Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Page 1 of 4 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 2:07 pm

Guinness Series 2017 - Ireland v South Africa
Aviva Stadium, Dublin,  
Sat 11 Nov 2017, 17:30
Ref: Ben O’Keefe (NZ)
Touch: Wayne Barnes and Ian Davies

Irelands toughest November series test match. A win is critical as it is more than likely the last time Ireland will face SA prior to a potential 1/4 final show down in Japan.

Who will win and other chat?

15. Rob Kearney (fans choice)
14. Andrew Conway
13. Robbie Henshaw
12. Bundee Aki
11. Jacob Stockdale
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray
1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best (captain)
3. Tadhg Furlong
4.  Iain Henderson
5. Devin Toner
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Sean O’Brien
8. CJ Stander

South Africa

15 Andries Coetzee, 14 Dillyn Leyds, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Courtnall Skosan, 10 Elton Jantjies, 9 Ross Cronje, 8 Francois Louw, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6, Siya Kolisi, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth (captain), 3 Coenie Oosthuizen 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi , 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Wilco Louw, 19 Franco Mostert, 20 Uzair Cassiem, 21 Rudy Paige, 22 Handre Pollard, 23 Francois Venter


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 3:41 pm; edited 2 times in total

Collapse2005

Posts : 239
Join date : 2017-08-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by theslosty on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 2:15 pm

Disagree that a win for Ireland is 'critical'. In the grand scheme of things, this Autumn series is relatively unimportant given the RWC seedings have been done and dusted - we're less than two years away from Japan 2019 and as such I'm more interested in the development of our younger players and seeing some more expansive rugby.
So performances take priority over results this November for me - I won't be satisfied by ugly wins. Having said that, 3 good performances from Ireland should bring victories in all 3 games.
avatar
theslosty

Posts : 796
Join date : 2012-05-01
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 2:22 pm

I'm not interested in development of young players at all. It is definitely time now to consolidate the talent we have. Experience wins world cups.

Collapse2005

Posts : 239
Join date : 2017-08-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by cascough on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 2:24 pm

theslosty wrote:Disagree that a win for Ireland is 'critical'. In the grand scheme of things, this Autumn series is relatively unimportant given the RWC seedings have been done and dusted - we're less than two years away from Japan 2019 and as such I'm more interested in the development of our younger players and seeing some more expansive rugby.
So performances take priority over results this November for me - I won't be satisfied by ugly wins. Having said that, 3 good performances from Ireland should bring victories in all 3 games.

Is that because you think that is the key to RWC victory, or just because you prefer to watch that style?

cascough

Posts : 734
Join date : 2016-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by theslosty on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 2:27 pm

Consolidate the talent we have? Surely you'd want the likes of James Ryan, Leavy, Conan, Carbery, Stockdale etc to get some international gametime? Experience is important yes but you want most of your squad in their prime years - thats not going to apply to Best, Heaslip, Rob K and others by 2019.
avatar
theslosty

Posts : 796
Join date : 2012-05-01
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by theslosty on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 2:33 pm

cascough wrote:
theslosty wrote:Disagree that a win for Ireland is 'critical'. In the grand scheme of things, this Autumn series is relatively unimportant given the RWC seedings have been done and dusted - we're less than two years away from Japan 2019 and as such I'm more interested in the development of our younger players and seeing some more expansive rugby.
So performances take priority over results this November for me - I won't be satisfied by ugly wins. Having said that, 3 good performances from Ireland should bring victories in all 3 games.

Is that because you think that is the key to RWC victory, or just because you prefer to watch that style?
Well, both. I'm not going to pretend I get awfully excited watching Ireland over the past couple of years, even when we win I am rarely leaping out of my seat.

But more importantly the last RWC showed that playing narrow 10-man rugby is probably not going to get you very far. Looking at some of Ireland's more recent matches we dominate possession and territory in nearly every game but our lack of cutting edge leads to depressing defeats such as the 22-9 scoreline vs Wales this year.
avatar
theslosty

Posts : 796
Join date : 2012-05-01
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 2:50 pm

theslosty wrote:Consolidate the talent we have? Surely you'd want the likes of James Ryan, Leavy, Conan, Carbery, Stockdale etc to get some international gametime? Experience is important yes but you want most of your squad in their prime years - thats not going to apply to Best, Heaslip, Rob K and others by 2019.

