Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

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Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 1:55 am

First topic message reminder :

Oct 31, Tuesday morning, World Rugby plans to announce who is the recommended host country for RWC 2023. The recommendation is contained in a 220 page analysis report conducted by an independent firm of assessors who have pored through every detail of the three bids. Apparently they've looked at everything from travel times, to accommodation, stadia facilities, and how long the queues would be for the loo.

Bookies had Ireland as favourites but their odds have lengthened slightly. Bill Beaumont and Agustin Pichot were given the report last Friday. The full document will be released to media today Oct 31, to maintain transparency and integrity of the bid process.

All the WR unions, except the three bidders, will vote on who should get it on November 15. It's a secret ballot, but the likelihood of a vote going against the recommendation would cause more than a few raised eyebrows. It could still happen though.

There could be a lot of glum faces by midday in either Dublin, or Paris or Cape Town.

*******************************
Nov 15, Wednesday, World Rugby plans to announce who the World Rugby Council of Unions have voted in favour to be host country for RWC 2023.  The various unions can relay on a 220 page analysis report conducted by an independent firm of assessors who pored through every detail of the three bids. And they said that any of the three bidders could host the RWC but based on their scoring, their recommendation was South Africa.

Irelamd didn’t get the RWC.

Snot fair.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 6:05 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 3:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Perhaps the WRU and the SRU and the FIR did not vote for their "muckers" in the Pro14 because they are fed up of getting shafted by them year in year out. Very Happy

I wonder did jealousy play a part?

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Scottrf on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 3:59 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Perhaps the WRU and the SRU and the FIR did not vote for their "muckers" in the Pro14 because they are fed up of getting shafted by them year in year out. Very Happy

I wonder did jealousy play a part?

Yep, Ireland are so great and the bid so wonderful that if a union didn't vote for you it's jealousy.

Jesus...

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 4:07 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Perhaps the WRU and the SRU and the FIR did not vote for their "muckers" in the Pro14 because they are fed up of getting shafted by them year in year out. Very Happy

That's the second time you laughed on this thread... with serious underbelly intent, Lord.

You're good at this. I like your instincts for truth Wink

It woz an assassination for sure. Italy sat in the getaway car. Scotland was the spotter. And without a shadow of a doubt, Wales elected to be the single-lone shooter in the Texas School Book Depository. Smile

Sure, it's a movie a waiting. Jack Nicholson in for Philip Browne.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 4:10 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Perhaps the WRU and the SRU and the FIR did not vote for their "muckers" in the Pro14 because they are fed up of getting shafted by them year in year out. Very Happy

I wonder did jealousy play a part?

Yep, Ireland are so great and the bid so wonderful that if a union didn't vote for you it's jealousy.

Jesus...

em...no, he means simple jealousy that we'd end up hosting  it????

It don't always have to be about us having our head in the clouds and thinking above our station as little people who should know our lowly place better.  South Africa is envious that France have it.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Pete330v2 on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 4:12 pm

"It woz an assassination for sure. Italy sat in the getaway car. Scotland was the spotter. And without a shadow of a doubt, Wales elected to be the single-lone shooter in the Texas School Book Depository."

It was a grassy knoll, this is Wales we're talking about after all.
They like grassy knolls they do!

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 4:14 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Perhaps the WRU and the SRU and the FIR did not vote for their "muckers" in the Pro14 because they are fed up of getting shafted by them year in year out. Very Happy

I wonder did jealousy play a part?

Yep, Ireland are so great and the bid so wonderful that if a union didn't vote for you it's jealousy.

Jesus...

Well we in Ireland are better than the Scots and the Welsh in nearly every way so it does stand to reason.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 4:22 pm

Oh Jesus...here we go for round two.

