England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

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England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by propdavid_london on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 10:52 am

First topic message reminder :

I missed the Chiefs game on the weekend - did Slade have a good one?
Seems like he is starting to focus on 13 - I do wonder if that is a directive from RFU.
12 is quite well stocked with Teo and hybrid 12's in Farrell, Lozowski.
After Saints demolition - Is Piers Francis still in the mix for some people?
Joseph I am sure will come back into the mix.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by cascough on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 2:35 pm

Scottrf wrote:Ford is one of the main reasons that England are as clinical as they are. Not sure you'd want to try to replace him.

Also, the idea of only filling the team with players from the champions is a bit silly.

I'm a huge fan of Owen Farrell, but Ford is crucial. There are youtube compilations of all England's tries from 2016 and 2017 and when looking at them all together, it struck me how crucial Ford is.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 2:39 pm

If ford couldn't win the prem or European cup with the bath side he was in....then he won't win the world cup.

See the effect Jonny Wilkinson had on Toulon with titles

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by BigGee on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 2:40 pm

Scottrf wrote:
BigGee wrote:I don't envy them

Really? I'd like to have to make the 'difficult' decision on which country to play professional sport for.

We all make difficult decisions in our lives, not many of them are irreversible.

I can imagine both players being pretty torn actually, especially GG whose father played for Scotland and it is hard to imagine that all those caps for Scotland age grade teams have not made some impression on BV. As I said though, head needs to rule heart.

Ordinary people, such as myself, who never got the call, probably imagine it is all about the heart. It is not though. We are just seeing it from the perspective of the fan.

They will probably only know if they made the right call many years down the line.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 2:42 pm

Nottswasp wrote:If ford couldn't win the prem or European cup with the bath side he was in....then he won't win the world cup.

See the effect Jonny Wilkinson had on Toulon with titles

He played for Toulon after winning the World Cup. No titles beforehand. Your point is nonsense, it's a team game.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 2:42 pm

Come on Notts you must have some reasoning why you don't rate ford be it particular skills or lack of vs form etc?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 2:46 pm

I thought Wilkinson won the prem with Newcastle?

Besides he was so far ahead of any fly half in England at the time.

Yes and as a team certain players bring up other team mates to their level....see the influence of Wilkinson...dallagio ..Vickery...catt ..lewsey...at the 2007 world cup

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 2:49 pm

So based on skills etc why would you prefer Farrell there?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 2:52 pm

You're right actually, as a young center. But in the run up to that world cup you'd have only capped Leicester players.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 2:54 pm

No I never said only one club....as I sighted Exeter chiefs as well.

Besides for the 2007 world cup...wasps were the form team...hence the influence of Vickery...Shaw... dallagio... Worsley ...lewsey

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 2:56 pm

I wouldn't...I'd actually prefer Alex Lozowski with Farrell at 12 and a fully fit Manu Tuilagi as my first choice.

But with the likes of Henry Slade and Ollie Devoto as other ball playing options

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 2:58 pm

So swap it. What does lozowski offer at 10 which ford doesn't?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 2:59 pm

2003 did have a heavy Leicester influence....Dorian west, Johnson, Kay, Corry, back, Julian white

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 3:04 pm

So....

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 3:05 pm

Alex Lozowski's passing skills are not quite as crisp as George ford...but his running, kicking and defensive skills are clearly superior

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 3:07 pm

Nottswasp wrote:2003 did have a heavy Leicester influence....Dorian west, Johnson, Kay, Corry, back, Julian white

Not arguing over having a heavy influence of the top performing teams. But excluding Ford because he didn't win a title at Bath is another thing entirely. Especially when it's for a player who hasn't won a title and doesn't start for his club.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 3:10 pm

He does look for a gap and step through it but a bit better at 12 or 13 and especially 15 rather than playing fly half for me. Seemed to struggle earlier in the season when given the chance for Saracens there. Defensively he's a bigger hitter but misses more due to technique/ tactics so fair enough.if that's what you or the coaches look for. Kicking from hand im really not sure that's true at all. I rate ford.very highly and normally has his teams playing in exactly in the right area given half a chance and works well on kick chases with may for England. From the tee it doesn't really matter for England as Farrell takes them. Thanks for the reply though as it makes more sense than simply looking at which club they come from.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 3:15 pm

Ford's kicking from hand is world class, as is his passing. What Loz offers is genuine pace and a line threat, something Ford never does these days(and Young too).