Best, Heaslip (if he recovers), Rob K and a few others will be in he WC squad in 2019. You don't invest so much in players just to drop them before the WC.

Yes fair enough there are young guys that deserve a chance, good list. The top priority though is having a good WC and a trust Schmidt to get us there or bust.

Collapse2005

Posts : 239
Join date : 2017-08-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 3:01 pm

I am a little wary of SA I must say. They did improve in the rugby championship with the exception of one hammering they were pretty good. Also its the first time in a long time that I can recall a visiting SA coach being so complementary of Ireland and seemingly taking the test very seriously. Ominously they actually seem organised, time will tell if they will be as naive as they often can be.

"Our mindset is that it’s not the end of year tour – this tour is about making sure we improve as a group and keep on growing as a team, while also staying on course with our 2019 plan,"

"This is an important tour for us and our standard of play has to be at the level of our last match against New Zealand in Cape Town."

"They are really a top-class side with an experienced coaching team and quality players. There is no doubt we have to be at our best on Saturday,"

Generally SA coached say something really stupid like no Irish players would make our squad etc. and then get dominated. Seems to be a different approach this time.

Traditionally Ireland don't play well in their opening fixture in Nov too.

Collapse2005

Posts : 239
Join date : 2017-08-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by theslosty on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 3:13 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
theslosty wrote:Consolidate the talent we have? Surely you'd want the likes of James Ryan, Leavy, Conan, Carbery, Stockdale etc to get some international gametime? Experience is important yes but you want most of your squad in their prime years - thats not going to apply to Best, Heaslip, Rob K and others by 2019.
Best, Heaslip (if he recovers), Rob K and a few others will be in he WC squad in 2019. You don't invest so much in players just to drop them before the WC.

Yes fair enough there are young guys that deserve a chance, good list. The top priority though is having a good WC and a trust Schmidt to get us there or bust.
I mean you're probably right in that Joe will select that trio, personally I wouldn't have either Heaslip or Rob in Japan - I believe we have better alternatives. I'd even be thinking of moving Best on for Niall Scannell at some stage. We are still two years out, bear in mind Schmidt only had 12 months to bed in Henshaw and Payne before RWC 2015.
avatar
theslosty

Posts : 796
Join date : 2012-05-01
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 4:32 pm

I think there is a very good chance Heaslip will retire. He is down to the last roll of the dice with his back injury. Would be a huge shame as he would be a big asset at the next WC.

Collapse2005

Posts : 239
Join date : 2017-08-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by rodders on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 4:45 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:I am a little wary of SA I must say.

Me too, I think SA could pull of an upset here.
avatar
rodders

Posts : 23967
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 36

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by marty2086 on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 4:51 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:I'm not interested in development of young players at all. It is definitely time now to consolidate the talent we have. Experience wins world cups.

Yes and young players need to gain experience, Ireland have all too often relied on a core group of players and then been caught short especially in RWCs when those players are injured or underperforming. Ireland need the depth and competition.

marty2086

Posts : 8204
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 5:07 pm

You hear that all the time but IMO it is a myth. Schmidt has capped above the average new caps across the top nations post 2015 RWC. We have a stronger squad that we have ever had under Schmidt. There is a limit to how many young players you can cap.

NZ statistically had a more experienced squad than Ireland at the last WC. I think Ireland were particularly unlucky with injuries and the SOB ban. NZ managed to keep all key players injury free throughout the tournament and yet they struggled in their own WC in 2011 as their injuries piled up.

Collapse2005

Posts : 239
Join date : 2017-08-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by theslosty on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 5:14 pm

Feel that statistic is misleading, Schmidt has capped a lot of players vs Tier 2 sides but far fewer have made it into his first choice 23. Tommy Bowe was picked for some of last year's 6N matches, we would have been far better off exposing one of the many young wings we have in the country.
avatar
theslosty

Posts : 796
Join date : 2012-05-01
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Engine#4 on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 8:58 pm

Would like to see Stockdale start this with Aki and Henshaw at centre

Engine#4

Posts : 446
Join date : 2013-09-27

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 07 Nov 2017, 9:24 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:You hear that all the time but IMO it is a myth. Schmidt has capped above the average new caps across the top nations post 2015 RWC. We have a stronger squad that we have ever had under Schmidt. There is a limit to how many young players you can cap.

