions.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 2:39 pm

EQP Looseheads featuring last weekend:

Saracens - Mako, Barrington
Exeter - Rimmer, Hepburn
Leicester - Genge, Bateman
Bath - Catt, Obano
Quins - Lambert, Boyce
Saints - Waller
Falcons - Vickers
Gloucester - Rapava Ruskin
Wasps - Mullan, McIntyre
Sale - Harrison, Flynn
LI - Elrington
Worcester - Waller, Bower

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 2:40 pm

JFR has been in squads before and plays both sides, but hasn't had much gametime.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by tazfalklands on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 2:46 pm

My main issue with Mike Brown is not what he does when he catches a ball kicked deep. I would take a full back who runs to his support, than one who looks for space against an advancing defending line and gets isolated.

It's that when England do make a break and he gets the ball 1 or 2 defenders to beat he still looks for the contact, not for the pass.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 2:52 pm

Scottrf wrote:JFR has been in squads before and plays both sides, but hasn't had much gametime.

He looked interesting last year - but got little gametime, and is possibly getting less after the move.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 2:57 pm

Unfortunately we are a graveyard for forwards at the moment, with a couple of exceptions.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Poorfour on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 3:48 pm

tazfalklands wrote:My main issue with Mike Brown is not what he does when he catches a ball kicked deep. I would take a full back who runs to his support, than one who looks for space against an advancing defending line and gets isolated.

It's that when England do make a break and he gets the ball 1 or 2 defenders to beat he still looks for the contact, not for the pass.

Which recent games has that happened in, though? Certainly not against Argentina. I can't recall any obvious ones in the 6N

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 5:48 pm

Always wondered why Waller doesnt get much of a look in, quality all rounder imo.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 7:21 pm

McIntyre is the man.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 12:44 pm

Bit more on the England Wales training session from the BBC article.

'Wales will prepare for the Australia match by holding a forwards session behind closed doors against England in Bristol on Monday, 6 November.

"Given our proximity it is a good idea and should be both for good teams," said Gatland.

"It will be well managed. We will do some line-outs and won't do any mauling.

"We will do some scrummaging session and make sure it is controlled. Both sets of forwards want to get as much out of as they can.

"It gives us a good feel of where we are at and hopefully preparation for the Australia games.

"It is something we could look at for the future if we can both benefit out of it and we will see how Monday goes."

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 1:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit more on the England Wales training session from the BBC article.
Ex-players on this week's podcasts don't seem to like the idea very much.

Brian Moore said he would never have wanted an opposition player to have a little victory over him, so, rather than go backwards, he would have collapsed the scrum. Since it's a training session, collapsing carries no penalty.

Other players are convinced there'll be a punch-up and/or someone will get injured, so wonder whether the costs will end up outweighing whatever benefits the coaches imagine will accrue.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 1:53 pm

I don't remember ever hearing of something like this before. Could help england more than wales.given it's owens reffing but one or more injuries and people will point fingers. I suppose it's just another way of training rather than calling up a wider squad. Not entirely sure how I feel about it keep changing my mind.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 2:39 pm

kingelderfield wrote:McIntyre is the man.
Thought he was American?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Mr Bounce on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 5:11 pm

Road Runner out of the Argentina game.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41836714

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by kingelderfield on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 5:25 pm

Wasps Simon McIntyre is English.
Wade is also English and can't be more than another injury from selection?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Mr Bounce on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 5:35 pm

kingelderfield wrote:Wasps Simon McIntyre is English.
Wade is also English and can't be more than another injury from selection?

