F1 2021 and beyond...

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F1 2021 and beyond...

Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 2:17 pm

Liberty appear to be making progress on the financial restructuring of the sport and it could see the top teams lose up to £155m in prize money *cough*Ferrari*cough* with the other top teams also losing out substantially.

However this is because they intend to impose a spend cap - thought to be set at £122m - which is closer to what the smaller teams spend each season and significantly less than the £275m Mercedes spent last season.

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/liberty-media-collision-course-f1-075800934.html

Ross Brawn has also revealed he is considering scrapping practice sessions, in an effort to further reduce costs, as well as freeing up time in the calendar to expand the season to 25 races.

Needless to say Ferrari are collectively spitting their dummies out over this. Still this is one thing I am 100% behind. The rewards system needs to be merit based, with no special handouts, based on historical participation or "perceived worth" to the sport.

While a spending cap in theory is a good idea to encourage greater involvement and reduce the gap between the top teams and everyone else, I am worried it will lead to a lack of innovation. Plus I wonder how this will be enforced on a practical level. Didn't they already try something like this before, only to then admit it was impossible to determine exactly what the teams were spending?

The new engine regulations should be getting released pretty soon. Will update this as and when I find anything (or feel free to post a reply if you beat me to it).
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Re: F1 2021 and beyond...

Post by Fernando on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 2:19 pm

Ferrari & Mercedes will threaten to walk away. FIA will curl up in a ball when they realize that'll happen zero will change bar the calendar.

I do think just give them a 3 hour practice on Saturday morning would be better then Fridays.

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Re: F1 2021 and beyond...

Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 2:33 pm

But its not the FIA that is behind this...its Liberty. Wink I also think they should call Ferrari's bluff if they do threaten to walk away (they're the only ones making any noise at the moment).

What are they gonna do if Liberty go ahead with the changes? Go to Le Mans, IndyCars or Touring Cars? They could, but none of those series have the same prestige or exposure that F1 gives. I think as long as its financially viable they will stay with F1. Think there would be huge pressure from the tifosi to continue as well.

Also forgot to mention that viewing-wise they intend to begin a subscription-based streaming service, which will enable people to watch online, without paying for TV subscription services.

Of course this doesn't apply to the UK, as Sky's contract means they will remain the exclusive F1 broadcasters fromm 2019 onwards. Rolling Eyes


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Re: F1 2021 and beyond...

Post by Fernando on Tue 31 Oct 2017, 2:35 pm

If they change the engines i wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes walked due to amount of money they've put in. Ferrari could do what they want they bring a sh*t load of $$$ to F1. If Liberty push too hard i wouldn't be surprised to see Ferrari/Mercedes possibly even RB start their own series in 2022-24 etc.

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Re: F1 2021 and beyond...

Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 9:56 am

Fernando wrote:If they change the engines i wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes walked due to amount of money they've put in. Ferrari could do what they want they bring a sh*t load of $$$ to F1. If Liberty push too hard i wouldn't be surprised to see Ferrari/Mercedes possibly even RB start their own series in 2022-24 etc.


Have you any idea how much money it costs to set up a racing series from scratch? I don't, but I bet it would be far more than they stand to lose.


First they'd need to attract a bunch of other entrants. I doubt there would be much interest in a 3-team series.
Then they'd need to sort out venues (and pay the owners).
They'd also need to get permission from the FIA.
They'd have to attract sponsors...and many of the biggest global companies already invest heavily in other series.
They'd have to negotiate broadcast deals.

Plus they would be in competition with F1. Unless they did things a lot differently, why would fans follow it? Basically it would be a massive gamble. A huge investment with no guarantee of making any kind profit.

Also I highly doubt Mercedes would walk unless they have a drastic downturn in fortunes. Even with the loss of revenue, having those driver & constructors' titles, plus a global star like Lewis Hamilton to promote your brand has to be worth a lot.

Red Bull are a massive brand and can afford to take the hit. Though they might decide to withdraw any remaining support for Toro Rosso.

Williams & McLaren receive around £18m each as "historically important" teams.
Mercedes & Red Bull get around £50m each in bonuses.
Ferrari stand to lose the most with their bonuses being worth an estimated £155m.

Also don't forget these losses would (or should) be mitigated by the spend cap. For example Mercedes spent around £275m last season. The spend cap being considered is around £122m. Even if you upped it to £150m thats still a big reduction in costs that would more than cancel out the reduction in prize money.
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Re: F1 2021 and beyond...

Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 10:07 am

The new engine formula for 2021 has been announced.

In a nutshell:

- 1.6 litre V6 (single) turbo
- RPM increased to 15,000
- removal of MGU-H (harvests energy from the turbo but mutes engine noise)
- more powerful MGU-K (harvests energy from rear axle)
- standardised battery & control electronics

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41820129

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Re: F1 2021 and beyond...