NZ statistically had a more experienced squad than Ireland at the last WC. I think Ireland were particularly unlucky with injuries and the SOB ban. NZ managed to keep all key players injury free throughout the tournament and yet they struggled in their own WC in 2011 as their injuries piled up.

I've discussed this before on the forum and we went through the new caps over the past few seasons. Schmidt has given out a lot of new caps, which is why a lot of fringe players for the provinces have one or two caps. However, when it actually comes to the competitive games or tournaments, they are nowhere to be seen, unless injuries force Schmidt's hand. Is that really bringing through the next generation? Schmidt always goes with the safe option, even when they are inferior to other options.

Either way, selecting experience for the sake of experience is as stupid as selecting youth for the sake of youth. I want Schmidt to pick the best squad, including backs who can actually create and score tries. Ireland haven't won a World Cup regardless of how experienced the squad has been and a lot of the injuries accumulated by Irish players can also be attributed to the extremely attritional game that Ireland play. They win some big games by clinging onto a narrow lead, with the players throwing their bodies on the line. Then the players look shattered as the tour/competition continues. Happens all the time with Ireland. Very inconsistent.

At the end of the day, Japan won a game like that in the World Cup against South Africa. Italy did the same. They won't win a world cup and neither will we.

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11290
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 25
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by marty2086 on Wed 08 Nov 2017, 10:21 am

Collapse2005 wrote:You hear that all the time but IMO it is a myth. Schmidt has capped above the average new caps across the top nations post 2015 RWC. We have a stronger squad that we have ever had under Schmidt. There is a limit to how many young players you can cap.

NZ statistically had a more experienced squad than Ireland at the last WC. I think Ireland were particularly unlucky with injuries and the SOB ban. NZ managed to keep all key players injury free throughout the tournament and yet they struggled in their own WC in 2011 as their injuries piled up.

Take a look at the squad

Bundee Aki 0 Caps
Adam Byrne 0 Caps
Joey Carbery 4 Caps, 2 as a replacement v NZ and SA and 2 starting v USA and Japan
Andrew Conway 3 Caps, 1 as replacement against Eng, 2 starts v Japan
Chris Farrell 0 Caps
Dave Kearney 16 Caps, 13 stars and 3 as a replacement
Ian Keatley 5 Caps, 3 starts(Canada and USA 2009, Italy 2015) 2 as a replacement(Georgia 2014, Italy 2017)
Kieran Marmion 16 Caps, 4 starts (Canada 2016, England, USA, Japan 2017) 12 as replacement
Stuart McCloskey 1 Cap, England 2016
Luke McGrath 4 Cap, 1 start v Japan 2017, 3 as replacement(Canada 2016, England and USA 2017)
Jacob Stockdale 2 starts, USA and Japan 2017
Darren Sweetnam 0 Caps
Jack Conan 4 Caps, 4 starts(Scotland 2015, USA and Japanx2 2017)
Ultan Dillane 10 Caps, 1 starts (Canada 2016), 9 as replacement (2016,England, Italy, Scotland, SAx2, NZ and Aus, 2017, Scotland and Italy)
Rob Herring 1 Cap, (2014, Argentina and in the back row too)
Dave Kilcoyne 20 Caps, 4 starts (USA 2013, Argentina and Georgia 2014, Scotland 2015)
Dan Leavy 4 Caps, 1 start (Japan 2017), 3 as replacement(Canada 2016, USA and Eng 2017)
Tommy O'Donnell 12 Caps, 6 starts (Canada 2013, Georgia 2014, Italy and Eng 2015, France and Scotland 2016)
Andrew Porter 2 Caps, 2 as a replacement (USA and Japan 2017)
Rhys Ruddock 16 Caps, 7 starts (Argentina 2014, SA and Aus 2014, SA 2016, USA and Japanx2 2017)
James Ryan 2 Caps, 2 as a replacement (USA and Japan 2017)
John Ryan 9 Caps, 3 starts (USA and Japanx2 2017)
James Tracey 4 Caps, 1 start(Japan 2017), 3 as a replacement(Canada 2016, USA and Japan 2017)
Kieran Treadwell 2 Caps, 1 start and 1 as a replacement(Japan 2017)

That's 137 caps across 24 players, 56 of those are starts, 27 of those are against tier 1 nations and 57 caps come as replacements against Tier 1 nations and that includes a handful of 1 minute appearances

Is that enough experience?