Apparently Yarde is the next cab off the rank but he's had recent well-documented problems. Jones has not showed much interest in Wade as he's a bit titchy compared to the 6ft plus wingers he's used to and his defence has always been regarded as suspect. I for one hope that he gets the chance.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by kingelderfield on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 5:45 pm

Yarde has been a favourite of Jones, however I do think Jones's judgement has been arbitrary in regard to Wade, especially when you compare his selections of others; May, Yarde, Solomono and Roko. None are good defenders and some are not as good as Wade.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Mr Bounce on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 5:49 pm

They also don't have his (dare I say it) "X Factor". Woodward rates him massively (he knows a little bit about rugby) and I am confused as to why we've instead had two fullbacks and a converted centre as our back three for so long. They're good don't get me wrong - but I hate players out of their natural position.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 6:03 pm

This probably does mean that Watson stays on the wing. Another couple wade may sneak in or possibly someone like Woodburn as an outside chance.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by compelling and rich on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 6:23 pm

never been sold on wade being a international wing. far too suspect in defence. while its not roko and solomonas greatest strength at least they are the size of international wings. you imagine someone like Kuridrani getting a run at wade, it would be a total mismatch

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by yappysnap on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 6:43 pm

How often does that happen though?

And guys like Brown, Lawes, Launchbury, Robshaw etc are very hood at tracking back and covering

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by compelling and rich on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 6:54 pm

well never because the england coaches obviously have the same doubts as me so dont pick him.

its hardly unlikely that a large outside centre wouldn't get at least couple of chances to run at a wing

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by kingelderfield on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 4:08 am

I suppose the greater issue really is why are the RFU breaking players in training?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 8:22 am

It's not just the one on one, which doesn't happen that much in a game (although could be a 7pt incident), it's the cross field kicks and high balls. Look at Barrett for example, he is the master at this. Wade would be targeted relentlessly.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by kingelderfield on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 8:26 am

Actually Wade has a very good leap under the high ball.
Did Jason Robinson play for England?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 8:32 am

Wade is not Robinson......and I dare say the cross field kick is used more and is more a precise skill today.

I don't think Wade is an Int wing personally and he's hardly been in great form this season.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 8:35 am

Disappointing that a guy like Wade doesn't get the chance to play against the ABs for the BaaBaas.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by mid_gen on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 8:40 am

Wade isn't Jason Robinson, apart from not having as good a step, he doesn't have any of his physical presence....Robinson went into contact like a raging bull, legs pumping and pushing defences onto the back foot.

I'd have Watson, Nowell, Rokodoguni, Yarde or May before Wade. Tbh I'd like to see Charlie Walker get into the setup soon as well.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 8:51 am

kingelderfield wrote:Yarde has been a favourite of Jones, however I do think Jones's judgement has been arbitrary in regard to Wade, especially when you compare his selections of others; May, Yarde, Solomono and Roko. None are good defenders and some are not as good as Wade.

Not sure that's anything more than opinion.

I've not seen much of Solomona, but his try scoring record is inescapable, as is Rokoduguni's. Perhaps May is finally showing what he can do in a good team, he's been the best in ENG this year. The only one I'm seeing a clear case for is Yarde. However, even then it could be argued that Yarde's increased physicality puts him ahead of Wade. To be clear, I'm not saying I think Yarde is better than Wade, just that I can see why someone might prefer him in their team.

I've not studied much of any of those four's defence so i couldn't comment on who is the best/weakest. I would add though, that defence is more positioning and desire/workrate than it is power or tackle technique, put simply, it's a lot more than one on one. Therefore unless you study each of the four wingers defensive games, I don't know how you decide who is a good defender. I'm happy to accept that Jones will have studied this, and does have a reason for suggesting Wade is weak defensively.


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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 9:00 am

cascough wrote:Brown, May, Slade, Farrell, Daly, Ford, Youngs, Vunipola, Hartley, Cole, Itoje, Kruis, Robshaw, Underhill, Hughes.

That's my guess for Argentina.

So my first choice wingers are out!

Watson in on the right wing, but will Roko leapfrog Solomona? I've a feeling he might, I just can't shake the feeling Jones wouldn't have wanted to be starting Solomona at this stage.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 9:12 am

Saw Marcus Smith has also come home with ankle injury....not that he was likely to play in the Nov tests - but a big blow for Quins if serious.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 9:23 am

Wade is quite easily the worst defender on that list.

Are you a Wasps fan King?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by beshocked on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 9:49 am

It's fair point kingelderfield makes.

Not as if Jones is picking many of the wingers bar Nowell on defensive ability.


I can't say I've seen Yarde's mythical physicality.

A winger can be protected more in the right defensive organisation - it's why Ashton whilst not the best tackler didn't get caught out that many times for Saracens.

Need to protect your weaker defenders.


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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by kingelderfield on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 10:33 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Wade is quite easily the worst defender on that list.

Are you a Wasps fan King?

You betcha baby Very Happy

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 10:48 am

Robshaw has put the boot into yarde as well now. Doesn't sound like the type of guy that Jones would want involved. How much notice he'll take about his quins vs england behaviour is up for debate or even if he behaves like that for England. Doesn't sound good for him though.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 10:49 am

Your defence of Wade makes more sense now lol.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by beshocked on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 10:57 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Robshaw has put the boot into yarde as well now. Doesn't sound like the type of guy that Jones would want involved. How much notice he'll take about his quins vs england behaviour is up for debate or even if he behaves like that for England. Doesn't sound good for him though.

To be frank has Jones ever cared about discipline of players when it comes to England?

No not really.

If Yarde comes back stronger from Sale, Jones will pick him.


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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 10:58 am

beshocked wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Robshaw has put the boot into yarde as well now. Doesn't sound like the type of guy that Jones would want involved. How much notice he'll take about his quins vs england behaviour is up for debate or even if he behaves like that for England. Doesn't sound good for him though.

To be frank has Jones ever cared about discipline of players when it comes to England?

No not really.

If Yarde comes back stronger from Sale, Jones will pick him.


He hasn't cared about on-field discipline. This is completely different. He sent Solomona and Tuilagi home. This is an attitude problem, not aggression.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 11:01 am

Yeah sending 2 guys home especially Tuilagi suggests.to me he does think it's team spirit and obeying those joint rules etc is important. I'm not sure of all the ins and outs of yarde s situation but sounds like it's situation which jones wouldn't look kindly on.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 11:07 am

beshocked wrote:

A winger can be protected more in the right defensive organisation - it's why Ashton whilst not the best tackler didn't get caught out that many times for Saracens.

Need to protect your weaker defenders.


Ashton's defence is good, he's just a poor tackler.

BT sport did a segment on Ashtons defence last year on Rugby Tonight, particularly praising his workrate and positioning.

Tackling is not defence. It's a part of defence.

To add to that, Saracens' narrow defensive system actually exposes the wingers (again BT sport have done a segment on this, and was also backed up by Jim Hamilton on the Rugby Pod) so if Ashton wasn't getting caught out, it's because he was executing very well, rather than being hidden.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 11:18 am

So apparently 14 of the 34 player England took to Portugal were unable to train yesterday!

Names mentioned include - May, Roku, Solomona, Smith, Launchbury, Underhill, Ewells. Not sure who the others were.


Same article (in Times) suggests that despite forgiving Solomona his excesses in August, EJ will not extend the same nature to Yarde's current situation. It then mentions Earle and Woodburn as possible call-ups.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 11:21 am

Wish earle was getting a few more opportunities than he is. With a couple of exceptions saracens do seem to hold back their youngsters for quite a long time.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 02 Nov 2017, 11:54 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wish earle was getting a few more opportunities than he is. With a couple of exceptions saracens do seem to hold back their youngsters for quite a long time.

I am never sure whether Saracens hold their players back, or just insist that they are performing better than the alternatives when it comes to the big games.

Helped in part by injuries, Farrell, Mako, Isiekwe and Itoje made the most of their opportunities at a young age. However the likes of Spencer, Tompkins and Earle are seemingly behid waht can be argued are only journeymen nowadays despite always looking good when they play. Jamie George was one who had to serve a long apprenticeship - yet he was still a starting Lion at 26.

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