Better get reading me Convoluted History Book to have some ammo ready.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 4:39 pm

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/11/16/france-unfairly-secure-rugby-world-cup-2023-with-better-superior-bid/

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Guest on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 4:40 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Perhaps the WRU and the SRU and the FIR did not vote for their "muckers" in the Pro14 because they are fed up of getting shafted by them year in year out. Very Happy

Now THIS is a classic WUM! 10/10 LD.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 4:56 pm

Griff wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Perhaps the WRU and the SRU and the FIR did not vote for their "muckers" in the Pro14 because they are fed up of getting shafted by them year in year out. Very Happy

Now THIS is a classic WUM! 10/10 LD.

Very Happy

I caught a few.

To be honest though, I am starting to admire collapse, he is still fighting the good fight, in the face of all this adversity, he is STILL trying to show us how Ireland are getting shafted.

GO ON Collapse, your country needs you. Yahoo

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 4:58 pm

It is hard to believe that some posters are so naïve they actually believe there is a bond between the Lions' nations that extends beyond monetary value.

Every Union has the right to negotiate their own private deals to maximise their income. Wales and Scotland should not be criticised for a lack of solidarity with Ireland, but rather praised for their honesty in looking out for themselves.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 5:05 pm

There's no love between the Irish and Welsh that's for sure. Makes me laugh though, we can admit it but they get all high and mighty whilst wearing their 'Kiss me I'm Irish' t-shirts. Funny blokes.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 5:09 pm

Scottrf wrote:
munkian wrote:The whinging on Twitter is palpable.

Honestly I didn't know what whingers the Irish were until this forum. I thought they were a good laugh, happy go lucky chaps.

Lol thank you. They're constantly whinging about ref's in the Pro14 and then whinge at the Welsh for also whinging about ref's.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 5:09 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:It is hard to believe that some posters are so naïve they actually believe there is a bond between the Lions' nations that extends beyond monetary value.

Every Union has the right to negotiate their own private deals to maximise their income. Wales and Scotland should not be criticised for a lack of solidarity with Ireland, but rather praised for their honesty in looking out for themselves.

ShockedShocked



Crying or Very sad

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Sin é on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 5:10 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:There's no love between the Irish and Welsh that's for sure. Makes me laugh though, we can admit it but they get all high and mighty whilst wearing their 'Kiss me I'm Irish' t-shirts. Funny blokes.

You don't have to love each other - just be aware that there will come a day when someone will need a dig out for something. No man is an island.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 5:11 pm

Ok. This is getting boring now.

We lost. Time to get over it and move on.

The teams have been announced for the weekend - much more interesting.
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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 5:17 pm

munkian wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:When it comes to beer Belgium, England, Germany in that order and by some distance......and I'm Irish !

You can always fine some little gem, in many countries, somewhere but it is what is readily available that countries should be judged

Belgium undisputed #1 for sure.

Any restaurant/cafe there has an extensive beer list of amazing beers.


By England you mean Britain right ? A Welsh brewery from Newport (Tiny Rebel) has won multiple national awards of the past couple of years.

Anyway, Amsterdam is your one for European and American beers with Bristol a close second. I’m sure I’ll change my opinion after spending Christmas in Brussels though..


Yeah and all their stuff is gross too. I'm surprised you didn't mention Brains, it outbeers them all...

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 5:20 pm

England do great beers, it's our lagers that are awful. Belgium rule though.....Czech have some tasty options, do they not have a rugby team?

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 5:25 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:There's no love between the Irish and Welsh that's for sure. Makes me laugh though, we can admit it but they get all high and mighty whilst wearing their 'Kiss me I'm Irish' t-shirts. Funny blokes.

You're the first Welshman I've ever seen admit it. Good man...you've always had class mikey - a real maverick, I like that.

The tension between us is truly razor sharp at times and probably for many obvious rugby centric reasons over the years -
But there has to be more to it though and I don't know what that is... ; but I do think we still get a folk-memory blame of sorts for being the alternative Welsh rugby had to choose when the Professional age came and England seemed to want to go its own way.
I genuinely think Welsh people would still much prefer to be in an Anglo/Welsh League. And I have no quibbles with that - despite the mudslinging between the English and Welsh, they really do love each other. And they miss that, I suppose. But I do feel we get some of the blame emotion thrown our way for the parting.