marty2086

Posts : 8204
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 08 Nov 2017, 10:29 am

You have to make a judgement calls:
You don't win WC's playing safe with a player like Dave Kearney when you have a player like Jacob Stockdale available.
With Jackson AWOL we simply have to give game time to an alternative 10 - currently a injury to Sexton from chaos
Heaslip may never play again - we need someone other than CJ getting game time at 8
Someone must be given game time as a Lock - other than Henderson and Toner who else has significant experience

geoff999rugby

Posts : 2978
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 08 Nov 2017, 11:16 am

geoff999rugby wrote:You have to make a judgement calls:
You don't win WC's playing safe with a player like Dave Kearney when you have a player like Jacob Stockdale available.
With Jackson AWOL we simply have to give game time to an alternative 10 - currently a injury to Sexton from chaos
Heaslip may never play again - we need someone other than CJ getting game time at 8
Someone must be given game time as a Lock - other than Henderson and Toner who else has significant experience

Its pretty obvious why the Kearney brothers were picked. SAs back three are very weak under the high ball and have been in super rugby and the rugby championship. Sexton and Murray will be employed to launch bombs on Saturday and the Kearney brothers will hoover them up all day long.

You play to your strengths and a game plan rather than what individual you think is best. Dave may not get picked anyway however, any time he has he has played well for Ireland.

Our OH situation is a mess I agree. Madigan is AWOL, PJ is unavailable, Keatley hot and cold and JJ not living up to the hype. Maybe Carbery to get game time?


Collapse2005

Posts : 239
Join date : 2017-08-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Wed 08 Nov 2017, 11:41 am

Carbery is a jockey.... at least he was in the B&W days as far as I remember.

SecretFly

Posts : 26162
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 08 Nov 2017, 12:12 pm

Collapse2005 wrote: . Dave may not get picked anyway however, any time he has he has played well for Ireland.


He has played safe which is a different matter.

A winger needs to be a threat to the opposition - Dave Kearney is not a threat.
To win a WC you need outside backs who scare the opposition, who create something out of nothing - at this level Kearney cant do that.

geoff999rugby

Posts : 2978
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Wed 08 Nov 2017, 12:19 pm

SecretFly wrote:Carbery is a jockey.... at least he was in the B&W days as far as I remember.

I was wondering what wall you had been hiding on, Fly! How are things?

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11290
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 25
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Wed 08 Nov 2017, 12:24 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Carbery is a jockey.... at least he was in the B&W days as far as I remember.

I was wondering what wall you had been hiding on, Fly! How are things?

I keep a low profile in Summer as you well know Rory. That old Flyspray smells schidt! Wink

Might be back a little more for International window. I hear there is a new lad from Clonmel on the team - Bunny O'Aki or something. I'm out of the loop rugby-wise so we'll see how the lad from Tipperary goes.

SecretFly

Posts : 26162
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 1:58 pm

Ireland (v South Africa)
15. Rob Kearney
14. Andrew Conway
13. Robbie Henshaw
12. Bundee Aki
11. Jacob Stockdale
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray
1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best (captain)
3. Tadhg Furlong
4.  Iain Henderson
5. Devin Toner
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Sean O’Brien
8. CJ Stander

Replacements:
16. Rob Herring
17. Dave Kilcoyne
18. John Ryan
19. James Ryan
20. Rhys Ruddock
21. Kieran Marmion
22. Joey Carbery
23. Darren Sweetnam

Actually not too shabby. Henshaw at 13, thank goodness. No Dave. Very Happy

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11290
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 25
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by marty2086 on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 1:59 pm

I was shocked Herring made the squad and now he's made the 23 Shocked

He's been distinctly average at best for the last few years

marty2086

Posts : 8204
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 1:59 pm

No Jack McGrath in the 23? Why?

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11290
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 25
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 2:01 pm

marty2086 wrote:I was shocked Herring made the squad and now he's made the 23 Shocked

He's been distinctly average at best for the last few years

Really can't quite grasp how Cronin was left at home. Would have been the obvious choice for the bench, I thought, with Scannell out injured.

