Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

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Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 7 Nov - 14:07

First topic message reminder :

Guinness Series 2017 - Ireland v South Africa
Aviva Stadium, Dublin,  
Sat 11 Nov 2017, 17:30
Ref: Ben O’Keefe (NZ)
Touch: Wayne Barnes and Ian Davies

Irelands toughest November series test match. A win is critical as it is more than likely the last time Ireland will face SA prior to a potential 1/4 final show down in Japan.

Who will win and other chat?

15. Rob Kearney (fans choice)
14. Andrew Conway
13. Robbie Henshaw
12. Bundee Aki
11. Jacob Stockdale
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray
1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best (captain)
3. Tadhg Furlong
4.  Iain Henderson
5. Devin Toner
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Sean O’Brien
8. CJ Stander

South Africa

15 Andries Coetzee, 14 Dillyn Leyds, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Courtnall Skosan, 10 Elton Jantjies, 9 Ross Cronje, 8 Francois Louw, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6, Siya Kolisi, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth (captain), 3 Coenie Oosthuizen 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi , 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Wilco Louw, 19 Franco Mostert, 20 Uzair Cassiem, 21 Rudy Paige, 22 Handre Pollard, 23 Francois Venter


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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by The Great Aukster on Sat 11 Nov - 23:02

It was important that Kearney was in the team with so much inexperience around him. He was often seem cajoling and encouraging the young caps. The blend of youth and experience worked well so right now Kearney is in pole for the RWC. Aside from Kearney missing the pass (something Hendo did twice) he got turned over on the ground once, so hardly worthy of criticism.

It is hilarious that some posters think Ireland can be something other than a well organised hard working team! Schmidt is trying to adopt the AB principle of being the best they can be at those parts of the game they can control. Low error count and strict discipline are paramount to success - mavericks are high risk and too often low reward. Forcing opposition mistakes is obviously a much better strategy that hoping for a moment of magic to create the same panic. It's also repeatable and not dependent on personnel - something that Ireland always struggle with in depth.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by catchweight on Sat 11 Nov - 23:05

Schmidt could have played himself at full back and Ireland would have won that game.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Sat 11 Nov - 23:15

The Great Aukster wrote:

It is hilarious that some posters think Ireland can be something other than a well organised hard working team! Schmidt is trying to adopt the AB principle of being the best they can be at those parts of the game they can control. Low error count and strict discipline are paramount to success - mavericks are high risk and too often low reward. Forcing opposition mistakes is obviously a much better strategy that hoping for a moment of magic to create the same panic. It's also repeatable and not dependent on personnel - something that Ireland always struggle with in depth.

And it didn't work during the last WC when we were blown out of the water by Argentina.  So a good gameplan is a good gameplan, even if it's boring... but it's gotta prove itself in the highest competitions against sides that have been together and doing their own super-duper training in the lead-ins.  We need extra angles for the big contests over short periods (6N, WC), we can include extra angles.... but the caution caution approach I'm sure won't change at this point.  Oh well, I like the cameo injections when they come.... I learned not to be greedy laughing

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sat 11 Nov - 23:23

The Great Aukster wrote:It was important that Kearney was in the team with so much inexperience around him. He was often seem cajoling and encouraging the young caps. The blend of youth and experience worked well so right now Kearney is in pole for the RWC. Aside from Kearney missing the pass (something Hendo did twice) he got turned over on the ground once, so hardly worthy of criticism.

It is hilarious that some posters think Ireland can be something other than a well organised hard working team! Schmidt is trying to adopt the AB principle of being the best they can be at those parts of the game they can control. Low error count and strict discipline are paramount to success - mavericks are high risk and too often low reward. Forcing opposition mistakes is obviously a much better strategy that hoping for a moment of magic to create the same panic. It's also repeatable and not dependent on personnel - something that Ireland always struggle with in depth.