Am I partially right or all wrong? Headscratch



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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 5:27 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Ok.  This is getting boring now.

We lost. Time to get over it and move on.  
The teams have been announced for the weekend - much more interesting.  

That's for another thread Pot. Go there ..or to the thread that dealt with the last game anyway, ...there are a few of us that have already started talking about the weekend ahead. But this is the WC Bid thread. Wink

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by catchweight on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 5:33 pm

I would have thought the Celtic Nations supporting each other was less about Celtic brotherly love and more about being stronger as a collective in a world where there are bigger and more economically powerful Unions. Sharing the same league and sharing many common interests and challenges, potential for hosting future world cups etc

They have obviously decided that the additional revenues by the commercially more powerful bids is worth more – which they are entitled to of course. But they have much more regular dealings with each other and co-operation and strong relations has its benefits too.

I would have though, and this is just an assumption, that the IRFU felt they would have had the backing of the other home nations. I would be surprised if they bid for the World Cup if they felt they hadn’t as it would have been an extremely uphill battle. Maybe in the past they were led to believe the support would be there? Maybe not. I can see why there would be a grievance if they felt the support was there and had changed at the very end. On the other hand, if they put together a bid with the knowledge that support from the other home nations was lukewarm then it shouldn’t have come as any surprise to them that it failed. It would be interesting to know the discussions that were had behind the scenes.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 5:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:There's no love between the Irish and Welsh that's for sure. Makes me laugh though, we can admit it but they get all high and mighty whilst wearing their 'Kiss me I'm Irish' t-shirts. Funny blokes.

You're the first Welshman I've ever seen admit it.  Good man...you've always had class mikey - a real maverick, I like that.  

The tension between us is truly razor sharp at times and probably for many obvious rugby centric reasons over the years -
But there has to be more to it though and I don't know what that is... ;  but I do think we still get a folk-memory blame of sorts for being the alternative Welsh rugby had to choose when the Professional age came and England seemed to want to go its own way.
I genuinely think Welsh people would still much prefer to be in an Anglo/Welsh League.  And I have no quibbles with that - despite the mudslinging between the English and Welsh, they really do love each other.  And they miss that, I suppose.  But I do feel we get some of the blame emotion thrown our way for the parting.

Am I partially right or all wrong?  Headscratch

Partially right. Irish on the whole are good blokes. A lot of the rugby fans, at least the ones I come across are.... funny blokes, to put it lightly.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Guest on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 6:08 pm

SecretFly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:There's no love between the Irish and Welsh that's for sure. Makes me laugh though, we can admit it but they get all high and mighty whilst wearing their 'Kiss me I'm Irish' t-shirts. Funny blokes.

You're the first Welshman I've ever seen admit it.  Good man...you've always had class mikey - a real maverick, I like that.  

The tension between us is truly razor sharp at times and probably for many obvious rugby centric reasons over the years -
But there has to be more to it though and I don't know what that is... ;  but I do think we still get a folk-memory blame of sorts for being the alternative Welsh rugby had to choose when the Professional age came and England seemed to want to go its own way.
I genuinely think Welsh people would still much prefer to be in an Anglo/Welsh League.  And I have no quibbles with that - despite the mudslinging between the English and Welsh, they really do love each other.  And they miss that, I suppose.  But I do feel we get some of the blame emotion thrown our way for the parting.

Am I partially right or all wrong?  Headscratch



Depends who you speak to. 'The Welsh' are made up of individuals, believe it or not Wink

What would we really like? Me personally, neither of the options proposed (Anglo Welsh or Pro12). In an ideal world we'd have a vibrant pro Welsh league, like we used to have (the league that is, perhaps not the vibrant bit!). Like the French and English have. That's what THIS Welshman would like. Not going to happen though. I've got no preference in playing the English over the 'Celts'. They're all the same to me. Commercially the English option makes more sense to the Welsh (but not the English) as the M4 puts us in close proximity to a lot of the teams, which opens up more possibility for travelling support (which I like). But one over the other? No thanks.