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11290
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 25
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 2:15 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
15. Rob Kearney
14. Andrew Conway
13. Robbie Henshaw
12. Bundee Aki
11. Jacob Stockdale
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray
1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best (captain)
3. Tadhg Furlong
4.  Iain Henderson
5. Devin Toner
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Sean O’Brien
8. CJ Stander


Pretty hard edged side..................... on paper.  There's a lot of proving to be done if they can all cook nicely according to their individual merits.  With O'Brien, AKi, Stander and Healy lined up, there should be a lot of Welsh rugby on display Cool .  Hopefully some rarely seen evasive manoeuvres will be seen as well in the mix.  But overall, that's the kind of side that will have nowhere to hide if they don't get a job done.

SecretFly

Posts : 26162
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 2:16 pm

Thought conway was suspended?

Collapse2005

Posts : 239
Join date : 2017-08-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 2:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
15. Rob Kearney
14. Andrew Conway
13. Robbie Henshaw
12. Bundee Aki
11. Jacob Stockdale
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray
1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best (captain)
3. Tadhg Furlong
4.  Iain Henderson
5. Devin Toner
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Sean O’Brien
8. CJ Stander


Pretty hard edged side..................... on paper.  There's a lot of proving to be done if they can all cook nicely according to their individual merits.  With O'Brien, AKi, Stander and Healy lined up, there should be a lot of Welsh rugby on display Cool .  Hopefully some rarely seen evasive manoeuvres will be seen as well in the mix.  But overall, that's the kind of side that will have nowhere to hide if they don't get a job done.

Welsh rugby? Even they have abandoned the unit at 12 for a more skilled option. But good to see you back

carpet baboon

Posts : 1421
Join date : 2014-05-08
Location : Midlands

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 2:27 pm

carpet baboon wrote:


Welsh rugby? Even they have abandoned the unit at 12 for a more skilled option. But good to see you back

Well "Welsh" rugby may be done and dusted and Gats may have moved on...but it's still Legendary enough to make cameo appearances in my comments Wink

Like I say, carpet, despite our laughs at the expense of the Welsh over the years, we've kinda liked a little too much of the collision stuff ourselves, and I hope despite us having a nice selection of collision junkies there, we might be tempted to swing it loose.

SecretFly

Posts : 26162
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 2:32 pm

SecretFly wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:


Welsh rugby? Even they have abandoned the unit at 12 for a more skilled option. But good to see you back

Well "Welsh" rugby may be done and dusted and Gats may have moved on...but it's still Legendary enough to make cameo appearances in my comments Wink

Like I say, carpet, despite our laughs at the expense of the Welsh over the years, we've kinda liked a little too much of the collision stuff ourselves, and I hope despite us having a nice selection of collision junkies there, we might be tempted to swing it loose.

Me to fly, me too.
I'm hoping with henshaw at 13 and Stockdale and Conway on the wings we might look to move it a bit more

carpet baboon

Posts : 1421
Join date : 2014-05-08
Location : Midlands

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 2:54 pm

I'm not sure the Springboks will be able to cope with Sexton's newest work of magic. The loop is nothing compared to this:


Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11290
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 25
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Sin é on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 3:06 pm

Impressed that Darren Sweetnam has made the bench (bearing in mind he didn't make the summer tour).
avatar
Sin é

Posts : 13145
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 3:43 pm

South Africa have kept faith in Janjies over Pollard.

Bruno to captain the Boks as expected.

Collapse2005

Posts : 239
Join date : 2017-08-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 4:16 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I'm not sure the Springboks will be able to cope with Sexton's newest work of magic. The loop is nothing compared to this:


You see?

Never doubt Schmidt, Rory. He's always known Sexton was capable of that. I think they were keeping it under wraps until the next World Cup. The Kearney Brothers (and Sister) can do it upside down.....

SecretFly

Posts : 26162
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by theslosty on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 4:37 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:No Jack McGrath in the 23? Why?
Is there any suggestion he's injured?
avatar
theslosty

Posts : 796
Join date : 2012-05-01
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 5:02 pm

He is injured as is Earls

geoff999rugby

Posts : 2978
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 10 Nov 2017, 9:12 am

Good interview with Dion O’Cuinneagain:

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/dion-ocuinneagain-chats-to-sport24-20171110

He too thinks it is ominous how respectful the Boks are being this time round. Its not what we are used to.

Collapse2005

Posts : 239
Join date : 2017-08-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Fri 10 Nov 2017, 9:52 am

So we're the All Blacks of Europe according to Coetzee (The All Blacks themselves always taunted the Welsh with that line right before games against the two sides).
Nevertheless, Joe should have quickly thrown the compliment back down Coetzee's channel and reminded him that SA are the All Blacks of Africa.... or would that have been too dicey a comment on the Politically Correct front?