Post by nathan on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 5:44 pm

So just as engine performance amongst teams are starting to standardise they are planning to change it again which means 1 of the teams will come out with a great design (like Mercedes did this time around) and be dominant.

The Ferrari engine is pretty close to catching up and now their planning to mix it all up again.

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Re: F1 2021 and beyond...

Post by Just John on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 5:58 pm

nathan wrote:So just as engine performance amongst teams are starting to standardise they are planning to change it again which means 1 of the teams will come out with a great design (like Mercedes did this time around) and be dominant.

The Ferrari engine is pretty close to catching up and now their planning to mix it all up again.

That’s F1, hence why it’s pretty much defined by era’s of domination.

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Re: F1 2021 and beyond...

Post by Fernando on Wed 01 Nov 2017, 7:35 pm

World champions Mercedes have cast doubt on the new engine regulations proposed for Formula 1 in 2021.

Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff says he has "strong scepticism" about whether the ideas are the right way forward.

An outline of potential rules has been published by governing body the FIA and commercial rights holder the F1 Group.

"This is their vision and proposal and we haven't accepted it. The flaw of the concept is that it's a completely new engine and new investment," said Wolff.

The FIA and F1 have proposed keeping the current engine architecture of a 1.6-litre turbo V6 hybrid but removing one of the two hybrid elements, increasing the power of the other, introducing driver-controlled hybrid deployment and standardising some parts.

Their aim is to reduce costs, improve the quality of the racing and the sound created by the engines, and enable independent companies to come into F1 and compete with the car manufacturers as engine suppliers.

But Wolff said he was "surprised" that the FIA had published so much detail on the new engine when the manufacturers had been told in a meeting on the same day that the plans were "a proposal of a vision for 2021" that would be subject to further discussion and refinement at F1's various rule-making entities.

He added: "It portrays it in a way of this is how we're going forward and none of the current OEMs (car manufacturers in F1) was particularly impressed."

He said the proposals as published would mean "developing a new engine concept that will trigger immense costs" for the car manufacturers in F1 - Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda - "just for the sake of having a new concept".


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Re: F1 2021 and beyond...

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 04 Nov 2017, 9:18 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Fernando wrote:If they change the engines i wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes walked due to amount of money they've put in. Ferrari could do what they want they bring a sh*t load of $$$ to F1. If Liberty push too hard i wouldn't be surprised to see Ferrari/Mercedes possibly even RB start their own series in 2022-24 etc.


Have you any idea how much money it costs to set up a racing series from scratch? I don't, but I bet it would be far more than they stand to lose.


First they'd need to attract a bunch of other entrants. I doubt there would be much interest in a 3-team series.
Then they'd need to sort out venues (and pay the owners).
They'd also need to get permission from the FIA.
They'd have to attract sponsors...and many of the biggest global companies already invest heavily in other series.
They'd have to negotiate broadcast deals.

Plus they would be in competition with F1. Unless they did things a lot differently, why would fans follow it? Basically it would be a massive gamble. A huge investment with no guarantee of making any kind profit.

Also I highly doubt Mercedes would walk unless they have a drastic downturn in fortunes. Even with the loss of revenue, having those driver & constructors' titles, plus a global star like Lewis Hamilton to promote your brand has to be worth a lot.

Red Bull are a massive brand and can afford to take the hit. Though they might decide to withdraw any remaining support for Toro Rosso.

Williams & McLaren receive around £18m each as "historically important" teams.
Mercedes & Red Bull get around £50m each in bonuses.
Ferrari stand to lose the most with their bonuses being worth an estimated £155m.

Also don't forget these losses would (or should) be mitigated by the spend cap. For example Mercedes spent around £275m last season. The spend cap being considered is around £122m. Even if you upped it to £150m thats still a big reduction in costs that would more than cancel out the reduction in prize money.

Absolutely, spot on summary. thumbsup

The big teams will bite their gums and gnash their teeth and perhaps trying to influence a change of plan from Liberty Media and Ross Brawn but if they don't get it they'll knuckle down and get on with it.
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Re: F1 2021 and beyond...

Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 11:21 am

Fernando wrote:World champions Mercedes have cast doubt on the new engine regulations proposed for Formula 1 in 2021.

Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff says he has "strong scepticism" about whether the ideas are the right way forward.

An outline of potential rules has been published by governing body the FIA and commercial rights holder the F1 Group.

"This is their vision and proposal and we haven't accepted it. The flaw of the concept is that it's a completely new engine and new investment," said Wolff.

The FIA and F1 have proposed keeping the current engine architecture of a 1.6-litre turbo V6 hybrid but removing one of the two hybrid elements, increasing the power of the other, introducing driver-controlled hybrid deployment and standardising some parts.