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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 6:08 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Ok.  This is getting boring now.

We lost. Time to get over it and move on.  
The teams have been announced for the weekend - much more interesting.  

That's for another thread Pot.  Go there  ..or to the thread that dealt with the last game anyway, ...there are a few of us that have already started talking about the weekend ahead.  But this is the WC Bid thread. Wink

Hmmm.  I had forgotten that.  Hang on....

https://www.instagram.com/p/BbjWCLvDqFV/?t=1&cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email&iid=6b158e8a971642059cac7f6c58e27d35&uid=767100230869348352&nid=244+272699400
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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 6:37 pm

Griff wrote:

Depends who you speak to. 'The Welsh' are made up of individuals, believe it or not Wink

What would we really like? Me personally, neither of the options proposed (Anglo Welsh or Pro12). In an ideal world we'd have a vibrant pro Welsh league, like we used to have (the league that is, perhaps not the vibrant bit!). Like the French and English have. That's what THIS Welshman would like. Not going to happen though. I've got no preference in playing the English over the 'Celts'. They're all the same to me. Commercially the English option makes more sense to the Welsh (but not the English) as the M4 puts us in close proximity to a lot of the teams, which opens up more possibility for travelling support (which I like). But one over the other? No thanks.

Yeah, but, no but, yeah but...sure, it weren't me that said there is no love lost between the Irish and Welsh. Cool   Of course it's a generalisation but you can't ask every Irishman if he hates every single Welshman and vice versa...it's an overall mood that has permeated the Pro12 and Magners etc since virtual inception.  And mikey is man enough to use the only language that pervading mood describes.

Anyway, in an ideal world I'd also like an Ireland only stand-alone League (like the French and English have) - and I've often tried to think about how that might happen given the Provincial IRFU owned system we have here.  I've often half suggested dividing the Provinces in two and creating a tight and hard bitten 8 team League.  I think a high intensity sharp league like that would give us so much more opportunity for more Irish players to push through to a higher level and then feed into International.
But zee money is always zee problem for the minds that try to organise rugby.  I do think though that new things will have to be tried sooner or later in the next decade or two which might impact on Pro14 for Wales and Ireland. Academies are filling and draining ever year and there are not enough teams to be able to catch the really good ones before they give up trying and go get a real job.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Guest on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 7:20 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Griff wrote:

Depends who you speak to. 'The Welsh' are made up of individuals, believe it or not Wink

What would we really like? Me personally, neither of the options proposed (Anglo Welsh or Pro12). In an ideal world we'd have a vibrant pro Welsh league, like we used to have (the league that is, perhaps not the vibrant bit!). Like the French and English have. That's what THIS Welshman would like. Not going to happen though. I've got no preference in playing the English over the 'Celts'. They're all the same to me. Commercially the English option makes more sense to the Welsh (but not the English) as the M4 puts us in close proximity to a lot of the teams, which opens up more possibility for travelling support (which I like). But one over the other? No thanks.

Yeah, but, no but, yeah but...sure, it weren't me that said there is no love lost between the Irish and Welsh. Cool   Of course it's a generalisation but you can't ask every Irishman if he hates every single Welshman and vice versa...it's an overall mood that has permeated the Pro12 and Magners etc since virtual inception.  And mikey is man enough to use the only language that pervading mood describes.

Anyway, in an ideal world I'd also like an Ireland only stand-alone League (like the French and English have) - and I've often tried to think about how that might happen given the Provincial IRFU owned system we have here.  I've often half suggested dividing the Provinces in two and creating a tight and hard bitten 8 team League.  I think a high intensity sharp league like that would give us so much more opportunity for more Irish players to push through to a higher level and then feed into International.
But zee money is always zee problem for the minds that try to organise rugby.  I do think though that new things will have to be tried sooner or later in the next decade or two which might impact on Pro14 for Wales and Ireland. Academies are filling and draining ever year and there are not enough teams to be able to catch the really good ones before they give up trying and go get a real job.