SecretFly

Posts : 26162
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri 10 Nov 2017, 9:59 am

Morning lads (and lasses if there are any!).

Got a question to the Irish brethren - in recent years I think that your wingers have been the weak link in your team with not many truly international class options to choose from. Bowe has been the one outstanding player of the generation but he hasn't been at his best for a few years now. Zebo has had some good games but I don't really rate him as a top international, and his form hasn't been great for a while. Other than that there have been some decent wingers but not real game breakers that could have taken Ireland to the next level. You've done pretty well for yourselves despite that to be fair!

Indeed I've thought in recent years if you combined the Ireland backline with Scotland's top wingers like Seymour and Maitland you'd have a lethal outfit. Even at fullback Kearney has his great games over the years but is getting on a bit now, and isn't a game breaker like Hogg and Williams etc.

So the question is - are Stockdale and Conway the future for Irish wing options and will they provide the extra spark that has been missing over the years? If not, who will?

RDW_Scotland
Admin
Admin

Posts : 21934
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 30
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by marty2086 on Fri 10 Nov 2017, 10:05 am

Stockdale can be a world class player and is already making a huge difference for Ulster and forming a great partnership with Piutau and seems to be learning from him.

Conway not so much, he's 26 and a good player and can cause problems but he's getting close to his peak and maybe Munster fans will disagree but will probably be at 15 for them next season with Zebo going

marty2086

Posts : 8204
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 31
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Fri 10 Nov 2017, 10:26 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Morning lads (and lasses if there are any!).

Got a question to the Irish brethren - in recent years I think that your wingers have been the weak link in your team with not many truly international class options to choose from. Bowe has been the one outstanding player of the generation but he hasn't been at his best for a few years now.  Zebo has had some good games but I don't really rate him as a top international, and his form hasn't been great for a while. Other than that there have been some decent wingers but not real game breakers that could have taken Ireland to the next level. You've done pretty well for yourselves despite that to be fair!

Indeed I've thought in recent years if you combined the Ireland backline with Scotland's top wingers like Seymour and Maitland you'd have a lethal outfit. Even at fullback Kearney has his great games over the years but is getting on a bit now, and isn't a game breaker like Hogg and Williams etc.

So the question is - are Stockdale and Conway the future for Irish wing options and will they provide the extra spark that has been missing over the years? If not, who will?

Depends too on how you play - PHILLosophy as it were.  

Has our philosophy been on the right path for the calibre of International sides we now face?  Well all you have to do is look at Joe Schmidt.  He came in on a wave of enthusiasm based on some magical and scintillating stuff offered up by once Kings of European 'Club' Rugby, Leinster.  Power, Pace, Invention, breathless energy (especially towards the end of a game when other teams might have been flagging) but also that unknowable rhythm.... one game they'd win slogging it out to the end, another game they'd have four tries in the bag before half time.  They mixed it all up from game to game and kept opposition on their toes in the video analysis rooms.  Schmidt's Leinster could play it anyway, but mostly they were slick, deceptive and punishing.
So, most of us were glad to see the end of the Kidney years because we thought he had been holding back a much more delicious blueprint that Ireland could play to - and Joe was the man.

What did we get?  We got a man who quickly began to say he couldn't do it the same way as at Leinster because the dynamic of International was different.  But he did create a blueprint that slowly dragged us back up the ranking table and made us a tough team to beat.  For that blueprint, I suppose he felt he needed certain players over others.... and workrate when not in possession became the quality all players in an Irish shirt had to possess or there was no choosing by Joe (Zebo a famous example of the policy).  It doesn't matter how you word it but by Nature, spunky wings with lots of va va va voom tend to be less workhorse-like and tend to instinctively wait for their big moments.

So you might say we don't have the players in the positions you mention or you might just say Schmidt and his team up until now have been operating on a blueprint that required workhorse sensibilities from all players (super-duper wings included).  
I actually think the more important positions for constructing the kind of momentum you speak about is not the wing positions themselves but that 9 and 10, 12 and 13 area.  That's the area from where the rhythm to release wings come from.  If it doesn't have the right rhythm then wings can't really do too much without enough space or without a ball.