Except the bolded part is demonstrably false - when it falls apart it really falls apart. See Argentina RWC 2015. It is very dependent on key personnel and is not repeatable, given the intensity of our attritional style of play. Which is why we get our odd big win and then lose games we should really win. And what happens when the strategy of forcing the opposition to commit errors fails? Quite simply, other well drilled teams put us to bed. Anyway, Ireland can't take too much credit for forcing the opposition to make errors tonight. That is one awful, awful SA side. Italy have beaten them this year, for goodness sake.

Lastly, those individual moments of magic are essential to the game. It is hilarious that some posters think otherwise. I'm glad that Stockdale took his opportunity with both hands and shown what a bit of space, time and pace can bring to the game of rugby.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sat 11 Nov - 23:28

Besides, it is a moment of magic that can completely dismantle us. We normally work tirelessly to get ahead and then cling onto the narrowest of leads. All it takes (and has taken, in the past) is an error of our own, or a good line-break or an offload that leads to a try and we lose. That doesn't seem particularly safe to me.

I must say, tonight was one of the few Ireland games for years where I felt entirely relaxed. We were never under that much pressure because SA were so poor. You just knew they would drop the ball or throw a pass to nobody because they did it repeatedly.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by catchweight on Sat 11 Nov - 23:32

You would hope that Ireland would aspire to be more than just a hard working and organised team.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Artful_Dodger on Sat 11 Nov - 23:51

The thing is, with the 2015 World Cup, we lost that Argentina game because of a passive drift defense. At least that defense was a massive part of it. The man responsible was Les Kiss and I've wondered ever since was his appointment at Ulster a case of the IRFU keeping him, but getting rid of him at the same time.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Sun 12 Nov - 0:05

Artful_Dodger wrote:The thing is, with the 2015 World Cup, we lost that Argentina game because of a passive drift defense.  At least that defense was a massive part of it.  The man responsible was Les Kiss and I've wondered ever since was his appointment at Ulster a case of the IRFU keeping him, but getting rid of him at the same time.

a passive drift defense was what let Argentina carve us up (so be it, certain teams just suddenly want to kill you with speed on a certain day - the famous England V France madcap game is a prime example)
... but it was our own inability to come back at them with fire of our own that downed us. They only won because they wanted to. We lost because we had nothing in the cupboard that we could use to meet them at their own game.
In order to play it a certain way, you gotta practice it so that all players know their roles when the shackles come off the more impact-happy blueprint. You have to practice it... quite a lot...in high end games; ie games of meaning and consequence. You have to have an altogether other pace and design to play to and practice it enough to make it a smooth running thing.
It's not a luxury. It's a necessity to be able to compete consistently highly through short but tough contests...and also to actually save central players from too many of the risks attached to impact driven rugby.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by wolfball on Sun 12 Nov - 4:11

SecretFly wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:The thing is, with the 2015 World Cup, we lost that Argentina game because of a passive drift defense.  At least that defense was a massive part of it.  The man responsible was Les Kiss and I've wondered ever since was his appointment at Ulster a case of the IRFU keeping him, but getting rid of him at the same time.

a passive drift defense was what let Argentina carve us up (so be it, certain teams just suddenly want to kill you with speed on a certain day - the famous England V France madcap game is a prime example)
... but it was our own inability to come back at them with fire of our own that downed us.  They only won because they wanted to.  We lost because we had nothing in the cupboard that we could use to meet them at their own game.  
In order to play it a certain way, you gotta practice it so that all players know their roles when the shackles come off the more impact-happy blueprint.  You have to practice it... quite a lot...in high end games; ie games of meaning and consequence.  You have to have an altogether other pace and design to play to and practice it enough to make it a smooth running thing.
It's not a luxury.  It's a necessity to be able to compete consistently highly through short but tough contests...and also to actually save central players from too many of the risks attached to impact driven rugby.