I have to say, in my opinion this vitoriol is only an online phenomenon. I don't think I've had a cross word with any other nationality about rugby outside of these online fora and chat board thingies. It's competely a product of the inter web. I just don't see it in real life.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 8:15 pm

Oh I don't know Griff...I think I'd first have to headbutt you if I met you in real life before offering to buy you a pint.... as I order a glass of bloody sparkling water for myself! (as I don't drink too much at all)  So f**K Guinness too btw! Wink

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Engine#4 on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 8:34 pm

Let us have our moan. The Kiwis whined about antipodean spirit after the Aussies didn't support their bid. We are just learning from the best. The best who also didn't vote for us after we flip flopped for them. Barstewards.

On a serious note France ticks all the boxes.  The only way Ireland was going to win was with a sentimental vote and there's clearly no place for that.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Gwlad on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 8:48 pm

Look I just think this is a club that the Lesser Celtic nations aren't ready for.

A Home Nations RWC would be nice one day, so that Scots and Irish can feel part of that club.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 9:01 pm

There’s only one Celtic nation I know of.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 9:03 pm

Engine#4 wrote:Let us have our moan. The Kiwis whined about antipodean spirit after the Aussies didn't support their bid. We are just learning from the best. The best who also didn't vote for us after we flip flopped for them. Barstewards.

On a serious note France ticks all the boxes.  The only way Ireland was going to win was with a sentimental vote and there's clearly no place for that.

Yeah, the Kiwis said they would and then they didn't Laugh What a bunch we Rugby Union boys are.  And we laughed at the FIFA crowd.

So what's really the use in having long run-ins to these things at all?  There is no use in genuinely spending a penny (IRFU spent I think roughly what Scottish rugby hope to gain) because it doesn't matter what any of them (or us) say two years ago or five months ago.  You can't genuinely tot up anything on your fingers.  

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Gwlad on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 9:10 pm

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:There’s only one Celtic nation I know of.

Hardly surprised by that disclosure

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 9:18 pm

Gwlad wrote:
Geen sport voor watjes wrote:There’s only one Celtic nation I know of.

Hardly surprised by that disclosure

You’ll understand some day, well maybe not in whatever parallel universe you live in.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by catchweight on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 11:49 pm

It will be interesting to see what process World Rugby will adopt for future bids. The overall degree to which money talked was pretty clear. No room for sentiment (Ireland) and an independent reccommnedation by world rugby (South Africa) also swatted aside.

The tier 1 Southern Hemisphere nations stuck together but nearly all the tier 2 Nations preferred the cash. Something for World Rugby to ponder. Unless they want the hosting to go to the highest bidder they may need to get more creative. France has been flexing their economic mu9unless France or Englan bid again)scles increasingly both at club level and on the world stage. I think the squeeze is going to increase on other unions, especially the smaller ones to have to compete with that kind of economic power.


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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Cyril on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 11:55 pm

I think the only way people will be happy is with the following:

England host the World Cup
England go out in the pool stage
NZ win the whole thing

Something for everyone?

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 7:05 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Geen sport voor watjes wrote:There’s only one Celtic nation I know of.

Hardly surprised by that disclosure

You’ll understand some day, well maybe not in whatever parallel universe you live in.

You both know there is no such thing as a Celtic nation/race don't you ?

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 8:36 am

I feel a bout of wikifacts coming on.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 10:33 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Geen sport voor watjes wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Geen sport voor watjes wrote:There’s only one Celtic nation I know of.

Hardly surprised by that disclosure

You’ll understand some day, well maybe not in whatever parallel universe you live in.

You both know there is no such thing as a Celtic nation/race don't you ?

...anymore than there is a white 'race' or a black 'race'.  We've all come from the same stock.... some of us just got pale I think to better handle the production of Vitamin D in less Sunny Climates.  Pure evolution and climate working on all of us.

So ............... everything gets back to cultcha in the end rather than race.  
What culture are you?  What makes you a little unique in the world?  What traditions are that bit different, either in language, art or history?..... What are the things that make you proud of your place on the planet?  That's a People.  