SecretFly

Posts : 26162
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Fri 10 Nov 2017, 10:28 am

..but we have witnessed end to end high-jinx offloading and super-turbo run-outs from Irish players when they have had a mind and opportunity.  So it's there.... it just ain't been emphasised enough.

SecretFly

Posts : 26162
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Fri 10 Nov 2017, 10:49 am

Schmidt has revolutionised modern wing-play. Overlaps and try scoring are just fancy tools of the bourgeoisie. The victory belongs to the working winger, whose ruck resourcefulness earns the triumph for his country.

Rory_Gallagher

Posts : 11290
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 25
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Fri 10 Nov 2017, 10:53 am

SecretFly wrote:..but we have witnessed end to end high-jinx offloading and super-turbo run-outs from Irish players when they have had a mind and opportunity.  So it's there.... it just ain't been emphasised enough.

I'd agree with most of this fly except for the super-turbo.  Pace is one thing that we've really missed over the years. Hickie and Geoghegan being the few standouts.  We've had wings that fetch a great high ball (Horgan et al) and take sublime lines (Bowe, Trimble, Earls and others) and most of our back 3 players in recent years can make a 15-20 yard break at test level.  But I've never felt that if there was an overlap on the half way line that the winger was scoring under the posts (inevitably the winger would be making 15-20 yards and the recycled/offloaded ball would result in the 10 yard finish).  I'd love it if the likes of the TOH, Byrne, Stockdale, Sweetnam, Niyi, Larmour might bring that pace to the Test side over the next 5 years.

For this game at the weekend, the Boks are too nice in the build up. They're waiting in the long grass and going to pounce on Saturday. Scrum pressure on Healy coughing up a couple of penalties, puts strain on Best to ensure the lineout which ends up out of sync (killing any attacking kick to the corner penalties we take on) and SA grind us down up front and surprise us with some exciting backline play.  SA by 3-7 points, unfortunately. (hope I'm wrong)

thebandwagonsociety

Posts : 2265
Join date : 2011-06-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Fri 10 Nov 2017, 11:22 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
SecretFly wrote:..but we have witnessed end to end high-jinx offloading and super-turbo run-outs from Irish players when they have had a mind and opportunity.  So it's there.... it just ain't been emphasised enough.

I'd agree with most of this fly except for the super-turbo.  Pace is one thing that we've really missed over the years. Hickie and Geoghegan being the few standouts.  .....I'd love it if the likes of the TOH, Byrne, Stockdale, Sweetnam, Niyi, Larmour might bring that pace to the Test side over the next 5 years.


Oh we've lacked the turbo boost players for sure, band. But I don't think we've been playing the gameplans to put electricity into the legs of the more limited guys we have had. We haven't been getting them into positions to give them the enthusiasm to try (keyed-up adrenalin has much to offer on those increments of speed needed)
- and if there are opportunities that seem perfect to us (and we end up screaming to the TV or from the stands "Out on the left! Out on the left, you f**kers!!!" - the ball generally went down centre again, into the contact, ready to be recycled back to Murray to battle forward again on forward muscle.

Safety over chance. That can kill pace too. Psychology is a big factor in the zoom stakes.

SecretFly

Posts : 26162
Join date : 2011-12-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Fri 10 Nov 2017, 10:31 pm

Nobody seems to be getting Coetzees subtle dig regarding whether we are the abs of Europe. Certainly we are a sanzar mushup. So in relation to tomorrow’s game I only have the following to say.

John Muldoon
Sean Reidy
Jack Conan
Jack o’donoghue

McCloskey
Scannell
Marshall
Reid
Even that youngfella in Connacht whose name escapes me is worth a mention

In the not to distant past we would have been lucky to have A.N Other fit for a game but now we have options and yet now we are throwing caps at people. When Brian Smith was picked it was a sad day but this is not much different.

Geen sport voor watjes

Posts : 342
Join date : 2015-11-13

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 10 Nov 2017, 11:51 pm

Dont remember you complaining when Stander was selected. Bit of a hypocrite really arent you?

Collapse2005

Posts : 239
Join date : 2017-08-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by George Carlin on Sat 11 Nov 2017, 1:00 pm

Ireland just need a win to maintain the ship in the right direction. 

Then you can all stop moaning and just enjoy the autumn series.
Run
avatar
George Carlin
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 13905
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : United Arab Emirates

Back to top Go down

Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 4 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum