Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by beninho on Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:57 am

First topic message reminder :

I think bailly does look a good prospect, but he is pretty raw. The spurs pairing is probably the best in tge league as a partnership. I think mendy looks an immense left back, alonso also good, I think rose is better then bertrand though, when fit. I remember a time when full backs had to defend!

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Post by Diggers on Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:29 pm

super_realist wrote:I think I've just heard Pep Southgate say the most sensible thing an England manager has ever said.

"We've been very good at writing off teams and then getting beat"

It's only taken 50 years. Well done Gareth, maybe not quite the plank I thought.

Give one example where he has acted like a plank. I know you think footballers are stupid, so actually back up what you are saying for once. Why do you deem a plank, show me any interview that shows him as thick. Every single word I've seen written about him, whether as a player or manager, talks about an intelligent, hard working and articulate bloke.
I know you have a major superiority complex which hardly helps, but just for once back up what you say.

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Post by beninho on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:41 pm

Im saying a quater final defeat to brazil or germany beckons for england. I think thats our level, but also that we would give them a game. Not remotely scared about belgium, though they could beat us.

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Post by Diggers on Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:49 pm

OK, my starting line up would be:
Butland
Walker
Gomez
Stones
McQuire
Delph/Rose/Bertrand/Young
Dier
Lallana
Alli
Sterling
Kane

I like that side, goals and pace and a bit of guile from Lallana hopefully. Hope he's brave enough to go for it.

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Post by Davie on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:35 pm

Diggers wrote:
Give one example where he has acted like a plank.

Wearing a brown paper bag over his head in a Pizza Hut advert? #JustSayin

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Post by Diggers on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:40 pm

I thought that was quite funny myself.

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Post by Diggers on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:03 pm

But I do take your point. He's also spoken out about money killing ambition for young players. And he's quietly culled some dead wood from the squad and made it clear to others they might not be his cup of tea.
He's at least been to major tournaments as a player, and in 96 and 98, by our standards, we did pretty well. I think that stands him in good stead.
I'm going for a shock semi final appearance.

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Post by pedro on Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:15 am

Diggers wrote:I'm going for a shock semi final appearance.
Here it goes again... warning

In fact one should expect 2 draws and a defeat. If stars align it’ll be 4 pts and a second round exit against Poland.

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Post by super_realist on Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:40 am

Diggers wrote:
super_realist wrote:I think I've just heard Pep Southgate say the most sensible thing an England manager has ever said.

"We've been very good at writing off teams and then getting beat"

It's only taken 50 years. Well done Gareth, maybe not quite the plank I thought.

Give one example where he has acted like a plank. I know you think footballers are stupid, so actually back up what you are saying for once. Why do you deem a plank, show me any interview that shows him as thick. Every single word I've seen written about him, whether as a player or manager, talks about an intelligent, hard working and articulate bloke.
I know you have a major superiority complex which hardly helps, but just for once back up what you say.

A plank doesn't just mean you are thick.
However if you want an example of when he's been an idiot. How about picking Joe Hart relentlessly in spite of his dreadful statistics and performances. He's terrible. Gordon Banks got it spot on and England have at least 3 keepers better.

How about saying that England can't go to a world cup and not try to win it? That's a stupid statement to make because if you haven't won a game since 2006 how on earth can you try to win it? It's a stupid statement.

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Post by Diggers on Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:37 am

If you think the past singularly dictates the future, you are an utter plank.

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Post by Diggers on Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:43 am

Also, Englands last game, against probably the best attacking side in the world, clean sheet? Can you appraise the keepers performance please.

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Post by Diggers on Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:54 am

Name the 3 keepers you would have chosen before Hart when Butland was injured. Please explain your choices, Id be really interested in alternatives and solutions,rather than what you always do, which is simply moan.

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Post by Diggers on Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:33 am

I don't watch a lot of rugby league, thought I should watch a World Cup final though. Seriously brutal match, I'm exhausted just watching it.

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Post by beninho on Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:21 pm

Im not joe harts biggest fan, but I dont think butland, pickford, forster, heaton are considerably better then him to make his selection a ridiculous decision and worth the abuse.

I didn't catch the rugby this morning, but ive seen the state of origin games before, and brutal is the word. I think its better to watch then union.

Spurs really struggling at present, maybe a bit of fatigue as they dont have the squad depth. Swansea look awful, another away point for palace and clean sheet, unbeaten in 4 now.

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Post by Diggers on Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:55 pm

I find league a bit repetitive, great to watch a big match as a one off though. A mate of mine played for the Broncos, was a bit embarrassing as they got humped almost every week. He's a physio now.
Roy is doing exactly what Palace got him the do. They are way, way more organised than before his arrival. Thy need Benteke to start scoring, but to be honest I'd be surprised if they go down. They are now 4th favourites to go with the bookies after Swansea, West Ham and Huddersfield. I'd go along with that, would be hilarious if West Ham go.

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Post by super_realist on Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:40 am

Diggers wrote:I don't watch a lot of rugby league, thought I should watch a World Cup final though. Seriously brutal match, I'm exhausted just watching it.

I watched it too, I've no idea how those guys get up after challenges like that as if nothing has happened. If that was a footballer, they'd be out for 6 weeks.

Strange spectacle though, as you say, quite boring and to me at least, not overly skilful. Just brute force mostly.

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Post by super_realist on Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:56 am

Diggers wrote:Also, Englands last game, against probably the best attacking side in the world, clean sheet? Can you appraise the keepers performance please.

Brazil has only THREE shots on target the whole game (England had just ONE shot on target) so that rather tells you where the game was played and how much urgency there was to score.
Hart can't get much credit for three saves which weren't even difficult. Had it been ten shots on target and he'd made some quality saves i'd have said well done to him, but if you watched the game you would have seen how boring it was and how neither team was in full flow. Typical turgid friendly where no one wants to get injured and one in which there's no incentive to score.

A good result against a vastly superior team, but that's all it is. Neither team would look to play that way in a tournament, so what's the point in it and what do you learn from it? That's perhaps why you should put someone like Forster or Pickford, see how he is at commanding the defence, distribution, closing down an rare attack etc. What have you got to lose and why wouldn't you want to give these guys some experience? Imagine you get to knockout stages and Hart has a dandruff injury and Butland, Forster, Pickford come on with virtually no experience of international football. Ok, Butland has six caps and was injured for this, why put Pickford in v Germany and drop him for Brazil if all you're going to do is put Hart in again? What do you learn from not making changes to a team which constantly fails? Why wouldn't you want to mix it up? There's nothing to lose.

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Post by Diggers on Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:06 am

Good reply. To give a response I'd say you are judging Hartt as a club keeper facing shot after shot. He's behind back fours with no confidence, and he himself had lost confidence. I don't think that's true for his England play. (Also the face Brazil had only 3 shots suggests England were not unlucky and Southgate is not inept).
Pickford was great against Germany and is one for the future, but his club for at the time was not great. Forster has been ripped to shreds by Southampton fans this season, he's only found any sort of form in the past few games.
Butland is my man, but my squad would be Pickford and Hart as back up. I think that would be most people's choice. You can argue with whether you agree or not, but I don't see how picking a keeper who kept a clean sheet, at a time when there are very few other options, makes Southgate a plank.

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Post by super_realist on Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:01 am

Diggers, it isn't just his West Ham form that is terrible. He was statistically the worst keeper in Serie A too.
Do you think he'll ever be trusted after his calamities against Scotland and Iceland?

The Brazil game doesn't suggest that Southgate is adept either. Neither team looked like they wanted to win the game. It was turgid football, played at a very lacklustre pace. (Yes, I did watch some of it.) As it was it was a completely pointless exercise. Neither team showed any ambition.

In such pointless matches where neither manager is doing anything, why not try a few fringe players. It doesn't matter if you get beat 6-0. You might just learn something about your squad.

By the way, I hear that a supporter got thrown out of Sunderland for defecating on a seat. Was it you? Certainly gives a new meaning to Stadium of Sh*te.

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Post by Diggers on Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:21 am

Just out of interest, is that statistically based on goals conceded or based on saves per shot? However you look at it, the fact he played and kept a clean sheet hardly makes the whole process a disaster.
The Germany and Brazil games may not suggest Southgate is the worlds best manager, but surely you must accept that the performances can in no way be used to say he is inept. The Germany game was very lively, it was in no way turgid and we definitely competed very well. What did he do in that game, he tried fringe players, so again I'm not sure how you can offer advice for him when he has done exactly that in the previous game.
I'm not saying he is some sort of tactical genius. but as far as I can see he is moving toward a system that suits the squad. It would be massively easy to have a pop at him, until he actually follows in the footsteps of his predecessors (which may well happen) by leading England through a poor campaign then I'm willing to give him a fair crack of the whip because I can see some positive signs of progress.
That is pretty grim, not me, I'm not generally one for public defecation.

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Post by super_realist on Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:44 pm

Not a disaster Diggers, but not exactly learning something which will turn you from tournament deadbeats into QF contenders is it?

England have to make gigantic leaps if they're going to improve, and I don't see how you can possibly do that if you just do the same things you always do, and playing safe in friendlies is part of that. GO out on a limb, find that nugget who might be able to do that. You can't do that by continually picking players who consistently fail to perform at international level. Surely that's a fair comment?
England have fallen so far since 1996, surely you'd welcome taking some risks to improve? Even if it doesn't work, it's not like England can fall much further.

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Post by Diggers on Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:52 pm

So you don't think starting two 20 year olds against the world champions is going out on a limb? Loftus Cheek is surely an example of doing exactly that? Playing Gomez, a 16 game rookie, another 20 year old, against Brazil, is doing exactly that.

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Post by beninho on Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:14 pm

England will make the quaters, they are definate quarter final challengers

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Post by super_realist on Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:26 pm

Based on what Beninho? People said the same in the Euro's and in the World Cup, and they didn't even get out of their group. They sailed through their qualifying groups then, they had some top players who routinely failed again. What's different this time? Wasn't it you who said you've got no expectations of this team and now you're saying they're going to get as far as they have done in 30 years?

You could say they've got an easy group, but it wasn't hard the last two times either and they still stunk the place out.

There were quite a few injuries and call offs which forced Southgate's hand V Germany. I doubt he'd have picked two 20 years old's against the Krauts had he not had to.

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Post by beninho on Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:54 pm

I think we will get out the group pretty comfortably, and get past a team from the poland, japan, senegal, colombia.

I have no expectations about winning it or making the semi, I do believe we hace enough to get past the teams in front of us after seeing the draw.

How do you think england will do? Fancy a little side bet, you ignored the bet I offered on palace staying up.

Krauts??

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Post by Diggers on Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:52 pm

super_realist wrote:Based on what Beninho? People said the same in the Euro's and in the World Cup, and they didn't even get out of their group. They sailed through their qualifying groups then, they had some top players who routinely failed again. What's different this time? Wasn't it you who said you've got no expectations of this team and now you're saying they're going to get as far as they have done in 30 years?

You could say they've got an easy group, but it wasn't hard the last two times either and they still stunk the place out.

There were quite a few injuries and call offs which forced Southgate's hand V Germany. I doubt he'd have picked two 20 years old's against the Krauts had he not had to.

That's not really fair, you say he should do something out there which he clearly did do, then say he had no choice. Nobody predicted that starting line up, absolutely nobody. He could have easily have played 2 defensive midfielders, he could have picked Wilshire. You can't have it both ways, Loftus Cheek was definitely very left field, as was Tammy Abraham (who I don't really rate to be fair but plenty do). Easy pick at centre back was Smalling, a big club player. He says no, I want better ball playing defenders...and that's what he picks, young kids.

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Post by McLaren on Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:30 pm

One issue I see for England is that despite trying to introduce some new players how different will the WC starting line up be from the one that failed against Iceland.

In brackets are the possible changes but will more than two or three of them really happen.

Hart (pickford)
Walker
Cahill (stones)
Smalling (Jones/Maguire)
Rose (Bertrand/Trippier)
Ali
Dier
Rooney (if he keeps it up he might actually be there) or (lingard/loftus cheek/A. Young)
Sturridge (Rashford)
Kane
Sterling


With basically the same players it will come down to whether or not southgate can put a team and system together. It might happen.
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Post by pedro on Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:36 pm

Regardless, super will not be satisfied.

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Post by Diggers on Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:17 pm

McLaren wrote:One issue I see for England is that despite trying to introduce some new players how different will the WC starting line up be from the one that failed against Iceland.

In brackets are the possible changes but will more than two or three of them really happen.

Hart (pickford)
Walker
Cahill (stones)
Smalling (Jones/Maguire)
Rose (Bertrand/Trippier)
Ali
Dier
Rooney (if he keeps it up he might actually be there) or (lingard/loftus cheek/A. Young)
Sturridge (Rashford)
Kane
Sterling


With basically the same players it will come down to whether or not southgate can put a team and system together.  It might happen.

There will 5 or 6 of the same team, but players all having good years hopefully. It's the system and self belief that matters. Super is right, they freeze at tournaments, I just believe that can be changed, one good match, a good start, could change a mindset quickly. We haven't lost a qualifier in 39 matches, that is pretty impressive. Just need to stay hard to beat whilst playing well.
If you want to use history as a gauge, we've played Belgium about 16 times, only lost once. That might just play on their minds.

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Post by super_realist on Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:11 am

Belgium though have done what England have never done and had a revolution in their international football. I don't think Belgium can win a tournament, but they're much more of a heavyweight international team than England are/were.

England don't have any players who play consistently well for their country, you might perhaps make a claim for Kane at best, but the rest of them are a 6/10 at a push (if I were appraising them Wink ), and really given the dire teams they play in qualifying that's all they need to be at.

They don't seem to be able to have that extra level to reach a QF regularly, whether that be they don't have the skill of their better, more skilled clubmates with them, or whether they just don't have the mindset, or whether their talents don't transfer to the different tactics and pace of a tournament.

Hopefully their better players will get out of their cosseted comfort zone and go and play in a league where they learn to adapt, because if they only ever play in the Premiership, they'll never get any better at international football, because they only know how to play one way.

Joe Hart, even though he's not very good and is the most over-rated keeper around at least had the balls (or desperation) to go abroad.

As for things playing on their mind. I'm sure Iceland have been beaten at least 20 times by England, I don't think that played on their minds.

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Post by super_realist on Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:12 am

beninho wrote:I think we will get out the group pretty comfortably, and get past a team from the poland, japan, senegal, colombia.

I have no expectations about winning it or making the semi, I do believe we hace enough to get past the teams in front of us after seeing the draw.

How do you think england will do? Fancy a little side bet, you ignored the bet I offered on palace staying up.

Krauts??

I didn't swerve the Palace bet. I took it up.
Krauts are Germans Ben.

As for England, I think they might finish 2nd in their group, but there will be some nervous moments, after that I couldn't possibly say. If they don't draw Japan, they could be out.

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Post by Diggers on Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:53 am

super_realist wrote:Belgium though have done what England have never done and had a revolution in their international football. I don't think Belgium can win a tournament, but they're much more of a heavyweight international team than England are/were.

England don't have any players who play consistently well for their country, you might perhaps make a claim for Kane at best, but the rest of them are a 6/10 at a push (if I were appraising them Wink ), and really given the dire teams  they play in qualifying that's all they need to be at.

They don't seem to be able to have that extra level to reach a QF regularly, whether that be they don't have the skill of their better, more skilled clubmates with them, or whether they just don't have the mindset, or whether their talents don't transfer to the different tactics and pace of a tournament.

Hopefully their better players will get out of their cosseted comfort zone and go and play in a league where they learn to adapt, because if they only ever play in the Premiership, they'll never get any better at international football, because they only know how to play one way.

Joe Hart, even though he's not very good and is the most over-rated keeper around at least had the balls (or desperation) to go abroad.

As for things playing on their mind. I'm sure Iceland have been beaten at least 20 times by England, I don't think that played on their minds.

Had a revolution? How. They have definitely got a crop of good players, they have had before, not sure why that's a revolution.
You seem to be a lot more forgiving of them, played one big nation at the 2014 World Cup, Argentina, and lost. The one big team they played at the Euros, Italy, they lost to. Went home after losing to Wales.
They really do have some decent players, but it's a generation of players that are under pressure to achieve. I think it should be a cracking match hopefully.


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Post by pedro on Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:27 am

Yes Belgium disappointed at the Euros and probably have a few too many egos. But they should comfortably beat England.

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Post by McLaren on Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:57 am

Aren't the current Belgian team pretty much the definition of under performing? Not helped by a strange managerial appointment.

With a midfield that could include Nainggolan, De Bruyne, Carrasco, Hazard, Dembele (or Fellaini) and defenders that play regularly together they should be one of the favourites.

They just have to hope Lukaku doesn't give the ball away every time it goes near him.
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Post by pedro on Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:42 pm

Yes they underperformed. But they should still beat England.

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Post by beninho on Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:21 pm

Belgium could beat England, I think it will be a draw. They have some very good players. They don't have any real fear factor, you would rather play them than Brazil, France, Spain, Germany, those teams do have the fear factor and would always expect to lose.

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Post by pedro on Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:42 pm

beninho wrote: a) They have some very good players. b) They don't have any real fear factor,
a) Bar one or two, England don't
b) Neither do England
Advantage Belgium

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Post by Diggers on Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:02 pm

pedro wrote:
beninho wrote: a) They have some very good players. b) They don't have any real fear factor,
a) Bar one or two, England don't
b) Neither do England
Advantage Belgium

A. Not true IMO
B. More pressure on their "golden" generation
C. They have a truly pathetic record against us.
Nothing in it.

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Post by super_realist on Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:46 pm

Diggers wrote:
pedro wrote:
beninho wrote: a) They have some very good players. b) They don't have any real fear factor,
a) Bar one or two, England don't
b) Neither do England
Advantage Belgium

A. Not true IMO
B. More pressure on their "golden" generation
C. They have a truly pathetic record against us.
Nothing in it.

Iceland had a truly pathetic record against England and blew them away, so why would any of the current Belgium crop fear a team as tournament rubbish as England?

How do Belgium have pressure on them? They've never done particularly well in any tournament. Certainly no more pressure than is constantly piled on England.
Even when England don't have the pressure, they still fail.

Mac, Martinez might seem a strange manager to you, but he's still got a better record than Southgate has ever had. Martinez had some good seasons at Everton and won the FA Cup with Wigan. What has Southgate ever won? Nothing, and not only nothing, he was a wretched manager at Middlesboro

Certainly advantage Belgium.

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Post by Diggers on Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:20 pm

So we only judge England on the Iceland game. Wales of course are a truly brilliant side. Must be to beat Belgium. Didn't England beat them though? Both sides are in exactly the same boat.
I actually like Martinez, never met an Everton fan who does though.

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Post by super_realist on Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:52 pm

No, But it's the same comparison you are making with Belgium. You're saying Belgium might be worried about the history between the two nations, Why? Were Iceland worried when they've been on the wrong end the 20 times before their last meeting

Wales aren't a brilliant side, but they play very well as a team, like Iceland and Norn Ireland, and punch above their weight, England seem to do the opposite.

Also, if we're talking about being worried about the past, then surely England players are going to be worried about their lamentable tournament history or inability to win a World Cup group game in the last two tournaments.

England might have a good record v Belgium, but they also had that record v Iceland and looked what happened. That's the point. They say there's no easy international games these days, and England show us just how true that at every tournament. Teams have got better while England haven't. I don't even think that's up for debate.

I like Martinez too, likeable guy who has shown he can manage at lots of different levels. Swansea, Everton, Wigan and now Belgium. I like Southgate as a person too, just seems to be trying hard to be studious, inscrutable and a Pep wannabe.

I think his lack of experience could really show at the World Cup.





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Post by Diggers on Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:02 pm

Interesting read (for the Sun) about Martinez. Clearly stated you have to have a dream/vision of winning a trophy, namely the World Cup. Presumably this makes him a plank if you look at their last competitive result and overall record.
He also talks about pressure of expectation, especially from Belgium fans. There you go...
Is actually a great read, as I said I like him a lot amd he talks a lot of sense, and to be honest I would love to see Belgium have a great run next year.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/4629945/belgium-roberto-martinez-world-cup/amp/

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Post by beninho on Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:25 pm

I have nowt against Martinez, but ge was horrendous towards the end of his Everton time, tactically inept with one way of playing. The fans couldn't stand him. He also got wigan relegated interesting article https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/may/12/everton-roberto-martinez-wigan-parallels


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Post by super_realist on Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:32 pm

Yeah he was, but show me a manager who hasn't had a bad time at least one club. No one is saying he's an amazing manager, but he's eminently more qualified for the position than Southgate is.

Diggers, Belgium fans don't expect to win, that would be absurd, that's more stupid bluster like Southgate. They're a tiny nation and tiny nations never win it because they haven't the strength in depth (Yes, Uruguay did, but that was back in the days when there were hardly any teams in it and it hadn't taken off yet). They'll be expecting a good run though, and given their standout players they should be. A much better squad than most teams there, but not good enough to win it. A semi would be a tremendous if not incredible result, but if they come up against Germany or Brazil, you wouldn't fancy them.

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Post by beninho on Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:57 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/world-cup-2018-wallchart-predictor/

Ive got a very predictable germany brazil final. Eng knocked out in quarter like belgium. I went very safe on choices.

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Post by Diggers on Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:01 pm

Not sure you can make a decision on their fans expectations. What are they ranked 5th in the world? I guarantee you the expectations are ramped right up, as you say they have a small nation but also one with a lot of football history. They know full well this is a special group of players who could do something amazing.
I'd argue they have a better chance on paper of winning the World Cup than Leicester had of wining the Premier League. Denmark won the Euros with a much weaker squad. Greece as well. Who would have predicted those results?


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Post by Diggers on Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:43 pm

And to add to expectations their former golden generation (which was a tasty side) reached a European final and a World Cup semi.

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Post by McLaren on Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:52 pm

I got a Portugal Germany final.
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Post by Diggers on Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:03 pm

Portugal is a big shout Mac, I've no idea how they won the Euros really. You never know though. I just hope we get some good football, I'm quite hopeful, if I was to go for a winner right now Id say maybe France, but that's based on the talent fulfilling its potential.

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Post by pedro on Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:25 pm

Portugals Euro win was, well, luck. Scrambled through group stage (3 draws), and the knockout stage was a combination of 2 OT wins and a penalty shootout. Very few goals scored. With such a shallow team as they have I can’t see anything similar happen to them again anytime soon.

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Post by McLaren on Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:05 am

The last few Euro's and WC's have been pretty dull other than Brazil getting humped by germany, I could easily see Portugal grind out a win against a team like Brazil or france again.
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