By that reckoning, I'm Irish and I'm a Celt.  I ain't wishy-washy, all-sizes-fit-all 'European'.  I'm not British.  I'm not an new-age Inclusivistian either  Whistle  (the kind of people that claim we should just all be citizens of a big happy planet and burn all our unique cultures into a fudge of modern grey nothingness for the sake of world peace and saving whales + of course endless addictive box-set watching!!  Cool )  

No, I'm Irish and I'm a Celt.  That's my identity, Lord.  



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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by munkian on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 10:36 am

If you are Irish you could well be more Viking than Celt.
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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 11:03 am

munkian wrote:If you are Irish you could well be more Viking than Celt.

The Vikings came but they didn't exactly breed with every bloody Irish wench they met.  It ain't like TV and Movies.    They were still outnumbered by quite a distance in terms of the population that was resident there before them.  They didn't get everywhere on their Friday night piss ups  Cool  

Anyway, I wouldn't mind that a bit  ..like I said we're all the same in terms of Blood.... but culturally, I'm Irish and a Celt.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by munkian on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 11:11 am

SecretFly wrote:
munkian wrote:If you are Irish you could well be more Viking than Celt.

The Vikings came but they didn't exactly breed with every bloody Irish wench they met.  It ain't like TV and Movies.    They were still outnumbered by quite a distance in terms of the population that was resident there before them.  They didn't get everywhere on their Friday night piss ups  Cool  

Anyway, I wouldn't mind that a bit  ..like I said we're all the same in terms of Blood.... but culturally, I'm Irish and a Celt.

Depends where you are from in Ireland. Vikings founded Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Limerick, and Cork and settled there.

Centuries on you've also got Normans (French Vikings) and Spanish genes thrown into the mix.

How do you mean 'celt' though ? They were originally thought to be from Iberia and each tribe was culturally different and fought each other - there was no common bond between them - hence the Romans being able to divide and conquer them fairly easily.

Technically, the Welsh, Scottish and Irish not getting along is very 'celtic' itself.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by carpet baboon on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 11:29 am

Come for the rugby, stay for the history

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 11:36 am

munkian wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
munkian wrote:If you are Irish you could well be more Viking than Celt.

The Vikings came but they didn't exactly breed with every bloody Irish wench they met.  It ain't like TV and Movies.    They were still outnumbered by quite a distance in terms of the population that was resident there before them.  They didn't get everywhere on their Friday night piss ups  Cool  

Anyway, I wouldn't mind that a bit  ..like I said we're all the same in terms of Blood.... but culturally, I'm Irish and a Celt.

Depends where you are from in Ireland. Vikings founded Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Limerick, and Cork and settled there.  

Centuries on you've  also got Normans (French Vikings) and Spanish genes thrown into the mix.

How do you mean 'celt' though ? They were originally thought to be from Iberia and each tribe was culturally different and fought each other - there was no common bond between them - hence the Romans being able to divide and conquer them fairly easily.

Technically, the Welsh, Scottish and Irish not getting along is very 'celtic' itself.


Yeah, we got most of the same guys you got breeding with us... but you got a few extra...the Romans?  They got your way...and a bunch of eejits from across that sea bit.  They too were very Vikingy in nature during olde, olde times and raided, raped and pillaged all down along the Western seaboard of what is now GB...so........................ the Irish..............

Anyway... nobody gets along.  The other stereotype that some 'races' get above others.  Who did the Anglo Saxons get along with?  The native British Celtic tribes?  The Romans?  

The Spanish?  Who are the Spanish?  Why do you class Spanish and Vikings as things that are titled relatively pure compared to Celts, who seem to be the proverbial mongrels with a bit of everyone in them? Laugh

The Spanish aren't fully Spanish, they're mongrels.  The Danes aren't fully Danish, they're mongrels.  Afterall, they have a lot of Celt in them as you outline Wink   We're all mongrels.  But I'm still Irish and a Celt ..Geddih? Wink

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by munkian on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 11:50 am

I'm still not getting your definition of 'celtic' though.

Irish is in the same gaelic grouping as Scottish and Manx

Welsh is brittonic as is Cornwall and Brittany.


Its pretty much like saying 'european' - which you've said you aren't.
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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by lostinwales on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 12:07 pm

One thing the Vikings did do is take women home from the British Isles. Obviously this leads to a lot of vikings from subsequent generations not being quite as genetically different as we might expect.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 12:54 pm

munkian wrote:I'm still not getting your definition of 'celtic' though.

Irish is in the same gaelic grouping as Scottish and Manx

Welsh is brittonic as is Cornwall and Brittany.


Its pretty much like saying 'european' - which you've said you aren't.

?

Who are the French?  Who are the Spanish?  What makes you so ready to only acknowledge identity (named and declared) down a political, governmental, administrative alley yet so dismissive of Identity declared through a real and historic and identifiable grouping based on cultural history rather than administrative?

Why are you Welsh?  Why aren't you just British?  You're British.  But you also see yourself as Welsh.  You don't see the English of Kent as Welsh.  Why?  What's the difference?  Simply that you have a devolved Parliament called a Welsh Assembly?  That's the difference?  Of course not.

I've said we're all the same blood, across the planet... but it's cultural identities that form identity and a sense of having a section of the world that is yours.  You may have head scratching moments about it but that's how humanity operates.
In our recorded history, the dominant culture influence has been largely 'Celtic' on this Island - That is not to say that we haven't been Dominated by other cultures for periods.  That's not even to say that the Celtic tribes themselves that came here originally didn't themselves dominate the older peoples that were here even before them.  But the dominant continuous cultural identity on this island has been one identified as Celtic by historians and as just US by us.  We are who we are. The Dominant cultural identity on your island is Anglo - from Anglo tribes, from an Anglo sense of common culture.
And whilst Vikings formed towns and cities and established headlands, they didn't always hang around and they did allow 'natives' in to service the towns and cities.  Celts didn't just disappear from these areas when Vikings established their towns.  Also, Vikings that did stay often intermarried - of course - and they adapted to the culture around them, not always the other way round and obviously not always the other way round as Irish people still have the sense of being much more Celtic than Dane.  

Culture is a concept of what you are based on your history, art, literature and handed down family memory/instinct.  You are what you are.  I am what I am.

Now is that me saying we (you and I) share a common bond?  Not at all.  You have your sense of what being 'Celt' is or not at all as the case may be.  That's your prerogative.  People decide their own cultural heritage and how to view it, you don't get directed into a heritage group by learned historians - that's imperialism and that's been tried the world over and always fails.  The British were told they were 'Romans' for a period and then decided that they weren't and rebelled.  Your version of your identity is entirely different to mine, even though we often use the same word 'Celt'.  That's why I usually drop the word into inverted commas when using it.  It's a different thought for everyone.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by munkian on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 1:07 pm

Ok, I get the gist of what you are saying but to me, as a history fan and one time scholar, 'Celt' is a catch all word encasing many different cultures and identities just as European, British and (going back a bit) barbarian are.

And as an aside, Anglo is latin for English, Anglia meaning England. Angles were a Germanic tribe, Saxony being what is now part of Germany - Anglo-Saxon.

The cultural identity of the original British was Brittonic, not Anglo.

Welsh is just a Saxon word for stranger - anyone outside of the Saxon territories would be 'Welsh'.

I'd prefer Wales to be called Cymru to be honest.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by SecretFly on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 1:50 pm

Anyway, why is nobody still fuming and moaning about the World Cup bid???

This thread has gone to the dogs and has now become an official disgrace.

Just two days of mudslinging and 'Kiss-Me-I'm-Irish' fury and the Irish are back to thinking about Fiji?  We're letting ourselves down badly here.  I'm off - the embarrassment is too much to bear.

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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by munkian on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 2:30 pm

Fair play so
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Re: Wales and Scotland are big meanies - Discuss

Post by munkian on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 3:40 pm

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/11/16/france-unfairly-secure-rugby-world-cup-2023-with-better-superior-bid/
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