It is an issue when your halfbacks hardly ever run it, you become easier to defend against.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 3:15 pm

I can see the validity of discussing Ford v Farrell at 10 - different styles, different abilities. In the end a matter of opinion.

However keeping Faz at 12 and picking Loz at 10 seems perverse. Ford and Farrell know each other well, as childhood friends and gel well. Lozowski is struggling to get into the Sarries team and was left out of the training squad to Brighton earlier this month.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 3:21 pm

Agree LT, Loz needs to prove himself at 10. He's a genuine option at 12.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 3:22 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Not often you see a small player make it any position these days though GF. I guess if he can back it up with physicality, he may be ok.
Sgt I just think Sh is the one position that speed and that top inch in the brain matters more.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 3:50 pm

With Saracens I always thought it was the case that they want Barrett in the team with Bosch.

Farrell is a better 12 than 10.

My point is that if u want a new relationship to develop then need to start now for the world cup....because u won't win a world cup with ford at 10.. bath couldn't take one premiership title with him and exeter did with steenson so it's not a size thing...more what the Americans call "clutch" issue
Barrett, sexton and Foley all 10s who can win world cups

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 3:54 pm

Why can't you win a world cup with ford there though? Why does trying a player who was underwhelming at 10 for Saracens earlier.in the season and a pale shade of the player he was at 15 and mishield increase the chances especially as you initially wanted to try him at 12 with england this 6Ns?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 3:58 pm

We have won 22 of 23 games with him at 10 but impossible to win a world cup?

Might as well get rid of our whole team and give up on international rugby as they weren't clutch enough to beat Wales or Australia last world cup?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:05 pm

Because I thought Eddie Jones would play him at 12 rather than 10....I would play him at 10.

George ford hasn't been pulling up trees either... Leicester are awful at the moment....not that I am complaining...I support wasps lol.

No titles and not picked for the lions over Dan biggar.

With owen Farrell,Henry Slade, Alex Lozowski, Ollie devoto, jonathan joseph Ben, Te'o and Manu Tuilagi....at some point available...also the rise of marcus Smith.... Time is running out to make the changes needed to beat the all blacks.... Barrett and sbw would run all ford

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:10 pm

The unbeatable All Blacks lost more games than England last year, perhaps time is running out for them to beat England?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:23 pm

Lol yes... they drew and lost against a team without ford

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:23 pm

Foley isn't exactly a 10 to prove your point Wasps, he's extremley flaky.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:26 pm

Foley tore England a new one at the rwc and got them to the final....he has also beaten the all blacks and won the super rugby title

Foley averages 9.87 points per test match, ford is at 5.37

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:29 pm

Ford has won 22 of his last 23 test matches, Foley has won 12.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:29 pm

Nottswasp wrote:Foley tore England a new one at the rwc and got them to the final....he has also beaten the all blacks and won the super rugby title

Foley averages 9.87 points per test match, ford is at 5.37

But lost 2 tests at home against England and again 2 in Al (4 games since he won one). The WC was over 2 years ago, the S15....3 or 4. Foley is not that player anymore, he's not a top FH.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:32 pm

It appears you pick and choose when to take notice of a teams results and when to ignore them Notts. You really need to look beyond which team a player is part of and look at the player. What prevents england with ford winning a WC?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:32 pm

You are entitled to your opinion on Ford. Personally I do not agree and think some of your arguments are extremely tenuous - but in the end we have a difference of opinion.

It is my opinion that England probably will not win RWC19 no matter what players we select. However I do believe we will be genuine contenders - so there is a chance. The biggest factor to our success will be down to whether we get the right pack on the field. We currently have various issues in all 3 rows (admittedly second row is an issue of riches) but getting the right 13 forwards in the match squad who are fit and in form will have a much bigger impact than who we pick at 10.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:35 pm

Aussies were awful before the last world cup....yet up they rocked with Foley.
Also beat the all blacks last year...has ford beaten the all blacks?
Yes the all blacks lost to sexton/Farrell....ford didn't make the tour squad

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:37 pm

Front row is ok provided we have mako Vunipola and Jamie George in there.... tight head could be an issue

Launchbury and Lawes second row

Itoje, Underhill and Billy as the back row

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Scottrf on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:38 pm

Nottswasp wrote:Aussies were awful before the last world cup....yet up they rocked with Foley.
Also beat the all blacks last year...has ford beaten the all blacks?
Yes the all blacks lost to sexton/Farrell....ford didn't make the tour squad

Foley lost to Ford last November, and 3 times in 2016.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:43 pm

Vunipola has conceded the most penalties in this seasons champions cup. Lookig consistently shake in the scrum which is unusual for him. Like ford from the tre generally ok with an occasional nightmare. What does prevent england winning a WC with ford?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:43 pm

Lol Foley would be England's 10 of he was English.

Rwc final...super rugby title..beaten the all blacks..higher average points per game.

Pocock also lost to England in 2016..so he wouldn't make the team?...

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:44 pm

And while true scott doesn't affect foleys ability at all.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:45 pm

Doubt foley would be above ford for jones. He tried dropping him once and it lasted less than a half of rugby

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:47 pm

Foley hardly "rocked up" to the world cup, he came into the side in 2013.

I really don't understand how you can knock Ford and use Foley as someone who project a team to glory.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by lostinwales on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:47 pm

And you just cannot use Lions selection as a barometer of quality. Anybody chosen to go with the Lions should be good players but ultimately, it being a team game, the picks are down to the manager and his coaches and who he thinks will fit his game plan. So in the case of Biggar vs Ford all that Lions selection tells us is that Gatland felt that Biggar was a better fit for his game plan.

Knowing one player better than the other will also contribute.

We have a similar situation with England these days. It is a fact that some very good players will not get a look in, because they don't fit what Eddie wants and cannot force him to change his mind. While Eddie keeps winning who are we to argue?

I'd also add that it can be hard to work out sometimes what Ford does that makes a difference, because so much of it seems to be about the kicking from hand and subtle changes in timing, but we do generally play a lot better when he's on the pitch.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:49 pm

Nottswasp wrote:Front row is ok provided we have mako Vunipola and Jamie George in there.... tight head could be an issue

Launchbury and Lawes second row

Itoje, Underhill and Billy as the back row

If I was being ultra picky:

A LH who cannot scrummage, a hooker who stays on the wing and no TH.
Two second rows, one who cannot jump and one who cannot scrummage.
The best scrummaging 2nd row in the back row at 6 where he looked seriously out of place last season for England, a 7 who can tackle only but with dodgy technique thus a concussion waiting to happen and a number 8 who cannot stay fit.



I strongly believe that the back row you suggest wastes Itoje's talents and is not strong enough to win a world cup. But as I said before this is purely a matter of opinion. In a team game, with as many moving components as a rugby side a tournament is never won or lost by one player (unless NZ suddenly select Joe Ford for RWC 2019).

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:49 pm

Argentina would of beaten England this autumn of they had a kicker

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:50 pm

You don't appear to want to discuss anyhing in detail Notts. What's up?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:54 pm

They are the best players we have when all fit.

Btw u put Itoje in at lock for scrums.. u also have his and Lawes lineout ability...throw in occasionally jump from Launchbury and Underhill.

Injury replacements...Hughes, Simmonds, Clifford, Ewers...fact is eddy favours big ball carriers like Launchbury, Vunipolas, Hughes etc

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:56 pm

Just ignoring points now then Notts?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by lostinwales on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:57 pm

Nottswasp wrote:Argentina would of beaten England this autumn of they had a kicker

Not a hope in hell. It's like saying than in any game we would have won if only we never dropped the ball and they never held a pass.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:58 pm

Lol could say the same about u.

No premiership or European titles for bath?

Not selected for lions?

Not beaten the all blacks?

Kicking is about mindset and technique yet he is a poor kicker?

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 4:59 pm

Nottswasp wrote:Argentina would of beaten England this autumn of they had a kicker

But even with most of best players in NZ.....they didn't.

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

Post by Nottswasp on Wed 17 Jan 2018, 5:02 pm

Owen Farrell was nominated for world player of the year...and yet ford with his supposed record...got no where near

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Re: England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

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