Their aim is to reduce costs, improve the quality of the racing and the sound created by the engines, and enable independent companies to come into F1 and compete with the car manufacturers as engine suppliers.

But Wolff said he was "surprised" that the FIA had published so much detail on the new engine when the manufacturers had been told in a meeting on the same day that the plans were "a proposal of a vision for 2021" that would be subject to further discussion and refinement at F1's various rule-making entities.

He added: "It portrays it in a way of this is how we're going forward and none of the current OEMs (car manufacturers in F1) was particularly impressed."

He said the proposals as published would mean "developing a new engine concept that will trigger immense costs" for the car manufacturers in F1 - Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda - "just for the sake of having a new concept".



Yeah - I'd take that with a pinch of salt.

While technically the new regs would require a complete engine redesign, they would still be working with the same engine architecture, for the most part, and would simply have to adjust the tolerances, dimensions & component placement. Its not as though they are being asked to go back to V8 / V12 normally aspirated engines, for example, or some weird configuration like an in-line 5-cylinder design.

All the new proposals require is for them to lose the MGU-H, beef up the MGU-K and rev 3000rpm higher. The control electronics would be standardised, so they wouldn't have to do any R&D there.

They're just making a fuss because it means some extra expense and R&D work. In the context of F1 expenditure I doubt its going to be THAT huge.

Sure the engines will be less efficient without the MGU-H, but IMO F1 was going up a blind alley there. The vast majority of the sport's carbon footprint comes from the testing & building of the cars, plus transporting the teams and their gear all over the world. The fuel used on race day is pretty insignificant in comparison.


The new regs have also piqued the interest of a couple of former big names...Ilmor and Cosworth...


Independent engine companies Ilmor and Cosworth have backed Formula 1's proposed new rules as a potential entry route for new competitors.

The pair say it is almost impossible for a new company to compete with the current engine suppliers under the existing rules.

Cosworth managing director Bruce Wood said: "The current regulation is beyond any new entrant, technically and for the commercial investment it requires.

"The new proposal makes it possible for an independent or existing car company."

Cosworth was the last independent engine manufacturer to take part in F1, before pulling out after 2013.

Steve Miller, managing director of Ilmor which ran the Mercedes F1 engine programme until the early 2000s, said the new rules proposed last week by governing body the FIA and the F1 Group from 2021 "open the scope to a much broader range of manufacturers" by making it cheaper to design and build an F1 engine.

However, both companies say they would need investment from an external backer before they could contemplate making an F1 engine, even under the proposed new rules.



Ilmor and Cosworth, in exclusive interviews with BBC Sport, say:

  - Changing and simplifying the engine rules is effectively the only way F1 could attract new engine companies

  - Even under the new rules proposal, small companies such as them would still need a partnership with a car company to design and build an F1 engine
   
  - Removing the MGU-H is key if F1 wants new entrants

   It will always be difficult for smaller companies to compete on a level playing field with giants such as Mercedes and Ferrari, whatever the rules

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41886707
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Re: F1 2021 and beyond...

Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 15 Nov 2017, 2:11 pm

In an update to the previous post, Ross Brawn has said F1 can't continue with the current engines, if it is to remain a viable sport in the long term.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41986411

While they are technological masterpieces and brilliant in terms of improving fuel efficiency, they are not good racing engines...

- too expensive
- too complex
- too unreliable
- too quiet

He reiterated the point that the cost of the current powerplants makes F1 prohibitively expensive to many potential entrants and also pointed out that the frequent need to replace components and the resulting grid penalties are making F1 "a farce".

He is however open-minded about possible solutions to achieve the FIA's objectives of making engines more affordable and louder, while maintaining relevance to road cars and achieving good fuel consumption.


Brawn says he was "a little bit shocked at the response we've had", because the manufacturers had all been involved in a series of meetings that led to the proposal.

"Reflecting on it, maybe we could have presented it differently," Brawn said. "But I didn't anticipate the response to be as strong as it was.

"We've had another meeting since then and I've made that comment. If that is the the thing people are most upset about, then I apologise. But let's not lose sight of what we are trying to do. If they were uncomfortable with the way it was presented, it wasn't intended that way."

He says he is open-minded about potential solutions "as long as those principles that we've set out are achieved".

He added: "If a manufacturer can demonstrate that there is a better way of doing it than what has been proposed - i.e. it is cheaper, it is more appealing to the fans, it is something that a new supplier could engage with; any of those factors - then why not?

"We are not wedded to specific solutions. We think with the expertise that we've got and the work we've done, these are the solutions that can work.

"If somebody suggests another solution that they think will achieve the same objective, we are not going to say no."
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