All fair enough, but has little enough relevance to todays match. I only saw the second half live, but just rewatched the whole thing and true SA made terrible decisions and skillset was dire at times, but we went wide fast constantly when it was on. We have often played too narrow, but its been getting a lot better. I see us as having 3 styles of play under Schmidt. First was the attritional kick based approach with low risk passes. Then it was the throw it wide constantly but using drift defense. We massively depended on the 6-10 axis working in a particular way (and Payne at 13) and when it didn't we were torn apart like in the RWC. Now we seem to have a proper aggressive defence combined with a good mix of wide play and kicking. Also a more than solid scrum and some speed in the backs. It is pretty exciting. Note we had two debutants and a home debutant playing today and all acquitted themselves well.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by George Carlin on Sun 12 Nov - 5:30

Excellent result and whilst I haven't seen the highlights yet, seemed like a cool and controlled performance. 

NZ Herald was impressed and they are a tough crowd.
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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by toml on Sun 12 Nov - 9:58

If Stockdale and Conway continue like that Earls will struggle to get back to 1st choice

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by carpet baboon on Sun 12 Nov - 10:44

What do we think about Stockdale starting at 15 against Fiji?

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by toml on Sun 12 Nov - 12:17

Well Bob Kearney won't be around for much longer and Jared Payne was back-up with Zebo there latterly. 3 options on their way out for 1 reason or another.

Options at 15 are:
Stockdale - Why Not
Conway - Not convinced aerially or Kicking
Carberry - Quite small, but very skilful
TOH - Joe isn't convinced, most others would give him a go
Ludik - Not a bad option, but not long term
Sweetnam? - Good in the air, ?experience
Gilroy - Defensively suspect, no form
Jordan Larmour - Not ready, excing prospect but short

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by toml on Sun 12 Nov - 12:18

Henshaw - Aki at 12 and Ringrose at 13 may mean he has to move back to 15?

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 12 Nov - 13:14

toml wrote:Well Bob Kearney won't be around for much longer and Jared Payne was back-up with Zebo there latterly. 3 options on their way out for 1 reason or another.

Options at 15 are:
Stockdale - Why Not
Conway - Not convinced aerially or Kicking
Carberry  - Quite small, but very skilful  
TOH - Joe isn't convinced, most others would give him a go
Ludik - Not a bad option, but not long term
Sweetnam? - Good in the air, ?experience
Gilroy - Defensively suspect, no form
Jordan Larmour - Not ready, excing prospect but short

I wouldn't count on it. Anyway, I would like to see Sweetnam play at 15 as well, he has the perfect skillset for the position. I have a feeling that Larmour will be seen as a 15 going forward as well. For now it should be TOH.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by profitius on Sun 12 Nov - 13:15

carpet baboon wrote:What do we think about Stockdale starting at 15 against Fiji?

He played there for the Ireland U20s and scored a lot of tries. He has a big boot on him too.

Conway regularly plays there for Munster and for a small man is good in the air.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by profitius on Sun 12 Nov - 13:19

The Great Aukster wrote:
It is hilarious that some posters think Ireland can be something other than a well organised hard working team!


Why not? In the last 3 years Glasgow, Scarlets and Connacht won the pro12 playing expansive attacking rugby. If they can do it, Ireland can do it.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Sun 12 Nov - 14:05

profitius wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
It is hilarious that some posters think Ireland can be something other than a well organised hard working team!


Why not? In the last 3 years Glasgow, Scarlets and Connacht won the pro12 playing expansive attacking rugby. If they can do it, Ireland can do it.


ShockedShocked

Less of the logic Prof!

Other International sides play it that way too and some of them do well too. Whistle

There is always an excuse that we don't got the players.... but that's a presumed indictment of the Provinces and I don't think they deserve the slur based on their exploits for the last 10 or 15 years.  We do have the players but like Decco Kidney once said with a sly smile on his lips.... 'we have our way of playing (International)'.
He seemed to think it was a secret weapon that could lay waste to enemy territory when given the go ahead.  It's a weapon okay - but boy do it shake. rattle and roll our players when they really stick their heads into it.

Maybe I'm not being overly enthusiastic about Ireland's performance yesterday because I've been here so many times before - promising domination, promising ruthlessness (some lovely stuff at the end to keep piling the pressure on a spent side)...promising new players.  But then it tends to slide away again and we get back to asking why so-and-so plays so well for his Province and then looks so rudderless or impotent in an Irish shirt.
I hope we'll finally get a nice rhythm and balance that will please all of us - some nice meaty defensive rituals on a regular basis but also some constant/consistent periods of speed, offload + evasion.  We mould the two sides of the coin together better and as I keep saying, we have something pretty lethal in International terms.  Ireland have always been missing an ingredient - and it's the silver spoon that mixes up the cheetah stuff with the rhino stuff on a consistent basis.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Hazel Sapling on Sun 12 Nov - 14:48

How much of the result was SA being poor vs Ireland being ruthless? Was this one where Ireland just had everything come off or did they have chances to make it worse?

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by carpet baboon on Sun 12 Nov - 14:49

Just because we don't argue enough........
Imagine you are asked by Joe to pick the backline for the next match, and imagine all current players are fit and in form.
What's your 9 to 11?

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Sun 12 Nov - 14:52

Hazel Sapling wrote:How much of the result was SA being poor vs Ireland being ruthless? Was this one where Ireland just had everything come off or did they have chances to make it worse?

It's one game down and everyone but everyone admits that SA weren't up for any kind of genuine International standard fight. So that's very much the question Hazel. How much of what was that game? The next few weeks will help us get closer to the answer...but the question might extend even into the start of the 6N. How good was that performance from Ireland? How good were the newbies - genuinely?
As always, we'll need a tougher examination to find out.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 12 Nov - 14:55

carpet baboon wrote:Just because we don't argue enough........
Imagine you are asked by Joe to pick the backline for the next match, and imagine all current players are fit and in form.
What's your 9 to 11?

9) Murray
10) Sexton
11) Stockdale

Easy enough. Wink

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Artful_Dodger on Sun 12 Nov - 15:04

I'd consider resting Sexton so he's good for the Argentina game. If we play Carbery at 10 though I'd want Murray inside him. Would keep Stockdale at 11.


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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Sun 12 Nov - 15:08

carpet baboon wrote:Just because we don't argue enough........
Imagine you are asked by Joe to pick the backline for the next match, and imagine all current players are fit and in form.
What's your 9 to 11?

9 to 15?

9 Marmion
10 Sexton
11 Stockdale
14 Byrne
15 Carbery

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by The Great Aukster on Sun 12 Nov - 16:13

profitius wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
It is hilarious that some posters think Ireland can be something other than a well organised hard working team!


Why not? In the last 3 years Glasgow, Scarlets and Connacht won the pro12 playing expansive attacking rugby. If they can do it, Ireland can do it.

Disagree Prof.
None of those sides were able to click with the expansive game right away. It was only with say 30+ games under their belt that it started to become successful. They also had closed squads and practice every week at a level with more time and less intensity. There simply wouldn't be the patience among fans or media for that strategy to reach fruition.
Eddie O'Sullivan tried to build a team that had the requisite 'muscle memory' to play expansive back moves, but was always scuppered over a series of games by injury. Kidney encouraged more individual expression, which worked for a while with the remnants of EOS' experienced team, but ultimately when that ran out - appeared clueless.
SA were poor but neither Eddie's not Deccie's teams would have won by that margin with so much inexperience.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by catchweight on Sun 12 Nov - 16:28

So much inexperience? That was a seasoned Ireland team with a couple of new wingers and centre.

South Africa were the team short on experience.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 12 Nov - 16:50

The Great Aukster wrote:
profitius wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
It is hilarious that some posters think Ireland can be something other than a well organised hard working team!


Why not? In the last 3 years Glasgow, Scarlets and Connacht won the pro12 playing expansive attacking rugby. If they can do it, Ireland can do it.

Disagree Prof.
None of those sides were able to click with the expansive game right away. It was only with say 30+ games under their belt that it started to become successful. They also had closed squads and practice every week at a level with more time and less intensity. There simply wouldn't be the patience among fans or media for that strategy to reach fruition.
Eddie O'Sullivan tried to build a team that had the requisite 'muscle memory' to play expansive back moves, but was always scuppered over a series of games by injury. Kidney encouraged more individual expression, which worked for a while with the remnants of EOS' experienced team, but ultimately when that ran out - appeared clueless.
SA were poor but neither Eddie's not Deccie's teams would have won by that margin with so much inexperience.

