WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

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WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 30 Oct 2017, 10:40 am

First topic message reminder :

I was reading this story in the Mail on Sunday yesterday, and I thought it would cause a good debate on here, it seems that the WRU want to bring Welsh players back to Wales, and they want to start by bankrolling a deal to bring George North back at the end of the season.

Is this a start where we see more and more players being put into Dragons ?

It was also said that the WRU want to bankroll keeping the more experienced players in Wales as well, with AWJ being mentioned as a lynch pin and an ideal example of how this is done going forward. I for one hope that none of this is pie in the sky, I hope they really do target Welsh players playing abroad and get them back at the regions.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-5027991/WRU-chiefs-set-bankroll-George-North-s-return-Wales.html

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-ready-bankroll-bid-bring-13826967

Also, for those of you who do not like going onto sites:-


  • WRU chiefs are ready to bankroll deal to bring George North back to Wales at the end of the season


  • George North is out of contract with Northampton and is yet to sign a new deal


  • North one of top earners at top level but top brass say they can now afford him


  • Chairman Gareth Davies believes the regions can now bankroll North's services


  • Davies also pushing proposals to reduce the size of the WRU board from 20 to 10


The Lions winger is out of contract with Northampton, who he joined from the Scarlets in 2013, and is yet to sign a new deal.
North is one of the top earners in the Premiership but chairman Gareth Davies believes the regions can now afford his services.
The new 60-cap selection policy makes it easier for the WRU to retain young players – leaving more National Dual Contract funds for Test stars.


‘George North will always be a target,’ Davies told the Mail on Sunday. ‘Now we’re in a better position to get him back. We want little Jonny to be able to go and see his favourite player in Wales.
‘We’ve succeeded in bringing Jonathan Davies and Leigh Halfpenny back. Is it good for the wider game if all the best players are playing in England? I don’t think so but it’s their right to do so.
‘In the past, we’ve used NDC money to keep youngsters who were tempted to move abroad and try to play for Wales. Now we can use it to bring them back or retain more experienced guys.

‘Someone like Alun-Wyn Jones has got to be a prime target to keep in Wales. He is important for the game, his region and the national team. He’ll be a lynchpin in getting the Ospreys back on track.’
Davies is currently pushing proposals to reduce the size of the WRU board from 20 to 10 – with a separate council for the community game – to replace a system which is ‘140 years old’.
‘Look at what’s happening with the FA; Sports bodies are expected to behave in a certain way,’ he said. ‘We’re a £75million business and we should have a modern-day, streamlined structure.
‘You go to district meetings and they’ve been talking about the same things for 20 years. At some meetings now the community game is hardly discussed. It’s like we’ve got 14 forwards and one back.’


Last edited by LordDowlais on Wed 25 Apr 2018, 2:06 pm; edited 14 times in total

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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 2:25 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Can someone remind me what the NWQ limit is for next season? I think we all need to make full use of it, although it seems Scarlets might already be over the limit...

As it stands it’s max of 8, up to 6 capped and a further 2 time serving. But I am lead to believe this may be getting amended in the close season.

The Scarlets will have Werner Kruger (SA capped), Blade Thompson (time serving), Dai Bullbring (time serving, wq autumn I believe), Steve Cummings (time serving), Uzair Cassem (SA capped), Paul Asquith (Aus 7s), Jonny McNicholl (time serving) all confirmed for next season, with Clayton Blommetjies (time serving), and Michael Wells (I believe, time serving) heavily linked too. So if the signings all come off, and the rules don’t change we would be over the limit until Bullbring qualifies.
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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 5:17 pm

8 is good and I don't think it needs to be decreased. I'm still a little unfamiliar with the time-serving rule, it can change in an instant. Pretty crafty though. Michael Wells? Do Scarlets even need another flanker? Lock maybe, but I'm not sure about a flanker.

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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 5:22 pm

Sounding like an Ospreys fan of yesteryear here, but I think it would help if they made allowances based on the number of the welsh squad coming from the region.
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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 5:25 pm

They probably should. I think they should also make allowances for the amount of dross at a region, as Dragons still need around 10 new players.

Well is Aus Sevens capped btw, I'm assuming that still makes him ineligible to represent any other playing nation (I know they were trying to alter that rule for the Olympics).