Not the best closing statement to support your claims, given that we will never actually know the answer to that. And please note that even Schmidt admits that the scoreline flattered Ireland, with 3 tries scored in the last 10 minutes.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Thomond on Sun 12 Nov - 18:14

Couldn't have asked for much more than that in terms of performance. Particularly magnificent try at the end to round the game out. Stander back on song while Stockdale has as much promise as any back three player we've produced in a long time. Sets us up for a grand Autumn series if nothing else

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by The Great Aukster on Sun 12 Nov - 18:23

Eddie didn't do inexperience - remember when he brought Reggie Corrigan out of retirement when Horan got injured!
Deccie OTOH dropped Jackson and Marshall into the deep end with no assimilation and to the shock of all commentators - who subsequently revelled in the schadenfreude.
The scoreline is the scoreline - a record (flattering or not) and based on Eddie's and Deccie's history it is not too big a leap to suggest that wouldn't have happened on their watch.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by carpet baboon on Sun 12 Nov - 19:11

Glad you all spotted my deliberate mistake.
Any way, my balls to the wall score more than them backline
9 Marion
10 carberry
11 Stockdale
12 Cho Cho stu
13 ringrose
14 sweetman/Byrne
15 TOH.

My slightly more safe option.

9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Stockdale
12 Aki/Choo Choo stu
13 ringrose
14 Conway
15 henshaw


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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 12 Nov - 19:52

I actually would give Carbery the reins at 10 against Fiji paired with McGrath at 9 for a bit of familiarity. Probably would need to keep a few of the experienced players in the backline though such as Henshaw and maybe even Rob at 15...

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Artful_Dodger on Sun 12 Nov - 20:59

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41961484

Iain Henderson is realising his potential as a true Test match enforcer for Ireland, says his second-row partner Devin Toner.

The Ulster powerhouse's bulldozing display helped Ireland thump South Africa 38-3 on Saturday in Dublin.

Henderson's highlights included running straight through Eben Etzebeth in the first half as Ireland earned their record win over the Springboks.

"Iain's a monster in the gym and a monster on the pitch," said Toner.

"He's turned into the enforcer he always had the potential to become.

"When you have someone who is the talisman of Etzebeth, he's their captain, he's renowned for being their physical man on the pitch.

"So when you see Hendy stand up to him and get the better of him, it's amazing. It's brilliant and it gives your team a real gee-up."

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Hazel Sapling on Sun 12 Nov - 22:34

Thank you Fly, for the synopsis. Saves me going through 2 pages

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by wolfball on Mon 13 Nov - 4:35

catchweight wrote:So much inexperience? That was a seasoned Ireland team with a couple of new wingers and centre.

South Africa were the team short on experience.

Not exactly seasoned when we had 8 of the 23 with fewer than 10 caps... The breakdown is below. We had a more experienced team than SA, but I suspect this is the least experienced team we put out against a Trinations team at home in the pro era.

Ireland backs average caps: 34
SA backs average caps: 15

Ireland forwards average caps: 48
SA forwards average caps: 43

Ireland bench average caps: 9
SA bench average caps: 12

Ireland 23 average caps: 41
SA 23 average caps: 30

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Gwlad on Mon 13 Nov - 7:08

Nice to see Ireland beat SA at something Very Happy

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by marty2086 on Mon 13 Nov - 10:13

profitius wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:What do we think about Stockdale starting at 15 against Fiji?

He played there for the Ireland U20s and scored a lot of tries. He has a big boot on him too.

Conway regularly plays there for Munster and for a small man is good in the air.


Stockdales boot is wonky though, his up and unders have a habit of going high and not very far and kicks to touch don't always get the distance they should

Plus he's not the best defensively, for all he did well he missed two tackles in the space of about 30 secs on Saturday

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 13 Nov - 12:02

Agree Marty, Stockdale is still learning the wing position at Ulster without messing about with fullback for Ireland. IMO Carberry will start at 15 against Fiji.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Mon 13 Nov - 12:06

I was thinking back over the game and just felt good about Ruddock getting on and doing some biz. I guess there are so many good players now across the Provinces that we all feel aren't getting their rightful shot and with a team only consisting still of 15 on the field at any one time, the number game is always going to leave people disappointed for certain players.
But I have always felt for Ruddock when oftentimes the International boys would be away on their jaunts and he would be back in the RDS holding the shop. Glad to see him involved.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 13 Nov - 12:11

SecretFly wrote:I was thinking back over the game and just felt good about Ruddock getting on and doing some biz.  I guess there are so many good players now across the Provinces that we all feel aren't getting their rightful shot and with a team only consisting still of 15 on the field at any one time, the number game is always going to leave people disappointed for certain players.  
But I have always felt for Ruddock when oftentimes the International boys would be away on their jaunts and he would be back in the RDS holding the shop.  Glad to see him involved.  

He's definitely the form pick at blindside flanker. He offers a lot more around the park than POM at the minute. In fact, Ruddock, van der Flier and Conan would have been my back row for this tour had all been fit and firing.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by geoff999rugby on Mon 13 Nov - 14:58

Leave Stockdale where he is, put Conway at 15 if you want to drop Kearney.

Biggest stat for me was SA had 30 minutes pressure in the 2nd half which resulted in no threat to the Ireland line.
What a thing to say about a, supposedly, top tier country.



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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Marshes on Mon 13 Nov - 15:09

Lads I'm not sure which of the Ulster posters had a bet with Eirebilly about Marmion being superceded by Cooney in the next year, but you'd have to admit Marmion was excellent when he came off the bench, didn't notice any loss of pace or control from Murray's departure and e had a hand in at least two of the last three tries.

Yes South Africa were tiring and the heads were dropping, but Ireland still went up the gears and I don't think the scoreline flattered. All the lads off the bench actually had big impacts.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by catchweight on Mon 13 Nov - 17:58

wolfball wrote:
catchweight wrote:So much inexperience? That was a seasoned Ireland team with a couple of new wingers and centre.

South Africa were the team short on experience.

Not exactly seasoned when we had 8 of the 23 with fewer than 10 caps... The breakdown is below. We had a more experienced team than SA, but I suspect this is the least experienced team we put out against a Trinations team at home in the pro era.

Ireland backs average caps: 34
SA backs average caps: 15

Ireland forwards average caps: 48
SA forwards average caps: 43

Ireland bench average caps: 9
SA bench average caps: 12

Ireland 23 average caps: 41
SA 23 average caps: 30

Thats pretty seasoned in my book. Granted the bench was inexperienfed. But there were 11 current or former lions in the starting team to go along with the debutants. I certainly dont think "so much inexperience in the side" is really applicable.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Mon 13 Nov - 18:40

Marshes wrote:Lads I'm not sure which of the Ulster posters had a bet with Eirebilly about Marmion being superceded by Cooney in the next year, but you'd have to admit Marmion was excellent when he came off the bench, didn't notice any loss of pace or control from Murray's departure and e had a hand in at least two of the last three tries.

Yes South Africa were tiring and the heads were dropping, but Ireland still went up the gears and I don't think the scoreline flattered. All the lads off the bench actually had big impacts.

Marmion, (and other players) - I'm sure with Joe's approval and guidance - was ready to change the tempo from the off, and that's exactly what he did.  No loss of pace but a dramatic injection of it.  Like I say, I think it was a code when he came on to other players to prepare some stuff they had been...well, planning for that endgame period. I don't think it was just players finding a different gear on their own...it was pre-planned to turn it up.  
I always like Marmion when he comes on, I think Joe respects the different qualities he brings to a team and so you know there'll be a chance of fireworks when he arrives.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Engine#4 on Tue 14 Nov - 1:05

SecretFly wrote:
Marshes wrote:Lads I'm not sure which of the Ulster posters had a bet with Eirebilly about Marmion being superceded by Cooney in the next year, but you'd have to admit Marmion was excellent when he came off the bench, didn't notice any loss of pace or control from Murray's departure and e had a hand in at least two of the last three tries.

Yes South Africa were tiring and the heads were dropping, but Ireland still went up the gears and I don't think the scoreline flattered. All the lads off the bench actually had big impacts.

Marmion, (and other players) - I'm sure with Joe's approval and guidance - was ready to change the tempo from the off, and that's exactly what he did.  No loss of pace but a dramatic injection of it.  Like I say, I think it was a code when he came on to other players to prepare some stuff they had been...well, planning for that endgame period.  I don't think it was just players finding a different gear on their own...it was pre-planned to turn it up.  
I always like Marmion when he comes on, I think Joe respects the different qualities he brings to a team and so you know there'll be a chance of fireworks when he arrives.

I like Marmion. He's more consistant than McGrath. Haven't seen enough of Ulster to know Cooney is in the frame but I find it hard to keep up with the latest from Ravenhill sometimes. Will Cooney soon leapfrog an underperforming Sexton or is that the other lad? Which of the Ulster centres is world class this year? And why is Henderson playing lock? He's obviously a 6.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 14 Nov - 9:10

Cooney is playing well enough to make the Irish squad instead of McGrath but definitely behind Marmion
No one at Ulster close to being an International 10
We haven't claimed any centre is World class but McCloskey has done well enough to get a game
Marshall has done well enough to make the squad
Henderson will be playing virtual all of the rest of his career at Lock

Hope the update helps Very Happy

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Pete330v2 on Tue 14 Nov - 9:55

Marshes wrote:Lads I'm not sure which of the Ulster posters had a bet with Eirebilly about Marmion being superceded by Cooney in the next year, but you'd have to admit Marmion was excellent when he came off the bench, didn't notice any loss of pace or control from Murray's departure and e had a hand in at least two of the last three tries.

Yes South Africa were tiring and the heads were dropping, but Ireland still went up the gears and I don't think the scoreline flattered. All the lads off the bench actually had big impacts.
Twas I

Yes Marmion did do well and did his part for the tries that were scored. The pace was raised against a side who were falling to bits on the pitch. It was a coup de grâce performed by an Irish side that in the past would have taken the foot off the throat at that stage. It was a joy to behold the new found ruthlessness that I hope is retained.
My bet with Billy is for either McGrath or Cooney to dislodge Marmion in 2 years. I still think one of them will although McGrath hasn't had a fantastic season so far. Billy's forfeit sounds like a lot of fun though so I'll not exactly be gutted if I lose.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Engine#4 on Tue 14 Nov - 11:10

geoff999rugby wrote:Cooney is playing well enough to make the Irish squad instead of McGrath but definitely behind Marmion
No one at Ulster close to being an International 10
We haven't claimed any centre is World class but McCloskey has done well enough to get a game
Marshall has done well enough to make the squad
Henderson will be playing virtual all of the rest of his career at Lock

Hope the update helps Very Happy

Thanks for the update! I feel all caught up. heart

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by SecretFly on Tue 14 Nov - 11:15

Small question...who took over Captaincy when Best went off?

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by marty2086 on Tue 14 Nov - 11:21

SecretFly wrote:Small question...who took over Captaincy when Best went off?

I wondered the same myself because some of the candidates, Sexton, Kearney, Murray and Henderson, ended up being replaced afterward so may have had a few captains after he went off

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 14 Nov - 16:46

Would it not have been Ruddock? He captained the summer tour and I feel that he may be the captain against Fiji this weekend.

I think he is a good candidate for the captaincy after Best - wasn't he the youngest captain we ever had when he was 20 or something? It seems to be a direct battle for the 6 shirt between himself and O'Mahony, and either of those two could be captain.

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Re: Ireland v South Africa - 11 Nov 5:30

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