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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 5:31 pm

Hey SS I was also thinking about what Pivac recently said. I think North might be waiting to see who else qualifies for champions cup rugby which rules out Dragons. Ospreys and Blues both need a winger, it's just hard to see which he'd go for at this point. Let's also bear in mind that Ospreys are without a coach and Blues have signed a nobody with little experience - I don't think we can criticize North too much for the shambles that is the welsh rugby set-up.

Pivac also mentioned that there's more to come with regards to new signings. I'm assuming there aren't any more overseas signings as Scarlets are at the limit, but a few more academy products will come in? Do you know who? WP is building an impressive looking squad with the yearly-available recruits and academy promotions. At this point he is a very good bet to succeed Gatland.

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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 7:03 pm

Mikey, yeah 7s ties someone to their country unfortunately otherwise we may have been able to convince Beirne to wait and become Welsh. I believe we are meant to be bringing on Angus O’Brien and Keiran Hardy (ex academy scrum half, at Jersy now).

I think your right in North, I’d say he is hanging on to see who is playing where, and who is coaching where too. I guess it must be hard to decide on where to go when there’s so much uncertainty about coaches/competitions. I thought it may sway him to join the Scarlets, but truth be told if the Os can get the right type of man as coach, they could well be back to the force they used to be, and should be. So I can’t fault him if that’s why he’s waiting.
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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 7:14 pm

By time serving due you mean Project players, such that they will need 5 years to become eligible for Wales ?
That is for players signed in 2018 only of course, before that 3 years

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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 7:18 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:By time serving due you mean Project players, such that they will need 5 years to become eligible for Wales ?
That is for players signed in 2018 only of course, before that 3 years

Yeah we call them time serving. Isn’t it 5yrs if they arrived after this season?
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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by The Oracle on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 7:28 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:By time serving due you mean Project players, such that they will need 5 years to become eligible for Wales ?
That is for players signed in 2018 only of course, before that 3 years

This is just my opinion and I could be wildy wrong, but I’ve always thought that project players were specifically targeted by the IRFU with the view to them being an Irish national team player in the future (hence the term ‘project’). Whereas in Wales the players are signed to do a job for the club without any real plans for them to eventually becoming Wales international players, probably because there is less involvement by the union in signing players in Wales compared to Ireland. Sort of more of a happy side effect of them coming her to play rather than the original intention of them being signed. So we call them ‘time serving’ but there was probably no plans for them to see out the residency period from day one. Hadleigh Parkes, for example, wasn’t targeted by Wales as someone to fill a centre spot in the national team in the future. It was just a happy coincidence/combination of being in form and having been here long enough so he got capped.

Am I right or miles off?


Last edited by The Oracle on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 7:42 pm

Oracle that is a popular myth - the Project players were there to address shortfalls in the Provinces.
If it was as you say the return has been terrible re those who have become useful internationals
People like Stander and Aki were never intended as being good enough - they have been happy bonuses.
Far more typical were players (looking at Ulster) - Diack, Ludik, Herbst who were signed to address gaps in our squad
The one player where it may they may be some truth in the concept is Payne who was seen as a potential replacement for BOD

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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 7:45 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:By time serving due you mean Project players, such that they will need 5 years to become eligible for Wales ?
That is for players signed in 2018 only of course, before that 3 years

Yeah we call them time serving.  Isn’t it 5yrs if they arrived after this season?  

No the cut off was 1st January this year.
If the contract was signed in 2018 it is 5 years

Interestingly it means the 2017 boys will qualify in 2020
the 2018 boys will qualify in 2023
So no one will qualify in 2021 or 2022, which means they will little to integrate a new players into the International set up for the 2023 WC


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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by Stone Motif on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 7:50 pm

The Oracle wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:By time serving due you mean Project players, such that they will need 5 years to become eligible for Wales ?
That is for players signed in 2018 only of course, before that 3 years

This is just my opinion and I could be wildy wrong, but I’ve always thought that project players were specifically targeted by the IRFU with the view to them being an Irish national team player in the future (hence the term ‘project’). Whereas in Wales the players are signed to do a job for the club without any real plans for them to eventually becoming Wales international players, probably because there is less involvement by the union in signing players in Wales compared to Ireland. Sort of more of a happy side effect of them coming her to play rather than the original intention of them being signed. So we call them ‘time serving’ but there was probably no plans for them to sit out the residency period from day one. Hadleigh Parkes, for example, wasn’t targeted by Wales as someone to fill a centre spot in the national team in the future. It was just a happy coincidence/combination of being in form and having been here long enough so he got capped.

Am I right or miles off?

Of course it's a deliberate policy. It's one only a feckwitted nation like ours wouldn't adopt when faced with a shallow playing pool. Roger Lewis's general sh1ttification of all things not he national team didn't help the quality of the imports either.
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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 8:05 pm

No it wasn't though

Are you telling me Ulster signed Diack, Herbst and Ludik because they were seen as potential internationals
They were signed at times when Ulster were short of backrowers, TH and 15s respectively no thought of the needs of the International requirements.

The number of Projects that have a successful transition to regular internationals is actually very small compared to the overall total

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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by Stone Motif on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 8:18 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:No it wasn't though

Are you telling me Ulster signed Diack, Herbst and Ludik because they were seen as potential internationals
They were signed at times when Ulster were short of backrowers, TH and 15s respectively no thought of the needs of the International requirements.

The number of Projects that have a successful transition to regular internationals is actually very small compared to the overall total

Yes, you're right - you stumbled across CJ Stander, Bundee Aki, and Quinn Roux entirely by accident, like some pot o' gold at the end of a rainbow. As you were.

Signing quality internationals in positions where no home grown players are emerging, strengthens the provinces and therefore also benefits the national team in the linger term. It's not something you should feel bad about, Wales should have done much, much more of this.
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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:39 pm

I don't feel bad about.
I just think you are in error with respect to the driving force behind the recruitments

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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 11:01 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:No it wasn't though

Are you telling me Ulster signed Diack, Herbst and Ludik because they were seen as potential internationals
They were signed at times when Ulster were short of backrowers, TH and 15s respectively no thought of the needs of the International requirements.

The number of Projects that have a successful transition to regular internationals is actually very small compared to the overall total

Yes, you're right - you stumbled across CJ Stander, Bundee Aki, and Quinn Roux entirely by accident, like some pot o' gold at the end of a rainbow. As you were.

Signing quality internationals in positions where no home grown players are emerging, strengthens the provinces and therefore also benefits the national team in the linger term. It's not something you should feel bad about, Wales should have done much, much more of this.

Quinn Roux is a quality international? Laugh

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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 11:08 pm

What is he 5/6th in line in Irish lock hierachy

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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by Stone Motif on Thu 05 Apr 2018, 4:34 am

geoff999rugby wrote:What is he 5/6th in line in Irish lock hierachy

Is this you attempting to backtrack on your claim that the IRFU had no policy of deliberately importing players? Because it's only making you look more thick.

Good enough to win a cap for one of the best international teams in world rugby...
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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 05 Apr 2018, 10:25 am

Stone Motif wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:What is he 5/6th in line in Irish lock hierachy

Is this you attempting to backtrack on your claim that the IRFU had no policy of deliberately importing players? Because it's only making you look more thick.

Good enough to win a cap for one of the best international teams in world rugby...

On dear oh dear that has got to be one of the most ill thought out posts I have read here, especially as it is embellished with an insult that is apt with respect to the poster themselves.

Clearly I am going to have to explain in words of one syllable.
Irish provinces identify players to fill gaps in their own squad.
They have been allowed 4 NIQ and 1 Project player to fill the identified gaps
The NIQ positions are regulated by the IRFU to ensure that they do not lead to a shortage for Ireland in particular positions
The Project players, like any new recruits, have varying degrees of success when they are signed.
Some are abject failures - like Ulsters VdM and before him at LH Murphy
Some are steady, if unspectacular squad men - like Herbst
Some are top provincial players but don't make the International scene - like Ludik
Some get a handful of caps but are not good enough - like Roux, Diack, Strauss
Some prove to be very useful Irish squad players but not in the first XV - like Aki
Just occasionally some prove to be an undiscovered diamond - like CJ Stander

It doesn't matter if you are kicked out on your ear having never played for the Province, like Murphy, or you go on to play 50 odd caps, as Stander may well do;
the ORIGINAL reason for signing the player is Provincial driven.
The fact some go on to play International rugby is irrelevant.
In fact it is to be expected for the simple reason the Provinces are going to try and sign the best player they can given within their financial constraints.
They are not going to think to myself we can only sign players who are never going to be good enough for International rugby.

Sorry to the rest of the Welsh posters here.
Initially I was only trying to clarify a particular point but unfortunately one of your country men decided to reduce it to insults based on ignorance.
I am aware some of my fellow country can be less than perfect also.
Most Welsh, and Irish, posters make a thoughtful contribution.

Sadly we are both cursed by the occasional rude idiot







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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Thu 05 Apr 2018, 12:24 pm

Geoff - I just thought there is an age limit on players who can be classed as Time Serving. I think it is something like 26 for a forward and 24 for a back. This caused some confussion at the time, because Hadleigh Parkes was not classed as a time server, even though he was uncapped.
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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 05 Apr 2018, 12:36 pm

Thanks for that
We tend to only give people over 30 years old 1 year extensions, although there have been some notable exceptions.
Also with the new 5 year rule I understand that these types of contracts will be mostly limited to something like 22 years old or less.

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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by Stone Motif on Thu 05 Apr 2018, 12:53 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:What is he 5/6th in line in Irish lock hierachy

Is this you attempting to backtrack on your claim that the IRFU had no policy of deliberately importing players? Because it's only making you look more thick.

Good enough to win a cap for one of the best international teams in world rugby...

On dear oh dear that has got to be one of the most ill thought out posts I have read here, especially as it is embellished with an insult that is apt with respect to the poster themselves.

Clearly  I am going to have to explain in words of one syllable.
Irish provinces identify players to fill gaps in their own squad.
They have been allowed 4 NIQ and 1 Project player to fill the identified gaps
The NIQ positions are regulated by the IRFU to ensure that they do not lead to a shortage for Ireland in particular positions
The Project players, like any new recruits, have varying degrees of success when they are signed.
Some are abject failures - like Ulsters VdM and before him at LH Murphy
Some are steady, if unspectacular squad men - like Herbst
Some are top provincial players but don't make the International scene - like Ludik
Some get a handful of caps but are not good enough - like Roux, Diack, Strauss
Some prove to be very useful Irish squad players but not in the first XV - like Aki
Just occasionally some prove to be an undiscovered diamond - like CJ Stander

It doesn't matter if you are kicked out on your ear having never played for the Province, like Murphy, or you go on to play 50 odd caps, as Stander may well do;
the ORIGINAL reason for signing the player is Provincial driven.
The fact some go on to play International rugby is irrelevant.
In fact it is to be expected for the simple reason the Provinces are going to try and sign the best player they can given within their financial constraints.
They are not going to think to myself we can only sign players who are never going to be good enough for International rugby.

Sorry to the rest of the Welsh posters here.
Initially I was only trying to clarify a particular point but unfortunately one of your country men decided to reduce it to insults based on ignorance.
I am aware some of my fellow country can be less than perfect also.
Most Welsh, and Irish, posters make a thoughtful contribution.

Sadly we are both cursed by the occasional rude idiot



So the IRFU have had a policy of bringing in project players. I'm glad we've got to the bottom of that.

CJ Stander can only have been a project player, Munster were up to the NIQ limit at the time he was signed.

So yes, you are being a bit thick. Or disingenuous. But I'm going for thick.
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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 05 Apr 2018, 1:28 pm

Where did I say the IRFU haven't brought in Project players ? - straw man.
However they have been, and continue to be brought in to address the needs of Provinces not the National team.
The needs of the Provinces has been the driving force behind player selection.
If they have subsequently done well enough to warrant regular International appearances that has been a bonus.
The vast majority have not been.

Difficult to debate with someone who cannot comprehend a simple fact and whose debating style is to throw out insults rather than
put together a coherent argument.

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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by Stone Motif on Thu 05 Apr 2018, 2:09 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Where did I say the IRFU haven't brought in Project players ? - straw man.
However they have been, and continue to be brought in to address the needs of Provinces not the National team.
The needs of the Provinces has been the driving force behind player selection.
If they have subsequently done well enough to warrant regular International appearances that has been a bonus.
The vast majority have not been.

Difficult to debate with someone who cannot comprehend a simple fact and whose debating style is to throw out insults rather than
put together a coherent argument.

Provinces/International team...potay-to potah-to
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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

Post by LordDowlais Yesterday at 2:04 pm

Dragons sign Aaron Jarvis:-

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/43893991

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Re: WRU want to bring players back to Wales - Dragons sign Wales TH prop from Clermont Auvergne

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